...Americans going to India to get their jobs back

H

Harry Hope

Guest
Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
of such applications seeking work visa.

Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
has been gradually increasing.

...........................................................................................................

Figures made available indicated the Indian Embassy in Washington
issued about 300 work visas in past two years, while Houston Consulate
down South issued nearly 100;

indicating India is gradually emerging as employment destination for
the Americans as job opportunities in the US has increasingly been
shrinking in past two years.

This is widely being attributed to the recent economic recession here
which has resulted in job loss in thousands, wherein US multinationals
have shifted their work oversees mainly to countries like India and
China.


http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080044950

Americans seek employment in India

Tuesday, March 25, 2008 (New York)

Robert Durbin was looking nervous when he went to the India Visa
services centre in Manhattan this past week.

With a professional degree in Information Technology from New York
University last year, Durbin has been desperately looking for a job
for the past six months; but unsuccessful so far, primarily because US
companies these days have been cutting jobs rather than recruiting new
people.

After months of job search, the only place Durbin received a job offer
was from a Bangalore-based IT major this month.

''I am here to apply for my work visa to India,'' Durbin told
NDTV.com, standing outside the India Visa Services Centre in
Manhattan, to which the Indian Embassy and Consulates have outsourced
visa-processing system.

Durbin, requesting his identity not be disclosed till he joins the job
in Bangalore next month, said he was nervous as he did not know if he
will get the work visa or not.

''I hope, I will,'' he said, as he went inside to submit his
applications.

________________________________________________

Surprised? I'm not.

Harry
 
"Harry Dope" <Dems-R-Vile@earthlink.net> wrote in news:47ea43dd$0$1086
$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> More lies from Soro's shill Hope.
>
>
>

Weak commentary from a devout communist like yourself, Bizzaro. I think I
just start calling you "Bizzaro Harry the Red". Or do you guys prefer
"Marxist"? Commie?
 
"Harry Hope" <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:igfku31np9t0lvfee8p9t41bl7badajcd5@4ax.com...
>
> Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
> of such applications seeking work visa.
>
> Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
> the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
> has been gradually increasing.
>



Mean while American high-tech companies refuse to hire Americans - they are
all hiring foreign new-grads and the republicans have opened the doors so
there is no limit.
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:11 -0400, Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
>of such applications seeking work visa.
>
>Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
>the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
>has been gradually increasing.


The PAY can't be real good though ... at least for most
kinds of jobs.

Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
so they can take even more US jobs.

That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?
 
"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
news:47ea601b.10689484@news.east.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:11 -0400, Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
>>of such applications seeking work visa.
>>
>>Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
>>the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
>>has been gradually increasing.

>
> The PAY can't be real good though ... at least for most
> kinds of jobs.
>
> Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
> experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
> so they can take even more US jobs.
>
> That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?
>


**** my company gave a number of guys in my group a "vacation" in India to
train people to take american jobs...
 
John wrote:
> "B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
> news:47ea601b.10689484@news.east.earthlink.net...
>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:11 -0400, Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
>>> of such applications seeking work visa.
>>>
>>> Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
>>> the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
>>> has been gradually increasing.

>> The PAY can't be real good though ... at least for most
>> kinds of jobs.
>>
>> Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
>> experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
>> so they can take even more US jobs.
>>
>> That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?
>>

>
> **** my company gave a number of guys in my group a "vacation" in India to
> train people to take american jobs...
>
>
>

Some companies here tell employees to spend time training their
outsourced replacements via computer and phone. If they refuse they are
told they will not get severance pay and since they are often at will
employees they are stuck.
I worked at a company once that hired the Dilbert consultants. They
told management to layoff people,cut the remaining salaries and raise
prices. One employee was told that she could continue working until she
finished her current projects. She went out to lunch,cashed her check at
the companies bank and never returned.
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:57:54 -0400, "John" <nyob@justspam.com> wrote:

>
>"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>news:47ea601b.10689484@news.east.earthlink.net...
>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:11 -0400, Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
>>>of such applications seeking work visa.
>>>
>>>Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
>>>the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
>>>has been gradually increasing.

>>
>> The PAY can't be real good though ... at least for most
>> kinds of jobs.
>>
>> Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
>> experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
>> so they can take even more US jobs.
>>
>> That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?
>>

>
>**** my company gave a number of guys in my group a "vacation" in India to
>train people to take american jobs...


HEY ! Maybe there needs to be a new web site ...

"http://EconomicTraitorsGallery.com"

Photos & data on CEOs/B-o-Ds/execs/privateers/politicians
who are actively facilitating the export of American jobs
to "cheap" countries.

There could even be a "Top 10" or "Americas Most Unwanted" list.

Maybe your CEO would be on it ! :)

Hmmm ... actually ... this isn't a bad idea. It would
focus the issue and shine unwanted light on the problem
and its principle actors. A wall of shame ... with
suggestions about how to thwart/boycott/dis-elect etc..

And a big plus - All-American companies can pay for ad space !
Companies/pols/individuals who have done the most to STOP
the various forms of 'outsourcing' can get on the "American
Heros" sub-page.

All in all, the tone and language should be similar to if
you were talking about military traitors, spies and saboteurs
in wartime - the full Benedict Arnold treatment. It is a
kind of warfare after all ... with many casualties.

I formally donate this idea to the public domain.

I think I'll re-write just a tad and re-post as a new topic.
Someone with the right resources will be interested :)
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:02:38 -0700, George Grapman
<sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:

>John wrote:
>> "B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>> news:47ea601b.10689484@news.east.earthlink.net...
>>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:11 -0400, Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
>>>> of such applications seeking work visa.
>>>>
>>>> Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
>>>> the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
>>>> has been gradually increasing.
>>> The PAY can't be real good though ... at least for most
>>> kinds of jobs.
>>>
>>> Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
>>> experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
>>> so they can take even more US jobs.
>>>
>>> That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?
>>>

>>
>> **** my company gave a number of guys in my group a "vacation" in India to
>> train people to take american jobs...
>>
>>
>>

> Some companies here tell employees to spend time training their
>outsourced replacements via computer and phone. If they refuse they are
>told they will not get severance pay and since they are often at will
>employees they are stuck.


There ARE times for sabotage or even violence, you know ...

> I worked at a company once that hired the Dilbert consultants. They
>told management to layoff people,cut the remaining salaries and raise
>prices. One employee was told that she could continue working until she
>finished her current projects. She went out to lunch,cashed her check at
>the companies bank and never returned.
 
B1ackwater wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:02:38 -0700, George Grapman
> <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> John wrote:
>>> "B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>>> news:47ea601b.10689484@news.east.earthlink.net...
>>>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:11 -0400, Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
>>>>> of such applications seeking work visa.
>>>>>
>>>>> Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
>>>>> the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
>>>>> has been gradually increasing.
>>>> The PAY can't be real good though ... at least for most
>>>> kinds of jobs.
>>>>
>>>> Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
>>>> experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
>>>> so they can take even more US jobs.
>>>>
>>>> That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?
>>>>
>>> **** my company gave a number of guys in my group a "vacation" in India to
>>> train people to take american jobs...
>>>
>>>
>>>

>> Some companies here tell employees to spend time training their
>> outsourced replacements via computer and phone. If they refuse they are
>> told they will not get severance pay and since they are often at will
>> employees they are stuck.

>
> There ARE times for sabotage or even violence, you know ...





I worked in an office with a business owner and 5 sales reps. We
came in on a Monday morning to find notes on our desks from the owner
telling us that due to a lack of sales we had all been terminated. It
said she was sorry she could not tell us personally but she had a
business meeting. This labeled her as a coward (not telling us in
person) and a fool (leaving fired employees by themselves).
Among other thing she had emptied all our desks of anything relating
to business. For some reason I had cleaned up my desk on Friday and in
anticipation of reorganizing things and placed everything in my locked
brief case which was sitting on the floor. I immediately called up a
competitor and an hour later I was using those contacts for the new company.
The only loss the owner suffered was the fired people making phone calls.
>
>> I worked at a company once that hired the Dilbert consultants. They
>> told management to layoff people,cut the remaining salaries and raise
>> prices. One employee was told that she could continue working until she
>> finished her current projects. She went out to lunch,cashed her check at
>> the companies bank and never returned.

>
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:17:27 GMT, George Grapman
<sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:

>B1ackwater wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:02:38 -0700, George Grapman
>> <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> John wrote:
>>>> "B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:47ea601b.10689484@news.east.earthlink.net...
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:11 -0400, Harry Hope <rivrvu@ix.netcom.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of late, the Consulate in New York has been experiencing a steady flow
>>>>>> of such applications seeking work visa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though, India might still not be a hot destination for foreigners like
>>>>>> the US is for Indians for jobs, Kumar said applications for work visa
>>>>>> has been gradually increasing.
>>>>> The PAY can't be real good though ... at least for most
>>>>> kinds of jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
>>>>> experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
>>>>> so they can take even more US jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?
>>>>>
>>>> **** my company gave a number of guys in my group a "vacation" in India to
>>>> train people to take american jobs...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Some companies here tell employees to spend time training their
>>> outsourced replacements via computer and phone. If they refuse they are
>>> told they will not get severance pay and since they are often at will
>>> employees they are stuck.

>>
>> There ARE times for sabotage or even violence, you know ...

>
>
>
>
> I worked in an office with a business owner and 5 sales reps. We
>came in on a Monday morning to find notes on our desks from the owner
>telling us that due to a lack of sales we had all been terminated. It
>said she was sorry she could not tell us personally but she had a
>business meeting. This labeled her as a coward (not telling us in
>person) and a fool (leaving fired employees by themselves).
> Among other thing she had emptied all our desks of anything relating
>to business. For some reason I had cleaned up my desk on Friday and in
>anticipation of reorganizing things and placed everything in my locked
>brief case which was sitting on the floor. I immediately called up a
>competitor and an hour later I was using those contacts for the new company.
> The only loss the owner suffered was the fired people making phone calls.



She'd claim you profited from "her" contacts ... but tough.

Wise IT tekkies are known to leave 'time bombs' on corporate
computer systems ... that need to be disarmed on a periodic
basis ... in case they're rudely terminated. Bootable CDs
that are only used once in awhile are a good way to evade
sweeps by sabotage-fixing experts - just drop that quarterly-
report CD in the VPs briefcase. Programmers can write complex
code that nobody can maintain except themselves. Financial
people can leave fatally misleading information on their
machines ... that they'll fix JUST before a report is due.
Then there are all the permits, permissions and coordinating
junk that construction firms and such have to do - that wise
workers can leave UN-done until the last possible second. In
short there are MANY ways to punish an evil employer ... alas
people who get fired tend not to discriminate between 'evil'
and 'just' termination, they just get angry.

And the abovementioned case where employees were instructed to
train their Indian replacements ... didja ever see the Monty
Python episode about the intentionally-wrong Hungarian-English
phrase book ? :)

Of course a "sack party" for the boss wouldn't be entirely
out of line either ...

So long as workers act like sheep they'll keep winding up
as a mutton & mint jelly dinner. The labor movements,
starting in the late 1800s, SHOULD have made workers wiser.
Seems to have worn off. Owners/managers DO have considerable
moral rights - THEIR idea, THEIR business, THEIR money - but
they CAN do utterly reprehensible things which totally strip
them of the moral highground and any shred of respectability.
Money IS important, but it's not everything .
 
B1ackwater wrote:
obs.
>
> Native engish-speakers with business/sales/tech-support
> experience might be a hot item however - to train Indians
> so they can take even more US jobs.
>
> That would make them "economic traitors" then, wouldn't it ?


You can not blame unemployed people being desperate to pay the mortgage to
save their home. They do what they have to do to feed their own families.

The one to blame are the idiot politicians who still refuse to bring
regulations in order to save the US economy from the criminal CEOs and rich
shareholders pushing for more cheap labor.

The one to blame are the idiots neocon and libertarian crowd who still
spread the lie that tax cuts for the wealthy and more
unbalanced/unregulated trade agreements is what we need.

To blame are every single CEO and shareholder who spend money to lobby for
the corporate interest and against the interest of the people.

To blame are every single pathetic writer from Wall-Street Journal, Cato &
Misses Institute, Fox News, conservative radio stations and other tabloids
like them who serve only corporate interests and fight against the interest
of the nation.

Don't even try to blame the small guy desperate to give a piece of bread to
his kids. e need to focus on the big sharks out there.

--
The world of the future will be fully democratic or will not be at all.

Democracy Highlander

P.S.:
When I say "democratic", I use the word democratic coming from democracy not
from Democratic party. I am not connected in any way with Democratic party
and if they fail to do as promised and cut corporate corruption I have no
problem to turn on them and blog against them too.
 
"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
news:47eab497.32316718@news.east.earthlink.net...
>
> So long as workers act like sheep they'll keep winding up
> as a mutton & mint jelly dinner. The labor movements,
> starting in the late 1800s, SHOULD have made workers wiser.
> Seems to have worn off.


Yes it has - I pointed out to some folks a while back the ONLY reason they
get vacation, paid sick days, retirement fund, medical, etc is the UNIONS!.
Yes the unions got too big and powerful and like any power drunk
organization forgot who it was that they served. Also once people started
getting college degrees in mass, got into the labor market and found out
they were only making a small percentage more than un-skilled labor,
everyone excepted the fact that unions were evil!

So here we sit the pendulum has swung to far to the right, time to start
organizing labor again!
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:37:52 -0400, "John" <nyob@justspam.com> wrote:

>
>"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>news:47eab497.32316718@news.east.earthlink.net...
>>
>> So long as workers act like sheep they'll keep winding up
>> as a mutton & mint jelly dinner. The labor movements,
>> starting in the late 1800s, SHOULD have made workers wiser.
>> Seems to have worn off.

>
>Yes it has - I pointed out to some folks a while back the ONLY reason they
>get vacation, paid sick days, retirement fund, medical, etc is the UNIONS!.
>Yes the unions got too big and powerful and like any power drunk
>organization forgot who it was that they served. Also once people started
>getting college degrees in mass, got into the labor market and found out
>they were only making a small percentage more than un-skilled labor,
>everyone excepted the fact that unions were evil!
>
>So here we sit the pendulum has swung to far to the right, time to start
>organizing labor again!


But how do you keep the commies and gangsters OUT of
the unions ? Seems like all the old unions, no matter
how good their original intentions, wound up being
run by bent-noses with a bulge under their expensive
jackets.

Another good complaint is that unions got far too into
"make-work" strategies ... a couple redundant 'workers'
for everyone who actually DID anything.

Then there's the total insensitivity to economic realities -
Unions demanding super-high wages from industries on the
verge of collapse. The UAW comes to mind ...

In the end, these sorts of things ENCOURAGED companies to
'outsource' or relocate entirely.

So, be careful when you say you want more labor organizing.
The ultimate effect may be 180-degrees opposite to your
original intent. IMHO, future unions need to have a very
different 'look & feel' than their olde-tyme predecessors.
 
"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
news:47eb8874.3916218@news.east.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:37:52 -0400, "John" <nyob@justspam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>>news:47eab497.32316718@news.east.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> So long as workers act like sheep they'll keep winding up
>>> as a mutton & mint jelly dinner. The labor movements,
>>> starting in the late 1800s, SHOULD have made workers wiser.
>>> Seems to have worn off.

>>
>>Yes it has - I pointed out to some folks a while back the ONLY reason they
>>get vacation, paid sick days, retirement fund, medical, etc is the
>>UNIONS!.
>>Yes the unions got too big and powerful and like any power drunk
>>organization forgot who it was that they served. Also once people started
>>getting college degrees in mass, got into the labor market and found out
>>they were only making a small percentage more than un-skilled labor,
>>everyone excepted the fact that unions were evil!
>>
>>So here we sit the pendulum has swung to far to the right, time to start
>>organizing labor again!

>
> But how do you keep the commies and gangsters OUT of
> the unions ? Seems like all the old unions, no matter
> how good their original intentions, wound up being
> run by bent-noses with a bulge under their expensive
> jackets.
>
> Another good complaint is that unions got far too into
> "make-work" strategies ... a couple redundant 'workers'
> for everyone who actually DID anything.
>
> Then there's the total insensitivity to economic realities -
> Unions demanding super-high wages from industries on the
> verge of collapse. The UAW comes to mind ...
>
> In the end, these sorts of things ENCOURAGED companies to
> 'outsource' or relocate entirely.
>
> So, be careful when you say you want more labor organizing.
> The ultimate effect may be 180-degrees opposite to your
> original intent. IMHO, future unions need to have a very
> different 'look & feel' than their olde-tyme predecessors.
>


yes everything you say is valid which I shortened to :
" like any power drunk organization forgot who it was that they served."

I have a LOT of stories from people that I know personally about the UAW,
how they dictated not only which workers to keep, but what was considered a
days work, all of which I strongly opposed.
here is just one example - my brother used to push a broom in an auto plant
and made about $15/hr back in the 70's, a LOT of money! One night he swept
some metal shaving out from under a machine which no one was working at - he
was reported because the machinist was supposed to push the shavings out!
The machinist got an extra 4 hours pay because someone did his job and my
brother got reprimanded for pushing a broom!

But the fact remains - if corporations had not been forced by the unions, to
provide benefits, most workers would not have any in the USA.

I agree future unions would need to focus on workers rights and benefits and
forget about micro-managing businesses, as long as OSHA has some teeth to
prevent slave labor camps..
 
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:34:56 -0400, "John" <nyob@justspam.com> wrote:

>
>"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>news:47eb8874.3916218@news.east.earthlink.net...
>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:37:52 -0400, "John" <nyob@justspam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B1ackwater" <bw@barrk.net> wrote in message
>>>news:47eab497.32316718@news.east.earthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>> So long as workers act like sheep they'll keep winding up
>>>> as a mutton & mint jelly dinner. The labor movements,
>>>> starting in the late 1800s, SHOULD have made workers wiser.
>>>> Seems to have worn off.
>>>
>>>Yes it has - I pointed out to some folks a while back the ONLY reason they
>>>get vacation, paid sick days, retirement fund, medical, etc is the
>>>UNIONS!.
>>>Yes the unions got too big and powerful and like any power drunk
>>>organization forgot who it was that they served. Also once people started
>>>getting college degrees in mass, got into the labor market and found out
>>>they were only making a small percentage more than un-skilled labor,
>>>everyone excepted the fact that unions were evil!
>>>
>>>So here we sit the pendulum has swung to far to the right, time to start
>>>organizing labor again!

>>
>> But how do you keep the commies and gangsters OUT of
>> the unions ? Seems like all the old unions, no matter
>> how good their original intentions, wound up being
>> run by bent-noses with a bulge under their expensive
>> jackets.
>>
>> Another good complaint is that unions got far too into
>> "make-work" strategies ... a couple redundant 'workers'
>> for everyone who actually DID anything.
>>
>> Then there's the total insensitivity to economic realities -
>> Unions demanding super-high wages from industries on the
>> verge of collapse. The UAW comes to mind ...
>>
>> In the end, these sorts of things ENCOURAGED companies to
>> 'outsource' or relocate entirely.
>>
>> So, be careful when you say you want more labor organizing.
>> The ultimate effect may be 180-degrees opposite to your
>> original intent. IMHO, future unions need to have a very
>> different 'look & feel' than their olde-tyme predecessors.
>>

>
>yes everything you say is valid which I shortened to :
>" like any power drunk organization forgot who it was that they served."
>
>I have a LOT of stories from people that I know personally about the UAW,
>how they dictated not only which workers to keep, but what was considered a
>days work, all of which I strongly opposed.


They were behaving like, well, just like what they
were ... mafioso thugs used to having things THEIR
way - or ELSE. The object was to make money and hold
power, for the thugs, not so much the membership.

But the original organizers weren't mafia - the gangs
infiltrated later on, once they realized there was a
long-term cash cow there to exploit.

How do we keep them out of future unions and/or union-like
organizations ? It's gonna be REALLY HARD.

>here is just one example - my brother used to push a broom in an auto plant
>and made about $15/hr back in the 70's, a LOT of money! One night he swept
>some metal shaving out from under a machine which no one was working at - he
>was reported because the machinist was supposed to push the shavings out!
>The machinist got an extra 4 hours pay because someone did his job and my
>brother got reprimanded for pushing a broom!


That sort of thinking goes back to the days of the
trade guilds ... everybody marked-out their specific,
rigid 'territory'. The carpenters do 'A','B' and 'C' ;
the masons do 'D','E' and 'F' ; the metalworkers do
'G','H' and 'I' - and that's that, no cross-over labor
allowed unless you wanted people stabbed in the alleyways.

The unions picked-up where the guilds left off, but wound
up incorporating a lot of their peculiarities. Many unions
still employ the old 'apprentice'/'journeyman'/'master'
system of the guilds as well - a direct link to medieval,
pre-medieval, training and organizational practices.

Exclusive control of vital talent was a way for the guilds
to gain considerable power and wealth. The king may be the
king, but if he wants his castle built, well, he goes
begging to the craft guilds and pays their price or he'll
be using a tree stump as a throne and a pile of dung
as his castle.

>But the fact remains - if corporations had not been forced by the unions, to
>provide benefits, most workers would not have any in the USA.


True - but then again those benifits were also taken away
by those same unions ... when their demands forced the
companies overseas. No benifits then, or wages either.
The union WILL want its dues every month though ...

As the Buddha would say, there's a happy medium in there
somewhere. Alas, the power-drunk - be they the bosses or
the union leaders - cease to be interested in the middle
way. They want it ALL.

>I agree future unions would need to focus on workers rights and benefits and
>forget about micro-managing businesses, as long as OSHA has some teeth to
>prevent slave labor camps..


Well, it's possible now to run an OSHA-compliant operation
that, for all practical purposes, is still a 'slave labor
camp'. A nominally 'safe' and 'healthy' slave labor camp,
but still ...

It's just as bad for government to try and micro-manage
business as it is for the labor unions to do so. I'm afraid
the safest place for input still lies with the workers
themselves. Alas, to have teeth, they have to organize and
build-up a war chest. Then the thugs move in ....

In some sort of dictatorship, the thugs can be identified
and shot dead in the nearest alleyway without any annoying
stuff like 'trials', 'proof', 'lawyers' or 'due process'.
The same constitutional rules that protect We The People
from excesses of govt power ALSO protect the thugs. This
makes them incredibly difficult to deal with. Once they
get their hooks into politicians and judges - totally
impossible to eliminate, barely possible to even control.

Call it one of those 'systemic flaws' of democracy which
filter down and exacerbate some systemic flaws in business
and labor organization.

No perfect solutions. MAYbe some "good enough" ones though ...
 
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