black mamba, damiana, k2, should it be legal?

[phreakwars]

So I ran across a news story on TV a while back about this stuff called "K2" that a few Nebraska law makers want to make illegal.

I had never heard of it until then, never even knew anything like that existed, much less could be bought at the local tobacco shop in town.

So now being influenced by what I saw on TV, I decided I needed to research this stuff a bit more, like I research most any other thing... So I look it up on the interweb, look to see what people are saying about it, and HOLY COW... many claims that it works!!

So, I figure, what the hell.. Had the kids over at their aunt and grandma's houses for the night, so thought.. cool... FREE TIME!!

So, headed on over to the local tobacco store, and asked for "BLACK MAMBA".. This is what I hear people said to ask for when going inside..

So I get the stuff, take it home, and think to myself... oh great, how am I gonna smoke this? I don't have a pipe, I don't have papers and even if I did have papers, I don't know how to roll, and honestly, I'm no McGuyver of pipe making, but I do have many friends who could do one up with almost anything available..... well crap....

So, I did some more research, found out you could make it into tea and add honey.

Ahh, now THAT is my language... cook it!!

Sooo.. steeped 1 cup+1 vial of black mamba for 10 minutes... strained... added honey for taste... downed it...
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My findings:

Yes, it DOES get you frikken high... compared to actual marijuana? Well, it's been a long long while for me, but I'd have to say it actually gets you a tad bit higher, but it's not a paranoia high. Doesn't last long though..

Should it be illegal?

Uh, I think, no, but I think it should be regulated a bit better, say only available for those 21 and older, just like alcohol is.

Plus, it's sold as an incense so the exact ingredients are unknown, which I guess I would be concerned about. But that's kinda nit pickin details..

There are MANY types of these weed alternative leaves around.

I guess the most sincere thing I can tell anybody about it, is try it for yourself.. get it while it's still legal... see what you personally think.

I know it is already illegal in a few states, but I want some REAL opinions on this stuff !!

Get it while you can!!
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[timesjoke]

I'm not above a drink or two for social events and helping to unwind but to me the idea of intentionally screwing with your mind with chemicals to reach a point of being impared does not seem very wise. Sure, when I was a kid there was some experimentation but as we mature we are suposed to ourgrow these childish needs and work for a greeater goal in life than a moment of chemical induced pleasure.


Consider this Bender, you admit there are no clear ingredients and you drang this stuff not knowing what would happen or if there was something in that stuff that you were allergic to.


What if you had a severe reaction?

What if you died in your uninformed and uncaring chemical adventure?

What about your loved ones? If you died or were severely damaged who cares for your falimy?




Would you feel proud if your kids were told you died getting stoned?




Society has already demonstrated the inability to control their actions using the legal recreational drugs we already have. Adding more recreational drugs just increases the number of people who have to turn to chemicals to escape a world they find unbearable to face without these crutches.


When you make something like this "legal" you are saying as a comunity that this is acceptable, this is okay. I would never say anything like that to my kids.


So here is my view on stuff like this, if you would not give it to your kids, most likely it is bad for you too.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I haven't tried it and I probably wont... But... with that being said. I think drug laws are stupid. What people choose to do with their own body and money should be totally up to them. There needs to be some rules about it, but it should be allowed.

1. It needs to be regulated by industry.
2. If it alters your mental ability (like alcohol does) then there should be DUI regulations.
3. Tax it's sale. Stop taking income taxes and go to a fair tax. That means tax the sale of drugs and alcohol like any other good.

 

[DaMan]

A friend of mine makes tea out of this and another herb called peppermint. I was at his son's wedding and he had a flask of this mixture. He offered it to me. He poured a little of it in a glass. A very little amount of it, less than a shot of whiskey. I drank it. The head rush and effect was instantaneous and was much the same as I remember when I smoked pot. In fact it was way more intense. Unlike pot it only lasted about 15 minutes.

I was amazed that there were legal herbs like this.

 

[timesjoke]

I haven't tried it and I probably wont... But... with that being said. I think drug laws are stupid. What people choose to do with their own body and money should be totally up to them. There needs to be some rules about it, but it should be allowed.

1. It needs to be regulated by industry.
2. If it alters your mental ability (like alcohol does) then there should be DUI regulations.
3. Tax it's sale. Stop taking income taxes and go to a fair tax. That means tax the sale of drugs and alcohol like any other good.

But there is the problem, it is impossible for it to ever be only about them doing the drug.

Tax it? Does that not make the Government drug dealers only out to make a profit? Why would we want to make a profit off the suffering of man? We know there is not one redeemable quality in recreational drugs but sell it anyway just to make money?

I pointed out things like how Bender could have died and left his kids alone in the world with nobody to take care of them, suddeny the Government is paying for the raising of children because the parents can't due to drug use. Even if they live a drug addicted person imposes a massive and heavy burdon on all taxpayers. Most crime is because of drug use, either directly or indirectly people need to feed their addiction and criminal activity is usually required to be able to afford it, then there are the mental side effects, even pot has some severe long term harms and this drug Bender is talking about does not have any long term studies to show if it is or is not harmful.


How long did it take people to find out how harmful fen phen was?


Nobody is an island, doing drugs in the privacy of your own home is still hurting everyone else in one way or another. The children being my biggest concern. Does Bender thing him doing drugs will not rub off on his children? Do any of you think the kids don't know? Children know more than you give them credit for, small and immature, but very observant. I have known parents who were shocked to know their small children knew things like the combination to the safe or passwords to their bank accounts.


If nothing else drug use lowers the moral fabric of society in general, adding more recreational drugs will simply add to that general decline.

If people are so mentally unstable they need to self-medicate to survive, then maybe they should be in mental institutions and under professional care, using the wrong medication for your disorders can cause great harms.

 

[eddo]

I haven't tried it and I probably wont... But... with that being said. I think drug laws are stupid. What people choose to do with their own body and money should be totally up to them. There needs to be some rules about it, but it should be allowed.

1. It needs to be regulated by industry.
2. If it alters your mental ability (like alcohol does) then there should be DUI regulations.
3. Tax it's sale. Stop taking income taxes and go to a fair tax. That means tax the sale of drugs and alcohol like any other good.

my biggest issue with this is your #2 point. We, as a society, prove every day that we cannot even handle alcohol safely. Drunk drivers kill every day. Alcohol addiction rips families apart all the time- often with physical abuse.

Why should we be trusted with more, when we cannot handle what is already legal?

I struggle with this line, cause I am all about personal responsibility, but too many innocent lives are being lost and harmed (many from repeat offenders) for me to be satisfied with leaving it up to personal responsibility.

 

[timesjoke]

I struggle with this line, cause I am all about personal responsibility, but too many innocent lives are being lost and harmed (many from repeat offenders) for me to be satisfied with leaving it up to personal responsibility.

Great post eddo and this is one of my points as well, instead of gaining more maturity and being more responsible, society has been going in the reverse so bad that entire generations don't even take responsibility to feed themselves, mush less take the time to be responsible when using recreational drugs.


When society in general demonstrated the inability to drive responsibly, the Government had to impose restrictions to driving and penalties for failure to follow those guidelines. The concept of recreational drug use is the same, almost all people cannot control their usage of recreational drugs. There are always inintended harms done to some other innocent party.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I struggle with this line, cause I am all about personal responsibility, but too many innocent lives are being lost and harmed (many from repeat offenders) for me to be satisfied with leaving it up to personal responsibility.

Great post eddo and this is one of my points as well, instead of gaining more maturity and being more responsible, society has been going in the reverse so bad that entire generations don't even take responsibility to feed themselves, mush less take the time to be responsible when using recreational drugs.


When society in general demonstrated the inability to drive responsibly, the Government had to impose restrictions to driving and penalties for failure to follow those guidelines. The concept of recreational drug use is the same, almost all people cannot control their usage of recreational drugs. There are always inintended harms done to some other innocent party.

Even so, let nature take it's course. I don't need the nanny state telling me that I'm not allowed to do crystal meth because it's going to kill me. I understand (better than 99% of the people on this board) what alcohol does to families and people. But it should all boil down to a personal choice and living with the consequences.

 

[timesjoke]

I struggle with this line, cause I am all about personal responsibility, but too many innocent lives are being lost and harmed (many from repeat offenders) for me to be satisfied with leaving it up to personal responsibility.

Great post eddo and this is one of my points as well, instead of gaining more maturity and being more responsible, society has been going in the reverse so bad that entire generations don't even take responsibility to feed themselves, mush less take the time to be responsible when using recreational drugs.


When society in general demonstrated the inability to drive responsibly, the Government had to impose restrictions to driving and penalties for failure to follow those guidelines. The concept of recreational drug use is the same, almost all people cannot control their usage of recreational drugs. There are always inintended harms done to some other innocent party.

Even so, let nature take it's course. I don't need the nanny state telling me that I'm not allowed to do crystal meth because it's going to kill me. I understand (better than 99% of the people on this board) what alcohol does to families and people. But it should all boil down to a personal choice and living with the consequences.

Easy to say when it is not your dead child who is killed by a drunk driver.

Personal choice is only personal if it only involves you, only your decision harms another human being, it is no longer a personal choice. People who use drugs always harm other people and that makes it wrong.


Is murder and rape also just a personal choice? Should we let nature take it's course in this way too? After all, anger, lust, greed, sexual arousal, all these things are "natural" aspects of humanity. We as a society have made choices that we want to discourage things like murder and rape because it is harmful to society on a very basic level. Something liek a hamburger has a "potential" for harm but it also has a non-harmful aspect and does not lead to criminal activity so I would be against any regulation for things that are in that category.


But recreational drugs have not one positive aspect for society, just like murder and rape it only feeds the worse man has to offer. Restricting access to harmful drugs is one of the "core values" of society and just like abortion, once the Government condones it, people will flock to it because suddenly it is acceptable.




Let's consider another element, we have age restricted products like tobacco, model glue, and booze but kids still get these things pretty much at will. If we cannot enforce age restriction to these items what makes anyone believe we could do it for other things like drugs?


RaE, do you have kids?

Is the America you want for them one where your kids can walk up to the local 7/11 and buy Government taxed Heroin and needles to get high with?


I don't know about you, but I want more than that for my kids, and my grandkids.

 

[eddo]

I struggle with this line, cause I am all about personal responsibility, but too many innocent lives are being lost and harmed (many from repeat offenders) for me to be satisfied with leaving it up to personal responsibility.

Great post eddo and this is one of my points as well, instead of gaining more maturity and being more responsible, society has been going in the reverse so bad that entire generations don't even take responsibility to feed themselves, mush less take the time to be responsible when using recreational drugs.


When society in general demonstrated the inability to drive responsibly, the Government had to impose restrictions to driving and penalties for failure to follow those guidelines. The concept of recreational drug use is the same, almost all people cannot control their usage of recreational drugs. There are always inintended harms done to some other innocent party.

Even so, let nature take it's course. I don't need the nanny state telling me that I'm not allowed to do crystal meth because it's going to kill me. I understand (better than 99% of the people on this board) what alcohol does to families and people. But it should all boil down to a personal choice and living with the consequences.

"You" doing meth and knowing it will kill you is fine by me.

You doing meth and killing my kid because you got behind the wheel, or was committing a crime to get more $$$ for more meth is where my line gets real fuzzy. and this part happens too often for my liking.

Most drunk drivers don't kill themselves when they get into accidents. They are relaxed, calm, and many times don't even know the accident is coming. It's the other, innocent, folks that die or get seriously injured.

 

[timesjoke]

Don't forget the drug addicted parents who spend all their money on drugs and the kids hardly get to eat much less get the extras in life to help them succeed. Parents who use drugs will raise kids who will most likely use drugs too and it is a never ending cycle of abused kids growing up to abuse their kids.

Lok at those who populate our prisons and see what kinds of parents they had and you will find a lot of drug users.





If RaE went out to the dsesert and killed himself with meth and had no children or other living family to mourn his death, there would still be the chance a innocent dirtbike rider may run into his corpse and crash

 

[phreakwars]

I'm not above a drink or two for social events and helping to unwind but to me the idea of intentionally screwing with your mind with chemicals to reach a point of being impared does not seem very wise. Sure, when I was a kid there was some experimentation but as we mature we are suposed to ourgrow these childish needs and work for a greeater goal in life than a moment of chemical induced pleasure

Now why is it childish? Because you say so? Obviously, it's not sold over the counter to children, so it is not meant to be used in by children... therefore... not childish.

Consider this Bender, you admit there are no clear ingredients and you drang this stuff not knowing what would happen or if there was something in that stuff that you were allergic to.


What if you had a severe reaction?

What if you died in your uninformed and uncaring chemical adventure?

What about your loved ones? If you died or were severely damaged who cares for your falimy?

I call that making my own decision about it. It's people like you who are allegedly concerned about it, who make up the people who wanna make these things illegal.

Would you feel proud if your kids were told you died getting stoned?

I'd be the first, that's for sure... Much like marijuana from a street dealer, K2's ingredients are unknown, sure, but no cases of anybody dying from using it. You could argue about the kid who shot himself being paranoid under it's influence, but then, that's his tough luck for doing something that can alter your mood in the first place. The K2 would be just as alcohol is in a drunk driving accident... nobody twisted the drunk to get too intoxicated to drive, they have a choice to be stationary or call a cab or get a designated driver.

Society has already demonstrated the inability to control their actions using the legal recreational drugs we already have. Adding more recreational drugs just increases the number of people who have to turn to chemicals to escape a world they find unbearable to face without these crutches.

So your in favor of Government coming in and playing big brother?

When you make something like this "legal" you are saying as a comunity that this is acceptable, this is okay. I would never say anything like that to my kids.


So here is my view on stuff like this, if you would not give it to your kids, most likely it is bad for you too.

And if you read my first post, you'd see I never said anything about giving it to kids... in fact, I said one should be 21 to purchase it, just like one has to be 21 to purchase alcohol.

Obviously alcohol is bad for you too, yet FAT CHANCE that we will see it become illegal any time soon, so what's the difference between THAT and this little flower?
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[hugo]

You doing meth and killing my kid because you got behind the wheel, or was committing a crime to get more $$$ for more meth is where my line gets real fuzzy. and this part happens too often for my liking.

The reason people commit crimes to pay for illegal drugs is because the fact the drugs are illegal drives the price up. Your kid may be killed by a drive by shooter fighting over drug turf. Whole neighborhoods in the US and whole nations south of our border are in chaos due to the drug war.

 

[timesjoke]

Now why is it childish? Because you say so? Obviously, it's not sold over the counter to children, so it is not meant to be used in by children... therefore... not childish.

Lot's of actions by adults are childish in nature, it is a expression of a lack of maturity, the desire to screw with your brain to escape reality is one of these examples.

I call that making my own decision about it. It's people like you who are allegedly concerned about it, who make up the people who wanna make these things illegal.

I want to make irresponsibility illegal, it is not your own decision if someone else must pay the price for your decision.

I'd be the first, that's for sure... Much like marijuana from a street dealer, K2's ingredients are unknown, sure, but no cases of anybody dying from using it. You could argue about the kid who shot himself being paranoid under it's influence, but then, that's his tough luck for doing something that can alter your mood in the first place. The K2 would be just as alcohol is in a drunk driving accident... nobody twisted the drunk to get too intoxicated to drive, they have a choice to be stationary or call a cab or get a designated driver.

It does not matter if your the first or number 5,000,000. Either you would like your kids to grow up knowing their parent died doing something completely selfish and foolish just to get stoned or not.

How do you think it would effect a child's development not having a parent and knowing they don't have them because the parent did not care enough about them to avoid things like using recreational drugs?

So your in favor of Government coming in and playing big brother?

Working to eliminate things that are 100% harmful to society like murder, rape, and drugs sure. Are you against speeding laws? Is making people behave in a reasonable way on the roads playing big brother too? There is no possible way you can experiment with drugs without doing possible harm to another person.

And if you read my first post, you'd see I never said anything about giving it to kids... in fact, I said one should be 21 to purchase it, just like one has to be 21 to purchase alcohol.

Obviously alcohol is bad for you too, yet FAT CHANCE that we will see it become illegal any time soon, so what's the difference between THAT and this little flower?
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And kids get all the booze they want to the age restrictions do not stop kids from getting it.

If you use recreational drugs, then your telling your kids with your actions that it is good no matter what you say in words. Actions have always been louder than words so your usage will provide the example to all children that using recreational drugs is a good thing.

You doing meth and killing my kid because you got behind the wheel, or was committing a crime to get more $$$ for more meth is where my line gets real fuzzy. and this part happens too often for my liking.

The reason people commit crimes to pay for illegal drugs is because the fact the drugs are illegal drives the price up. Your kid may be killed by a drive by shooter fighting over drug turf. Whole neighborhoods in the US and whole nations south of our border are in chaos due to the drug war.

Once it is made legal and is subject to Government regulation the price will go up, not down. That was the biggest point Milton Freedmon kept trying to teach people about and so many people including hugo here can't seem to understand.

 

[phreakwars]

Nope, don't feel bad at all for doing something that is perfectly 100% legal to do in my state.

I also don't recall saying it would be something I would use frequently or even ever again.

I believe all I ever said, is that I tried it to see what the big deal was, and to give my honest opinion of what I thought about it.

My conclusion was that it needs to be regulated more so that one needs to be older to purchase it... Currently, you only need be 18.

Then you got TJ ranting on about **** I'd be doing in front of my kids...

3 points here:

1. It's perfectly legal (hey look kids, dad is doing something legal...don't do that!!)

2. I believe I stated my kids were staying over night at relatives houses and weren't around

3. I have more faith in my children that they would make their own decisions and judgments without me holding there hand.

If they wanna be influenced by me... fine, then do what I do. Or, perhaps they could always take the road that I followed when it comes to alcohol.

My dad was a big time alcoholic, as a result... myself and my 5 other brothers and sisters aren't much into drinking at all. Perhaps because we saw the bad decision in drinking and decided it wasn't right for us.

Proving alcoholism is NOT a genetic trait.

But of course, Mr. I hate the government, and I don't need big brother watching over me, & those damn liberals always trying to tell people how to live their lives... has NO PROBLEM with wanting the evil government to make something perfectly legal into something illegal and taboo... why? Because HE PERSONALLY wouldn't do it... it's childish.
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[mercury]

I haven't noticed any decrease in the number of addicts surrounding me since this whole "War on Drugs" thing started. If anything, I've noticed there are more of them (and there's never been a shortage of addicts in and around my life) and they choose "legal" drugs that are illegally obtained.

Up until about 5 years ago, I didn't know of a single heroin addict in my circle of family/friends/acquaintances; since then, I've learned of 3 deaths directly related to heroin use, and several more that have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. All of these people started out with legal prescriptions for Vicodin or OxyContin, but when those stopped being so easy to come by (like when the doctor prescribing them suddenly found himself being investigated for writing bogus prescriptions, or the pharmacy stopped filling those prescriptions for them, or the doctor that prescribed the drug that resulted in that addiction turned them away due to drug seeking behaviors) they turned to heroin, which is much cheaper and much easier to get their hands on, apparently.

Prescription drug abuse is way on the rise... and that sh t is legal! People use their prescriptions wrongly all the time. They share them with friends. They sell them on the street. They take more than directed.... Doctors turn regular people into addicts every day, then turn their backs when their patient REALLY needs their help.

The AMA recognizes addiction as a disease, yet those suffering from this disease are considered to be criminals. Many health insurance policies don't/won't cover rehab without a special rider. That alone makes no sense in my mind. If we were really serious about all of this, we'd be making sure there was a rehab in every community and make substance abuse treatment a mandatroy inclusion in every health insurance policy, rather than building larger prisons.

An addictive personality will find something to fulfill their need, legal or not. You can't stop it.... you can only criminalize it. And all that does is create more criminals, who are otherwise law abiding citizens.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Nope, don't feel bad at all for doing something that is perfectly 100% legal to do in my state.

I also don't recall saying it would be something I would use frequently or even ever again.

I believe all I ever said, is that I tried it to see what the big deal was, and to give my honest opinion of what I thought about it.

My conclusion was that it needs to be regulated more so that one needs to be older to purchase it... Currently, you only need be 18.

Then you got TJ ranting on about sh t I'd be doing in front of my kids...

3 points here:

1. It's perfectly legal (hey look kids, dad is doing something legal...don't do that!!)

2. I believe I stated my kids were staying over night at relatives houses and weren't around

3. I have more faith in my children that they would make their own decisions and judgments without me holding there hand.

If they wanna be influenced by me... fine, then do what I do. Or, perhaps they could always take the road that I followed when it comes to alcohol.

My dad was a big time alcoholic, as a result... myself and my 5 other brothers and sisters aren't much into drinking at all. Perhaps because we saw the bad decision in drinking and decided it wasn't right for us.

Proving alcoholism is NOT a genetic trait.

But of course, Mr. I hate the government, and I don't need big brother watching over me, & those damn liberals always trying to tell people how to live their lives... has NO PROBLEM with wanting the evil government to make something perfectly legal into something illegal and taboo... why? Because HE PERSONALLY wouldn't do it... it's childish.
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I agree with this.

 

[timesjoke]

Then you got TJ ranting on about sh t I'd be doing in front of my kids...

Where did I ever say you did it in front of your kids?


Why is it you socialists/progressives always have to insert lies into every discussion? You make it almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion because most of the ranting your making about me is about things I never said.





Consider this, let's take legal/illegal out of the picture for a second and look at it another way. If you were to die driving your car without wearing a seatbelt that would be stupid, but some people still refuse to wear their seatbelt. That seems like a personal choice and risk only you take but my point about your kids is that while what you do may seem like your personal choice, the possible harm from making that choice involves more than just you.


If you die because you refused to wear your seatbelt then your loved ones would suffer from that choice you made so that means it is not just a personal choice. Even if you have great life insurance, your kids grow up without a father and all the money in the world cannot make up for that.





Almost without exception, my possitions are about responsibility. To me, once you have children of your own, it is time to stop acting immature yourself and conduct yourself considering the needs of your children first.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Who should force you to be responsible?

 

[emkay64]

TJ is the responsiblest.