Anymore homegrown terrorists?

[snafu]

So anybody think that this Fort Hood shooting will be an isolated incident?

Anymore Timothy McVeigh?s out there?

Fla. man tries to send flowers to accused gunman

Fla. man tries to send flowers to accused gunman - Florida AP - MiamiHerald.com

 

[Ahhlee]

Turn coats will always be out there, snaf. Always waiting for an opportunity to strike and gain notoriety.

The real question is....how much more free reign are we going to give them to do so?

How many more PC laws will be created to protect the rights of people like this?

How many more people won't report them because they don't want to "falsely accuse" or "hurt anyone's feelings"?

How much more can we turn a blind eye to violent extremists like these?

And when will harsher sentences be doled out to help deter others from following the same path?

It's so frustrating....just so **** frustrating.

 

[snafu]

Yeah that was kinda where I was headed next. I know we have to protect civil liberties and all but we must be able to draw a line in the sand somewhere. This is why I think the Patriot Act was a good idea. We need to be able to determine who our next enemy will be. If Muslims are mostly to blame I don’t believe its racial profiling. And we are tying our hands and feet by not allowing our CIA to work without impendence with our interrogations.

 

[Old Salt]

First thing we need to do is do away with the restriction on "racial profiling". After all, if the report says a Hispanic (or a black, or an Arab...) was seen doing something, why not restrict the search to one of those groups? Do they think a Swede should be looked at? A waste of law enforcement's time.

All we can really do is stay alert to our surroundings. As the flight deck crew used to say: keep our heads on a swivel.

 

[timesjoke]

Even the media has been very reluctant to report that this guy was a muslim, much less that he had ties to radical terrorist groups and such.

Ali is right, how much rope do we give them to hang us with?

 

[wez]

Pretty hard to do anything before hand.. Tim McViegh was a midwestern.. white.. all American boy who served in the military and was a gulf war veteran.. How ya gonna racial profile that?

Something happened during his time and after he got out that changed his perception and lead him to do what he did.. Still get chills hearing that he called the kids that were in the daycare at the federal building "collateral damage".. the same term the military uses.. Who knows why he did what he did.. the answer died with him.

Much more shocking to me than what happened on 9/11.. they weren't born and bred white Americans.

I suggest we stop teaching kids to be aggressive by wiping out their individuality and training them how to kill people.. but.. that's just me..

 

[timesjoke]

Man hardly needs training on how to hurt each other Wez, we have been doing it with great success for all of our history. The same emotions that drive up to great heights of literature, art, music, poetry and love also leads us down the path of envy, hate, remorse, greed and despair.

We can't turn off our emotions in one way without also turning them off in other ways we like. I don't think the answer is to try and ignore our feelings but to instead try to find common ground and understanding so the more negative feelings have less to build on.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[eddo]

Man hardly needs training on how to hurt each other Wez, we have been doing it with great success for all of our history.

That's an excellent point.

I don't think the blame lies with military training, if that is indeed what wez was saying.

but then again, there are lots of ways to be "trained" to hurt others. Video games, movies, neighborhood bully's, mean older siblings, abusive parents, sports (like boxing, wrestling, etc.)

Chi posted this over at thejungle:

The Associated Press: UK: Toddler hit by playmate gets payout

Where did that 3 year old learn to hurt others? Or do you think he just decided it would be fun to almost kill another 3 year old?

Really makes ya wonder about society...

 

[wez]

I agree.. excellent point to be sure.. part of the human condition to feel all emotions..

I'm not saying the military is to blame, but it is an organization that teaches young people that violence and aggression is the final solution to problems .. might = right.. promotes hate over love and revenge over forgiveness.. aggression over compassion and violence over compromise. The resources and energy our country puts into it is staggering.. we are the undisputed kings of might = right.

I could never support an organization like that.. if I did, I'd have to support every one of them under the sun.. cuz.. whatever is ok for me to do to another human being is ok for every other human being to do to me, period. So.. I choose to support.. none of em..

We can have 1000's of nuclear weapons but you can't have one cuz you'd be a danger to the world, or else?

I've said it many times.. hypocrisy is the only defense.. that can never be right.

Like TJ's said several times.. real leaders lead by example.. not brute force.

 

[timesjoke]

But can you also see that being a pacifist will not solve anything? What has pure non-agression done to help tibet?

If someone came to your house and demanded your possessions, would you give them? What if they threatened violence? Would you call the police after?

Not using force yourself but calling the police is still condoning the application of power, your just passing the buck to let someone else use their power instead of yourself. That is similar to sending soldiers off to war while staying home yourself.

A new direction, if you use force to stop a child from walking out into traffic, was that good or bad?

If you use force to stop someone from killing a loved one, is that good or bad?

If you use force to protect a Nation from an invading army, is that good or bad?

My point is force itself is not good or bad on it's own, it is the intent and application that changes the meaning of the force. If I slap you our of anger that is wrong, if I slap you to keep you from swallowing poison the meaning behind the slap has completely changed even though the action is the same.

 

[wez]

Ya know.. it's pretty funny.. with all the talk and accusations of blind support for people that have been going on around here lately.. I have to ask..

If you were born in the Middle East, would you still support the US government agenda and it's military?

If not, why?

If so, why?

Sumpin' to think about..

 

[timesjoke]

If I was born in the Middle East I would still believe setting off bombs on a school bus was wrong. I would still believe killing thousands of innocents in attacks like 9/11 as wrong.

I know from my seeing the real world that those kinds of attacks only make things worse. Are the people in palistine better off after all these years of terrorist attacks against the Jews? No, in many ways they are far worse off but the Jews are better off so what has the killing of babies accomplished for those who thought they were killing the innocent for a purpose?

While I am sure our troops and our allies have also killed some innocent people, the point is we never wanted to, and intent to me does make a huge difference.

Now I answered your questions, please go back and answer mine.

 

[wez]

But can you also see that being a pacifist will not solve anything? What has pure non-agression done to help tibet?
If someone came to your house and demanded your possessions, would you give them? What if they threatened violence? Would you call the police after?

Not using force yourself but calling the police is still condoning the application of power, your just passing the buck to let someone else use their power instead of yourself. That is similar to sending soldiers off to war while staying home yourself.

A new direction, if you use force to stop a child from walking out into traffic, was that good or bad?

If you use force to stop someone from killing a loved one, is that good or bad?

If you use force to protect a Nation from an invading army, is that good or bad?

My point is force itself is not good or bad on it's own, it is the intent and application that changes the meaning of the force. If I slap you our of anger that is wrong, if I slap you to keep you from swallowing poison the meaning behind the slap has completely changed even though the action is the same.

Well.. I just hope someday people can move past all the violence and force and find a better way to live than might = right.. cuz.. it doesn't. Pretty much the opposite.

 

[wez]

If I was born in the Middle East I would still believe setting off bombs on a school bus was wrong. I would still believe killing thousands of innocents in attacks like 9/11 as wrong.

I know from my seeing the real world that those kinds of attacks only make things worse. Are the people in palistine better off after all these years of terrorist attacks against the Jews? No, in many ways they are far worse off but the Jews are better off so what has the killing of babies accomplished for those who thought they were killing the innocent for a purpose?

While I am sure our troops and our allies have also killed some innocent people, the point is we never wanted to, and intent to me does make a huge difference.

Now I answered your questions, please go back and answer mine.

Actually, you didn't answer my question.. the question was.. would you still support the US government's agenda and it's military. Why or Why not?

Not.. why would you still not support the violence promoting organizations that you already don't.

And that question wasn't aimed at you.. it was for everyone..

 

[timesjoke]

Actually, you didn't answer my question.. the question was.. would you still support the US government's agenda and it's military. Why or Why not?

Not.. why would still not support the violence promoting organizations that you already don't.

And that question wasn't aimed at you.. it was for everyone..

I answered it on the basis of why.

There are a very wide range of agendas but each have a reason behind them. It is not like we are spending billions for no reason. Without the 9/11 attack, none of the wars that were fought would have happened for example. The desire to kill the innocent caused a lot of pain and suffereing and what did those who started the fight gain?

Maybe they can see a point to it, but I don't.

But yes, in short I would support the actions of America to defend it's people from those who have attacked them. I would support the actions to reduce the spread of things like nuclear weapons into the hands of people who will use them just like they use any other form of explosive to kill innocents like babies on school buses. I would support the use of force to stop mad men like Hitler from spreading their hate and destruction all over the world.

Force itself is not evil, it is the people using the tool that define it's actions.

I asked you those question to get you to talk about a point of violence Wez. Would you call the police if you were robbed? If so then your condoning violence/power to protect you and your possessions. If not I would like your address because maybe you have a few things I could use, lol.

 

[wez]

I answered it on the basis of why.
There are a very wide range of agendas but each have a reason behind them. It is not like we are spending billions for no reason. Without the 9/11 attack, none of the wars that were fought would have happened for example. The desire to kill the innocent caused a lot of pain and suffereing and what did those who started the fight gain?

Maybe they can see a point to it, but I don't.

But yes, in short I would support the actions of America to defend it's people from those who have attacked them. I would support the actions to reduce the spread of things like nuclear weapons into the hands of people who will use them just like they use any other form of explosive to kill innocents like babies on school buses. I would support the use of force to stop mad men like Hitler from spreading their hate and destruction all over the world.

Force itself is not evil, it is the people using the tool that define it's actions.

I asked you those question to get you to talk about a point of violence Wez. Would you call the police if you were robbed? If so then your condoning violence/power to protect you and your possessions. If not I would like your address because maybe you have a few things I could use, lol.

Well.. if it's uncomfortable for ya to step in a middle eastern mans shoes completely and take a look from another perspective.. that's fine.. I understand.. maybe it's not within' your ability to do so.. it's not easy.. or comfy.. or fun.

As far as your question.. if someone did that to me.. I would call the police.. I wouldn't want them to to answer with violence though..

Like 9/11.. I didn't want my country to answer by attacking Iraq.. which had zip to do with it.. or attack anybody.. rather we took a good long look at ourselves.. we're far from perfect... or innocent victims.

I don't think it's ridiculous for people in other parts of the world to question our motivations and "intent" for what we do.. I question them myself. Nor do I condemn them for not liking what we do .. I wouldn't like it if I were them either.. ****.. I don't like it as me the way I already am.. so.. there ya are.

 

[snafu]

Racial profiling won’t work for homegrown terrorists like Timothy McVeigh but the political correctness might have stopped the Fort hood shooting. We also need to be able to monitor suspected terrorists or nut jobs via the Patriot Act so that we can divert any other such attempts. I wouldn’t be surprised if we have an all American Muslim group attempt an all out mass murder next. Maybe it will be a dirty bomb next who knows. What I’m worried about is how we can stop it if we don’t do surveillance, profiling and intelligence gathering that would in this day in age be considered trampling on someone’s civil rights.

Also why does it take a catastrophe like 9-11 for us to wake up and take notice. Why don’t we acknowledge and remember the ones that were diverted how they were diverted?

Foiled Plots Since 9/11
In the days after 9/11, America immediately went to work to prevent another act of terrorism by reassessing U.S. counterterrorism abilities. Lessons emerged, including the need for more information sharing down to the state and local level and with our allies, more intelligence-gathering abilities, and greater integration among the U.S. government agencies and with state and local governments, industry, and private citizens. The U.S. addressed these needs by:

Developing terrorism-fighting legal and investigatory tools, including the PATRIOT Act[1] and the expansion of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), to help to identify, prosecute, and convict terrorists.

. Increasing information sharing and collective security around the globe through assistance programs, information-sharing agreements, and the sharing of counterterrorism best practices.

. Developing law enforcement partnerships from the grassroots level up, which have enabled the U.S. to disrupt the flow of money and resources to terrorist groups and to prevent acts of terrorism across the United States. The creation of Joint Terrorism Task Forces has been a key part of this effort.

Foiled Terror Plots Against America Since 9/11 - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

Terrorist Watch: 23 Plots Foiled Since 9/11

 

[ImWithStupid]

There's a difference between "profiling" and "racial profiling".

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X6XbFli8q8]YouTube- Glenn Beck: When is an extremist not an extremist?[/ame]

 

[timesjoke]

Well.. if it's uncomfortable for ya to step in a middle eastern mans shoes completely and take a look from another perspective.. that's fine.. I understand.. maybe it's not within' your ability to do so.. it's not easy.. or comfy.. or fun.

Not within my ability?

You do know the vast majority of middle eastern men do not commit terrorist attacks right? Most hate the violence even if they have a strong belief structure that promotes actions against "infidels".

Just because the majority of these radicals happen to live in the middle east, that does not mean all middle eastern men are terrorists. Look to the Fort Hood radical muslim, he acted the same way as the other terrorists and he lived his entire life in America.

The problem is in the mind, not the geographical location.

As far as your question.. if someone did that to me.. I would call the police.. I wouldn't want them to to answer with violence though..

The police will arrest, hand cuff, and imprison this criminal, all done because "YOU" reported the crime knowing he would be punnished.

So using violence and power is okay as long as the Government is doing what you want them to do and protecting you but if they do it to protect someone else it is wrong.....

Like 9/11.. I didn't want my country to answer by attacking Iraq.. which had zip to do with it.. or attack anybody.. rather we took a good long look at ourselves.. we're far from perfect... or innocent victims.

I will just let this pass as we agreeing to not agree, we did not deserve to be attacked, if you really believe America is so vile our innocents and children deserve to be killed maybe you should move.

That is like blaming a rape victim for being raped just because of the way she was dressed.

I don't think it's ridiculous for people in other parts of the world to question our motivations and "intent" for what we do.. I question them myself. Nor do I condemn them for not liking what we do .. I wouldn't like it if I were them either.. ****.. I don't like it as me the way I already am.. so.. there ya are.

Not liking what we do and killing our innocents/children are two completely different things.

We are not targeting children on purpose, they are, to me that shows a very distinctive difference.