Ask the Builder...

I get people that call and dance around the question that they seem to want to ask, so I thought that I would open up a thread about asking the builder questions. I will not answer questions about E85 needles, port widths, bowl percentages, valve angles, cam timing or ignition timing, but other then that I'm pretty much open to answering questions that members have wondered about.

Fire away...

hey first off great thread should help alot of people. My small question is, do u guys normally wire up the tps when u do the fcr carbs from stock on the 04-05's or do u not run tps? Im not real sure what tps is for but i was thinking you could run without it connected so it cant be to important or is it? thanks morgan

We do not run the TPS on FCR carbs.

so could i just clip mine off and be fine? is it some sort of epa crap?

You can just leave it, or clip it off either way.

I have 4 450's that I have been apart of putting together.

1st quad -

07 CW 477 kit 12.1:1

Stock Stroke

Ported Head (Rage)

HRC jetting and needle

HRC Cam

No Lid on the filter

HRC Head pipe w/White Brothers Exhaust

Rekluse

2nd Quad 2005

Stock Stroke Stock Bore

Weisco 13.1:1 piston

Hot Cams Stage 2

Stock carb other then jetting

Full Dasa Exhaust

Aftermarket Aluminum air box with uni filter

Rekluse

Quad 3 2007

Stock Stroke

CW 477 Kit 12.1:1

Stage 2 Hot Cams

Quadified Ported Head

Port Matched Intake

No lid on filter

HRC jetting and Neddle

Big Gun Full exhaust

Rekluse

4th Quad 2007

+3 Crank

CW +3 cylinder Kit 12.1:1

Hot Cams Stage 3

Stock Head

HRC Head pipe with White Brothers Exhuast

Stock carb other then jetting

Stock Clutched

All 4 quads run side beside each other. Is the carb holding them back from making a big difference in each quad? The 05 is my XC quad so I dont need it to make 60hp and wear me out for 2hrs, but the other three are weekend quads, that get drag raced and beat on through the woods. I really thought we would have saw a noticable difference in one of them with the ported heads VS stock head.

Thoughts?

Hey Morgan, I was wondering about the ESR intakes. I've read where shortning/ cutting the intake will help get the air right going into the carb. Is this intakes legnth change with the differant engine combos or is it kinda a standard legnth. How do you tell how much to cut off? I have a modded esr but don't know how much to trim. thanks guy!

Intake length plays the same roll as moving the carb closer and further away from the head. Generally, the shorter you make the intake, the more over rev the bike will have. But keep in mind 4 strokes like to have a certain amount of stored volume in the intake track. Usually you would cut an intake about an inch at a time.

We do not use the ESR intakes. The 04/05 boot with DASA ring and filter on the 04/05, and the FCI intakes on the 06+. Those combos will yield the most power, and best overall AF curve.

I have 4 450's that I have been apart of putting together.

 

1st quad -

07 CW 477 kit 12.1:1

Stock Stroke

Ported Head (Rage)

HRC jetting and needle

HRC Cam

No Lid on the filter

HRC Head pipe w/White Brothers Exhaust

Rekluse

 

2nd Quad 2005

Stock Stroke Stock Bore

Weisco 13.1:1 piston

Hot Cams Stage 2

Stock carb other then jetting

Full Dasa Exhaust

Aftermarket Aluminum air box with uni filter

Rekluse

 

Quad 3 2007

Stock Stroke

CW 477 Kit 12.1:1

Stage 2 Hot Cams

Quadified Ported Head

Port Matched Intake

No lid on filter

HRC jetting and Neddle

Big Gun Full exhaust

Rekluse

 

4th Quad 2007

+3 Crank

CW +3 cylinder Kit 12.1:1

Hot Cams Stage 3

Stock Head

HRC Head pipe with White Brothers Exhuast

Stock carb other then jetting

Stock Clutched

 

All 4 quads run side beside each other. Is the carb holding them back from making a big difference in each quad? The 05 is my XC quad so I dont need it to make 60hp and wear me out for 2hrs, but the other three are weekend quads, that get drag raced and beat on through the woods. I really thought we would have saw a noticable difference in one of them with the ported heads VS stock head.

 

Thoughts?

Hondas are all about the right combo. In my opinion each bike has 2 it 3 items holding the combo back. Bike #1, the small HRC cam, small carb, pipe are holding it back. Bike #3, I'm not familiar with Quadified, so I can't say if the head is holding it back or not, but the small carb, pipe, and possibly Recluse are. I know the Recluse has its purpose, but as far as making power outside the woods, I'm not a fan of them. Bike #4, we do not use or recommend +3 or any stroker cranks on 06+ motors. They are sprint motors compared to 04-05 motors. The crank, stock head, stock carb, pipe are holding it back.

Did you happen to set the deck height on all the big bore kits? Little things like that start to add up over time. To be honest, all the bikes except your XC bike should be at 60+ HP easily.

Hondas are all about the right combo. In my opinion each bike has 2 it 3 items holding the combo back. Bike #1, the small HRC cam, small carb, pipe are holding it back. Bike #3, I'm not familiar with Quadified, so I can't say if the head is holding it back or not, but the small carb, pipe, and possibly Recluse are. I know the Recluse has its purpose, but as far as making power outside the woods, I'm not a fan of them. Bike #4, we do not use or recommend +3 or any stroker cranks on 06+ motors. They are sprint motors compared to 04-05 motors. The crank, stock head, stock carb, pipe are holding it back.

 

Did you happen to set the deck height on all the big bore kits? Little things like that start to add up over time. To be honest, all the bikes except your XC bike should be at 60+ HP easily.

On bikes 1 and 3 care to give any advise on what parts to use? None of the bikes have been on a dyno, so I dont have any idea what they are making to be honest.

Raptor 700 Desert bike:

Kenz +2 head, Kenz cam

Kenz SB 12:1 CP, SS

+2 TB, FCI w/ box

PCV, Dyna w/ Kenz curve

Slingshot

15/37, 22" tire, +2 axle

I'm coming up short on RPM in 5th. I bounce off the limiter in 1st & 2nd almost as soon as I put it in gear. 3rd and 4th feel pretty good. I feel like I'm leaving something on the table in 5th though. I can't gear it shorter because the first 3 gears will go through too fast. It feels like I'm not pulling more than 5000 in 5th. I can't hit the limiter in 4th either but it revs out to where I'm comfortable with it.

Am I not getting enough fuel, as in a bigger injector might be needed? Is it set-up in the ignition maybe? Anything you'd do differently?

Raptor 700 Desert bike:

 

Kenz +2 head, Kenz cam

Kenz SB 12:1 CP, SS

+2 TB, FCI w/ box

PCV, Dyna w/ Kenz curve

Slingshot

15/37, 22" tire, +2 axle

 

I'm coming up short on RPM in 5th. I bounce off the limiter in 1st & 2nd almost as soon as I put it in gear. 3rd and 4th feel pretty good. I feel like I'm leaving something on the table in 5th though. I can't gear it shorter because the first 3 gears will go through too fast. It feels like I'm not pulling more than 5000 in 5th. I can't hit the limiter in 4th either but it revs out to where I'm comfortable with it.

 

Am I not getting enough fuel, as in a bigger injector might be needed? Is it set-up in the ignition maybe? Anything you'd do differently?

Start with unplugging the speed sensor if you haven't. It will retard timing in 5th gear on the 700s. The sensor is on the down slope of the cases on the left rear.

After that, I would look towards the tuning. Has the bike been dyno tuned?

I have a 08 TRX450er, Dasa, HRC cam, K&N no lid, dyno tuned to 47HP, what would it take to get 55 hp, on pump gas? Can that be done with the HRC cam?

We do not use HRC cams. All of our heads are more biased to more aggressive cams, with the HC2 being the absolute smallest cam we would use. With our CNC head, a HC2, and the rest if your combo it will make 55 on pump gas easily. Closer to 60 with a CP piston, 208 and FCI intake.

On bikes 1 and 3 care to give any advise on what parts to use? None of the bikes have been on a dyno, so I dont have any idea what they are making to be honest.

HC2 is the smallest cam we run, that will give some more over the HRC cams. We run at least 42.5 for size on the FCRs. That will gain throughout the power curve, and will yield more over rev. Setting the deck heights to .040 will gain some. We run DASA pipes on 90% of our builds. The Rage head should be just fine, but again I know nothing of Quadified, first I've heard of them so unsure if that head is holding that build back.

Start with unplugging the speed sensor if you haven't. It will retard timing in 5th gear on the 700s. The sensor is on the down slope of the cases on the left rear.

 

After that, I would look towards the tuning. Has the bike been dyno tuned?

I unplugged it about 4 years ago but I haven't checked it since it came back from Kenz, I'll peep it.

Dyno tuned at Kenz.

Assume 2004/2005 TRX450R for below:

What clutch components (fibers/steels, basket) do you use on an upper 50's/lower 60's HP stock bore bike, without a lock out?

What clutch springs do you use on an upper 50's/lower 60's HP stock bore bike, without a lock out?

I would like to know this too. I was under the impression that with the tps plugged in, the timing will advance in the lower rpms for better throttle response. With it unplugged, the bike resorts to the WOT map witch has less timing advance. On a dyno pull or drag run, there really should be no difference if I am correct but during other types of riding, one should see a difference in partial throttle openings and the bike should be more responsive. I think the tps sends a signal to the ecu and operates like a "step function" which starts out with more advanced timing then at a certain throttle opening retards the timing, and does this again at even more throttle opening, then resorts to a WOT curve which has the least amount of advance of course. If I am wrong, then please correct me. I am just trying to learn like the next guy.

Mailman

why is the tps unneccessary to hook up on the 04-05's? not saying it is necessary, id just like to know what real significant role the tps plays in ignition timing and how the engine responds to it being hooked up and how it responds to it being unplugged. i guess i just want the logistics behind it so i can decide for myself if i ever want to if i feel its worth it.

I would like to know this too. I was under the impression that with the tps plugged in, the timing will advance in the lower rpms for better throttle response. With it unplugged, the bike resorts to the WOT map witch has less timing advance. On a dyno pull or drag run, there really should be no difference if I am correct but during other types of riding, one should see a difference in partial throttle openings and the bike should be more responsive. I think the tps sends a signal to the ecu and operates like a "step function" which starts out with more advanced timing then at a certain throttle opening retards the timing, and does this again at even more throttle opening, then resorts to a WOT curve which has the least amount of advance of course. If I am wrong, then please correct me. I am just trying to learn like the next guy.

 

Mailman

x3. I am also curious on your findings of TPS connected vs. not and the reasoning behind your selection.

I unplugged it about 4 years ago but I haven't checked it since it came back from Kenz, I'll peep it.

 

Dyno tuned at Kenz.

I don't see the tuning as a potential issue unless the summer heat is starting to fatten the bike up significantly. Do you have a way to hook it up to a laptop to check the TPS function and Duty Cycle of the injector? If so, make sure the TPS reads both 0 and 100% and if the Duty Cycle goes over 80% its time to step up on injector size.

Assume 2004/2005 TRX450R for below:

 

What clutch components (fibers/steels, basket) do you use on an upper 50's/lower 60's HP stock bore bike, without a lock out?

 

What clutch springs do you use on an upper 50's/lower 60's HP stock bore bike, without a lock out?

OEM clutch packs with OEM baskets, inner hubs, pressure plates unless the customer provides Hinson or another MFG.

Dark Synergy, Dark Synergy Mod (which was an LTR 450 spring), Tokyo Mod LTR springs or our own custom springs.

I know most companies won't, but I might as well ask... Will you guys work on a head that already has port/valve work done?

We do. We recommend sending it in for an evaluation so we can determine if A.) its fixable and B.) its worth it to fix it. The short side is the most important part of the head work and many builders drop the floor to far making it tough to perform the appropriate work to the SSR.