Joe87

Divorce rate over 50% (in America), culture changing the nuclear family is now the minority of households. I don't think any one aims to be a single mother, and like I said the social system must first explore options with job training, job placement, livible minimum wage, and then finally welfare. I realy think the way sexuality is taught is just bad. You need to teach contraception better, safe sex rather then abstinece because it aint happening. Really need to look at the swedish system because it works, they have lowest teen birth rate, HIV rate, poverty rate, and have one of the most generous and extensive social net systems in the world. I don't believe making the society a fend for your self society does any good, as history has taught us. Thats the way 3rd world countries are. And the HUGE waste of money we are talking billions on corporations is constantly overlooked. What would you have us do, let the children starve to death. Lets face it for a rich western society you rate extremely low on all measures of a good society, so why sink deeper and take away the social net you already have.

Oh please first of all, the family structure was destroyed by big government, you realize that for the first 30 years or so of immigration it was highly unlikely the entire family could immigrate, usually only the man, saves money sends some home, saves up to sponsor and reunite his family, which is still relatively common today. If you are suggesting welfare encourages single mothers, thats a joke, very few choose to be single mothers. A lot of welfare recipiants are also white trailor trash (majority actually), who keeps up a "family structure", explain that rationale, that the family is the be all end all of the economy when clearly the market doesn't reflect as much. E.g. daycare workers, teachers, support for families are a joke and prioities seem to be on entertainment and sports. I would also like to point out that it is highly common among conservatives to attack the poor little guy. Like welfare is really anything to live on, you can barely get by, never mind raising a family, what if you have a disability. And if you read original post that lead us to argue social system, I would like to point out direct fincial assistance is last resort, we should help them find a job first and foremost. What I can't understand is why the attacks on the poor when Exxon is being subsidized millions when they can easily afford the taxes, and clearing billions in profits. Why should highly profitible business get the breaks, and this is not the only case, so many incidences where we just ignore billions that directly effect the economy and cost to society is extremely high, but heaven forbid a disabled person gets 100 a week. Perhaps because these white collar crimes are committed by the well to do with political power, even when their crimes hurt society much more greatly they are granted a slap on the wrist, and assistance...

Oh also I believe I can explain why immigrants do better then lets say poor blacks. Basically the way immigration is set up that the only immigrants who really get it are highly educated, urbanized, and some times already wealthy immigrants. Also as a group first enters a country they form a self reliant niche with one another e.g. chinese restaurant / dry cleaners, as they move up socio-economic status they move on to real estate etc... With going to business with one another they help each other out, the black community is far too large to use this type of method. Look at the way things were set up as well, a culture of slavery (and obviously impoverished), versus highly educated tightly nit group of immigrants. It's all very interesting I suggest you take a sociology course or 2.

Strange, in every case where welfare is expanded e.g. Europe, Canada crime is lower... You can't exactly get welfare committing crimes, the majority of welfare collects are single mothers who work part time, yet they are treated as second class citizens. You really have a false sterotype here on welfare collectors, It is rather difficult to obtain support, and people perfer to work due to stigma and invasivness attached with welfare. Having poor mothers unable to provide a decent life for their children leads to crimes. It is well known education in inner cities is of a poorer quality, as well the attitude of the poor towards education is bad, cyclical function difficult to get out of. Decriminlization of drugs won't decrease crime it will increase it, perhaps legalization will decrease it, decriminzation basically means you can have a certain amount on you without being charged, so while still illegal to supply, it is legal to consume, more customers still illegal suppliers... You know what happens when demand goes up, price goes up, allure of illegal sellings of drugs goes up, doesn't help the economy one bit. Legalization is what I hope you meant. What decriminzation does do is lessen the strain on the legal system, so as not to be tied up with many posession crimes.

The point I really am trying to get across is that this aproach to security as well as justice system really doesn't accomplish anything. America probably has toughest laws in the western world, highest jailed population percentage (10 times higher percent than Canada), yet 2 times higher crime rate. The simple reasoning for your justice system, is jail the criminals and you have law abiding citizens left. So whats the problem? Do you have a birth defect? No i really think the problem is that you fail to adress the social issues that contribute to the onset of crime. Let me speak first of domestic problem. America has a huge gap between rich and poor for a western society, social system is collapsing, medical system is a joke if you can't afford it, minimum wage full time is under the poverty line. Essentially opportunities in the inner cities are highly limited, so crime is often the solution. Perhaps with a better social security system, jobs training for at risk youth, job programs for inner cities etc... Would reduce crime significantly. But the system is narrow... You see criminals people who are "evil", best be removed. Are they born this way? No... So why are blacks / hispanics more prone to drug dealings, simply lack of other opportunites, bad neighbourhoods that are stigmatized. Now international. I have to say American foriegn policy is atrocious, You are trying to be the policemen of the world (well if it effects you). In the past you've installed puppet regimes, organized / began wars between 2 or more other nations and generally exploited every non western country economically. And you wonder why every one hates America. Trying to install democracy in high conflict / economically battered places isn't going to do anything, look at Africa. Take your oil, I hope the blood on your hands is worth it.

Insofar Arab-Americans have been painted with the same brush as Al Queda members. Afterall they are Americans too, and after 9/11 I believe 99% of them thought that was a terrible to do. The Qu'ran teaches peace and love for your fellow man, Innocent killings is strictly prohibited. What one must realize is that the the moves of terrorists are much more based on geo-political climate rather than race / religion, while massively off base but well presented interpretation of the Qu'ran present justification, I believe only strict followers of Al Queda would adhere (Generally disadvantaged young males).

Okay conspirisy theory boy... When looking at disease research the vast majority is done by the U.S., and the focus is on diseases that effect the U.S. (for example while TB still a major killer today, isn't really being paid attention to). Its all about money, medical research is extremely expensive and the U.S. is one of the few who can front the bill to pay for it.

I believe most of the debate lies with mexico, illegal immigration / cheap labour. As far as arab immigration goes, it is exceptionally tough to get accepted as a landed immigrant coming from an arab nation. While not admitted there is obvious racial profiling going on. I can't tell you how often I get stopped for "random checks" while in the US, border crossing is a big prooblem as well... The utter phobia of arabs is profound, what do you expect after 5 years of fear mongoring, hell a Dubai company couldn't make an investment in America without a huge riot, which caused them to back out. So the question isn't so much the immigration itself, but what liberties and freedoms should be granted to law abiding arab citizens / immigrants.

The geopolitical conflicts of Iraq can not sustain a democracy. I am from Iraq, and for the past 50 years or so it has been a bloody coupe after a bloody coupe, with a power struggle among different groups. I truly think the arbitirary borders given by the british (British purposely made a country full of groups who hate one another to more easily rule over them). The reason Turkey works is simply because they are a united peoples, and the enstillment of values by the young turks who shaped future political thought. The idea that a race of people are too "stupid" to form a type of government is an arrogant elitist and fallicious idea.

Typical American arrogance. Its easy to blame Canada rather then looking at what was the onset of terrorism in the first place. I suppose Arabs are just evil poeple who hate freedom, and kill eagles daily while defecating on bibles. Canadian access made it easy for revenege! Perhaps if you were able to think about anything more complicated then conservative rhetoric you would see your error.

Insofar I believe this thread has gone all over the place, good arguments / points raised that are easily over shadowed by the cat fight of lethal / manic. I really hate it when perfectly intelligent people (especially women) start attacking one another from apperance to sex life. As to the issue of Canadian immigration. I being a Canadian myself can tell you I don't believe Harper wasn't voted in (minority government) due to the issue of terrorist immigrants, rather corruption of liberals, and their overall badly planned campaign. Harper ran a good campaign I must admit. I would like to pose the question though, I realize immigration laws are a little lax, but I would ask how would we reform them. Would you have us examine their religion, race, idelolgy, etc... Leading to a witch hunt with bad results. As for myself I have a middle eastern background (Iraq specifically), also I am law abiding, and there are many middle eastern people who are law abiding as well, vast majority in fact. And we have generally been successful in this western society, so to begin racial and religous profiling would be a crime. Perhaps instead of persecuting a whole race of people, we can examine our foriegn policy, lead to the why and the how to change... It's like WWII, the Germans weren't evil people, the result of extermism came with the horrendous treatment post WWI, battered economy, repirations, and general exploitation of the victorious allies. I believe a proactive policy would be much more effective then a reactive one, as we see the cost of war is amazing, but social reform is beneficial and humane...

Looking in on this "debate" I am rather ashamed. It seems people would rather throw out sterotypes and attack peoples character then have an actual debate, with logical thought, and proper arguments. You know things with premises and logical conclusions... I am a former muslim, though I hold respect for the faith. I understand there being dissent, the undertones and the depth of this problem is profound and difficult to fully lay out. So I will go to both sides of the argument American side / western side Looking and some of the proclaimation of Al queda and Iran shockingly resembles Nazi germany claims. Children and citizens alike of muslim dictatorships live in fear and are held under an iron fist. A standoff similar to the cold war seems invetible. A delcine similar to the British Empire seems to be already happening. How would lets say China rule, with its much lower standard of moral practice. Muslim / rest of world America and the west has explotied countries far too long. Using military might and political clout in order to maintain the unrealistic life styles of Americans while starving the rest. You realize the reason there have been and continue to be violence and unrest in poor countries is because the emprial powers laid out borders in a way where conflicting tribes / peoples would be side by side and the unrest allowed for easier rule as they can play them (tribes/peoples) off one another. The economics of a global system have been put forward such that poor countries sell their raw materials for pennies and pay high prices for finished goods. As well while governments were being established high intrest loans were given to poorer countries making government spendning of these once resource rich countries geared more towards debt thier the welfare of their people, with intrest the debts aren't disappearing only mounting. America owes about 17 trillon dollars but no one is calling in because if they would, the world economy would collapse, whereas countries like Argentina must devalue their currency (thereby destroying their economy and ruining peoples savings) in order to pay the debt. The middle east decided to fight back, with organization like OPEC to make sure oil is fairly sold. They decided they wouldn't put up with America installing puppet regimes. And displacing poeples who lived on land for centuries in order to make a Jewish nations which was on baseless arguments with amnesty built up from the holocaust. For America continuingly fighting for the rights of corporations (oil), spending 300 billion on the war in Iraq. To illistrate my point I shall draw out what happended in Gulf War I. Basically Desert shield / storm was brought on after Iraq decided it would reclaim former Iraqi soil. America only pushed to the point where its oil intrests (Kuwait oil) were secured leaving thousands in disarray and destruction. Now where the Qu'ran (Not Koran, I can't tell you how much that pisses me off) is invovled allow me to tell you that this "brain washing" is purely political and Islam is merely used by charismatic leaders putting verses out of context, convienent interpretations etc... (E.X. Jihad is actually the holy war within oneself to find your path to god (inner struggle of spirit). The religion of Islam is actually one that preaches peace, love, understanding and clean living. Relgion and politics have been invovled for centuries, religion has been used as a tool for politics for just as long, from the crusaudes to 9/11. I really think Mamood (Iranian president) genuinely cares for his peolpe and wants the best for them. He has many great social ideas, but faced with Americans he feels he needs nukes to be safe, works for North Korea. On a final note Americans... If you are willing to use atrocious methods in order to maintain your values and freedoms, are you no better then the terrorists themselves. After all america started out as freedom fighters or to the british, terrorists...