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hugo The US is a democracy last time I checked. Let the people decide. I believe the majority WOULD want a ban on assault rifles, and don't see any justification for regular citizens needing assault rifles...any more than regular citizens need RPGs. So they should be banned. When it comes to a blanket ban, there's no denying that many people (including myself) see that as a positive step for public safety. But there are plenty of shooting, hunting etc groups that would be impacted. Once again - let the people decide. I can only speculate, but I don't think there would be the numbers for an outright ban in the US. So...there's no justification for NOT banning assault rifles merely because you fear a total ban might be put to the vote. Unless of course you fear democracy, and fear that the majority of Americans might want a total ban...?

(sent to me via email, for your discussion...) The speech George W. Bush SHOULD give: Normally, I start these things out by saying "My Fellow Americans." Not doing it this time. If the polls are any indication, I don't know who more than half of you are anymore. I do know something terrible has happened, and that you're really not fellow Americans any longer. I'll cut right to the chase here: I quit. Now before anyone gets all in a lather about me quitting to avoid impeachment, or to avoid prosecution or something, let me assure you: there's been no breaking of laws or impeachable offenses in this office. The reason I'm quitting is simple. I'm fed up with you people. I'm fed up because you have no understanding of what's really going on in the world. Or of what's going on in this once-great nation of ours. And the majority of you are too damned lazy to do your homework and figure it out. Let's start local. You've been sold a bill of goods by politicians and the news media. Polls show that the majority of you think the economy is in the tank. And that's despite record numbers of homeowners including record numbers of MINORITY homeowners. And while we're mentioning minorities, I'll point out that minority business ownership is at an all-time high. Our unemployment rate is as low as it ever was during the Clinton Administration. I've mentioned all those things before, but it doesn't seem to have sunk in. Despite the shock to our economy of 9/11, the stock market has rebounded to record levels and more Americans than ever are participating in these markets. Meanwhile, all you can do is whine about gas prices, and most of you are too damn stupid to realize that gas prices are high because there's increased demand in other parts of the world, and because a small handful of noisy idiots are more worried about polar bears and beachfront property than your economic security. We face real threats in the world. Don't give me this "blood for oil" thing. If I was trading blood for oil I would've already seized Iraq's oil fields and let the rest of the country go to hell. And don't give me this 'Bush Lied, People Died' crap either. If I was the liar you morons take me for, I could've easily had chemical weapons planted in Iraq so they could be 'discovered.' Instead, I owned up to the fact that the intelligence was faulty. Let me remind you that the rest of the world thought Saddam had the goods, same as me. Let me also remind you that regime change in Iraq was official US policy before I came into office. Some guy named 'Clinton' established that policy Bet you didn't know that, did you? You idiots need to understand that we face a unique enemy. Back during the cold war, there were two major competing political and economic models squaring off. We won that war, but we did so because fundamentally, the Communists wanted to survive, just as we do. We were simply able to outspend and out-tech them. That's not the case this time. The soldiers of our new enemy don't care if they survive. In fact, they want to die. That'd be fine, as long as they weren't also committed to taking as many of you with them as they can. But they are. They want to kill you. And the bastards are all over the globe. You should be grateful that they haven't gotten any more of us here in the United States since September 11. But you're not. That's because you've got no idea how hard a small number of intelligence, military, law enforcement and homeland security people have worked to make sure of that. When this whole mess started, I warned you that this would be a long and difficult fight. I'm disappointed how many of you people think a long and difficult fight amounts to a single season of 'Survivor'. Instead, you've grown impatient. You're incapable of seeing things through the long lens of history, the way our enemies do. You think that wars should last a few months, a few years, tops. Making matters worse, you actively support those who help the enemy. Every time you buy the New York Times, every time you send a donation to a cut-and-run Democrat's political campaign, well, dammit, you might just as well Fedex a grenade launcher to a Jihadist. It amounts to the same thing. In this day and age, it's easy enough to find the truth. It's all over the Internet. It just isn't on the pages of the New York Times or on NBC News. But even if it were, I doubt you'd be any smarter. Most of you would rather watch American Idol. I could say more about your expectations that the government will always be there to bail you out, even if you're too stupid to leave a city that's below sea level and has a hurricane approaching. I could say more about your insane belief that government, not your own wallet, is where the money comes from. But I've come to the conclusion that were I to do so, it would sail right over your heads. So I quit. I'm going back to Crawford. I've got an energy-efficient house down there (Al Gore could only dream) and the capability to be fully self-sufficient. No one ever heard of Crawford before I got elected, and as soon as I'm done here pretty much no one will ever hear of it again. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to die of old age before the last pillars of America fall. Oh, and by the way, Cheney's quitting too. That means Pelosi is your new President. You asked for it. Watch what she does carefully, because I still have a glimmer of hope that there're just enough of you remaining who are smart enough to turn this thing around in 2008. So that's it. God bless what's left of America. Some of you know what I mean.

I think many of these scientists should get a real job, so they don't have to sponge millions of our govts for research into their latest scare story.

hugo It's already a balancing act - there are some weapons allowed...others not. So we have to look at each item on it's merits, and the question remains - for what reason do regular American citizens need assault rifles? Paranoia about the banning of all guns isn't a valid answer. The justification used to ban assault rifles does not necessarily apply to many other weapons.

Komrade Actually...first it was cooling, now warming. Sometimes it pays to learn from history - and the panic that ensued in the 70's when we were told our planet was entering another ice age. I recall being told by scientific experts in the 80's that the world would completely run out of oil in 10 years. I recall being told by scientific experts that humans used to be monkeys, chipmunks, tadpoles etc too...but that's a WHOLE other discussion.

hugo Actually no. Australia had a declining rate of gun deaths - that was rapidly accelerated the year the gun laws were introduced. Australia has one of the highest rates of suicide in the world - and has for years. Not sure why people revert to guns when there are far easier, less-violent methods. Yet it does bring up the point that someone who is considering suicide, and has ready access to a gun, can top themselves quickly. Someone who doesn't have easy access to a gun has to put some thought into how they'll do it - and by the time they've put that thought in, there's a chance they'll have reconsidered, or the immediate cause of their angst may have passed. Ditto for any number of other situations - car incidents, domestic clashes etc - if there's a gun involved, instantly someone can be killed without thought or consideration - in the heat of the moment. I don't buy into that scaremongering. There'll be no repeat of Hitler so long as we have freedom of the press. You'll get ample warning before there could be another Hitler, and be able to take action to stop it.

jhony Sounds like we're finding some middle ground. Given the entrenched gun culture in the US, and the massive number of weapons, probably the best that can be hoped for is a minimisation of damage by tighter regulations on the types of weapons available. A ban on assault rifles, automatic weapons etc would be a good start, and might help stop some of mass killings that society wants stopped.

jhony Did you know that repeating a lie - however many times - still doesn't make it true? The BS "if guns are outlawed, only criminals will have guns" has obviously been tatooed on your brain. Hence I encouraged you to check your facts. I live in Australia - gun crime are virtually unheard of. Can you even imagine what that's like - living in a country where guns deaths are a very rare occurence? Short term you might be right. It will take a time to get all the guns in, and criminals will hold onto theirs the longest. Give it 10-20 years, and you'll have a completely different culture though. One where nancy-boys don't need to hide behind guns because the criminals don't have guns. One where a gun death is a major deal because they're such a rare event. HANG ON...aren't you the coward, pussy, chicken shit MF that's HIDING behind a gun?!??!? Bwahahahahahah - you make me laugh dude. Only someone weak needs a weapon, and when you need to revert to a gun then you're just a little girl in my eyes. As for killing someone - no...even if they broke into my house, I see no need to kill someone. The last 2 times someone tried to get into my house, I confronted them man-to-man, and both situations ended peacefully. How would my life be now if I was a scared little coward who pulled out a gun and killed those 2 people? I'd be a lower form of scum than them. There's a chance of a nuclear weapon hitting my city too...but I'm no bunker-builder. My life is focused on living, not obsessed with panic, fear, insecurity and trying to plan for the rarest of situations that might happen. A fully alarmed house means the police might be 7 minutes away, but I'm about 30 seconds away from the break-in, and my neighbours (baseball-bat wielding Romanians and Italians) are about 2 minutes away. The intruder has no chance, and no-one will die. That's just fear-mongering to try and justify why you feel the need to hide behind a gun in your house. Purpose of a car: Transport. Importance to the country, citizens, economy: Huge. Relative deaths to utility value: Low. Purpose of a gun: To kill things. Importance to the country: Beyond police and army, very low importance. Relative deaths to utility value: Off the scale. Compare apples with apples dude.

jhony5 Wow - that's really sad man. I wonder what permanent damage you do to the psyche of a child teaching them to kill things at such a young age? Nothing wrong with hunting mind you (although 7yo??), but if you're teaching her about shooting and killing people then you have some issues to deal with - I'd call it parental abuse personally. Given that you feel a need to carry weapons there is some case on the grounds of safety for teaching your kid where the weapons are, and that they are never to touch them - ever. But beyond that? At 7 years of age? Time to check yourself dude. You are part of the problem - not the solution. It's precisely BECAUSE people think they need to pack guns that there are people packing guns!! I mean this isn't rocket science. Get rid of the guns, and you don't need guns to defend against guns. Sheesh! I gave 2 examples. Where you are at the moment, chances are the intruder has a gun...you have a gun...and death is quite likely. Move to a more educated/civilised society where guns are in the hands of people who actually need them, and chances are the intruder doesn't have a gun, and neither do you. Far less likely for deaths to result. I think we dispelled that myth earlier. In Australia we were told EXACTLY the same thing by the gun lobby. We outlawed guns, and guess what? Gun crimes have dropped, gun deaths have dropped - we don't have criminals armed with guns out roaming the streets. Time to apply some grey matter to the propoganda slogans you've had rammed into your head from birth. You'll find many of them (like this one) could be better used to fertilise your garden. The children are already alerted. I am big on home security - every door and window has an alarm sensor which is regularly tested. So if someone breaks in, the cops know about it immediately, and the alarm in the house alerts my family and neighbours (who do respond). This is a peaceful way of ensuring that an intruder won't stick around long - if they dare enter at all. Actually, since I live in a country where guns are outlawed, there's very little chance at all that he has a gun. Most I'd have to contend with is a knife, but remember the police are already on their way. So you'd kill someone who wanted to steal your stereo? I don't see it like that. Chances are the dude is messed up on drugs, and simply trying to pay for his habit. He doesn't want violence, doesn't want to hurt anyone, just wants the quickest easiest cash source he can find. Does he deserve death for being a junkie? I don't think so. I'd rather give him the stereo and wave him goodbye. Insurance works well. But you'd shoot someone over a simple theft? Bravo. The big picture isn't VA Tech - the big picture is 30,000 dead Americans which you're smugly prepared to write-off as acceptable losses because you like to pack a gun.

I think we should all panic IMMEDIATELY. The world is in crisis due to our polluting ways, and soon will be inhospitable due to GLOBAL COOLING. Yes - Global Cooling. Read all about the panic from Time magazine: http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,944914,00.html

I appreciate your distinction between atheists and anti-theists. Unfortunately, I think too many atheists get tarred by the same brush as the anti-theists. Most atheists I know are happy in their own beliefs, aren't hateful of christians, and adopt a "live and let live" approach to life. I agree about the militancy and religious zeal of the anti-theists. They are more "fundamentalist" than any religion, blinkering their beliefs by science alone - and the prevailing scientific fashions of the day. Their inner anger, self loathing, clear frustration and bitter venting speaks of personal issues far deeper than the superficial shadowboxing over religion. When you encounter an anti-theist, I don't think it's worth wasting your time trying to debate. You will eventually win the debate, but will have achieved nothing because they will remain close-minded, and you'll have only hardened their resentment. Let them go on their way, and save your pearls of wisdom for people that are prepared to consider all possibilities, and look at the world unblinkered, ready to learn.

hugo Figures from 2001, and some interesting observations: http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000473.html And sorry, but I'm going with the University study - not some study done by a couple of gun advocates (undoubtedly NRA funded):

jhony And if your daughter is one of the thousands killed each year because she touched your gun, or it malfunctioned, or it went off while you were transporting it/changing bullets/cleaning it etc? You'd probably have a greater chance of her being shot by you, than being assaulted on the way to school. The only difference is you'd have no-one to blame but yourself. Perhaps - but what kind of world is it you're creating? If the decisions everyone made are based purely on self defence, then we could all stroll around with a pitbull in one hand, and a semi-auto in the other. But there's always someone with a bigger, better weapon who can gun, or bomb you down. It's a never-ending cycle. In Britain they've got a camera on every corner with microphones, and now speakers - for self defence. So every movement you make is recorded, much of what you say is being listened to, and soon you'll be getting told what to do as you move around. In both cases above - the CURE is far worse than the illness!! What kind of sick, unstable and unhealthy societies are you creating? On the US side, you've created one where gun deaths are a part of life, crime is out of control, and violence is considered the solution to everything. On the British side, civil liberties have been thrown out the window, and they're rapidly moving towards a real Big Brother scenario. Did you ever consider that an unarmed assailant might be much easier to stop than one that's armed? Chances are that guy breaking in has a gun too. Now your whole family is at risk from both your erratic shooting to stop the intruder, and his blasting away at anything that moves. Great solution. Good news! I live in Australia! So there's very little chance the intruder has a gun. That means I can stop him. First priority - get my family out. Second - call the Police. Third - stop the guy. We had a peeping tom in the neighbourhood - I went out and chased him down until I had him cornered, and then called the cops. Another time I had an armed (with knife) robber hiding from police in my front yard. He'd just robbed a place. I went out and confronted him and he bolted - the Police were again right on his tail. If he had a gun, or I had a gun, we would've almost certainly ended up with dead people. And in these cases above, because of strict gun laws, no-one needed to die. Most burglaries are by druggies looking for cash, or things they can sell. If one breaks into your house, give them what you have, and they'll move on. If they have guns and you have guns, the problem just gets much, much worse. Yes! These people are trained to use their weapons - trained not to over-react. Trained to use other methods before using their weapons. Trained to be level-headed in a crisis. Yes - the police are the right people to deal with criminals. That's correct. I don't see anyone arguing for greater gun control simply because of school shootings. It's the 30,000 dead Americans that is the reason. Iraq looks like a kindergarten compared to what you gun-toting Americans do to each other - in your own country - each year! Well...yeah. Let the people decide though - there needs to be a free debate in the US, and it's a democracy. If given all the facts and figures, the American people decide that 30,000 dead Americans is a reasonable price to pay so that some people can hunt...then so be it. But at the moment the NRA has their hands around the throat of your govt, media, and society. Politicians fear to speak against them for fear of the NRA attack dog launching into them. It's a sad state of affairs.

SBHDYBH Our time on Earth is but a blink of an eye compared with eternity. For people to have sinned and died on Earth in the Old Testament, is nothing in comparison to the free gift God granted to everyone - eternal life. As for the Bible, which bits to read, which bits to interpret. Well, you need to read the whole thing. Try and experiment - pick up a book that you haven't read before. Open up a page, and read a couple of sentences. Now - would you go an start praising or insulting the book based on what you've read? Would you claim to know about it? Not if you're a reasonable person. You need to read the whole thing, and THEN you'll get how it fits together. You'll realise that it isn't contradictory at all - despite the myth some people propogate. In fact it's beautifully written, and a rich tapestry of history, teaching and wisdom. I too am pleased that God is active in your life, enough to drive you back here again and again, until hopefully the penny drops...