Another day, another 25 dead in Iraq

Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

soldier were wounded in the attack.

MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in the

attack.

USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

wounds.

Baghdad:

#1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

(IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

#2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

#3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south of

Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect fire"

attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

#4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

7:00 a.m.

#5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

#6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam Street

in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

#7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

council in Mansour.

Diyala Prv:

Khalis:

#1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on Saturday

as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire at

a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a security

source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of al-Khalis

district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

Voices of Iraq

Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00 a.m.

local police of Salam district said.

Hilla:

#1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

#2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party command,

which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

Voices of Iraq

Latifiya:

#1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles) south

of Baghdad, police said.

Mahaweel:

#1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

Samarra:

#1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters of

the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident took

place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground forces

to their base for treatment, the source said.

Kirkuk:

#1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb targeting

an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

morning.

On Mar 22, 3:25 pm, abelincoln <bushsu...@whitehouse.com> wrote:

> talk about a fucking wet dream gone bad.....

Make it 29. Four more Americans reported killed today. Bush and Cheney

are lucky the U.S. isn't a party to the International Criminal Court.

They'd hang alongside Henry Kissinger.

"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

> Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

Bush is giving a speech to the Crawford Saloon.

Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in Iraq

important or not important, and why?

"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

> Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>

> War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>

> MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

> indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

> soldier were wounded in the attack.

>

> MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

> Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

> neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

> were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in the

> attack.

>

> USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

> wounds.

>

> Baghdad:

> #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

> (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

> source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

> southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

> nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

> told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>

> #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

> patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

> his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>

> #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

> soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south of

> Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect fire"

> attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

> refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>

> #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

> explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

> 7:00 a.m.

>

> #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

> Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>

> #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam Street

> in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>

> #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

> Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

> council in Mansour.

>

> Diyala Prv:

> Khalis:

> #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on Saturday

> as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire at

> a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a security

> source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of al-Khalis

> district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

> Voices of Iraq

>

> Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

> civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

> committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

> district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00 a.m.

> local police of Salam district said.

>

> Hilla:

> #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

> km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>

> #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

> others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

> police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

> rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party command,

> which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

> Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

> Voices of Iraq

>

> Latifiya:

> #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles) south

> of Baghdad, police said.

>

> Mahaweel:

> #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

> in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>

> Samarra:

> #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

> Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters of

> the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident took

> place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

> Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

> condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

> by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground forces

> to their base for treatment, the source said.

>

> Kirkuk:

> #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

> civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb targeting

> an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

> sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

> of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>

> A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

> explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

> morning.

>

On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in Iraq

> important or not important, and why?

>

> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>

> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>

> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>

> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>

> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>

> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in the

> > attack.

>

> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

> > wounds.

>

> > Baghdad:

> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>

> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>

> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south of

> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect fire"

> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>

> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

> > 7:00 a.m.

>

> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>

> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam Street

> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>

> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

> > council in Mansour.

>

> > Diyala Prv:

> > Khalis:

> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on Saturday

> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire at

> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a security

> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of al-Khalis

> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

> > Voices of Iraq

>

> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00 a.m.

> > local police of Salam district said.

>

> > Hilla:

> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>

> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party command,

> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

> > Voices of Iraq

>

> > Latifiya:

> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles) south

> > of Baghdad, police said.

>

> > Mahaweel:

> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>

> > Samarra:

> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters of

> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident took

> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground forces

> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>

> > Kirkuk:

> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb targeting

> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>

> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

> > morning.

"Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would be

(a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

(a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

how you're defining "success" at this point.

"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in

>> Iraq

>> important or not important, and why?

>>

>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>

>> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>>

>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>>

>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>>

>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>>

>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

>> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

>> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in the

>> > attack.

>>

>> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

>> > wounds.

>>

>> > Baghdad:

>> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

>> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

>> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

>> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

>> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

>> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>>

>> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

>> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

>> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>>

>> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

>> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south of

>> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect fire"

>> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

>> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>>

>> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

>> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

>> > 7:00 a.m.

>>

>> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

>> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>>

>> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam Street

>> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>>

>> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

>> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

>> > council in Mansour.

>>

>> > Diyala Prv:

>> > Khalis:

>> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on Saturday

>> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire at

>> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a security

>> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of al-Khalis

>> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

>> > Voices of Iraq

>>

>> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

>> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

>> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

>> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00 a.m.

>> > local police of Salam district said.

>>

>> > Hilla:

>> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

>> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>

>> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

>> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

>> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

>> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party command,

>> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

>> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

>> > Voices of Iraq

>>

>> > Latifiya:

>> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles) south

>> > of Baghdad, police said.

>>

>> > Mahaweel:

>> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

>> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>

>> > Samarra:

>> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

>> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters of

>> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident took

>> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

>> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

>> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

>> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground forces

>> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>>

>> > Kirkuk:

>> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

>> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb targeting

>> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

>> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

>> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>>

>> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

>> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

>> > morning.

>

> "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would be

> (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

> and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

> (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

> year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

> how you're defining "success" at this point.

Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have not

succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in time,

and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving demcoracy, that is

still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed "if" the insurgency is not

defeated. As for the "cost" problem, if you are concerned about the cost,

then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR, because you can never know in advance

what is going to happen when you go to war. So, we are back to my original

question. Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? The answer

to that question is critical to what we should now do. If success is

important, then you do what is required to achieve success. If success is

not important, then we should leave IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of

benchmark to be achieved, not wait three, or six months, because success is

not important. So, what is the answer to the question?

"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

news:47e807c3$0$6507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>

> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

> news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

>> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in

>>> Iraq

>>> important or not important, and why?

>>>

>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>

>>> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>>>

>>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>>>

>>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>>>

>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

>>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

>>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>>>

>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

>>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

>>> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

>>> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in the

>>> > attack.

>>>

>>> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

>>> > wounds.

>>>

>>> > Baghdad:

>>> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

>>> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

>>> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

>>> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

>>> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

>>> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>>>

>>> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

>>> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

>>> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>>>

>>> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

>>> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south of

>>> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect fire"

>>> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

>>> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>>>

>>> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

>>> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

>>> > 7:00 a.m.

>>>

>>> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

>>> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>>>

>>> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam Street

>>> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>>>

>>> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

>>> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

>>> > council in Mansour.

>>>

>>> > Diyala Prv:

>>> > Khalis:

>>> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on Saturday

>>> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire at

>>> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a security

>>> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of al-Khalis

>>> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>

>>> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

>>> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

>>> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

>>> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00 a.m.

>>> > local police of Salam district said.

>>>

>>> > Hilla:

>>> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

>>> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>

>>> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

>>> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

>>> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

>>> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party command,

>>> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

>>> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>

>>> > Latifiya:

>>> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles) south

>>> > of Baghdad, police said.

>>>

>>> > Mahaweel:

>>> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

>>> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>

>>> > Samarra:

>>> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

>>> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters of

>>> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident took

>>> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

>>> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

>>> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

>>> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground forces

>>> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>>>

>>> > Kirkuk:

>>> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

>>> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb targeting

>>> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

>>> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

>>> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>>>

>>> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

>>> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

>>> > morning.

>>

>> "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would be

>> (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

>> and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

>> (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

>> year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

>> how you're defining "success" at this point.

>

> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have not

> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in

> time, and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving demcoracy,

> that is still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed "if" the

> insurgency is not defeated. As for the "cost" problem, if you are

> concerned about the cost, then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR, because you

> can never know in advance what is going to happen when you go to war. So,

> we are back to my original question. Is success in Iraq important or is

> it not important? The answer to that question is critical to what we

> should now do. If success is important, then you do what is required to

> achieve success. If success is not important, then we should leave

> IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of benchmark to be achieved, not wait

> three, or six months, because success is not important. So, what is the

> answer to the question?

Is it worth it?

(Whatever you define as "success")

On 24 Mar, 19:58, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have not

> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in time,

> and why?

Success as defined by the U.S, i.e. a stable and peaceful democratic

Iraq, is not possible. Iraq is not a nation in the sense that France

or Germany are nations consisting of one peoples. Furthermore, the

post WW2 reconstruction efforts in Germany and Japan were made a lot

easier by the fact that those countries were ethnically and religously

homogenous. Iraq, OTOH, was a post WW1 artificially created country

and consists of three different peoples who don't want to be held

together, and were only kept together through the application of force

that for decades achieved a mostly stable internal balance of power.

Saddam was the last in a long line of Sunni-dominate dictators; once

he went the status quo went with him forever.

The problem was the Neocons did not understand ANY of this - they

viewed Iraq as they hoped it would be - not as it was in reality. They

continued to talk about an Iraq that was one nation, as if the three

peoples comprising Iraq wanted to be held together. In fact nothing

was further from the truth. The majority Shiites want to be close to

Iran and are happy to be ruled in the form of a theocracy similar to

that in Tehran; the Sunnis are still seething from their loss of power

since the fall of Saddam and would be happy to have their own separate

little state in the center of Iraq and will have nothing to do with

the Shiites who they consider apostates. The Kurds want, and almost

already have, their own state in the North - why would the Kurds want

to have anything to do with Arab Iraq when it was the Arabs under

Saddam who tried to ethnically cleanse them? The Kurds hate Iraq and

aren't shy in saying so.

>As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving demcoracy, that is

> still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed "if" the insurgency is not

> defeated.

The insurgency is only one problem. The main problem is that the U.S

cannot bring a halt to this civil war. It's impossible. And without

doing so they will never create an Iraq that is a sucess as laid out

prior to the invasion.

>As for the "cost" problem, if you are concerned about the cost,

> then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR, because you can never know in advance

> what is going to happen when you go to war.

But there were people who predicted that the war would cost more than

anticipated, but they were ridiculed by Rumsfeld when they said so.

There were also people who claimed that invading Iraq could result in

a civil war, but anyone who said so was ignored by the Bush

administration and excluded from the post-war planning process.

The Neocons have consistently favoured ideology over facts and

reasoned logic. Many of the people they appointed to positions

designed to achieve successful post-war outcomes in Iraq were chosen

on the basis that they had affiliations with and/or were strong

supporters of the Republican party. Having knowledge of Iraq and the

Arab world was NOT a requirement to being selected for helping out

with the post-war reconstruction effort - being a loyal Republican was

the sole criterion for recruiting to such positions. In fact having

knowlege of the Middle East would actually make people less likely to

be selected to such roles because such individuals would be more able

to point out the flaws and lack of viabilty of the Bush

administration's post-war plans.

IOW, the Bush administration wanted loyal "yes men" to help rebuild

Iraq - these people couldn't do anything other than fuck everything up

because they had no hope of running a country they didn't understand.

>So, we are back to my original

> question. Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? The answer

> to that question is critical to what we should now do. If success is

> important, then you do what is required to achieve success. If success is

> not important, then we should leave IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of

> benchmark to be achieved, not wait three, or six months, because success is

> not important. So, what is the answer to the question?

Success as defined by the Bush administration prior to the war was

never possible - they picked the wrong country to try and impose

democracy on. In fact, their choice of country was absolutely the

worst possible.

"Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:mPTFj.9517$Q52.1498@bignews9.bellsouth.net...

>

>

> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

> news:47e807c3$0$6507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>

>> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

>>> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in

>>>> Iraq

>>>> important or not important, and why?

>>>>

>>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>

>>>> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>>>>

>>>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>>>>

>>>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>>>>

>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

>>>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

>>>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>>>>

>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

>>>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

>>>> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

>>>> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in the

>>>> > attack.

>>>>

>>>> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

>>>> > wounds.

>>>>

>>>> > Baghdad:

>>>> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

>>>> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

>>>> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

>>>> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

>>>> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

>>>> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>>>>

>>>> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

>>>> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

>>>> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>>>>

>>>> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

>>>> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south of

>>>> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect fire"

>>>> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

>>>> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>>>>

>>>> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

>>>> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

>>>> > 7:00 a.m.

>>>>

>>>> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

>>>> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>>>>

>>>> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam Street

>>>> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>>>>

>>>> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

>>>> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

>>>> > council in Mansour.

>>>>

>>>> > Diyala Prv:

>>>> > Khalis:

>>>> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on Saturday

>>>> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire

>>>> > at

>>>> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a

>>>> > security

>>>> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of al-Khalis

>>>> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>

>>>> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

>>>> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

>>>> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

>>>> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00 a.m.

>>>> > local police of Salam district said.

>>>>

>>>> > Hilla:

>>>> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

>>>> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>

>>>> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

>>>> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

>>>> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

>>>> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party

>>>> > command,

>>>> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

>>>> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>

>>>> > Latifiya:

>>>> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles)

>>>> > south

>>>> > of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>

>>>> > Mahaweel:

>>>> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

>>>> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>

>>>> > Samarra:

>>>> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

>>>> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters of

>>>> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident

>>>> > took

>>>> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

>>>> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

>>>> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

>>>> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground forces

>>>> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>>>>

>>>> > Kirkuk:

>>>> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

>>>> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb

>>>> > targeting

>>>> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

>>>> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

>>>> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>>>>

>>>> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

>>>> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

>>>> > morning.

>>>

>>> "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would be

>>> (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

>>> and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

>>> (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

>>> year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

>>> how you're defining "success" at this point.

>>

>> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have not

>> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

>> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in

>> time, and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving demcoracy,

>> that is still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed "if" the

>> insurgency is not defeated. As for the "cost" problem, if you are

>> concerned about the cost, then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR, because you

>> can never know in advance what is going to happen when you go to war.

>> So, we are back to my original question. Is success in Iraq important or

>> is it not important? The answer to that question is critical to what we

>> should now do. If success is important, then you do what is required to

>> achieve success. If success is not important, then we should leave

>> IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of benchmark to be achieved, not wait

>> three, or six months, because success is not important. So, what is the

>> answer to the question?

>

> Is it worth it?

> (Whatever you define as "success")

>

Depends on whether one believes that success is important. "If" success is

not important, then it is not worth it. So, what is your answer to my

question?

"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:bf7252e9-e05c-4fd0-89bf-c374c32ab56f@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 24, 3:58 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>

> news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

>

>

>

>

>

> > On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> >> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in

> >> Iraq

> >> important or not important, and why?

>

> >> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>

> >>news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>

> >> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>

> >> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>

> >> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

> >> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

> >> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>

> >> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

> >> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

> >> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

> >> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in the

> >> > attack.

>

> >> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

> >> > wounds.

>

> >> > Baghdad:

> >> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

> >> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

> >> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

> >> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

> >> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

> >> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>

> >> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

> >> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

> >> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>

> >> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

> >> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south of

> >> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect fire"

> >> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

> >> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>

> >> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

> >> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

> >> > 7:00 a.m.

>

> >> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

> >> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>

> >> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam Street

> >> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>

> >> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

> >> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

> >> > council in Mansour.

>

> >> > Diyala Prv:

> >> > Khalis:

> >> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on Saturday

> >> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire

> >> > at

> >> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a

> >> > security

> >> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of al-Khalis

> >> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

> >> > Voices of Iraq

>

> >> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

> >> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

> >> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

> >> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00 a.m.

> >> > local police of Salam district said.

>

> >> > Hilla:

> >> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

> >> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>

> >> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

> >> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

> >> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

> >> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party

> >> > command,

> >> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

> >> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

> >> > Voices of Iraq

>

> >> > Latifiya:

> >> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles)

> >> > south

> >> > of Baghdad, police said.

>

> >> > Mahaweel:

> >> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

> >> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>

> >> > Samarra:

> >> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

> >> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters of

> >> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident

> >> > took

> >> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

> >> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

> >> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

> >> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground forces

> >> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>

> >> > Kirkuk:

> >> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

> >> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb

> >> > targeting

> >> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

> >> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

> >> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>

> >> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

> >> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

> >> > morning.

>

> > "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would be

> > (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

> > and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

> > (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

> > year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

> > how you're defining "success" at this point.

>

> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have not

> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in

> time,

> and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving demcoracy, that is

> still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed "if" the insurgency is not

> defeated. As for the "cost" problem, if you are concerned about the cost,

> then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR, because you can never know in advance

> what is going to happen when you go to war. So, we are back to my original

> question. Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? The answer

> to that question is critical to what we should now do. If success is

> important, then you do what is required to achieve success. If success is

> not important, then we should leave IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of

> benchmark to be achieved, not wait three, or six months, because success

> is

> not important. So, what is the answer to the question?- Hide quoted text -

Define "success."

You are not the first one to try that ploy on me. If you want me to I will

define what I believe success is, but only "if" you will respond to each and

every one of the points I make. Are you ready for the challenge.

"Darn Good Intelligence" <waynetv50@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:84e09207-8893-4cb6-a9bb-fe19fc3bd835@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> On 24 Mar, 19:58, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>

>> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have not

>> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

>> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in

>> time,

>> and why?

>

> Success as defined by the U.S, i.e. a stable and peaceful democratic

> Iraq, is not possible.

That is an opinion which may be correct or it maynot be correct. But that

is not the question I asked. I did not ask if success was possible, I asked

is success important or not important. Can you answer that question?

"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

news:47e8528f$0$12560$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>

> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

> news:mPTFj.9517$Q52.1498@bignews9.bellsouth.net...

>>

>>

>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>> news:47e807c3$0$6507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>

>>> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>> news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

>>>> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>>>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in

>>>>> Iraq

>>>>> important or not important, and why?

>>>>>

>>>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>

>>>>> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>

>>>>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>>>>>

>>>>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>>>>>

>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

>>>>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

>>>>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>>>>>

>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

>>>>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

>>>>> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

>>>>> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in

>>>>> > the

>>>>> > attack.

>>>>>

>>>>> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

>>>>> > wounds.

>>>>>

>>>>> > Baghdad:

>>>>> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

>>>>> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

>>>>> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

>>>>> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

>>>>> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be named,

>>>>> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>>>>>

>>>>> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

>>>>> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

>>>>> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>>>>>

>>>>> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of another

>>>>> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south

>>>>> > of

>>>>> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect

>>>>> > fire"

>>>>> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

>>>>> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>>>>>

>>>>> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

>>>>> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad around

>>>>> > 7:00 a.m.

>>>>>

>>>>> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

>>>>> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>>>>>

>>>>> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam

>>>>> > Street

>>>>> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>>>>>

>>>>> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

>>>>> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

>>>>> > council in Mansour.

>>>>>

>>>>> > Diyala Prv:

>>>>> > Khalis:

>>>>> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on

>>>>> > Saturday

>>>>> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire

>>>>> > at

>>>>> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a

>>>>> > security

>>>>> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of

>>>>> > al-Khalis

>>>>> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>

>>>>> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

>>>>> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

>>>>> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

>>>>> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00

>>>>> > a.m.

>>>>> > local police of Salam district said.

>>>>>

>>>>> > Hilla:

>>>>> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla, 100

>>>>> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>

>>>>> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

>>>>> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

>>>>> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

>>>>> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party

>>>>> > command,

>>>>> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

>>>>> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>

>>>>> > Latifiya:

>>>>> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles)

>>>>> > south

>>>>> > of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>

>>>>> > Mahaweel:

>>>>> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot wounds

>>>>> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>

>>>>> > Samarra:

>>>>> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

>>>>> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters

>>>>> > of

>>>>> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident

>>>>> > took

>>>>> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

>>>>> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

>>>>> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were wounded

>>>>> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground

>>>>> > forces

>>>>> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>>>>>

>>>>> > Kirkuk:

>>>>> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

>>>>> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb

>>>>> > targeting

>>>>> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

>>>>> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the vehicles

>>>>> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>>>>>

>>>>> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

>>>>> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

>>>>> > morning.

>>>>

>>>> "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would be

>>>> (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

>>>> and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

>>>> (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

>>>> year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

>>>> how you're defining "success" at this point.

>>>

>>> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have

>>> not succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question

>>> still stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this

>>> point in time, and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving

>>> demcoracy, that is still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed "if"

>>> the insurgency is not defeated. As for the "cost" problem, if you are

>>> concerned about the cost, then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR, because

>>> you can never know in advance what is going to happen when you go to

>>> war. So, we are back to my original question. Is success in Iraq

>>> important or is it not important? The answer to that question is

>>> critical to what we should now do. If success is important, then you do

>>> what is required to achieve success. If success is not important, then

>>> we should leave IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of benchmark to be

>>> achieved, not wait three, or six months, because success is not

>>> important. So, what is the answer to the question?

>>

>> Is it worth it?

>> (Whatever you define as "success")

>>

>

> Depends on whether one believes that success is important. "If" success

> is not important, then it is not worth it. So, what is your answer to my

> question?

What is this "success" you speak of?

There is no success in this war.

It was ill conceived, poorly

executed and continues to

bleed America both in blood

and treasure.

"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

news:47e85381$0$12574$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>

> "Darn Good Intelligence" <waynetv50@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:84e09207-8893-4cb6-a9bb-fe19fc3bd835@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>> On 24 Mar, 19:58, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have

>>> not

>>> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

>>> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in

>>> time,

>>> and why?

>>

>> Success as defined by the U.S, i.e. a stable and peaceful democratic

>> Iraq, is not possible.

>

> That is an opinion which may be correct or it maynot be correct. But that

> is not the question I asked. I did not ask if success was possible, I

> asked is success important or not important. Can you answer that

> question?

He is defining what you have not defined.

Define "success"

On 25 Mar, 01:21, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> "Darn Good Intelligence" <waynet...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:84e09207-8893-4cb6-a9bb-fe19fc3bd835@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>

> > On 24 Mar, 19:58, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>

> >> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have not

> >> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question still

> >> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in

> >> time,

> >> and why?

>

> > Success as defined by the U.S, i.e. a stable and peaceful democratic

> > Iraq, is not possible.

>

> That is an opinion which may be correct or it maynot be correct. But that

> is not the question I asked. I did not ask if success was possible, I asked

> is success important or not important. Can you answer that question?

Given that you do not accept, despite tonnes of readily available

factual evidence, that the U.S will never turn Iraq into the Arab

world's first peaceful democracy, I would have to say that success in

Iraq is not important because the whole project is a lost cause. The

only question now is how can the U.S get out of Iraq in the least

costly manner both financially and in terms of lives, for those on

both sides. The continued attempt to stay in Iraq to achieve "success"

will only result in more money being wasted and more people and troops

dying in vain. It has long been a futile cause. A complete withdrawal

at a phased and incremental pace is the best way out, imo.

"Darn Good Intelligence" <waynetv50@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:0689668f-78a9-443d-8fdf-1e6426d2ea72@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

> On 25 Mar, 01:21, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>> "Darn Good Intelligence" <waynet...@yahoo.com> wrote in

>> messagenews:84e09207-8893-4cb6-a9bb-fe19fc3bd835@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>>

>> > On 24 Mar, 19:58, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>

>> >> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have

>> >> not

>> >> succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question

>> >> still

>> >> stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this point in

>> >> time,

>> >> and why?

>>

>> > Success as defined by the U.S, i.e. a stable and peaceful democratic

>> > Iraq, is not possible.

>>

>> That is an opinion which may be correct or it maynot be correct. But

>> that

>> is not the question I asked. I did not ask if success was possible, I

>> asked

>> is success important or not important. Can you answer that question?

>

>

> Given that you do not accept, despite tonnes of readily available

> factual evidence, that the U.S will never turn Iraq into the Arab

> world's first peaceful democracy, I would have to say that success in

> Iraq is not important because the whole project is a lost cause. The

> only question now is how can the U.S get out of Iraq in the least

> costly manner both financially and in terms of lives, for those on

> both sides. The continued attempt to stay in Iraq to achieve "success"

> will only result in more money being wasted and more people and troops

> dying in vain. It has long been a futile cause. A complete withdrawal

> at a phased and incremental pace is the best way out, imo.

He has not defined "success"

I claim there can not be "success"

in any form in Iraq because the

entire enterprise was flawed

(doomed) from its very inception.

I agree with you that the best we can

do is minimize any further loss as we

withdraw.

Both Democratic candidates offer such

plans. McCain offers "Stay the course"

the same bush failed slogan.

Jerry Okamura wrote:

> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success in

> Iraq important or not important, and why?

If you think "success" is important, why aren't you over there pitching

in?

--Jeff

--

"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without

formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to

deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree

odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government

whether Nazi or Communist."

- Winston Churchill, Nov. 21, 1943

"Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:06ZFj.24271$dT.16947@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

>

>

> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

> news:47e8528f$0$12560$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>

>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

>> news:mPTFj.9517$Q52.1498@bignews9.bellsouth.net...

>>>

>>>

>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>>> news:47e807c3$0$6507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>>

>>>> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

>>>>> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>>>>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success

>>>>>> in Iraq

>>>>>> important or not important, and why?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>

>>>>>> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

>>>>>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

>>>>>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

>>>>>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

>>>>>> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

>>>>>> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in

>>>>>> > the

>>>>>> > attack.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from his

>>>>>> > wounds.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Baghdad:

>>>>>> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive device

>>>>>> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi police

>>>>>> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

>>>>>> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

>>>>>> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be

>>>>>> > named,

>>>>>> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while on

>>>>>> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later of

>>>>>> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of

>>>>>> > another

>>>>>> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south

>>>>>> > of

>>>>>> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect

>>>>>> > fire"

>>>>>> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

>>>>>> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

>>>>>> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad

>>>>>> > around

>>>>>> > 7:00 a.m.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in al

>>>>>> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam

>>>>>> > Street

>>>>>> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

>>>>>> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

>>>>>> > council in Mansour.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Diyala Prv:

>>>>>> > Khalis:

>>>>>> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on

>>>>>> > Saturday

>>>>>> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened fire

>>>>>> > at

>>>>>> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a

>>>>>> > security

>>>>>> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of

>>>>>> > al-Khalis

>>>>>> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat al-Iraq-

>>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

>>>>>> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

>>>>>> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

>>>>>> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00

>>>>>> > a.m.

>>>>>> > local police of Salam district said.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Hilla:

>>>>>> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla,

>>>>>> > 100

>>>>>> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

>>>>>> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

>>>>>> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

>>>>>> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party

>>>>>> > command,

>>>>>> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

>>>>>> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat al-Iraq -

>>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Latifiya:

>>>>>> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles)

>>>>>> > south

>>>>>> > of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Mahaweel:

>>>>>> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot

>>>>>> > wounds

>>>>>> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Samarra:

>>>>>> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

>>>>>> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters

>>>>>> > of

>>>>>> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident

>>>>>> > took

>>>>>> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

>>>>>> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

>>>>>> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were

>>>>>> > wounded

>>>>>> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground

>>>>>> > forces

>>>>>> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > Kirkuk:

>>>>>> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

>>>>>> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb

>>>>>> > targeting

>>>>>> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

>>>>>> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the

>>>>>> > vehicles

>>>>>> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

>>>>>> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

>>>>>> > morning.

>>>>>

>>>>> "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would be

>>>>> (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

>>>>> and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

>>>>> (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

>>>>> year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

>>>>> how you're defining "success" at this point.

>>>>

>>>> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have

>>>> not succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question

>>>> still stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this

>>>> point in time, and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving

>>>> demcoracy, that is still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed "if"

>>>> the insurgency is not defeated. As for the "cost" problem, if you are

>>>> concerned about the cost, then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR, because

>>>> you can never know in advance what is going to happen when you go to

>>>> war. So, we are back to my original question. Is success in Iraq

>>>> important or is it not important? The answer to that question is

>>>> critical to what we should now do. If success is important, then you

>>>> do what is required to achieve success. If success is not important,

>>>> then we should leave IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of benchmark

>>>> to be achieved, not wait three, or six months, because success is not

>>>> important. So, what is the answer to the question?

>>>

>>> Is it worth it?

>>> (Whatever you define as "success")

>>>

>>

>> Depends on whether one believes that success is important. "If" success

>> is not important, then it is not worth it. So, what is your answer to my

>> question?

>

> What is this "success" you speak of?

>

"If" I answer your question will you respond to each and every point I make

and tell me why my reasons for success are not valid?

"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

news:47ea946c$0$12581$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>

> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

> news:06ZFj.24271$dT.16947@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

>>

>>

>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>> news:47e8528f$0$12560$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>

>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

>>> news:mPTFj.9517$Q52.1498@bignews9.bellsouth.net...

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>>>> news:47e807c3$0$6507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>>>

>>>>> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>

>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success

>>>>>>> in Iraq

>>>>>>> important or not important, and why?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

>>>>>>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

>>>>>>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

>>>>>>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an northwest

>>>>>>> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other soldier

>>>>>>> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in

>>>>>>> > the

>>>>>>> > attack.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from

>>>>>>> > his

>>>>>>> > wounds.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Baghdad:

>>>>>>> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive

>>>>>>> > device

>>>>>>> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi

>>>>>>> > police

>>>>>>> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal area,

>>>>>>> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to a

>>>>>>> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be

>>>>>>> > named,

>>>>>>> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while

>>>>>>> > on

>>>>>>> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later

>>>>>>> > of

>>>>>>> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of

>>>>>>> > another

>>>>>>> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack south

>>>>>>> > of

>>>>>>> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect

>>>>>>> > fire"

>>>>>>> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

>>>>>>> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

>>>>>>> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad

>>>>>>> > around

>>>>>>> > 7:00 a.m.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in

>>>>>>> > al

>>>>>>> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were reported.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam

>>>>>>> > Street

>>>>>>> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

>>>>>>> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

>>>>>>> > council in Mansour.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Diyala Prv:

>>>>>>> > Khalis:

>>>>>>> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on

>>>>>>> > Saturday

>>>>>>> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened

>>>>>>> > fire at

>>>>>>> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a

>>>>>>> > security

>>>>>>> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of

>>>>>>> > al-Khalis

>>>>>>> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat

>>>>>>> > al-Iraq-

>>>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

>>>>>>> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

>>>>>>> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

>>>>>>> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00

>>>>>>> > a.m.

>>>>>>> > local police of Salam district said.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Hilla:

>>>>>>> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla,

>>>>>>> > 100

>>>>>>> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while five

>>>>>>> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

>>>>>>> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

>>>>>>> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party

>>>>>>> > command,

>>>>>>> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in southern

>>>>>>> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat

>>>>>>> > al-Iraq -

>>>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Latifiya:

>>>>>>> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles)

>>>>>>> > south

>>>>>>> > of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Mahaweel:

>>>>>>> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot

>>>>>>> > wounds

>>>>>>> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Samarra:

>>>>>>> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

>>>>>>> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six fighters

>>>>>>> > of

>>>>>>> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident

>>>>>>> > took

>>>>>>> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

>>>>>>> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

>>>>>>> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were

>>>>>>> > wounded

>>>>>>> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground

>>>>>>> > forces

>>>>>>> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > Kirkuk:

>>>>>>> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

>>>>>>> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb

>>>>>>> > targeting

>>>>>>> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

>>>>>>> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the

>>>>>>> > vehicles

>>>>>>> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

>>>>>>> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

>>>>>>> > morning.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would

>>>>>> be

>>>>>> (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his WMDs,

>>>>>> and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

>>>>>> (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within a

>>>>>> year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

>>>>>> how you're defining "success" at this point.

>>>>>

>>>>> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have

>>>>> not succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my question

>>>>> still stands. Is success important or is it not important, at this

>>>>> point in time, and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and thriving

>>>>> demcoracy, that is still a work in progress, but it cannot succeed

>>>>> "if" the insurgency is not defeated. As for the "cost" problem, if

>>>>> you are concerned about the cost, then my answer is, NEVER GO TO WAR,

>>>>> because you can never know in advance what is going to happen when you

>>>>> go to war. So, we are back to my original question. Is success in

>>>>> Iraq important or is it not important? The answer to that question is

>>>>> critical to what we should now do. If success is important, then you

>>>>> do what is required to achieve success. If success is not important,

>>>>> then we should leave IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of benchmark

>>>>> to be achieved, not wait three, or six months, because success is not

>>>>> important. So, what is the answer to the question?

>>>>

>>>> Is it worth it?

>>>> (Whatever you define as "success")

>>>>

>>>

>>> Depends on whether one believes that success is important. "If" success

>>> is not important, then it is not worth it. So, what is your answer to

>>> my question?

>>

>> What is this "success" you speak of?

>>

> "If" I answer your question will you respond to each and every point I

> make and tell me why my reasons for success are not valid?

>

>

I can't answer you question until I know what you mean by success.

Today the war In Iraq rages.

Sadr has between 70,000 and 135,000 fighters.

They have not yet engaged us.

There are about 15,000 to 20,000 unreliable Iraqi army and police engaged so

far.

Petraeus says the "surge" is permanent. (at least for the next 299 days)

What do you mean by success?

"Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:5BxGj.25661$rC6.19392@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

>

>

> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

> news:47ea946c$0$12581$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>

>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

>> news:06ZFj.24271$dT.16947@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

>>>

>>>

>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>>> news:47e8528f$0$12560$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>>

>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

>>>> news:mPTFj.9517$Q52.1498@bignews9.bellsouth.net...

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:47e807c3$0$6507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>

>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success

>>>>>>>> in Iraq

>>>>>>>> important or not important, and why?

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

>>>>>>>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

>>>>>>>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

>>>>>>>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an

>>>>>>>> > northwest

>>>>>>>> > neighborhood of Baghdad on Saturday, March 22nd. One other

>>>>>>>> > soldier

>>>>>>>> > were wounded in the attack and two Iraqi civilians were killed in

>>>>>>>> > the

>>>>>>>> > attack.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > USA Today is reporting that the injured soldier died later from

>>>>>>>> > his

>>>>>>>> > wounds.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Baghdad:

>>>>>>>> > #1: Four civilians were wounded when an improvised explosive

>>>>>>>> > device

>>>>>>>> > (IED) went off in southeastern Baghdad on Saturday, an Iraqi

>>>>>>>> > police

>>>>>>>> > source said. "An IED went off on the main road in al-Mashtal

>>>>>>>> > area,

>>>>>>>> > southeastern Baghdad, wounding four civilians who were rushed to

>>>>>>>> > a

>>>>>>>> > nearby hospital for treatment," the source, who refused to be

>>>>>>>> > named,

>>>>>>>> > told Aswat al-Iraq - Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > #2: Two soldiers were killed when their vehicle was struck while

>>>>>>>> > on

>>>>>>>> > patrol in Baghdad while a third injured in the attack died later

>>>>>>>> > of

>>>>>>>> > his wounds, the military said in a series of statements.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > #3: The military had earlier reported the death on Friday of

>>>>>>>> > another

>>>>>>>> > soldier, who sustained injuries in a rocket or mortar attack

>>>>>>>> > south of

>>>>>>>> > Baghdad. Four other soldiers were wounded in Friday's "indirect

>>>>>>>> > fire"

>>>>>>>> > attack, it said. The US military uses the term "indirect fire" to

>>>>>>>> > refer to rocket or mortar attacks.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > #4: A civilian was killed and three others were wounded in an IED

>>>>>>>> > explosion that targeted a bus in al Amin area in east Baghdad

>>>>>>>> > around

>>>>>>>> > 7:00 a.m.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > #5: Around 8:00 a.m. two mortar shells hit the amusement club in

>>>>>>>> > al

>>>>>>>> > Yarmouk neighborhood in west Baghdad. No casualties were

>>>>>>>> > reported.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > #6: Three civilians were wounded in an IED explosion in al Kam

>>>>>>>> > Street

>>>>>>>> > in Adhemiyah neighborhood in north of Baghdad around 11.00 a.m.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > #7: Around 1:00 p.m. an IED exploded in Mansour neighborhood west

>>>>>>>> > Baghdad. Six people were wounded including two members of Sahwa

>>>>>>>> > council in Mansour.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Diyala Prv:

>>>>>>>> > Khalis:

>>>>>>>> > #1: At least one policeman and two civilians were wounded on

>>>>>>>> > Saturday

>>>>>>>> > as fighters belong to the anti-Qaeda Popular Committees opened

>>>>>>>> > fire at

>>>>>>>> > a checkpoint manned by Iraqi police in Diala, central Iraq, a

>>>>>>>> > security

>>>>>>>> > source said. "The attack took place near Sarajiq village of

>>>>>>>> > al-Khalis

>>>>>>>> > district," the source, who requested anonymity, told Aswat

>>>>>>>> > al-Iraq-

>>>>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Three civilians were killed including a policeman and two other

>>>>>>>> > civilians were wounded when a check point of the local supporting

>>>>>>>> > committees opened fire on their car in Sarajiq village in Salam

>>>>>>>> > district, part of Khalis town 9miles north of Baquba around 9:00

>>>>>>>> > a.m.

>>>>>>>> > local police of Salam district said.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Hilla:

>>>>>>>> > #1: One body was found with gunshot wounds to the head in Hilla,

>>>>>>>> > 100

>>>>>>>> > km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > #2: Four Katyusha missiles fell on a U.S. base in Hilla while

>>>>>>>> > five

>>>>>>>> > others in its environs on Friday night but left no casualties, a

>>>>>>>> > police source in Babel province said on Saturday."Four Katyusha

>>>>>>>> > rockets fell on a house of a member of the former Baath Party

>>>>>>>> > command,

>>>>>>>> > which the U.S. intelligence corps took as headquarters in

>>>>>>>> > southern

>>>>>>>> > Hilla," the source, who asked not to be named, told Aswat

>>>>>>>> > al-Iraq -

>>>>>>>> > Voices of Iraq

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Latifiya:

>>>>>>>> > #1: One decapitated body was found in Latifiya, 40 km (25 miles)

>>>>>>>> > south

>>>>>>>> > of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Mahaweel:

>>>>>>>> > #1: Police found two bodies with signs of torture and gunshot

>>>>>>>> > wounds

>>>>>>>> > in Mahaweel, 75 km (45 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Samarra:

>>>>>>>> > #1: An American helicopter mistakenly opened fire on an Awakening

>>>>>>>> > Councils' group patrol in Salahudin province, killing six

>>>>>>>> > fighters of

>>>>>>>> > the group, a provincial police source said Saturday. The incident

>>>>>>>> > took

>>>>>>>> > place at dawn in the Um al-Talayeb village south of the city of

>>>>>>>> > Samarra, some 120 km north of Baghdad, the source told Xinhua on

>>>>>>>> > condition of anonymity. Two more fighters of the patrol were

>>>>>>>> > wounded

>>>>>>>> > by the helicopter attack and were transported by the US ground

>>>>>>>> > forces

>>>>>>>> > to their base for treatment, the source said.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > Kirkuk:

>>>>>>>> > #1: In Kirkuk, some 250 kilometres north of Baghdad, at least one

>>>>>>>> > civilian was killed and nine others were injured when a bomb

>>>>>>>> > targeting

>>>>>>>> > an Iraqi patrol went off in the al-Dahab al-Aswad area, security

>>>>>>>> > sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur. Sources said that the

>>>>>>>> > vehicles

>>>>>>>> > of Iraqi police officers were damaged in the attack.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> > A civilian was killed and five policemen were injured in an IED

>>>>>>>> > explosion in al Tayran square in downtown Kirkuk city on Saturday

>>>>>>>> > morning.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> "Success" by the standards we were given before the invasion, would

>>>>>>> be

>>>>>>> (a) overthrowing Saddam Hussein, (b) finding and destroying his

>>>>>>> WMDs,

>>>>>>> and © turning Iraq into a free and thriving democracy. We achieved

>>>>>>> (a). There was no (b). We were supposed to have achieved © within

>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>> year or two at a cost to the US of $50-60 billion. So, I'm not sure

>>>>>>> how you're defining "success" at this point.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Yes, we did overthrow Saddam. No, we are still there because we have

>>>>>> not succeeded druing the occupation phase. And therefore, my

>>>>>> question still stands. Is success important or is it not important,

>>>>>> at this point in time, and why? As for turning Iraq into a free and

>>>>>> thriving demcoracy, that is still a work in progress, but it cannot

>>>>>> succeed "if" the insurgency is not defeated. As for the "cost"

>>>>>> problem, if you are concerned about the cost, then my answer is,

>>>>>> NEVER GO TO WAR, because you can never know in advance what is going

>>>>>> to happen when you go to war. So, we are back to my original

>>>>>> question. Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? The

>>>>>> answer to that question is critical to what we should now do. If

>>>>>> success is important, then you do what is required to achieve

>>>>>> success. If success is not important, then we should leave

>>>>>> IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some sort of benchmark to be achieved, not

>>>>>> wait three, or six months, because success is not important. So,

>>>>>> what is the answer to the question?

>>>>>

>>>>> Is it worth it?

>>>>> (Whatever you define as "success")

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Depends on whether one believes that success is important. "If"

>>>> success is not important, then it is not worth it. So, what is your

>>>> answer to my question?

>>>

>>> What is this "success" you speak of?

>>>

>> "If" I answer your question will you respond to each and every point I

>> make and tell me why my reasons for success are not valid?

>>

>>

>

> I can't answer you question until I know what you mean by success.

>

I said I would be more than willing to answer your question, "if" you will

respond to each and every point I make and tell me why my positions are not

valid? I am waiting for that simple committment, and I will be more than

happy to post a response.

"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:0ff80f91-0487-45b4-9746-f8c5168d615e@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 26, 2:22 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> "Sid9" <s...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

>

> news:06ZFj.24271$dT.16947@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

>

>

>

>

>

> > "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

> >news:47e8528f$0$12560$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>

> >> "Sid9" <s...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message

> >>news:mPTFj.9517$Q52.1498@bignews9.bellsouth.net...

>

> >>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

> >>>news:47e807c3$0$6507$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>

> >>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> >>>>news:3d94e8af-d0e2-47c7-81a9-0a34d31d5c22@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...

> >>>>> On Mar 23, 8:41 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>

> >>>>> wrote:

> >>>>>> Simple question for you. Will you answer the question? Is success

> >>>>>> in Iraq

> >>>>>> important or not important, and why?

>

> >>>>>> "John B." <johnb...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>

> >>>>>>news:0f4dc098-c7a9-4420-a065-91ed2285f686@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...

>

> >>>>>> > Shot, tortured, bombed, blown up by IEDs...gotta love that surge!

>

> >>>>>> > War News for Saturday, March 22, 2008

>

> >>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the death of a Coalition force Soldier in

> >>>>>> > indirect fire south of Baghdad on Friday, March 21st. Four other

> >>>>>> > soldier were wounded in the attack.

>

> >>>>>> > MNF-Iraq is reporting the deaths of two Multi-National Division -

> >>>>>> > Baghdad Soldiers in an improvised explosive device in an

> >>>>>> > northwest