Airline Passengers, Beware: The Government Does Not Protect Your Rights When You Fly

G

Gandalf Grey

Guest
Airline Passengers, Beware: The Government Does Not Protect Your Rights When
You Fly

By John W. Dean

Created Apr 4 2008 - 10:18am


This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on the lack
of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT

Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac for
just over three hours before taking off. As we waited, a flight attendant
treated passengers just as a good Nazi might have. With this experience in
mind, I applauded the fact that New York lawmakers recently took action to
deal with the growing problem of imprisoning passengers upon planes from
which, despite many-hour waits, they are forbidden to disembark.

Unfortunately, that very effort -- which was going to be followed by several
other states' reforms -- has been overturned by U.S. Court of Appeals for
the Second Circuit [1]. Meanwhile, Congress has completely failed to respond
to the problem, apparently bowing to pressure from the airlines, which
oppose such reforms.

If you have not personally experienced this type of problem, you are lucky.
It is a horrid situation, and there is nothing you can do about it. When you
board a commercial airliner in the United States for a domestic flight, you
have virtually contracted away your rights by purchasing and accepting your
ticket to hell (metaphorically speaking).

Passenger Imprisonment and Airline Hubris: One Story Illustrates A Problem
Many Travelers Endure

As a frequent flyer, I have had endured long delays (both on the ground and
in flight patterns) but my first three-hour-plus delay was particularly
unpleasant, because a young lady seated near me was having an awful time
with her child, and Nurse Ratched (the harridan of "One Flew Over the
Cuckoo's Nest") was playing head flight attendant that evening.

It was the last flight from Phoenix to Los Angeles, during Summer 2000. Only
after we pulled away from the gate did the captain announce that there would
be "a slight delay" because of electrical storms in the area. Our short
delay had already lasted about an hour when the young child in her mother's
arms awoke and started crying. The young mother was in my row, seated by the
window, and she rang the flight attendant call button. She explained to the
flight attendant that the TSA had refused to let her take the child's water
bottle through security, and asked if the flight attendant could bring the
child some water.

To the consternation of the mother, to the amazement of the very large man
seated in the middle seat, and to the astonishment of yours truly, the
flight attendant said she had no access to water. The water, she said, was
secured, and since we would likely be taking off any moment, she could not
do anything. The large man in the middle seat immediately interjected that,
if he could get out of his seat, he had a bottle of water he had just
purchased, which was in his bag in the overhead compartment, and he would
give it to the thirsty child. No, he must stay seated, he was told. No, the
flight attendant would not retrieve the bottle of water from his bag if he
described it.

Fortunately, an equally dumbfounded passenger across the aisle, who was
listening, reached under his seat and produced a bottle of water. We passed
the bottle to the mother and it solved the problem, for soon the child was
back asleep in her arms.

About forty minutes later, as we sat there with no word from the captain, an
elderly woman about two rows in front of me rang the call button. She wanted
to know if she could go to the bathroom. Embarrassed, she was forced to
explain, for all nearby to hear, that she had a medical problem - a fact
that soon would be shared with the entire plane. The flight attendant told
the lady that she would check. Then the flight attendant went forward, and
spoke on the phone to the captain. The captain came on the intercom to
explain that an electrical storm was sitting over our departure route, but
it appeared to be moving, so he was giving one passenger with a medical
condition permission to use the lavatory. Everyone applauded. Everyone else
should remain in their seats with their safety belts fastened, he said,
because he hoped to be headed to Los Angeles very shortly. More applause
followed.

Another hour passed - and I can assure you they pass very slowly in these
circumstances - and we were still on the ground. The captain finally came on
the intercom again and apologized, explaining this time that he was going to
taxi to another runway to see if he could get out in a different direction.
(The large man beside me wondered why he had not thought to do that an hour
earlier.) But we were soon told that the new approach would not work either.
However, his announcements and all the taxiing did awaken the now truly
unhappy and previously sleeping child.

When the child started screaming, the distressed young mother again rang the
call button. She explained to the flight attendant that the child's diapers
were in the bag that the TSA had made her check. The child was screaming for
reasons clear to every nose within ten feet; he wanted his dirty diaper
changed. Nurse Ratched, however, had neither an answer nor any sympathy, and
simply walked off. We endured about forty minutes of serious screaming until
the child fell asleep, exhausted - as we all were by this time.

After three-plus hours of our sitting in a hot, smelly, dimly-lit plane
packed with angry passengers, the flight was cleared for take off. Needless
to say, it could have been worse. But it was just enough of a sample to give
me a special empathy when I read of the ghastly examples of airlines holding
their passengers hostage for as long as thirteen hours before returning to
the gate. Passengers have become ill, not to mention suffering both
emotionally and financially, from these situations. Surprisingly, however,
few of these incidents are reported by the national news media. More
remarkably, few passengers take any action after the incident to attempt to
seek redress for, or draw public attention to, what they have endured.

How Airlines' Treatment of Passengers Declined From Bad to Worse after 9/11

After my own particularly dreadful wait, I spoke with an attorney friend who
practices aviation law. He said that passengers have few rights in these
situations, but also noted that the law on this point is less than clear. He
told me that he personally prepares for such situations (when he cannot use
his firm's corporate jet), thus always being ready for the worst. He also
recommended audio books to pass the time.

He agreed that since the airlines have been deregulated, the quality of
service has gone in the tank. On international flights, which are still
subject to regulation, the standards of service are far superior,
particularly on foreign-owned airlines. But foreign flights too are subject
to sitting for excessive period on the tarmac from time to time.

Later, I learned that not all people are willing to give the airlines a pass
when they display utter contempt for their passengers. For example, three
passengers held for eleven hours on a Northwest flight in January 1999 filed
a class action lawsuit. They alleged false imprisonment, along with
negligence, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and breach of
contract. (The breach of contract claimed was based on the contention that
they were third-party beneficiaries of a lease agreement between the airline
and the operator of the Detroit Metropolitan Airport that called for better
service. False imprisonment, in this context, is a civil cause of action
based on intentionally confining a person without the legal authority to do
so.)

In response, Northwest claimed that the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act
preempted state law for all claims relating to service. However, a Michigan
state judge sitting in Detroit disagreed, and certified the three complaints
for a class action encompassing the 7000 passengers who had spent seven to
eleven hours stranded on over thirty Northwest flights during a blizzard -
one so severe that every other airline had shut down operations, and
returned its passengers to the terminal.

Northwest - claiming it had done nothing wrong, but apparently fearing more
negative publicity - settled for $7.1 million. (An attorney on the case
figured out that it worked out to about $1200 per passenger, after the
lawyers took their cut, plus a few free flight vouchers if anyone ever
wanted to fly Northwest again.)

Congress Looked Into the Issue of Airline Passenger Treatment, But Failed to
Act

In early 2001, after two years in which passengers had experienced a growing
numbers of similar situations, Congress held hearings, and was preparing to
enact an aggressive airline passenger bill of rights law. The law was to
address not merely false imprisonment, but also unannounced flight delays,
lost baggage, and the overbooking of flights and the resultant bumping of
ticketed passengers. The law also was to take on the broader problems of the
dangerously aging and outmoded air-traffic control system and the need for
better maintenance on planes - many of the things with which unregulated
airlines now get away, to passengers' detriment.

Airline lobbyists were working overtime to block these efforts, but it was
difficult for them to do so. Since members of Congress often fly on
commercial flights, they had personal knowledge of the low level of service
being provided the public. In early 2001, it thus appeared all but certain
that Congress would mandate federal standards for better airline service.
Even President George W. Bush had spoken of the problem passengers face.

Then came 9/11, and this issue disappeared. More accurately, it was set
aside, and in the name of national security, airline service became even
worse. According to the data that has been collected by the Bureau of
Transportation Statistics [2], the number of taxi delays decreased in 2001,
2002, 2003, but by 2004, they had sharply increased.

The chances of one's being stranded on the tarmac are, relatively speaking,
remote, although the odds of its happening to you are thousands of times
better than those of your winning a lottery. Of 80 million reporting flights
since 1995, about 3000 required three hours or more to taxi to takeoff.
Conservatively, it is estimated that these delays involved about 300,000
people, most of whom neither said nor did anything to seek recourse after
enduring the delay.

The exception to the rule, however, was Kathleen "Kate" Hanni, a real estate
agent from Napa, California.

Kate Hanni Takes Up the Cause of Passengers Imprisoned for Hours on the
Tarmac

On December 29, 2006, Kate Hanni was traveling on an American Airlines
flight from San Francisco to Mobile, Alabama, when the flight was diverted
to Austin, Texas due to a winter storm. Rather than going to a gate in
Austin, however, the plane sat on the tarmac for the next 9 hours and 17
minutes. There was no food, no water, and no power. Toilets soon overflowed,
and had to be closed. Finally, the captain declared an emergency and took
the plane to the gate, which allowed the passengers disembark.

Ms. Hanni filed a class action lawsuit, explaining that she and other
passengers suffered hunger, thirst, illness, emotional distress and
financial losses when American failed to supply the planes with food or
water, empty the toilets, or let passengers off. It appears that this
lawsuit was settled.

In addition, Ms. Hanni formed an activist group - the Coalition for an
Airlines Passengers Bill of Rights [3] - which has lobbied federal and state
lawmakers to address the problem of the abuse of air travelers. All the
various proposals to protect passengers, however, have at their core
requirements like those of the New York law that the U.S. Court of Appeals
for the Second Circuit recently struck down, and which I mentioned at the
beginning of this column.

The Devastating Effect of the Second Circuit Decision, Which Appears to Have
Left Passengers Completely Unprotected

The New York law provided (and I paraphrase) that whenever airline
passengers have boarded an aircraft and are delayed more than three hours on
the plane prior to takeoff, the air carrier shall ensure that the passengers
are provided with: (a) electric generation service to provide temporary
power for fresh air and lights; (b).waste removal service in order to
service the holding tanks for the on-board restrooms; and (c) adequate food
and drinking water and other refreshments.

Airlines, through the Air Transport Association of America [4] (the ATA is
the airlines' trade association), fought the enactment of the New York law.
After losing in the legislature, they have now won in a business-friendly
New York-based federal court, on federal preemption grounds (with the very
Republican judges ignoring the federalism they also promote, but not when it
conflicts with big business). The Second Circuit said that this is a matter
for federal law, not for a patchwork of state laws, and also held that
Congress preempted the field when it first regulated and then deregulated
the airlines. Thus, according to the Second Circuit's ruling, there is no
law at all, either state or federal, that covers such misconduct by
airlines.

The Second Circuit only had jurisdiction over the New York law, but the
panel's judges noted that similar laws have been proposed by at least nine
other states, including Arizona, California, Florida, Indiana, Michigan, New
Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Washington. If other federal
circuits follow the New York ruling, none of these state laws will survive.

The Second Circuit did note, at least, that "the Department of
Transportation has proposed and sought comment on several similar passenger
protection measures that could provide uniform standards to deal with
lengthy ground delays." The court was referring to the proposed DOT
regulation for Enhancing Airline Passenger Protections, which the ATA is
fighting [5]. The ATA's position, and the thinking of the airlines, is
nicely summed up in the air travel complaints blog [6].

In sum, with the Second Circuit ruling, the airlines have effectively made
their aircraft immune from all state laws, with the possible narrow
exception of state contract law, which they expressly danced around. To
resolve this problem, Congress is going to have to act, for the situation is
intolerable and the marketplace has not corrected itself. In Part Two of
this two-part series of columns, I will explain why this Second Circuit
decision has made it particularly imperative that Congress act.

Meanwhile, be advised that only American Airline appears to have voluntarily
agreed that after four hours of delay, and no takeoff, the airline will
bring passengers back to the terminal. This agreement potentially might give
American's passengers a contractual right to damages if the airlines fails
to honor its publicly-announced promise - but only in the unlikely even that
there is no fine print anywhere that would protect American from honoring
its pledge.



--
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of
political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107

"A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
suffering deeply in spirit,
and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at
stake."
-Thomas Jefferson
 
"Gandalf Grey" <valinor20@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:47f65b8f$1$24989$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> Airline Passengers, Beware: The Government Does Not Protect Your Rights
> When
> You Fly
>
> By John W. Dean
>
> Created Apr 4 2008 - 10:18am
>
>
> This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on the
> lack
> of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT
>
> Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac for
> just over three hours before taking off. As we waited, a flight attendant
> treated passengers just as a good Nazi might have. With this experience in
> mind, I applauded the fact that New York lawmakers recently took action to
> deal with the growing problem of imprisoning passengers upon planes from
> which, despite many-hour waits, they are forbidden to disembark.
>
> Unfortunately, that very effort -- which was going to be followed by
> several
> other states' reforms -- has been overturned by U.S. Court of Appeals for
> the Second Circuit [1]. Meanwhile, Congress has completely failed to
> respond
> to the problem, apparently bowing to pressure from the airlines, which
> oppose such reforms.
>
> If you have not personally experienced this type of problem, you are
> lucky.
> It is a horrid situation, and there is nothing you can do about it. When
> you
> board a commercial airliner in the United States for a domestic flight,
> you
> have virtually contracted away your rights by purchasing and accepting
> your
> ticket to hell (metaphorically speaking).
>
> Passenger Imprisonment and Airline Hubris: One Story Illustrates A Problem
> Many Travelers Endure
>
> As a frequent flyer, I have had endured long delays (both on the ground
> and
> in flight patterns) but my first three-hour-plus delay was particularly
> unpleasant, because a young lady seated near me was having an awful time
> with her child, and Nurse Ratched (the harridan of "One Flew Over the
> Cuckoo's Nest") was playing head flight attendant that evening.
>
> It was the last flight from Phoenix to Los Angeles, during Summer 2000.
> Only
> after we pulled away from the gate did the captain announce that there
> would
> be "a slight delay" because of electrical storms in the area. Our short
> delay had already lasted about an hour when the young child in her
> mother's
> arms awoke and started crying. The young mother was in my row, seated by
> the
> window, and she rang the flight attendant call button. She explained to
> the
> flight attendant that the TSA had refused to let her take the child's
> water
> bottle through security, and asked if the flight attendant could bring the
> child some water.
>
> To the consternation of the mother, to the amazement of the very large man
> seated in the middle seat, and to the astonishment of yours truly, the
> flight attendant said she had no access to water. The water, she said, was
> secured, and since we would likely be taking off any moment, she could not
> do anything. The large man in the middle seat immediately interjected
> that,
> if he could get out of his seat, he had a bottle of water he had just
> purchased, which was in his bag in the overhead compartment, and he would
> give it to the thirsty child. No, he must stay seated, he was told. No,
> the
> flight attendant would not retrieve the bottle of water from his bag if he
> described it.
>
> Fortunately, an equally dumbfounded passenger across the aisle, who was
> listening, reached under his seat and produced a bottle of water. We
> passed
> the bottle to the mother and it solved the problem, for soon the child was
> back asleep in her arms.
>
> About forty minutes later, as we sat there with no word from the captain,
> an
> elderly woman about two rows in front of me rang the call button. She
> wanted
> to know if she could go to the bathroom. Embarrassed, she was forced to
> explain, for all nearby to hear, that she had a medical problem - a fact
> that soon would be shared with the entire plane. The flight attendant told
> the lady that she would check. Then the flight attendant went forward, and
> spoke on the phone to the captain. The captain came on the intercom to
> explain that an electrical storm was sitting over our departure route, but
> it appeared to be moving, so he was giving one passenger with a medical
> condition permission to use the lavatory. Everyone applauded. Everyone
> else
> should remain in their seats with their safety belts fastened, he said,
> because he hoped to be headed to Los Angeles very shortly. More applause
> followed.
>
> Another hour passed - and I can assure you they pass very slowly in these
> circumstances - and we were still on the ground. The captain finally came
> on
> the intercom again and apologized, explaining this time that he was going
> to
> taxi to another runway to see if he could get out in a different
> direction.
> (The large man beside me wondered why he had not thought to do that an
> hour
> earlier.) But we were soon told that the new approach would not work
> either.
> However, his announcements and all the taxiing did awaken the now truly
> unhappy and previously sleeping child.
>
> When the child started screaming, the distressed young mother again rang
> the
> call button. She explained to the flight attendant that the child's
> diapers
> were in the bag that the TSA had made her check. The child was screaming
> for
> reasons clear to every nose within ten feet; he wanted his dirty diaper
> changed. Nurse Ratched, however, had neither an answer nor any sympathy,
> and
> simply walked off. We endured about forty minutes of serious screaming
> until
> the child fell asleep, exhausted - as we all were by this time.
>
> After three-plus hours of our sitting in a hot, smelly, dimly-lit plane
> packed with angry passengers, the flight was cleared for take off.
> Needless
> to say, it could have been worse. But it was just enough of a sample to
> give
> me a special empathy when I read of the ghastly examples of airlines
> holding
> their passengers hostage for as long as thirteen hours before returning to
> the gate. Passengers have become ill, not to mention suffering both
> emotionally and financially, from these situations. Surprisingly, however,
> few of these incidents are reported by the national news media. More
> remarkably, few passengers take any action after the incident to attempt
> to
> seek redress for, or draw public attention to, what they have endured.
>
> How Airlines' Treatment of Passengers Declined From Bad to Worse after
> 9/11
>
> After my own particularly dreadful wait, I spoke with an attorney friend
> who
> practices aviation law. He said that passengers have few rights in these
> situations, but also noted that the law on this point is less than clear.
> He
> told me that he personally prepares for such situations (when he cannot
> use
> his firm's corporate jet), thus always being ready for the worst. He also
> recommended audio books to pass the time.
>
> He agreed that since the airlines have been deregulated, the quality of
> service has gone in the tank. On international flights, which are still
> subject to regulation, the standards of service are far superior,
> particularly on foreign-owned airlines. But foreign flights too are
> subject
> to sitting for excessive period on the tarmac from time to time.
>
> Later, I learned that not all people are willing to give the airlines a
> pass
> when they display utter contempt for their passengers. For example, three
> passengers held for eleven hours on a Northwest flight in January 1999
> filed
> a class action lawsuit. They alleged false imprisonment, along with
> negligence, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and breach of
> contract. (The breach of contract claimed was based on the contention that
> they were third-party beneficiaries of a lease agreement between the
> airline
> and the operator of the Detroit Metropolitan Airport that called for
> better
> service. False imprisonment, in this context, is a civil cause of action
> based on intentionally confining a person without the legal authority to
> do
> so.)
>
> In response, Northwest claimed that the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act
> preempted state law for all claims relating to service. However, a
> Michigan
> state judge sitting in Detroit disagreed, and certified the three
> complaints
> for a class action encompassing the 7000 passengers who had spent seven to
> eleven hours stranded on over thirty Northwest flights during a blizzard -
> one so severe that every other airline had shut down operations, and
> returned its passengers to the terminal.
>
> Northwest - claiming it had done nothing wrong, but apparently fearing
> more
> negative publicity - settled for $7.1 million. (An attorney on the case
> figured out that it worked out to about $1200 per passenger, after the
> lawyers took their cut, plus a few free flight vouchers if anyone ever
> wanted to fly Northwest again.)
>
> Congress Looked Into the Issue of Airline Passenger Treatment, But Failed
> to
> Act
>
> In early 2001, after two years in which passengers had experienced a
> growing
> numbers of similar situations, Congress held hearings, and was preparing
> to
> enact an aggressive airline passenger bill of rights law. The law was to
> address not merely false imprisonment, but also unannounced flight delays,
> lost baggage, and the overbooking of flights and the resultant bumping of
> ticketed passengers. The law also was to take on the broader problems of
> the
> dangerously aging and outmoded air-traffic control system and the need for
> better maintenance on planes - many of the things with which unregulated
> airlines now get away, to passengers' detriment.
>
> Airline lobbyists were working overtime to block these efforts, but it was
> difficult for them to do so. Since members of Congress often fly on
> commercial flights, they had personal knowledge of the low level of
> service
> being provided the public. In early 2001, it thus appeared all but certain
> that Congress would mandate federal standards for better airline service.
> Even President George W. Bush had spoken of the problem passengers face.
>
> Then came 9/11, and this issue disappeared. More accurately, it was set
> aside, and in the name of national security, airline service became even
> worse. According to the data that has been collected by the Bureau of
> Transportation Statistics [2], the number of taxi delays decreased in
> 2001,
> 2002, 2003, but by 2004, they had sharply increased.
>
> The chances of one's being stranded on the tarmac are, relatively
> speaking,
> remote, although the odds of its happening to you are thousands of times
> better than those of your winning a lottery. Of 80 million reporting
> flights
> since 1995, about 3000 required three hours or more to taxi to takeoff.
> Conservatively, it is estimated that these delays involved about 300,000
> people, most of whom neither said nor did anything to seek recourse after
> enduring the delay.
>
> The exception to the rule, however, was Kathleen "Kate" Hanni, a real
> estate
> agent from Napa, California.
>
> Kate Hanni Takes Up the Cause of Passengers Imprisoned for Hours on the
> Tarmac
>
> On December 29, 2006, Kate Hanni was traveling on an American Airlines
> flight from San Francisco to Mobile, Alabama, when the flight was diverted
> to Austin, Texas due to a winter storm. Rather than going to a gate in
> Austin, however, the plane sat on the tarmac for the next 9 hours and 17
> minutes. There was no food, no water, and no power. Toilets soon
> overflowed,
> and had to be closed. Finally, the captain declared an emergency and took
> the plane to the gate, which allowed the passengers disembark.
>
> Ms. Hanni filed a class action lawsuit, explaining that she and other
> passengers suffered hunger, thirst, illness, emotional distress and
> financial losses when American failed to supply the planes with food or
> water, empty the toilets, or let passengers off. It appears that this
> lawsuit was settled.
>
> In addition, Ms. Hanni formed an activist group - the Coalition for an
> Airlines Passengers Bill of Rights [3] - which has lobbied federal and
> state
> lawmakers to address the problem of the abuse of air travelers. All the
> various proposals to protect passengers, however, have at their core
> requirements like those of the New York law that the U.S. Court of Appeals
> for the Second Circuit recently struck down, and which I mentioned at the
> beginning of this column.
>
> The Devastating Effect of the Second Circuit Decision, Which Appears to
> Have
> Left Passengers Completely Unprotected
>
> The New York law provided (and I paraphrase) that whenever airline
> passengers have boarded an aircraft and are delayed more than three hours
> on
> the plane prior to takeoff, the air carrier shall ensure that the
> passengers
> are provided with: (a) electric generation service to provide temporary
> power for fresh air and lights; (b).waste removal service in order to
> service the holding tanks for the on-board restrooms; and (c) adequate
> food
> and drinking water and other refreshments.
>
> Airlines, through the Air Transport Association of America [4] (the ATA is
> the airlines' trade association), fought the enactment of the New York
> law.
> After losing in the legislature, they have now won in a business-friendly
> New York-based federal court, on federal preemption grounds (with the very
> Republican judges ignoring the federalism they also promote, but not when
> it
> conflicts with big business). The Second Circuit said that this is a
> matter
> for federal law, not for a patchwork of state laws, and also held that
> Congress preempted the field when it first regulated and then deregulated
> the airlines. Thus, according to the Second Circuit's ruling, there is no
> law at all, either state or federal, that covers such misconduct by
> airlines.
>
> The Second Circuit only had jurisdiction over the New York law, but the
> panel's judges noted that similar laws have been proposed by at least nine
> other states, including Arizona, California, Florida, Indiana, Michigan,
> New
> Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Washington. If other federal
> circuits follow the New York ruling, none of these state laws will
> survive.
>
> The Second Circuit did note, at least, that "the Department of
> Transportation has proposed and sought comment on several similar
> passenger
> protection measures that could provide uniform standards to deal with
> lengthy ground delays." The court was referring to the proposed DOT
> regulation for Enhancing Airline Passenger Protections, which the ATA is
> fighting [5]. The ATA's position, and the thinking of the airlines, is
> nicely summed up in the air travel complaints blog [6].
>
> In sum, with the Second Circuit ruling, the airlines have effectively made
> their aircraft immune from all state laws, with the possible narrow
> exception of state contract law, which they expressly danced around. To
> resolve this problem, Congress is going to have to act, for the situation
> is
> intolerable and the marketplace has not corrected itself. In Part Two of
> this two-part series of columns, I will explain why this Second Circuit
> decision has made it particularly imperative that Congress act.
>
> Meanwhile, be advised that only American Airline appears to have
> voluntarily
> agreed that after four hours of delay, and no takeoff, the airline will
> bring passengers back to the terminal. This agreement potentially might
> give
> American's passengers a contractual right to damages if the airlines fails
> to honor its publicly-announced promise - but only in the unlikely even
> that
> there is no fine print anywhere that would protect American from honoring
> its pledge.
>
>
>
> --
> NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
> always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
> available to advance understanding of
> political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues.
> I
> believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
> Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
>
> "A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
> spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
> government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
> suffering deeply in spirit,
> and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
> debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
> patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
> back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are
> at
> stake."
> -Thomas Jefferson


first off, you (no one) have any "rights" on an airplane or in an airport.
this has been tested ind resolved by the courts long ago. you can take it,
or you can travel by other means.

second off, it continues to amaze me how lacking in common sense the
airlines are. it would be easy enough to accommodate people in these
stressful situations. I know all the arguments. I know the gate situation,
and the reason for having to park planes on the tarmac. I've been on planes
that arrived hours late then boarded, then backed out of the gate, then had
to pull off somewhere waiting for parts to repair something when an
indicator light goes off. One would hope there would be a better means than
what we have, but the whole airport and airline mentaility is that if things
dont go perfectly then it is perfectly all right to treat everyone like
crap.

but to repeat - no passenger has any "rights" on a commercial airliner other
than to shut up and take whatever they dish out.




..




>
>
>
 
"OneTwoThree" <youare@notverysmart.ru> wrote in message
news:9eOdnQ1XtZ3r-2vanZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Gandalf Grey" <valinor20@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:47f65b8f$1$24989$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>> Airline Passengers, Beware: The Government Does Not Protect Your Rights
>> When
>> You Fly
>>
>> By John W. Dean
>>
>> Created Apr 4 2008 - 10:18am
>>
>>
>> This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on the
>> lack
>> of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT
>>
>> Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac for
>> just over three hours before taking off. As we waited, a flight attendant
>> treated passengers just as a good Nazi might have. With this experience
>> in
>> mind, I applauded the fact that New York lawmakers recently took action
>> to
>> deal with the growing problem of imprisoning passengers upon planes from
>> which, despite many-hour waits, they are forbidden to disembark.
>>
>> Unfortunately, that very effort -- which was going to be followed by
>> several
>> other states' reforms -- has been overturned by U.S. Court of Appeals for
>> the Second Circuit [1]. Meanwhile, Congress has completely failed to
>> respond
>> to the problem, apparently bowing to pressure from the airlines, which
>> oppose such reforms.
>>
>> If you have not personally experienced this type of problem, you are
>> lucky.
>> It is a horrid situation, and there is nothing you can do about it. When
>> you
>> board a commercial airliner in the United States for a domestic flight,
>> you
>> have virtually contracted away your rights by purchasing and accepting
>> your
>> ticket to hell (metaphorically speaking).
>>
>> Passenger Imprisonment and Airline Hubris: One Story Illustrates A
>> Problem
>> Many Travelers Endure
>>
>> As a frequent flyer, I have had endured long delays (both on the ground
>> and
>> in flight patterns) but my first three-hour-plus delay was particularly
>> unpleasant, because a young lady seated near me was having an awful time
>> with her child, and Nurse Ratched (the harridan of "One Flew Over the
>> Cuckoo's Nest") was playing head flight attendant that evening.
>>
>> It was the last flight from Phoenix to Los Angeles, during Summer 2000.
>> Only
>> after we pulled away from the gate did the captain announce that there
>> would
>> be "a slight delay" because of electrical storms in the area. Our short
>> delay had already lasted about an hour when the young child in her
>> mother's
>> arms awoke and started crying. The young mother was in my row, seated by
>> the
>> window, and she rang the flight attendant call button. She explained to
>> the
>> flight attendant that the TSA had refused to let her take the child's
>> water
>> bottle through security, and asked if the flight attendant could bring
>> the
>> child some water.
>>
>> To the consternation of the mother, to the amazement of the very large
>> man
>> seated in the middle seat, and to the astonishment of yours truly, the
>> flight attendant said she had no access to water. The water, she said,
>> was
>> secured, and since we would likely be taking off any moment, she could
>> not
>> do anything. The large man in the middle seat immediately interjected
>> that,
>> if he could get out of his seat, he had a bottle of water he had just
>> purchased, which was in his bag in the overhead compartment, and he would
>> give it to the thirsty child. No, he must stay seated, he was told. No,
>> the
>> flight attendant would not retrieve the bottle of water from his bag if
>> he
>> described it.
>>
>> Fortunately, an equally dumbfounded passenger across the aisle, who was
>> listening, reached under his seat and produced a bottle of water. We
>> passed
>> the bottle to the mother and it solved the problem, for soon the child
>> was
>> back asleep in her arms.
>>
>> About forty minutes later, as we sat there with no word from the captain,
>> an
>> elderly woman about two rows in front of me rang the call button. She
>> wanted
>> to know if she could go to the bathroom. Embarrassed, she was forced to
>> explain, for all nearby to hear, that she had a medical problem - a fact
>> that soon would be shared with the entire plane. The flight attendant
>> told
>> the lady that she would check. Then the flight attendant went forward,
>> and
>> spoke on the phone to the captain. The captain came on the intercom to
>> explain that an electrical storm was sitting over our departure route,
>> but
>> it appeared to be moving, so he was giving one passenger with a medical
>> condition permission to use the lavatory. Everyone applauded. Everyone
>> else
>> should remain in their seats with their safety belts fastened, he said,
>> because he hoped to be headed to Los Angeles very shortly. More applause
>> followed.
>>
>> Another hour passed - and I can assure you they pass very slowly in these
>> circumstances - and we were still on the ground. The captain finally came
>> on
>> the intercom again and apologized, explaining this time that he was going
>> to
>> taxi to another runway to see if he could get out in a different
>> direction.
>> (The large man beside me wondered why he had not thought to do that an
>> hour
>> earlier.) But we were soon told that the new approach would not work
>> either.
>> However, his announcements and all the taxiing did awaken the now truly
>> unhappy and previously sleeping child.
>>
>> When the child started screaming, the distressed young mother again rang
>> the
>> call button. She explained to the flight attendant that the child's
>> diapers
>> were in the bag that the TSA had made her check. The child was screaming
>> for
>> reasons clear to every nose within ten feet; he wanted his dirty diaper
>> changed. Nurse Ratched, however, had neither an answer nor any sympathy,
>> and
>> simply walked off. We endured about forty minutes of serious screaming
>> until
>> the child fell asleep, exhausted - as we all were by this time.
>>
>> After three-plus hours of our sitting in a hot, smelly, dimly-lit plane
>> packed with angry passengers, the flight was cleared for take off.
>> Needless
>> to say, it could have been worse. But it was just enough of a sample to
>> give
>> me a special empathy when I read of the ghastly examples of airlines
>> holding
>> their passengers hostage for as long as thirteen hours before returning
>> to
>> the gate. Passengers have become ill, not to mention suffering both
>> emotionally and financially, from these situations. Surprisingly,
>> however,
>> few of these incidents are reported by the national news media. More
>> remarkably, few passengers take any action after the incident to attempt
>> to
>> seek redress for, or draw public attention to, what they have endured.
>>
>> How Airlines' Treatment of Passengers Declined From Bad to Worse after
>> 9/11
>>
>> After my own particularly dreadful wait, I spoke with an attorney friend
>> who
>> practices aviation law. He said that passengers have few rights in these
>> situations, but also noted that the law on this point is less than clear.
>> He
>> told me that he personally prepares for such situations (when he cannot
>> use
>> his firm's corporate jet), thus always being ready for the worst. He also
>> recommended audio books to pass the time.
>>
>> He agreed that since the airlines have been deregulated, the quality of
>> service has gone in the tank. On international flights, which are still
>> subject to regulation, the standards of service are far superior,
>> particularly on foreign-owned airlines. But foreign flights too are
>> subject
>> to sitting for excessive period on the tarmac from time to time.
>>
>> Later, I learned that not all people are willing to give the airlines a
>> pass
>> when they display utter contempt for their passengers. For example, three
>> passengers held for eleven hours on a Northwest flight in January 1999
>> filed
>> a class action lawsuit. They alleged false imprisonment, along with
>> negligence, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and breach of
>> contract. (The breach of contract claimed was based on the contention
>> that
>> they were third-party beneficiaries of a lease agreement between the
>> airline
>> and the operator of the Detroit Metropolitan Airport that called for
>> better
>> service. False imprisonment, in this context, is a civil cause of action
>> based on intentionally confining a person without the legal authority to
>> do
>> so.)
>>
>> In response, Northwest claimed that the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act
>> preempted state law for all claims relating to service. However, a
>> Michigan
>> state judge sitting in Detroit disagreed, and certified the three
>> complaints
>> for a class action encompassing the 7000 passengers who had spent seven
>> to
>> eleven hours stranded on over thirty Northwest flights during a
>> blizzard -
>> one so severe that every other airline had shut down operations, and
>> returned its passengers to the terminal.
>>
>> Northwest - claiming it had done nothing wrong, but apparently fearing
>> more
>> negative publicity - settled for $7.1 million. (An attorney on the case
>> figured out that it worked out to about $1200 per passenger, after the
>> lawyers took their cut, plus a few free flight vouchers if anyone ever
>> wanted to fly Northwest again.)
>>
>> Congress Looked Into the Issue of Airline Passenger Treatment, But Failed
>> to
>> Act
>>
>> In early 2001, after two years in which passengers had experienced a
>> growing
>> numbers of similar situations, Congress held hearings, and was preparing
>> to
>> enact an aggressive airline passenger bill of rights law. The law was to
>> address not merely false imprisonment, but also unannounced flight
>> delays,
>> lost baggage, and the overbooking of flights and the resultant bumping of
>> ticketed passengers. The law also was to take on the broader problems of
>> the
>> dangerously aging and outmoded air-traffic control system and the need
>> for
>> better maintenance on planes - many of the things with which unregulated
>> airlines now get away, to passengers' detriment.
>>
>> Airline lobbyists were working overtime to block these efforts, but it
>> was
>> difficult for them to do so. Since members of Congress often fly on
>> commercial flights, they had personal knowledge of the low level of
>> service
>> being provided the public. In early 2001, it thus appeared all but
>> certain
>> that Congress would mandate federal standards for better airline service.
>> Even President George W. Bush had spoken of the problem passengers face.
>>
>> Then came 9/11, and this issue disappeared. More accurately, it was set
>> aside, and in the name of national security, airline service became even
>> worse. According to the data that has been collected by the Bureau of
>> Transportation Statistics [2], the number of taxi delays decreased in
>> 2001,
>> 2002, 2003, but by 2004, they had sharply increased.
>>
>> The chances of one's being stranded on the tarmac are, relatively
>> speaking,
>> remote, although the odds of its happening to you are thousands of times
>> better than those of your winning a lottery. Of 80 million reporting
>> flights
>> since 1995, about 3000 required three hours or more to taxi to takeoff.
>> Conservatively, it is estimated that these delays involved about 300,000
>> people, most of whom neither said nor did anything to seek recourse after
>> enduring the delay.
>>
>> The exception to the rule, however, was Kathleen "Kate" Hanni, a real
>> estate
>> agent from Napa, California.
>>
>> Kate Hanni Takes Up the Cause of Passengers Imprisoned for Hours on the
>> Tarmac
>>
>> On December 29, 2006, Kate Hanni was traveling on an American Airlines
>> flight from San Francisco to Mobile, Alabama, when the flight was
>> diverted
>> to Austin, Texas due to a winter storm. Rather than going to a gate in
>> Austin, however, the plane sat on the tarmac for the next 9 hours and 17
>> minutes. There was no food, no water, and no power. Toilets soon
>> overflowed,
>> and had to be closed. Finally, the captain declared an emergency and took
>> the plane to the gate, which allowed the passengers disembark.
>>
>> Ms. Hanni filed a class action lawsuit, explaining that she and other
>> passengers suffered hunger, thirst, illness, emotional distress and
>> financial losses when American failed to supply the planes with food or
>> water, empty the toilets, or let passengers off. It appears that this
>> lawsuit was settled.
>>
>> In addition, Ms. Hanni formed an activist group - the Coalition for an
>> Airlines Passengers Bill of Rights [3] - which has lobbied federal and
>> state
>> lawmakers to address the problem of the abuse of air travelers. All the
>> various proposals to protect passengers, however, have at their core
>> requirements like those of the New York law that the U.S. Court of
>> Appeals
>> for the Second Circuit recently struck down, and which I mentioned at the
>> beginning of this column.
>>
>> The Devastating Effect of the Second Circuit Decision, Which Appears to
>> Have
>> Left Passengers Completely Unprotected
>>
>> The New York law provided (and I paraphrase) that whenever airline
>> passengers have boarded an aircraft and are delayed more than three hours
>> on
>> the plane prior to takeoff, the air carrier shall ensure that the
>> passengers
>> are provided with: (a) electric generation service to provide temporary
>> power for fresh air and lights; (b).waste removal service in order to
>> service the holding tanks for the on-board restrooms; and (c) adequate
>> food
>> and drinking water and other refreshments.
>>
>> Airlines, through the Air Transport Association of America [4] (the ATA
>> is
>> the airlines' trade association), fought the enactment of the New York
>> law.
>> After losing in the legislature, they have now won in a business-friendly
>> New York-based federal court, on federal preemption grounds (with the
>> very
>> Republican judges ignoring the federalism they also promote, but not when
>> it
>> conflicts with big business). The Second Circuit said that this is a
>> matter
>> for federal law, not for a patchwork of state laws, and also held that
>> Congress preempted the field when it first regulated and then deregulated
>> the airlines. Thus, according to the Second Circuit's ruling, there is no
>> law at all, either state or federal, that covers such misconduct by
>> airlines.
>>
>> The Second Circuit only had jurisdiction over the New York law, but the
>> panel's judges noted that similar laws have been proposed by at least
>> nine
>> other states, including Arizona, California, Florida, Indiana, Michigan,
>> New
>> Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Washington. If other federal
>> circuits follow the New York ruling, none of these state laws will
>> survive.
>>
>> The Second Circuit did note, at least, that "the Department of
>> Transportation has proposed and sought comment on several similar
>> passenger
>> protection measures that could provide uniform standards to deal with
>> lengthy ground delays." The court was referring to the proposed DOT
>> regulation for Enhancing Airline Passenger Protections, which the ATA is
>> fighting [5]. The ATA's position, and the thinking of the airlines, is
>> nicely summed up in the air travel complaints blog [6].
>>
>> In sum, with the Second Circuit ruling, the airlines have effectively
>> made
>> their aircraft immune from all state laws, with the possible narrow
>> exception of state contract law, which they expressly danced around. To
>> resolve this problem, Congress is going to have to act, for the situation
>> is
>> intolerable and the marketplace has not corrected itself. In Part Two of
>> this two-part series of columns, I will explain why this Second Circuit
>> decision has made it particularly imperative that Congress act.
>>
>> Meanwhile, be advised that only American Airline appears to have
>> voluntarily
>> agreed that after four hours of delay, and no takeoff, the airline will
>> bring passengers back to the terminal. This agreement potentially might
>> give
>> American's passengers a contractual right to damages if the airlines
>> fails
>> to honor its publicly-announced promise - but only in the unlikely even
>> that
>> there is no fine print anywhere that would protect American from honoring
>> its pledge.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
>> always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
>> available to advance understanding of
>> political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice
>> issues. I
>> believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
>> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
>> Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
>>
>> "A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
>> spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore
>> their
>> government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we
>> are
>> suffering deeply in spirit,
>> and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous
>> public
>> debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
>> patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of
>> winning
>> back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are
>> at
>> stake."
>> -Thomas Jefferson

>
> first off, you (no one) have any "rights" on an airplane or in an airport.
> this has been tested ind resolved by the courts long ago. you can take it,
> or you can travel by other means.
>
> second off, it continues to amaze me how lacking in common sense the
> airlines are. it would be easy enough to accommodate people in these
> stressful situations. I know all the arguments. I know the gate situation,
> and the reason for having to park planes on the tarmac. I've been on
> planes that arrived hours late then boarded, then backed out of the gate,
> then had to pull off somewhere waiting for parts to repair something when
> an indicator light goes off. One would hope there would be a better means
> than what we have, but the whole airport and airline mentaility is that if
> things dont go perfectly then it is perfectly all right to treat everyone
> like crap.
>
> but to repeat - no passenger has any "rights" on a commercial airliner
> other than to shut up and take whatever they dish out.
>
>



except, apparently, for Muslims, who can get up, act suspiciously, disobey
the rules, and walk away with impunity.


>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>

>
>
 

>
> first off, you (no one) have any "rights" on an airplane or in an airport.
> this has been tested ind resolved by the courts long ago. you can take it,
> or you can travel by other means.
>
> second off, it continues to amaze me how lacking in common sense the
> airlines are. it would be easy enough to accommodate people in these
> stressful situations. I know all the arguments. I know the gate situation,
> and the reason for having to park planes on the tarmac. I've been on planes
> that arrived hours late then boarded, then backed out of the gate, then had
> to pull off somewhere waiting for parts to repair something when an
> indicator light goes off. One would hope there would be a better means than
> what we have, but the whole airport and airline mentaility is that if things
> dont go perfectly then it is perfectly all right to treat everyone like
> crap.
>
> but to repeat - no passenger has any "rights" on a commercial airliner other
> than to shut up and take whatever they dish out.
>
> .


Sorry, Charlie, you just don't know what a right is and how it is
used. You have all the rights afforded in the federal constitution
and the state constitution balanced by the fact that your rights
shouldn't interfere with your fellow passengers rights.

If the plane has to wait a short while, thats understandable. If it
has to wait hours, thats a real problem and thats why the airline
settled that suit. Some of the recent horror stories have just
invited suits.
 
"Kevin Cunningham" <smskjc@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:074f8a72-93f5-4fd4-846b-986efdeb0084@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> first off, you (no one) have any "rights" on an airplane or in an
>> airport.
>> this has been tested ind resolved by the courts long ago. you can take
>> it,
>> or you can travel by other means.
>>
>> second off, it continues to amaze me how lacking in common sense the
>> airlines are. it would be easy enough to accommodate people in these
>> stressful situations. I know all the arguments. I know the gate
>> situation,
>> and the reason for having to park planes on the tarmac. I've been on
>> planes
>> that arrived hours late then boarded, then backed out of the gate, then
>> had
>> to pull off somewhere waiting for parts to repair something when an
>> indicator light goes off. One would hope there would be a better means
>> than
>> what we have, but the whole airport and airline mentaility is that if
>> things
>> dont go perfectly then it is perfectly all right to treat everyone like
>> crap.
>>
>> but to repeat - no passenger has any "rights" on a commercial airliner
>> other
>> than to shut up and take whatever they dish out.
>>
>> .

>
> Sorry, Charlie, you just don't know what a right is and how it is
> used. You have all the rights afforded in the federal constitution
> and the state constitution balanced by the fact that your rights
> shouldn't interfere with your fellow passengers rights.


no "right" is absolute.

read the court decisions regarding airline travel. you enter an airline
terminal, you have no "rights" except to leave again (assuming you havent
made some stupid comment to piss off the air marshals. that's right, you do
not have unrestricted free speech rights in an airport or on an airplane.
feel free to test that statement to prove me wrong.



>
> If the plane has to wait a short while, thats understandable. If it
> has to wait hours, thats a real problem and thats why the airline
> settled that suit. Some of the recent horror stories have just
> invited suits.


let me repeat what I said above - I find it unbelievable that the airlines
and the airport were unable to exercise common sense nor find reasonable
solutions to these occurences. and if they were sued and settled (because
someone figured out they were acting stupidly, if legally) then well and
good.

btw I avoid air travel whenever possible, and if I do have to travel I fly
by the cheapest fare I can find because I believe the airlines are not
deserving of my business because of their arrogance. how about you?



..



>
 
Gandalf Grey wrote:

>
> This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on
> the lack of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT
>
> Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac
> for just over three hours before taking off.


I've has that experience too. But, what can you do about it?

I've taken to driving everywhere now - it's cheaper and less hassle.

--
-
A Republican is someone who works all day so you don't have to.
 
SlackJaw wrote:
> Gandalf Grey wrote:
>
>>
>> This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on
>> the lack of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT
>>
>> Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac
>> for just over three hours before taking off.

>
> I've has that experience too. But, what can you do about it?
>
> I've taken to driving everywhere now - it's cheaper and less hassle.


It's not cheaper. You can fly from Los Angeles to New York and back for
$400 to $600. If you get 30 miles a gallon, it would cost you over $1000 in
gasoline for the same trip. Add wear and tear and depreciation to that and
you're looking at about $1500.
 
Lamont Cranston wrote:
> SlackJaw wrote:
>> Gandalf Grey wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on
>>> the lack of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT
>>>
>>> Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac
>>> for just over three hours before taking off.

>>
>> I've has that experience too. But, what can you do about it?
>>
>> I've taken to driving everywhere now - it's cheaper and less hassle.

>
> It's not cheaper. You can fly from Los Angeles to New York and back for
> $400 to $600. If you get 30 miles a gallon, it would cost you over
> $1000 in gasoline for the same trip. Add wear and tear and depreciation
> to that and you're looking at about $1500.


Add to that the cost of food and lodging.
 
Lamont Cranston wrote:
> SlackJaw wrote:
>> Gandalf Grey wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on
>>> the lack of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT
>>>
>>> Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac
>>> for just over three hours before taking off.

>>
>> I've has that experience too. But, what can you do about it?
>>
>> I've taken to driving everywhere now - it's cheaper and less hassle.

>
> It's not cheaper. You can fly from Los Angeles to New York and back for
> $400 to $600. If you get 30 miles a gallon, it would cost you over
> $1000 in gasoline for the same trip. Add wear and tear and depreciation
> to that and you're looking at about $1500.


Let's see:

Parking at airport - $8.00 per day
Rental car at destination - $60 per day

Lots of maybes in either assumption.

But bypassing the TSA is worth considerable money, in my opinion. Last
time I flew, at Christmas, the TSA delayed both my wifes and my bags by
24 hours on our return flight.

When I got my bag back, all the books I had been given for Christmas
were ruined by being soaked in water - as were my new dress shoes.
Apparently the bags were left outside in a rainstorm until the TSA could
get to them.

Even worse, by mistake one bag had our car keys in it. So we wound up
staying overnight in a motel until our bags were located. Complaining
to the TSA is like spitting into the wind.

I say the TSA is nothing but security theater and job employment for
30,000 fedgov do-nothings. And I will certainly pay money to avoid
having to deal with the assholes.

I also say the airlines brought their current financial troubles on
themselves - and I'll never fly if I can drive and avoid both the TSA
and surly flight crews with their utter lack of respect for the paying
customers.

--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
 
On Apr 4, 2:12 pm, "OneTwoThree" <you...@notverysmart.ru> wrote:
> "Kevin Cunningham" <sms...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> news:074f8a72-93f5-4fd4-846b-986efdeb0084@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> first off, you (no one) have any "rights" on an airplane or in an
> >> airport.
> >> this has been tested ind resolved by the courts long ago. you can take
> >> it,
> >> or you can travel by other means.

>
> >> second off, it continues to amaze me how lacking in common sense the
> >> airlines are. it would be easy enough to accommodate people in these
> >> stressful situations. I know all the arguments. I know the gate
> >> situation,
> >> and the reason for having to park planes on the tarmac. I've been on
> >> planes
> >> that arrived hours late then boarded, then backed out of the gate, then
> >> had
> >> to pull off somewhere waiting for parts to repair something when an
> >> indicator light goes off. One would hope there would be a better means
> >> than
> >> what we have, but the whole airport and airline mentaility is that if
> >> things
> >> dont go perfectly then it is perfectly all right to treat everyone like
> >> crap.

>
> >> but to repeat - no passenger has any "rights" on a commercial airliner
> >> other
> >> than to shut up and take whatever they dish out.

>
> >> .

>
> > Sorry, Charlie, you just don't know what a right is and how it is
> > used. You have all the rights afforded in the federal constitution
> > and the state constitution balanced by the fact that your rights
> > shouldn't interfere with your fellow passengers rights.

>
> no "right" is absolute.
>
> read the court decisions regarding airline travel. you enter an airline
> terminal, you have no "rights" except to leave again (assuming you havent
> made some stupid comment to piss off the air marshals. that's right, you do
> not have unrestricted free speech rights in an airport or on an airplane.


AAahhh there's no public place in the country where you have
"unrestricted free speech rights". There are penalties for yelling
movie in a firehouse (or is that the other way around?) and I can't
stand on a street corner and declare you're a puppy molester. i.e.
slander. These are both curtails on unrestricted free speech rights.

> feel free to test that statement to prove me wrong.
>
>
>
> > If the plane has to wait a short while, thats understandable. If it
> > has to wait hours, thats a real problem and thats why the airline
> > settled that suit. Some of the recent horror stories have just
> > invited suits.

>
> let me repeat what I said above - I find it unbelievable that the airlines
> and the airport were unable to exercise common sense nor find reasonable
> solutions to these occurences. and if they were sued and settled (because
> someone figured out they were acting stupidly, if legally) then well and
> good.
>
> btw I avoid air travel whenever possible, and if I do have to travel I fly
> by the cheapest fare I can find because I believe the airlines are not
> deserving of my business because of their arrogance. how about you?
>
> .
>
>
 
"George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
news:C5qLj.2344$h75.737@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> Lamont Cranston wrote:
>> SlackJaw wrote:
>>> Gandalf Grey wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the first in a two-part series of columns by the author on
>>>> the lack of legal protection for airline passengers. -- JT
>>>>
>>>> Several years ago, I was stuck on an airplane that sat on the tarmac
>>>> for just over three hours before taking off.
>>>
>>> I've has that experience too. But, what can you do about it?
>>>
>>> I've taken to driving everywhere now - it's cheaper and less hassle.

>>
>> It's not cheaper. You can fly from Los Angeles to New York and back for
>> $400 to $600. If you get 30 miles a gallon, it would cost you over $1000
>> in gasoline for the same trip. Add wear and tear and depreciation to
>> that and you're looking at about $1500.

>
> Add to that the cost of food and lodging.


perhaps we need more government programs to help people face such dire
financial consequences.... maybe Hilliary and Obama can propose a Department
of Everything Costs Too Much



..
 
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