Air Traffic Safety So Bad Its Classified

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Patriot Games

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303841,00.html

NASA Refuses to Disclose Air Safety Survey
Monday, October 22, 2007

MOFFETT FIELD, Calif. - Anxious to avoid upsetting air travelers, NASA is
withholding results from an unprecedented national survey of pilots that
found safety problems like near collisions and runway interference occur far
more frequently than the government previously recognized.

NASA gathered the information under an $8.5 million safety project, through
telephone interviews with roughly 24,000 commercial and general aviation
pilots over nearly four years. Since ending the interviews at the beginning
of 2005 and shutting down the project completely more than one year ago, the
space agency has refused to divulge the results publicly.

Just last week, NASA ordered the contractor that conducted the survey to
purge all related data from its computers.

The Associated Press learned about the NASA results from one person familiar
with the survey who spoke on condition of anonymity because this person was
not authorized to discuss them.

A senior NASA official, associate administrator Thomas S. Luedtke, said
revealing the findings could damage the public's confidence in airlines and
affect airline profits. Luedtke acknowledged that the survey results
"present a comprehensive picture of certain aspects of the U.S. commercial
aviation industry."

The AP sought to obtain the survey data over 14 months under the U.S.
Freedom of Information Act.

"Release of the requested data, which are sensitive and safety-related,
could materially affect the public confidence in, and the commercial welfare
of, the air carriers and general aviation companies whose pilots
participated in the survey," Luedtke wrote in a final denial letter to the
AP. NASA also cited pilot confidentiality as a reason, although no airlines
were identified in the survey, nor were the identities of pilots, all of
whom were promised anonymity.

Among other results, the pilots reported at least twice as many bird
strikes, near mid-air collisions and runway incursions as other government
monitoring systems show, according to a person familiar with the results who
was not authorized to discuss them publicly.

The survey also revealed higher-than-expected numbers of pilots who
experienced "in-close approach changes" - potentially dangerous, last-minute
instructions to alter landing plans.

Officials at the NASA Ames Research Center in California have said they want
to publish their own report on the project by year's end.

"If the airlines aren't safe I want to know about it," said Rep. Brad
Miller, R-N.C., chairman of the House Science and Technology investigations
and oversight subcommittee. "I would rather not feel a false sense of
security because they don't tell us."

Discussing NASA's decision not to release the survey data, the congressman
said: "There is a faint odor about it all."

Miller asked NASA last week to provide his oversight committee with
information on the survey and the decision to withhold data.

"The data appears to have great value to aviation safety, but not on a shelf
at NASA," he wrote to NASA's administrator Michael Griffin.

The survey's purpose was to develop a new way of tracking safety trends and
problems the airline industry could address. The project was shelved when
NASA cut its budget as emphasis shifted to send astronauts to the moon and
Mars.

NASA said nothing it discovered in the survey warranted notifying the
Federal Aviation Administration immediately. Its data showed improvements in
some areas, the person who was familiar with the survey said. Survey
managers occasionally briefed the FAA during the project. At a briefing in
April 2003, FAA officials expressed concerns about the high numbers of
incidents being described by pilots because the NASA results were
dramatically different from what FAA was getting from its own monitoring
systems.

An FAA spokeswoman, Laura Brown, said the agency questioned NASA's
methodology. The FAA is confident it can identify safety problems before
they lead to accidents, she said.

In its space program, NASA has a deadly history of playing down safety
issues. Investigators blamed the 1986 and 2000 shuttle disasters on poor
decision making, budget cuts and improperly minimizing risks. NASA decided
to go ahead with a 2006 shuttle launch and is moving ahead with one this
week despite safety concerns by NASA engineers in both cases.

Aviation experts said NASA's pilot survey results could be a valuable
resource in an industry where they believe many safety problems are
underreported, even while deaths from commercial air crashes are rare and
the number of deadly crashes has dropped in recent years.

"It gives us an awareness of not just the extent of the problems, but
probably in some cases that the problems are there at all," said William
Waldock, a safety science professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
in Phoenix, Ariz. "If their intent is to just let it sit there, that's just
a waste."

Officials involved in the survey touted the unusually high response rate
among pilots, 80 percent, and said they believe it is more reliable than
other reporting systems that rely on pilots to voluntarily report incidents.

"The data is strong," said Robert Dodd, an aviation safety expert hired by
NASA to manage the survey. "Our process was very meticulously designed and
very thorough. It was very scientific."

Pilot interviews lasted about 30 minutes, with standardized questions about
how frequently they encountered equipment problems, smoke or fire, engine
failure, passenger disturbances, severe turbulence, collisions with birds or
inadequate tower communication, according to documents obtained by the AP.

Pilots also were asked about last-minute changes in landing instructions,
flying too close to other planes, near collisions with ground vehicles or
buildings, overweight takeoffs or occasions when pilots left the ****pit.

The survey, known officially as the National Aviation Operations Monitoring
Service, started after a White House commission in 1997 proposed reducing
fatal air crashes by 80 percent as of this year. Crashes have dropped 65
percent, with a rate of about 1 fatality in about 4.5 million departures.

NASA had begun to interview general aviation pilots and initially planned to
interview flight attendants, air traffic controllers and mechanics before
the survey was halted.

In earlier interviews that helped researchers design the NASA survey, pilots
said airlines were unaware how frequently safety incidents occurred that
could lead to serious problems or even crashes, said Jon Krosnick, a survey
expert at Stanford University who helped NASA create the questionnaire.
Krosnick also led a Stanford team that paid for a joint AP-Stanford poll on
the environment.

"There are little things going on everyday that rarely lead to an accident
but they increase the chances of an accident," said Krosnick. "It's the
little things beneath the surface that cause the very infrequent crashes.
You have to tackle those."

NASA directed its contractor Battelle Memorial Institute, along with
subcontractors, on Thursday to return any project information and then purge
it from their computers before Oct. 30.
 
On Oct 22, 7:44 am, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303841,00.html
>
> NASA Refuses to Disclose Air Safety Survey
> Monday, October 22, 2007
>


Reminds me of a job interview I had at a company back in 1992.
I've forgotten their name but it was up around Route 128 somewhere
in the Boston area and had the contract to redo the aging air traffic
control software.

I had a good interview, had the background they needed, talked to
several
of the programmers and managers. There were HUNDREDS of software
engineers working on air traffic control software, I had never worked
in a company this big.

I figured I had a chance but they were vague about a follow up
interview, just the old "expect us to contact you in about a week,
maybe". As I headed down the long corridor to the exit, I remembered
that I had left my coat on a chair in the "human resources" office and
immediately turned around and walked back in.

That's when I noticed 6 huge 5 foot high stacks of folders and
resume's lying on the floor next to the filing cabinets. As I walked
back I heard the human resources gal
say "what should I do with this resume, the filing cabinets are
full". She was standing right next to the trash bin.

It was clear that even back then, outsourcing must have been uppermost
on management's minds in those happy pre 9-11 days. They were going
to **** can most of the local software engineer applications obviously
because the salary demands and requirements for company health care
and benefits could be bypassed by going for foreigners who worked dirt
cheap in those days in order to get in on a cool project.

By now, all those skilled native engineers, like me, have "gone
elsewhere" and maybe it is not such a great idea anymore to hire
foreign programmers for air traffic control systems which have
national defense and security implications.

Was all this so that management could have even FATTER paychecks,
bonuses and benefits?? Think about it next time you're taking off or
landing at a crowded urban area airport.

Citizen Jimserac
 
"Citizen Jimserac" <Jimserac@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193057387.880176.47660@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 22, 7:44 am, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:
>> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303841,00.html
>>
>> NASA Refuses to Disclose Air Safety Survey
>> Monday, October 22, 2007
>>

>
> Reminds me of a job interview I had at a company back in 1992.
> I've forgotten their name but it was up around Route 128 somewhere
> in the Boston area and had the contract to redo the aging air traffic
> control software.
>
> I had a good interview, had the background they needed, talked to
> several
> of the programmers and managers. There were HUNDREDS of software
> engineers working on air traffic control software, I had never worked
> in a company this big.
>
> I figured I had a chance but they were vague about a follow up
> interview, just the old "expect us to contact you in about a week,
> maybe". As I headed down the long corridor to the exit, I remembered
> that I had left my coat on a chair in the "human resources" office and
> immediately turned around and walked back in.
>
> That's when I noticed 6 huge 5 foot high stacks of folders and
> resume's lying on the floor next to the filing cabinets. As I walked
> back I heard the human resources gal
> say "what should I do with this resume, the filing cabinets are
> full". She was standing right next to the trash bin.
>
> It was clear that even back then, outsourcing must have been uppermost
> on management's minds in those happy pre 9-11 days. They were going
> to **** can most of the local software engineer applications obviously
> because the salary demands and requirements for company health care
> and benefits could be bypassed by going for foreigners who worked dirt
> cheap in those days in order to get in on a cool project.
>
> By now, all those skilled native engineers, like me, have "gone
> elsewhere" and maybe it is not such a great idea anymore to hire
> foreign programmers for air traffic control systems which have
> national defense and security implications.
>
> Was all this so that management could have even FATTER paychecks,
> bonuses and benefits?? Think about it next time you're taking off or
> landing at a crowded urban area airport.
>
> Citizen Jimserac


And to think that you have been advocating the same kind of situation for
the healthcare field. <G>


--
I've got a whole new outlook on life. If the kids want to foot the bills,
hell, I'll take all the
government handouts they want to force on me. Who says being a senior
citizen is tough?
Listen up kids, hang in there. Work, work, work. Millions of senior citizens
are counting on you!

http://www.reason.com/

JC
 
On Oct 22, 9:32 am, "JC" <dontbot...@imouttatown.net> wrote:
> "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193057387.880176.47660@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Oct 22, 7:44 am, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303841,00.html

>
> >> NASA Refuses to Disclose Air Safety Survey
> >> Monday, October 22, 2007

>
> > Reminds me of a job interview I had at a company back in 1992.
> > I've forgotten their name but it was up around Route 128 somewhere
> > in the Boston area and had the contract to redo the aging air traffic
> > control software.

>
> > I had a good interview, had the background they needed, talked to
> > several
> > of the programmers and managers. There were HUNDREDS of software
> > engineers working on air traffic control software, I had never worked
> > in a company this big.

>
> > I figured I had a chance but they were vague about a follow up
> > interview, just the old "expect us to contact you in about a week,
> > maybe". As I headed down the long corridor to the exit, I remembered
> > that I had left my coat on a chair in the "human resources" office and
> > immediately turned around and walked back in.

>
> > That's when I noticed 6 huge 5 foot high stacks of folders and
> > resume's lying on the floor next to the filing cabinets. As I walked
> > back I heard the human resources gal
> > say "what should I do with this resume, the filing cabinets are
> > full". She was standing right next to the trash bin.

>
> > It was clear that even back then, outsourcing must have been uppermost
> > on management's minds in those happy pre 9-11 days. They were going
> > to **** can most of the local software engineer applications obviously
> > because the salary demands and requirements for company health care
> > and benefits could be bypassed by going for foreigners who worked dirt
> > cheap in those days in order to get in on a cool project.

>
> > By now, all those skilled native engineers, like me, have "gone
> > elsewhere" and maybe it is not such a great idea anymore to hire
> > foreign programmers for air traffic control systems which have
> > national defense and security implications.

>
> > Was all this so that management could have even FATTER paychecks,
> > bonuses and benefits?? Think about it next time you're taking off or
> > landing at a crowded urban area airport.

>
> > Citizen Jimserac

>
> And to think that you have been advocating the same kind of situation for
> the healthcare field. <G>
>
> --
> I've got a whole new outlook on life. If the kids want to foot the bills,
> hell, I'll take all the
> government handouts they want to force on me. Who says being a senior
> citizen is tough?
> Listen up kids, hang in there. Work, work, work. Millions of senior citizens
> are counting on you!
>
> http://www.reason.com/
>
> JC


STILL trying to keep those "insurance" companies in the health
care system, eh? Well it's a Quixotic quest but good luck!!

Last time I looked, there were NO software "providers",
maybe the "insurance" companies can look into it after they all get
kicked
out of health "care".

Citizen Jimserac
 
"Citizen Jimserac" <Jimserac@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193057387.880176.47660@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 22, 7:44 am, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:
>> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303841,00.html
>> NASA Refuses to Disclose Air Safety Survey
>> Monday, October 22, 2007

> Reminds me of a job interview I had at a company back in 1992.
> I've forgotten their name but it was up around Route 128 somewhere
> in the Boston area and had the contract to redo the aging air traffic
> control software.
> I had a good interview, had the background they needed, talked to
> several
> of the programmers and managers. There were HUNDREDS of software
> engineers working on air traffic control software, I had never worked
> in a company this big.
> I figured I had a chance but they were vague about a follow up
> interview, just the old "expect us to contact you in about a week,
> maybe". As I headed down the long corridor to the exit, I remembered
> that I had left my coat on a chair in the "human resources" office and
> immediately turned around and walked back in.
> That's when I noticed 6 huge 5 foot high stacks of folders and
> resume's lying on the floor next to the filing cabinets. As I walked
> back I heard the human resources gal
> say "what should I do with this resume, the filing cabinets are
> full". She was standing right next to the trash bin.
> It was clear that even back then, outsourcing must have been uppermost
> on management's minds in those happy pre 9-11 days. They were going
> to **** can most of the local software engineer applications obviously
> because the salary demands and requirements for company health care
> and benefits could be bypassed by going for foreigners who worked dirt
> cheap in those days in order to get in on a cool project.
> By now, all those skilled native engineers, like me, have "gone
> elsewhere" and maybe it is not such a great idea anymore to hire
> foreign programmers for air traffic control systems which have
> national defense and security implications.


America has not once taken true and full responsibility for air traffic
safety or the airlines.

> Was all this so that management could have even FATTER paychecks,
> bonuses and benefits?


Nope. There's no such thing as the "management" in this case. Air reaffic
safety in America is a mix-matched and mismatched combination of gov't
employees, career gov't employees, other gov't agency employees, Congress,
Congressional committees (and their employees), AND civilian agencies (and
their employees), and the commercial air carriers.

> Think about it next time you're taking off or
> landing at a crowded urban area airport.


We quit flying commercial in 1996 after the ValueJet crash.
 
On Oct 22, 1:28 pm, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:
> "Citizen Jimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193057387.880176.47660@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Oct 22, 7:44 am, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303841,00.html
> >> NASA Refuses to Disclose Air Safety Survey
> >> Monday, October 22, 2007

> > Reminds me of a job interview I had at a company back in 1992.
> > I've forgotten their name but it was up around Route 128 somewhere
> > in the Boston area and had the contract to redo the aging air traffic
> > control software.
> > I had a good interview, had the background they needed, talked to
> > several
> > of the programmers and managers. There were HUNDREDS of software
> > engineers working on air traffic control software, I had never worked
> > in a company this big.
> > I figured I had a chance but they were vague about a follow up
> > interview, just the old "expect us to contact you in about a week,
> > maybe". As I headed down the long corridor to the exit, I remembered
> > that I had left my coat on a chair in the "human resources" office and
> > immediately turned around and walked back in.
> > That's when I noticed 6 huge 5 foot high stacks of folders and
> > resume's lying on the floor next to the filing cabinets. As I walked
> > back I heard the human resources gal
> > say "what should I do with this resume, the filing cabinets are
> > full". She was standing right next to the trash bin.
> > It was clear that even back then, outsourcing must have been uppermost
> > on management's minds in those happy pre 9-11 days. They were going
> > to **** can most of the local software engineer applications obviously
> > because the salary demands and requirements for company health care
> > and benefits could be bypassed by going for foreigners who worked dirt
> > cheap in those days in order to get in on a cool project.
> > By now, all those skilled native engineers, like me, have "gone
> > elsewhere" and maybe it is not such a great idea anymore to hire
> > foreign programmers for air traffic control systems which have
> > national defense and security implications.

>
> America has not once taken true and full responsibility for air traffic
> safety or the airlines.
>
> > Was all this so that management could have even FATTER paychecks,
> > bonuses and benefits?

>
> Nope. There's no such thing as the "management" in this case. Air reaffic
> safety in America is a mix-matched and mismatched combination of gov't
> employees, career gov't employees, other gov't agency employees, Congress,
> Congressional committees (and their employees), AND civilian agencies (and
> their employees), and the commercial air carriers.
>
> > Think about it next time you're taking off or
> > landing at a crowded urban area airport.

>
> We quit flying commercial in 1996 after the ValueJet crash.


Good points and wise choice!!

Citizen Jimserac
 
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