But they support the troops!

U

Ubiquitous

Guest
The ACLU sues an American company for helping the war effort.

BY DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. AND LEE A. CASEY
Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

President Bush must envy Franklin Roosevelt. Although he faced a difficult
two-front war in Asia and Europe, after Pearl Harbor Roosevelt led a united
nation.

The popular wartime slogans--formulated as often as not by government
information officers who would today be called propagandists--emphasized
political, social and economic solidarity. "Together, We Win" emphasized a
famous poster, showing the hands of labor and management brought together by
Uncle Sam. Those days, unfortunately, are long gone.

From the very beginning of the war on terror, there has been strong and vocal
opposition, both to the war itself and to the Bush administration's wartime
policies. This opposition has been celebrated and encouraged by much of the
media and, consistent with America's favorite pastime, has increasingly taken
the form of litigation in the courts.

The government itself has, of course, been subject to a blizzard of lawsuits.
Virtually every aspect of the administration's war on terror-related
policies--from the USA Patriot Act, to the use of military commissions to try
captured al Qaeda members for war crimes, to the National Security Agency's
Terrorist Surveillance Program, so-called data mining, no-fly lists and
related transportation security measures--has been challenged in court. On
balance the courts have upheld the administration's actions, or required
relatively modest changes--or additional congressional action in the case of
military commissions. Significantly, the Supreme Court has accepted the
legality of the president's adoption of a "laws of war paradigm."

It is, therefore, not surprising that the war's opponents have shifted tack.
On May 30, 2007, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit against
Jeppesen Dataplan Inc., a Boeing subsidiary specializing in air flight
planning services, in the federal district court in northern California. The
suit alleges that Jeppesen provided air flight services to the CIA as part of
the agency's "extraordinary rendition" program, through which the three
plaintiffs--citizens of Ethiopia, Italy and Egypt--were supposedly transferred
to Pakistani, Moroccan and Egyptian custody, where they were wrongfully
imprisoned and abused, up to and including torture.





The ACLU case is based on the 1789 Alien Tort Statute, or ATS, which gives the
federal courts authority to hear civil claims for certain narrowly drawn
breaches of customary international law. It's a real stretch. As the Supreme
Court stressed in its most recent ATS case, Sosa v. Alvarez-Machain (2004),
that law permits suits only where the alleged offense is firmly established as
a violation of international law for which individuals are entitled to be
compensated. These are very few and far between. Indeed, in the Sosa case the
court specifically rejected a claim for ATS relief based upon the forcible
abduction of a Mexican physician--wanted for alleged complicity in the death
of a DEA agent--and his transfer to authorities in the U.S. The defendant in
that case was far more directly involved in the alleged misconduct than was
Jeppesen.
Assuming that the case is not thrown out because of the well-recognized "state
secrets" privilege--as was a similar claim brought by Maher Arar, a Canadian
rendered by the U.S. authorities to Syria--the ACLU's complaint should quickly
be dismissed for failing to state a legally cognizable claim. Jeppesen did not
abuse the plaintiffs. It allegedly provided flight services, such as flight
plans, ground service and weather reports, to the CIA agents who rendered the
plaintiffs to foreign officials. There is nothing illegal about that, or about
the practice of rendition itself. This is a longstanding practice whereby one
country transfers a prisoner to another country regardless of whether they
have a formal extradition treaty.





Extraordinary rendition in terror cases has, in fact, been a bipartisan
practice, used both by Democratic and Republican presidents, beginning well
before the 9/11 attacks. Although it has strained U.S.-European relations in
recent years, extraordinary rendition does not violate international law; and
this is true even when the detainee is rendered to a country with a poor human
rights record.
In cases that pose a real risk that a particular detainee will be abused by
the receiving state, it is incumbent upon the sending state to obtain
sufficient assurances, as a condition of the transfer, that the individual
will be treated lawfully and humanely.

Indeed, despite the general condemnation of U.S. renditions by the European
media and EU institutions, a number of European states--as part of their own
post-9/11 antiterrorism measures--have sought to transfer or deport
individuals to countries with human-rights concerns based on exactly such
assurances. However, transport companies like Jeppesen are neither in a
position to know the particulars of these agreements nor to monitor their
implementation, and are moreover entitled to assume that the government
agencies they service are themselves acting lawfully.

Leaving aside the lack of legal merit, the ACLU's claims are part of a highly
troubling new trend. They are of a piece with a number of other ATS lawsuits
brought against government contractors, actions filed last year against
telecommunications companies alleging that they violated federally protected
privacy rights by cooperating with the NSA's data-collection efforts, and an
action, filed last March in Minnesota, against several airline passengers who
had reported what they believed to be suspicious activity by a group of Muslim
imams. The government enjoys legal immunities and other advantages in
litigation that private citizens do not have. Moreover, for a private
individual, a lawsuit, however meritless, can mean personal financial ruin
and, at a minimum, significant disruption in his life. Corporations are
similarly subject to costly and distracting litigation.





These are real advantages from an antiwar activist's perspective, since the
result is likely to be a marked aversion by the citizenry in general, and
government contractors in particular, to engage in conduct, however lawful,
supporting the war. This alteration in the corporate mind set, such that
risk-averse companies, no matter how patriotic their management, would find it
safer to say no to any war-related requests from the federal government is
very likely the goal of at least some activists.
Divided nations can, of course, win wars. Throughout the Civil War, for
example, President Lincoln faced a vocal and determined antiwar effort in the
North, and both Lincoln and Roosevelt had to defend various of their policies
in the courts. Even Lincoln, however, did not have to deal with antiwar
efforts targeting private citizens who were themselves supporting the
government's war effort. That is new, and it will make fighting and winning
the war against terror all the more difficult.
 
"Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote in message
news:H7OdnTQFSvbquOzbnZ2dnUVZ_tDinZ2d@giganews.com...
> The ACLU sues an American company for helping the war effort.
>
> BY DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. AND LEE A. CASEY
> Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT


Ummm exactly who are these people, and why should anyone give a damn what
they bellow?



>
> President Bush must envy Franklin Roosevelt. Although he faced a difficult
> two-front war in Asia and Europe, after Pearl Harbor Roosevelt led a
> united
> nation.


That's because that was a completely different action, led by a vompletely
different president.


>
> The popular wartime slogans--formulated as often as not by government
> information officers who would today be called propagandists--emphasized
> political, social and economic solidarity. "Together, We Win" emphasized a
> famous poster, showing the hands of labor and management brought together
> by
> Uncle Sam. Those days, unfortunately, are long gone.



Unfortunately?
That the truth be told, rather than government propaganda, is unfortunate?
and you wonder why people call conservative republicans, Nazis?




>
> From the very beginning of the war on terror, there has been strong and
> vocal
> opposition, both to the war itself and to the Bush administration's
> wartime
> policies. This opposition has been celebrated and encouraged by much of
> the
> media and, consistent with America's favorite pastime, has increasingly
> taken
> the form of litigation in the courts.


Bush is insane, mentally corrupt and persuing an illegal invasion of another
nation without JUST CAUSE!
To oppose him and his war is not only a right of all Americans, but it is
the DUTY of people concerned with stopping the Bush/conservative republican
dictatorship.


>
> The government itself has, of course, been subject to a blizzard of
> lawsuits.
> Virtually every aspect of the administration's war on terror-related
> policies--from the USA Patriot Act, to the use of military commissions to
> try
> captured al Qaeda members for war crimes, to the National Security
> Agency's
> Terrorist Surveillance Program, so-called data mining, no-fly lists and
> related transportation security measures--has been challenged in court.


Yep - because they're unconstitutional.
you remember the Constitution .......... don't you!?!?!?!?!?
 
Ubiquitous wrote:


> President Bush must envy Franklin Roosevelt. Although he faced a difficult
> two-front war in Asia and Europe, after Pearl Harbor Roosevelt led a
> united nation.
>



Roosevelt was not directly involved in the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor.
That, in itself, is a fundamental difference.




>
> From the very beginning of the war on terror, there has been strong and
> vocal opposition, both to the war itself and to the Bush administration's
> wartime policies. This opposition has been celebrated and encouraged by
> much of the media and, consistent with America's favorite pastime, has
> increasingly taken the form of litigation in the courts.
>



The media has largely rolled over and played dead. They are releasing
little gems of info in a piecemeal fashion but in large part they have
abandoned their responsibility to our nation.




> The government itself has, of course, been subject to a blizzard of
> lawsuits. Virtually every aspect of the administration's war on
> terror-related policies--from the USA Patriot Act, to the use of military
> commissions to try captured al Qaeda members for war crimes, to the
> National Security Agency's Terrorist Surveillance Program, so-called data
> mining, no-fly lists and related transportation security measures--has
> been challenged in court. On balance the courts have upheld the
> administration's actions, or required relatively modest changes--or
> additional congressional action in the case of military commissions.
> Significantly, the Supreme Court has accepted the legality of the
> president's adoption of a "laws of war paradigm."
>



You are pointing out just how badly broken our judicial system is broken.
The Patriot Act is clearly unconstitutional. The massive wiretapping
programs are illegal. Let's face it - significant parts of this
administration's behavior is illegal.


> It is, therefore, not surprising that the war's opponents have shifted
> tack. On May 30, 2007, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit
> against Jeppesen Dataplan Inc., a Boeing subsidiary specializing in air
> flight planning services, in the federal district court in northern
> California. The suit alleges that Jeppesen provided air flight services to
> the CIA as part of the agency's "extraordinary rendition" program, through
> which the three plaintiffs--citizens of Ethiopia, Italy and Egypt--were
> supposedly transferred to Pakistani, Moroccan and Egyptian custody, where
> they were wrongfully imprisoned and abused, up to and including torture.
>
>


And every single American should be thanking them. Further, we should all
be seeking ways to help the ACLU thru donations of money, time or other
resources.



>
>
>
> The ACLU case is based on the 1789 Alien Tort Statute, or ATS, which gives
> the federal courts authority to hear civil claims for certain narrowly
> drawn breaches of customary international law. It's a real stretch.




The real problem is the the International Criminal Court has (not yet) gone
after Bush and his cronies for criminal violations of international and
domestic laws.

These Bush victims should not only be compensated, they should be
compensated with the seized personal assets of Bush and every member of
his administration.





> Assuming that the case is not thrown out because of the well-recognized
> "state secrets" privilege--as was a similar claim brought by Maher Arar, a
> Canadian rendered by the U.S. authorities to Syria--the ACLU's complaint
> should quickly be dismissed for failing to state a legally cognizable
> claim. Jeppesen did not abuse the plaintiffs. It allegedly provided flight
> services, such as flight plans, ground service and weather reports, to the
> CIA agents who rendered the plaintiffs to foreign officials. There is
> nothing illegal about that, or about the practice of rendition itself.
> This is a longstanding practice whereby one country transfers a prisoner
> to another country regardless of whether they have a formal extradition
> treaty.
>
>



State secrets privilege is a legal fallacy. It exists to allow those in
power to hide criminal activities. It's a policy that needs to be
corrected by whatever methods are available. Now, not later.

Kidnapping is illegal and should be heard in the ICC. We need thoughtful
people of integrity in foreign lands to start prosecutions of this
administration in the ICC and other courts as may exist in foreign lands.

Germany has already proved they don't have the backbone required. I wonder
what nation will have the spine required to stand up to this monster?



>
>
>
> Extraordinary rendition in terror cases has, in fact, been a bipartisan
> practice, used both by Democratic and Republican presidents, beginning
> well before the 9/11 attacks. Although it has strained U.S.-European
> relations in recent years, extraordinary rendition does not violate
> international law; and this is true even when the detainee is rendered to
> a country with a poor human rights record.




The fact that it has not been prosecuted does not in any way mean that it is
not illegal and actionable.



> In cases that pose a real risk that a particular detainee will be abused
> by the receiving state, it is incumbent upon the sending state to obtain
> sufficient assurances, as a condition of the transfer, that the individual
> will be treated lawfully and humanely.
>



What planet are you from? See Iraqi detainee death certificates on the ACLU
site.

Maybe you're one of those that believes a plastic bag over the head is
perfectly ok. A significant part of the world will disagree.



> Indeed, despite the general condemnation of U.S. renditions by the
> European media and EU institutions, a number of European states--as part
> of their own post-9/11 antiterrorism measures--have sought to transfer or
> deport individuals to countries with human-rights concerns based on
> exactly such assurances. However, transport companies like Jeppesen are
> neither in a position to know the particulars of these agreements nor to
> monitor their implementation, and are moreover entitled to assume that the
> government agencies they service are themselves acting lawfully.
>



Historical government records show that the US government usually does what
it wants and then walks away from any criminal responsibility. As stated
before, a failure of authorities to prosecute US government crimes does not
mean this criminal behavior was lawful. It simply means that the wolves
are guarding the henhouse.



> Leaving aside the lack of legal merit, the ACLU's claims are part of a
> highly troubling new trend. They are of a piece with a number of other ATS
> lawsuits brought against government contractors, actions filed last year
> against telecommunications companies alleging that they violated federally
> protected privacy rights by cooperating with the NSA's data-collection
> efforts, and an action, filed last March in Minnesota, against several
> airline passengers who had reported what they believed to be suspicious
> activity by a group of Muslim imams. The government enjoys legal
> immunities and other advantages in litigation that private citizens do not
> have. Moreover, for a private individual, a lawsuit, however meritless,
> can mean personal financial ruin and, at a minimum, significant disruption
> in his life. Corporations are similarly subject to costly and distracting
> litigation.
>




That's why we desperately need foreign nations of integrity to step up to
the plate and press criminal charges (as well as civil charges). The
overriding issue here is justice.
 
On Jun 14, 7:23 am, Ubiquitous <web...@polaris.net> wrote:
> The ACLU sues an American company for helping the war effort.


ferrying kidnapped people to countries where they can be tortured by
means not legal to use in the US is now "helping the war effort"? that
used to be called 'accessory after the fact'. Geez, to think it's
illegal to carry a minor across state lines for immoral purposes, this
oughta come somewhere under that heading.

>
> BY DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. AND LEE A. CASEY
> Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
>
> President Bush must envy Franklin Roosevelt. Although he faced a difficult
> two-front war in Asia and Europe, after Pearl Harbor Roosevelt led a united
> nation.
>
> The popular wartime slogans--formulated as often as not by government
> information officers who would today be called propagandists--emphasized
> political, social and economic solidarity. "Together, We Win" emphasized a
> famous poster, showing the hands of labor and management brought together by
> Uncle Sam. Those days, unfortunately, are long gone.
>
> From the very beginning of the war on terror, there has been strong and vocal
> opposition, both to the war itself and to the Bush administration's wartime
> policies. This opposition has been celebrated and encouraged by much of the
> media and, consistent with America's favorite pastime, has increasingly taken
> the form of litigation in the courts.
>
> The government itself has, of course, been subject to a blizzard of lawsuits.
> Virtually every aspect of the administration's war on terror-related
> policies--from the USA Patriot Act, to the use of military commissions to try
> captured al Qaeda members for war crimes, to the National Security Agency's
> Terrorist Surveillance Program, so-called data mining, no-fly lists and
> related transportation security measures--has been challenged in court. On
> balance the courts have upheld the administration's actions, or required
> relatively modest changes--or additional congressional action in the case of
> military commissions. Significantly, the Supreme Court has accepted the
> legality of the president's adoption of a "laws of war paradigm."
>
> It is, therefore, not surprising that the war's opponents have shifted tack.
> On May 30, 2007, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit against
> Jeppesen Dataplan Inc., a Boeing subsidiary specializing in air flight
> planning services, in the federal district court in northern California. The
> suit alleges that Jeppesen provided air flight services to the CIA as part of
> the agency's "extraordinary rendition" program, through which the three
> plaintiffs--citizens of Ethiopia, Italy and Egypt--were supposedly transferred
> to Pakistani, Moroccan and Egyptian custody, where they were wrongfully
> imprisoned and abused, up to and including torture.
>
> The ACLU case is based on the 1789 Alien Tort Statute, or ATS, which gives the
> federal courts authority to hear civil claims for certain narrowly drawn
> breaches of customary international law. It's a real stretch. As the Supreme
> Court stressed in its most recent ATS case, Sosa v. Alvarez-Machain (2004),
> that law permits suits only where the alleged offense is firmly established as
> a violation of international law for which individuals are entitled to be
> compensated. These are very few and far between. Indeed, in the Sosa case the
> court specifically rejected a claim for ATS relief based upon the forcible
> abduction of a Mexican physician--wanted for alleged complicity in the death
> of a DEA agent--and his transfer to authorities in the U.S. The defendant in
> that case was far more directly involved in the alleged misconduct than was
> Jeppesen.
> Assuming that the case is not thrown out because of the well-recognized "state
> secrets" privilege--as was a similar claim brought by Maher Arar, a Canadian
> rendered by the U.S. authorities to Syria--the ACLU's complaint should quickly
> be dismissed for failing to state a legally cognizable claim. Jeppesen did not
> abuse the plaintiffs. It allegedly provided flight services, such as flight
> plans, ground service and weather reports, to the CIA agents who rendered the
> plaintiffs to foreign officials. There is nothing illegal about that, or about
> the practice of rendition itself. This is a longstanding practice whereby one
> country transfers a prisoner to another country regardless of whether they
> have a formal extradition treaty.
>
> Extraordinary rendition in terror cases has, in fact, been a bipartisan
> practice, used both by Democratic and Republican presidents, beginning well
> before the 9/11 attacks. Although it has strained U.S.-European relations in
> recent years, extraordinary rendition does not violate international law; and
> this is true even when the detainee is rendered to a country with a poor human
> rights record.
> In cases that pose a real risk that a particular detainee will be abused by
> the receiving state, it is incumbent upon the sending state to obtain
> sufficient assurances, as a condition of the transfer, that the individual
> will be treated lawfully and humanely.
>
> Indeed, despite the general condemnation of U.S. renditions by the European
> media and EU institutions, a number of European states--as part of their own
> post-9/11 antiterrorism measures--have sought to transfer or deport
> individuals to countries with human-rights concerns based on exactly such
> assurances. However, transport companies like Jeppesen are neither in a
> position to know the particulars of these agreements nor to monitor their
> implementation, and are moreover entitled to assume that the government
> agencies they service are themselves acting lawfully.
>
> Leaving aside the lack of legal merit, the ACLU's claims are part of a highly
> troubling new trend. They are of a piece with a number of other ATS lawsuits
> brought against government contractors, actions filed last year against
> telecommunications companies alleging that they violated federally protected
> privacy rights by cooperating with the NSA's data-collection efforts, and an
> action, filed last March in Minnesota, against several airline passengers who
> had reported what they believed to be suspicious activity by a group of Muslim
> imams. The government enjoys legal immunities and other advantages in
> litigation that private citizens do not have. Moreover, for a private
> individual, a lawsuit, however meritless, can mean personal financial ruin
> and, at a minimum, significant disruption in his life. Corporations are
> similarly subject to costly and distracting litigation.
>
> These are real advantages from an antiwar activist's perspective, since the
> result is likely to be a marked aversion by the citizenry in general, and
> government contractors in particular, to engage in conduct, however lawful,
> supporting the war. This alteration in the corporate mind set, such that
> risk-averse companies, no matter how patriotic their management, would find it
> safer to say no to any war-related requests from the federal government is
> very likely the goal of at least some activists.
> Divided nations can, of course, win wars. Throughout the Civil War, for
> example, President Lincoln faced a vocal and determined antiwar effort in the
> North, and both Lincoln and Roosevelt had to defend various of their policies
> in the courts. Even Lincoln, however, did not have to deal with antiwar
> efforts targeting private citizens who were themselves supporting the
> government's war effort. That is new, and it will make fighting and winning
> the war against terror all the more difficult.
 
"Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote in message
news:H7OdnTQFSvbquOzbnZ2dnUVZ_tDinZ2d@giganews.com...
> The ACLU sues an American company for helping the war effort.
>
> BY DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. AND LEE A. CASEY
> Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
>
> President Bush must envy Franklin Roosevelt. Although he faced a difficult
> two-front war in Asia and Europe, after Pearl Harbor Roosevelt led a
> united
> nation.


reading the article shows this has nothing to do with the war. morons.

>
> The popular wartime slogans--formulated as often as not by government
> information officers who would today be called propagandists--emphasized
> political, social and economic solidarity. "Together, We Win" emphasized a
> famous poster, showing the hands of labor and management brought together
> by
> Uncle Sam. Those days, unfortunately, are long gone.
>
> From the very beginning of the war on terror, there has been strong and
> vocal
> opposition, both to the war itself and to the Bush administration's
> wartime
> policies. This opposition has been celebrated and encouraged by much of
> the
> media and, consistent with America's favorite pastime, has increasingly
> taken
> the form of litigation in the courts.
>
> The government itself has, of course, been subject to a blizzard of
> lawsuits.
> Virtually every aspect of the administration's war on terror-related
> policies--from the USA Patriot Act, to the use of military commissions to
> try
> captured al Qaeda members for war crimes, to the National Security
> Agency's
> Terrorist Surveillance Program, so-called data mining, no-fly lists and
> related transportation security measures--has been challenged in court. On
> balance the courts have upheld the administration's actions, or required
> relatively modest changes--or additional congressional action in the case
> of
> military commissions. Significantly, the Supreme Court has accepted the
> legality of the president's adoption of a "laws of war paradigm."
>
> It is, therefore, not surprising that the war's opponents have shifted
> tack.
> On May 30, 2007, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit
> against
> Jeppesen Dataplan Inc., a Boeing subsidiary specializing in air flight
> planning services, in the federal district court in northern California.
> The
> suit alleges that Jeppesen provided air flight services to the CIA as part
> of
> the agency's "extraordinary rendition" program, through which the three
> plaintiffs--citizens of Ethiopia, Italy and Egypt--were supposedly
> transferred
> to Pakistani, Moroccan and Egyptian custody, where they were wrongfully
> imprisoned and abused, up to and including torture.
>
>
>
>
>
> The ACLU case is based on the 1789 Alien Tort Statute, or ATS, which gives
> the
> federal courts authority to hear civil claims for certain narrowly drawn
> breaches of customary international law. It's a real stretch. As the
> Supreme
> Court stressed in its most recent ATS case, Sosa v. Alvarez-Machain
> (2004),
> that law permits suits only where the alleged offense is firmly
> established as
> a violation of international law for which individuals are entitled to be
> compensated. These are very few and far between. Indeed, in the Sosa case
> the
> court specifically rejected a claim for ATS relief based upon the forcible
> abduction of a Mexican physician--wanted for alleged complicity in the
> death
> of a DEA agent--and his transfer to authorities in the U.S. The defendant
> in
> that case was far more directly involved in the alleged misconduct than
> was
> Jeppesen.
> Assuming that the case is not thrown out because of the well-recognized
> "state
> secrets" privilege--as was a similar claim brought by Maher Arar, a
> Canadian
> rendered by the U.S. authorities to Syria--the ACLU's complaint should
> quickly
> be dismissed for failing to state a legally cognizable claim. Jeppesen did
> not
> abuse the plaintiffs. It allegedly provided flight services, such as
> flight
> plans, ground service and weather reports, to the CIA agents who rendered
> the
> plaintiffs to foreign officials. There is nothing illegal about that, or
> about
> the practice of rendition itself. This is a longstanding practice whereby
> one
> country transfers a prisoner to another country regardless of whether they
> have a formal extradition treaty.
>
>
>
>
>
> Extraordinary rendition in terror cases has, in fact, been a bipartisan
> practice, used both by Democratic and Republican presidents, beginning
> well
> before the 9/11 attacks. Although it has strained U.S.-European relations
> in
> recent years, extraordinary rendition does not violate international law;
> and
> this is true even when the detainee is rendered to a country with a poor
> human
> rights record.
> In cases that pose a real risk that a particular detainee will be abused
> by
> the receiving state, it is incumbent upon the sending state to obtain
> sufficient assurances, as a condition of the transfer, that the individual
> will be treated lawfully and humanely.
>
> Indeed, despite the general condemnation of U.S. renditions by the
> European
> media and EU institutions, a number of European states--as part of their
> own
> post-9/11 antiterrorism measures--have sought to transfer or deport
> individuals to countries with human-rights concerns based on exactly such
> assurances. However, transport companies like Jeppesen are neither in a
> position to know the particulars of these agreements nor to monitor their
> implementation, and are moreover entitled to assume that the government
> agencies they service are themselves acting lawfully.
>
> Leaving aside the lack of legal merit, the ACLU's claims are part of a
> highly
> troubling new trend. They are of a piece with a number of other ATS
> lawsuits
> brought against government contractors, actions filed last year against
> telecommunications companies alleging that they violated federally
> protected
> privacy rights by cooperating with the NSA's data-collection efforts, and
> an
> action, filed last March in Minnesota, against several airline passengers
> who
> had reported what they believed to be suspicious activity by a group of
> Muslim
> imams. The government enjoys legal immunities and other advantages in
> litigation that private citizens do not have. Moreover, for a private
> individual, a lawsuit, however meritless, can mean personal financial ruin
> and, at a minimum, significant disruption in his life. Corporations are
> similarly subject to costly and distracting litigation.
>
>
>
>
>
> These are real advantages from an antiwar activist's perspective, since
> the
> result is likely to be a marked aversion by the citizenry in general, and
> government contractors in particular, to engage in conduct, however
> lawful,
> supporting the war. This alteration in the corporate mind set, such that
> risk-averse companies, no matter how patriotic their management, would
> find it
> safer to say no to any war-related requests from the federal government is
> very likely the goal of at least some activists.
> Divided nations can, of course, win wars. Throughout the Civil War, for
> example, President Lincoln faced a vocal and determined antiwar effort in
> the
> North, and both Lincoln and Roosevelt had to defend various of their
> policies
> in the courts. Even Lincoln, however, did not have to deal with antiwar
> efforts targeting private citizens who were themselves supporting the
> government's war effort. That is new, and it will make fighting and
> winning
> the war against terror all the more difficult.
>
>
 
From the Hill:

Congress's failure to secure a timetable for withdrawing American
troops from Iraq has split anti-war activists on the tactical
question of whether to attack Democrats, who now control Capitol
Hill.

The split has also underlined accusations among some activists that
MoveOn has abandoned its credentials as an issue-based advocacy
group and now instead provides cover for Democratic Party leaders.

We guess we should apologize for our August 2003 characterization of MoveOn as
a "far-left, pro-Saddam group." It seems they're actually just a bunch of
partisans. How disappointing.
 
Today's New York Times features one of the silliest op-eds ever. The authors
are Wesley Clark, the retired general and 2004 presidential candidate, and Kal
Raustiala, director of the UCLA's Burkle Center, where Clark is a fellow. (The
Burkle Center is named for Ron Burkle, a billionaire pal of Bill Clinton.)

Here is there argument:

Since 9/11 the Bush administration has sought to categorize
members of Al Qaeda and other jihadists as "unlawful combatants"
rather than treat them as criminals. . . .

Treating terrorists as combatants is a mistake for two reasons.
First, it dignifies criminality by according terrorist killers
the status of soldiers...

Critics have rightly pointed out that traditional categories
of combatant and civilian are muddled in a struggle against
terrorists. In a traditional war, combatants and civilians are
relatively easy to distinguish. The 9/11 hijackers, by contrast,
dressed in ordinary clothes and hid their weapons. They acted
not as citizens of Saudi Arabia, an ally of America, but as
members of Al Qaeda, a shadowy transnational network. And their
prime targets were innocent civilians.

By treating such terrorists as combatants, however, we accord
them a mark of respect and dignify their acts. And we undercut
our own efforts against them in the process. Al Qaeda represents
no state, nor does it carry out any of a state's responsibilities
for the welfare of its citizens. Labeling its members as
combatants elevates its cause and gives Al Qaeda an undeserved
status. . . .

The more appropriate designation for terrorists is not "unlawful
combatant" but the one long used by the United States: criminal.

This is so vapid, it does not even rise to the level of sophistry. The authors
argue that the U.S. should "designate" terrorists as "criminals" rather than
"unlawful combatants" for purely rhetorical reasons: because calling someone a
"criminal" implies less "respect" and does not "dignify" him.

The rhetorical argument can be dispensed with in a single rhetorical question:
What do these guys think unlawful means?

But their proposal has enormous substantive implications, to which they appear
to have given only the most shallow consideration. To begin with, the
government cannot simply "designate" anyone a criminal. Such a designation
requires either the criminal's consent (in the form of a guilty plea) or a
conviction at trial.

The government can designate someone a criminal suspect or defendant, but this
confers on him a panoply of legal rights. Among them are the right to be
released if not charged or convicted, which can make it possible for even a
guilty man to go free; and the right against self-incrimination, which would
make it difficult if not impossible to interrogate terrorists for the purpose
of gathering intelligence to capture other terrorists or prevent future
attacks.

The criminal justice system is fundamentally punitive, not preventive. The
purpose of declaring someone a combatant is to keep him off the battlefield,
thereby weakening the enemy's ability to attack in the future. The justice
system can do nothing about a "crime" that has not yet been convicted.

Even legitimate enemy combatants--i.e., uniformed soldiers--do not have the
rights accorded criminal defendants in the justice system. The former may be
held for the duration of armed conflict. It is perverse to suggest that
terrorists should have more rights than legitimate soldiers.

What Clark and Raustiala propose is to treat terrorists as civilians. The
result of their proposal would be to put actual civilians, including women and
children, in greater danger by making it harder to prevent terrorist attacks.
The claimed benefit is that calling terrorists "criminals" would deprive them
of respect.

How many innocent lives are they willing to sacrifice for an exercise in
name-calling? To our mind, the only sensible answer is zero.
 
"Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote in message
news:faWdnStWb9wjyiHbnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Today's New York Times features one of the silliest op-eds ever. The
> authors
> are Wesley Clark, the retired general and 2004 presidential candidate, and
> Kal
> Raustiala, director of the UCLA's Burkle Center, where Clark is a fellow.
> (The
> Burkle Center is named for Ron Burkle, a billionaire pal of Bill Clinton.)
> Here is there argument:
> [...]
> How many innocent lives are they willing to sacrifice for an exercise in
> name-calling? To our mind, the only sensible answer is zero.


Sounds like a feminine attempt to exonerate Clinton for his repeated
failures to get Osama and stop Al Qaeda using the failed law enforcement
approach.

Clark is a gutless coward, a traitor, and a paid tool of George Soros.
 
Is there anything sillier than reading a republican view of what democrat's
really think (or of the democratic view of what republican's really think?)

You would do better just making your arguments rather than interpreting what
it is you think that democrats mean and then refuting the words and thoughts
that you wrote and claimed were the real thoughts and meanings of the
democrats. I know that this has become one of the favored methods of
demonizing all things democratic or liberal or progressive but do you really
think people are so stupid that they do not see that you set up both sides
of the debate and then somehow win the argument?

G


"Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote in message
news:faWdnStWb9wjyiHbnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Today's New York Times features one of the silliest op-eds ever. The
> authors
> are Wesley Clark, the retired general and 2004 presidential candidate, and
> Kal
> Raustiala, director of the UCLA's Burkle Center, where Clark is a fellow.
> (The
> Burkle Center is named for Ron Burkle, a billionaire pal of Bill Clinton.)
>
> Here is there argument:
>
> Since 9/11 the Bush administration has sought to categorize
> members of Al Qaeda and other jihadists as "unlawful combatants"
> rather than treat them as criminals. . . .
>
> Treating terrorists as combatants is a mistake for two reasons.
> First, it dignifies criminality by according terrorist killers
> the status of soldiers...
>
> Critics have rightly pointed out that traditional categories
> of combatant and civilian are muddled in a struggle against
> terrorists. In a traditional war, combatants and civilians are
> relatively easy to distinguish. The 9/11 hijackers, by contrast,
> dressed in ordinary clothes and hid their weapons. They acted
> not as citizens of Saudi Arabia, an ally of America, but as
> members of Al Qaeda, a shadowy transnational network. And their
> prime targets were innocent civilians.
>
> By treating such terrorists as combatants, however, we accord
> them a mark of respect and dignify their acts. And we undercut
> our own efforts against them in the process. Al Qaeda represents
> no state, nor does it carry out any of a state's responsibilities
> for the welfare of its citizens. Labeling its members as
> combatants elevates its cause and gives Al Qaeda an undeserved
> status. . . .
>
> The more appropriate designation for terrorists is not "unlawful
> combatant" but the one long used by the United States: criminal.
>
> This is so vapid, it does not even rise to the level of sophistry. The
> authors
> argue that the U.S. should "designate" terrorists as "criminals" rather
> than
> "unlawful combatants" for purely rhetorical reasons: because calling
> someone a
> "criminal" implies less "respect" and does not "dignify" him.
>
> The rhetorical argument can be dispensed with in a single rhetorical
> question:
> What do these guys think unlawful means?
>
> But their proposal has enormous substantive implications, to which they
> appear
> to have given only the most shallow consideration. To begin with, the
> government cannot simply "designate" anyone a criminal. Such a designation
> requires either the criminal's consent (in the form of a guilty plea) or a
> conviction at trial.
>
> The government can designate someone a criminal suspect or defendant, but
> this
> confers on him a panoply of legal rights. Among them are the right to be
> released if not charged or convicted, which can make it possible for even
> a
> guilty man to go free; and the right against self-incrimination, which
> would
> make it difficult if not impossible to interrogate terrorists for the
> purpose
> of gathering intelligence to capture other terrorists or prevent future
> attacks.
>
> The criminal justice system is fundamentally punitive, not preventive. The
> purpose of declaring someone a combatant is to keep him off the
> battlefield,
> thereby weakening the enemy's ability to attack in the future. The justice
> system can do nothing about a "crime" that has not yet been convicted.
>
> Even legitimate enemy combatants--i.e., uniformed soldiers--do not have
> the
> rights accorded criminal defendants in the justice system. The former may
> be
> held for the duration of armed conflict. It is perverse to suggest that
> terrorists should have more rights than legitimate soldiers.
>
> What Clark and Raustiala propose is to treat terrorists as civilians. The
> result of their proposal would be to put actual civilians, including women
> and
> children, in greater danger by making it harder to prevent terrorist
> attacks.
> The claimed benefit is that calling terrorists "criminals" would deprive
> them
> of respect.
>
> How many innocent lives are they willing to sacrifice for an exercise in
> name-calling? To our mind, the only sensible answer is zero.
>
>
 
"Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote in message
news:46bc881f$0$20539$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

, the only sensible answer is zero.
>
> Sounds like a feminine attempt to exonerate Clinton for his repeated
> failures to get Osama and stop Al Qaeda using the failed law enforcement
> approach.


EARLY 2001 - WHITE HOUSE DEPARTS FROM EFFORTS TO TRACK TERRORIST
MONEY: The new Bush Treasury Department "disapproved of the Clinton
Administration's approach to money laundering issues, which had been an
important part of the drive to cut off the money flow to bin Laden."
Specifically, the Bush Administration opposed Clinton
Administration-backed efforts by the G-7 and the Organization for
Economic Cooperation and Development that targeted countries with
"loose banking regulations" being abused by terrorist financiers.
Meanwhile, the Bush Administration provided "no funding for the new
National Terrorist Asset Tracking Center." [Source: The Age of Sacred
Terror, 2003]

APRIL 30, 2001 - BUSH ADMINISTRATION SAYS BIN LADEN FOCUS WAS
"MISTAKE": The Bush Administration released the government's annual
report on terrorism, but unlike previous Administrations, it decided to
specifically omit an "extensive mention of alleged terrorist mastermind
Osama bin Laden. A senior State Department official told CNN the U.S.
government made a mistake in focusing so much energy on bin Laden."
Similarly, AP reported in 2002 that the Bush Administration's "national
security leadership met formally nearly 100 times in the months prior
to the Sept. 11 attacks yet terrorism was the topic during only two of
those sessions." [Source: CNN, 4/30/01; AP, 6/29/01]

The federal government was rapidly increasing its counter-terrorism
efforts at the time President Bush took office. As the New York Times
reported, Attorney General Janet Reno ended her tenure as "perhaps the
strongest advocate" of counterterrorism spending. Similarly, Newsweek
and the Washington Post reported National Security Adviser Sandy Berger
was "totally preoccupied" with the prospect of a domestic terror
attack, telling his replacement that they need to be "spending more
time on this issue" than on any other. The focus changed dramatically
when the Bush Administration took office.

ADMINISTRATION SHIFTED LAW ENFORCEMENT'S FOCUS OFF OF
COUNTER-TERRORISM: The New York Times reported that in the lead-up to
9/11, Attorney General John Ashcroft "said fighting terrorism was a top
priority of his agency," yet upon entering office, "he identified more
than a dozen other objectives for greater emphasis within the Justice
Department before the attacks." On Aug. 9, the Administration
distributed a strategic plan to the Justice Department highlighting its
new goals from a list of Clinton Administration goals. The item that
referred to intelligence and investigation of terrorists was left
un-highlighted. [Source: NY Times, 2/28/02]

ASHCROFT OVERRULED EFFORTS FOCUSED ON COUNTER-TERROR: Newsweek reported
that "in the spring of 2001, the attorney general had an extraordinary
confrontation with the then FBI Director Louis Freeh at an annual
meeting of special agents." The two talked before appearing, and
Ashcroft laid out his priorities for Freeh: "basically violent crime
and drugs," recalls one participant. Freeh replied bluntly that those
were not his priorities, and began to talk about terror and
counterterrorism. "Ashcroft didn't want to hear about it," says a
former senior law-enforcement official." [Source: Newsweek, 5/27/02]

BUSH ADMINISTRATION TERMINATED PROGRAM THAT TRACKED AL QAEDA: "In the
months before 9/11, the U.S. Justice Department curtailed a highly
classified program called 'Catcher's Mitt' to monitor Al Qaeda suspects
in the United States." [Source: Newsweek, 3/21/04]

SO LITTLE CONCERN FOR COUNTER-TERROR THAT A WHITE HOUSE TASK FORCE
NEVER MET: In January of 2001, the U.S. Government's bipartisan
Commission on National Security gave the White House a report that
warned of an attack on the homeland and urged the new Administration to
implement its specific "recommendations to prevent acts of domestic
terrorism. The Administration rejected the Commission's report,
"preferring to put aside the recommendations." Instead, the
Administration waited until May of 2001 to appoint Vice President
Cheney to head a task force "to combat terrorist attacks on the United
States." But according to the Washington Post, neither "Cheney's review
nor Bush's took place." Meanwhile, Newsweek reported that when senators
"sent a copy of draft legislation on counterterrorism and homeland
defense to Cheney's office on July 20," they were told by Cheney's top
aide "that it might be another six months before he would be able to
review the material." [Source: Salon, 9/12/04; White House release,
5/8/01; Washington Post, 1/20/02; Newsweek, 5/27/02]

WHITE HOUSE BEGAN EFFORT TO CUT COUNTER-TERRORISM PROGRAMS: The New
York Times reported that in its final 2003 budget request, the
Administration "called for spending increases in 68 programs, none of
which directly involved counterterrorism...In his Sept. 10 submission
to the budget office, Ashcroft did not endorse FBI requests for $58
million for 149 new counterterrorism field agents, 200 intelligence
analysts and 54 additional translators. Ashcroft proposed a $65 million
cut for a program that gives states and localities counterterrorism
grants for equipment, including radios and decontamination suits and
training." By comparison, "Under Janet Reno, the department's
counterterrorism budget increased 13.6% in the fiscal year 1999, 7.1%
in 2000 and 22.7% in 2001." [Source: NY Times, 2/28/02]

ADMINISTRATION LEFT "GAPS" IN MILITARY'S REQUEST FOR COUNTER-TERROR
FUNDS: The Washington Post reported that in its first budget, the White
House left "gaps" between "what military commanders said they needed to
combat terrorists and what they got." Newsweek noted that, among other
things, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld elected not to re-launch a
Predator drone that had been tracking bin Laden. When the Senate Armed
Services Committee tried to fill those gaps, "Rumsfeld said he would
recommend a veto" on September 9. [Source: Washington Post, 1/20/02;
Newsweek, 5/27/02; NY Times, 2/28/02]

ADMINISTRATION STOPPED PREDATOR FLIGHTS TRACKING AL QAEDA IN
AFGHANISTAN: AP reported "though Predator drones spotted Osama bin
Laden as many as three times in late 2000, the Bush administration did
not fly the unmanned planes over Afghanistan during its first eight
months." Additionally, "the military successfully tested an armed
Predator throughout the first half of 2001" but the White House "failed
to resolve a debate over whether the CIA or Pentagon should operate the
armed Predators" and the armed Predator never got off the ground before
9/11. [Source: AP, 6/25/03]

WHILE CUTTING COUNTER-TERROR, THE WHITE HOUSE SENT FUNDING TO THE
TALIBAN: At the same time the White House was trying to cut
counter-terrorism funding, it gave "$43 million in drought aid to
Afghanistan after the Taliban began a campaign against poppy growers."
As the 5/29/01 edition of Newsday noted, the Taliban rulers of
Afghanistan "are a decidedly odd choice for an outright gift of $43
million from the Bush Administration. This is the same government
against which the United Nation imposes sanctions, at the behest of the
United States, for refusing to turn over the terrorist mastermind Osama
bin Laden." [Washington Post, 9/23/01; Newsday, 5/29/01]

--
"History! Read it and weep!"
-Bokonon
_______________________________________________
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
 
Ubiquitous wrote:
> Today's New York Times features one of the silliest op-eds ever. The authors
> are Wesley Clark, the retired general and 2004 presidential candidate, and Kal
> Raustiala, director of the UCLA's Burkle Center, where Clark is a fellow. (The
> Burkle Center is named for Ron Burkle, a billionaire pal of Bill Clinton.)
>
> Here is there argument:
>
> Since 9/11 the Bush administration has sought to categorize
> members of Al Qaeda and other jihadists as "unlawful combatants"
> rather than treat them as criminals. . . .
>
> Treating terrorists as combatants is a mistake for two reasons.
> First, it dignifies criminality by according terrorist killers
> the status of soldiers...
>
> Critics have rightly pointed out that traditional categories
> of combatant and civilian are muddled in a struggle against
> terrorists. In a traditional war, combatants and civilians are
> relatively easy to distinguish. The 9/11 hijackers, by contrast,
> dressed in ordinary clothes and hid their weapons. They acted
> not as citizens of Saudi Arabia, an ally of America, but as
> members of Al Qaeda, a shadowy transnational network. And their
> prime targets were innocent civilians.
>
> By treating such terrorists as combatants, however, we accord
> them a mark of respect and dignify their acts. And we undercut
> our own efforts against them in the process. Al Qaeda represents
> no state, nor does it carry out any of a state's responsibilities
> for the welfare of its citizens. Labeling its members as
> combatants elevates its cause and gives Al Qaeda an undeserved
> status. . . .
>
> The more appropriate designation for terrorists is not "unlawful
> combatant" but the one long used by the United States: criminal.
>
> This is so vapid, it does not even rise to the level of sophistry. The authors
> argue that the U.S. should "designate" terrorists as "criminals" rather than
> "unlawful combatants" for purely rhetorical reasons: because calling someone a
> "criminal" implies less "respect" and does not "dignify" him.
>
> The rhetorical argument can be dispensed with in a single rhetorical question:
> What do these guys think unlawful means?
>
> But their proposal has enormous substantive implications, to which they appear
> to have given only the most shallow consideration. To begin with, the
> government cannot simply "designate" anyone a criminal. Such a designation
> requires either the criminal's consent (in the form of a guilty plea) or a
> conviction at trial.
>
> The government can designate someone a criminal suspect or defendant, but this
> confers on him a panoply of legal rights. Among them are the right to be
> released if not charged or convicted, which can make it possible for even a
> guilty man to go free; and the right against self-incrimination, which would
> make it difficult if not impossible to interrogate terrorists for the purpose
> of gathering intelligence to capture other terrorists or prevent future
> attacks.
>
> The criminal justice system is fundamentally punitive, not preventive. The
> purpose of declaring someone a combatant is to keep him off the battlefield,
> thereby weakening the enemy's ability to attack in the future. The justice
> system can do nothing about a "crime" that has not yet been convicted.
>
> Even legitimate enemy combatants--i.e., uniformed soldiers--do not have the
> rights accorded criminal defendants in the justice system. The former may be
> held for the duration of armed conflict. It is perverse to suggest that
> terrorists should have more rights than legitimate soldiers.
>
> What Clark and Raustiala propose is to treat terrorists as civilians. The
> result of their proposal would be to put actual civilians, including women and
> children, in greater danger by making it harder to prevent terrorist attacks.
> The claimed benefit is that calling terrorists "criminals" would deprive them
> of respect.
>
> How many innocent lives are they willing to sacrifice for an exercise in
> name-calling? To our mind, the only sensible answer is zero.


Wow, what a concept, criminality.

Perhaps we should engender them with Habeas Corpus too.

Maybe they should be allowed Geneva Convention treatment rather than
torture, do you think possibly Americans would go for such a thing?

--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html
 
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13bpbabrt9rnr9c@corp.supernews.com...
> "Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote in message
> news:46bc881f$0$20539$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> , the only sensible answer is zero.
>> Sounds like a feminine attempt to exonerate Clinton for his repeated
>> failures to get Osama and stop Al Qaeda using the failed law enforcement
>> approach.

> EARLY 2001 - WHITE HOUSE...
> [...]


No cite = Presumed to be a LIE.
 
Patriot Games wrote:
> "Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13bpbabrt9rnr9c@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote in message
>> news:46bc881f$0$20539$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> , the only sensible answer is zero.
>>> Sounds like a feminine attempt to exonerate Clinton for his repeated
>>> failures to get Osama and stop Al Qaeda using the failed law
>>> enforcement approach.

>> EARLY 2001 - WHITE HOUSE...
>> [...]

>
> No cite = Presumed to be a LIE.


LOL
It's all properly sourced and the administration can hardly contest their
own actions - and don't dispute any of it.
What they have done is blame Clinton, Morg, Crom or anyone in order to avoid
the connection between 9/11 and their own actions.



--
John R. Carroll

www.machiningsolution.com
 
"Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote in message
news:46bf38d5$0$8960$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

> No cite = Presumed to be a LIE.


LOL - learn to read ****head. Right at the end of the paragraph.

Here - I'll do a bit of homework for you, lazy-ass:
http://www.amazon.com/Age-Sacred-Terror-Radical-Against/dp/0812969847

Meanwhile, I'm STILL waiting for you to cite which Democrats ran for office
promising to end the war in Iraq, you stupid ****.

Damn, you lying unAmerican terrorist-loving right-wing radicals sure are
some
stupid mother****ers. Thank God you and your twisted amoral sociopathic
values represent such a small minority in this country and are far, far from
the mainstream so that traitors like you can never ever again gain political
power in this country.

--
"History! Read it and weep!"
-Bokonon
_______________________________________________
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
 
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13bv2mn1uue9pfd@corp.supernews.com...
> "Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote in message
> news:46bf38d5$0$8960$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> No cite = Presumed to be a LIE.

> LOL - learn to read ****head. Right at the end of the paragraph.


Which paragraph?

Here's what you wrote, feel free to identidfy WHICH PARAGRAPH:

> EARLY 2001 - WHITE HOUSE DEPARTS FROM EFFORTS TO TRACK TERRORIST
> MONEY: The new Bush Treasury Department "disapproved of the Clinton
> Administration's approach to money laundering issues, which had been an
> important part of the drive to cut off the money flow to bin Laden."
> Specifically, the Bush Administration opposed Clinton
> Administration-backed efforts by the G-7 and the Organization for
> Economic Cooperation and Development that targeted countries with
> "loose banking regulations" being abused by terrorist financiers.
> Meanwhile, the Bush Administration provided "no funding for the new
> National Terrorist Asset Tracking Center." [Source: The Age of Sacred
> Terror, 2003]
>
> APRIL 30, 2001 - BUSH ADMINISTRATION SAYS BIN LADEN FOCUS WAS
> "MISTAKE": The Bush Administration released the government's annual
> report on terrorism, but unlike previous Administrations, it decided to
> specifically omit an "extensive mention of alleged terrorist mastermind
> Osama bin Laden. A senior State Department official told CNN the U.S.
> government made a mistake in focusing so much energy on bin Laden."
> Similarly, AP reported in 2002 that the Bush Administration's "national
> security leadership met formally nearly 100 times in the months prior
> to the Sept. 11 attacks yet terrorism was the topic during only two of
> those sessions." [Source: CNN, 4/30/01; AP, 6/29/01]
>
> The federal government was rapidly increasing its counter-terrorism
> efforts at the time President Bush took office. As the New York Times
> reported, Attorney General Janet Reno ended her tenure as "perhaps the
> strongest advocate" of counterterrorism spending. Similarly, Newsweek
> and the Washington Post reported National Security Adviser Sandy Berger
> was "totally preoccupied" with the prospect of a domestic terror
> attack, telling his replacement that they need to be "spending more
> time on this issue" than on any other. The focus changed dramatically
> when the Bush Administration took office.
>
> ADMINISTRATION SHIFTED LAW ENFORCEMENT'S FOCUS OFF OF
> COUNTER-TERRORISM: The New York Times reported that in the lead-up to
> 9/11, Attorney General John Ashcroft "said fighting terrorism was a top
> priority of his agency," yet upon entering office, "he identified more
> than a dozen other objectives for greater emphasis within the Justice
> Department before the attacks." On Aug. 9, the Administration
> distributed a strategic plan to the Justice Department highlighting its
> new goals from a list of Clinton Administration goals. The item that
> referred to intelligence and investigation of terrorists was left
> un-highlighted. [Source: NY Times, 2/28/02]
>
> ASHCROFT OVERRULED EFFORTS FOCUSED ON COUNTER-TERROR: Newsweek reported
> that "in the spring of 2001, the attorney general had an extraordinary
> confrontation with the then FBI Director Louis Freeh at an annual
> meeting of special agents." The two talked before appearing, and
> Ashcroft laid out his priorities for Freeh: "basically violent crime
> and drugs," recalls one participant. Freeh replied bluntly that those
> were not his priorities, and began to talk about terror and
> counterterrorism. "Ashcroft didn't want to hear about it," says a
> former senior law-enforcement official." [Source: Newsweek, 5/27/02]
>
> BUSH ADMINISTRATION TERMINATED PROGRAM THAT TRACKED AL QAEDA: "In the
> months before 9/11, the U.S. Justice Department curtailed a highly
> classified program called 'Catcher's Mitt' to monitor Al Qaeda suspects
> in the United States." [Source: Newsweek, 3/21/04]
>
> SO LITTLE CONCERN FOR COUNTER-TERROR THAT A WHITE HOUSE TASK FORCE
> NEVER MET: In January of 2001, the U.S. Government's bipartisan
> Commission on National Security gave the White House a report that
> warned of an attack on the homeland and urged the new Administration to
> implement its specific "recommendations to prevent acts of domestic
> terrorism. The Administration rejected the Commission's report,
> "preferring to put aside the recommendations." Instead, the
> Administration waited until May of 2001 to appoint Vice President
> Cheney to head a task force "to combat terrorist attacks on the United
> States." But according to the Washington Post, neither "Cheney's review
> nor Bush's took place." Meanwhile, Newsweek reported that when senators
> "sent a copy of draft legislation on counterterrorism and homeland
> defense to Cheney's office on July 20," they were told by Cheney's top
> aide "that it might be another six months before he would be able to
> review the material." [Source: Salon, 9/12/04; White House release,
> 5/8/01; Washington Post, 1/20/02; Newsweek, 5/27/02]
>
> WHITE HOUSE BEGAN EFFORT TO CUT COUNTER-TERRORISM PROGRAMS: The New
> York Times reported that in its final 2003 budget request, the
> Administration "called for spending increases in 68 programs, none of
> which directly involved counterterrorism...In his Sept. 10 submission
> to the budget office, Ashcroft did not endorse FBI requests for $58
> million for 149 new counterterrorism field agents, 200 intelligence
> analysts and 54 additional translators. Ashcroft proposed a $65 million
> cut for a program that gives states and localities counterterrorism
> grants for equipment, including radios and decontamination suits and
> training." By comparison, "Under Janet Reno, the department's
> counterterrorism budget increased 13.6% in the fiscal year 1999, 7.1%
> in 2000 and 22.7% in 2001." [Source: NY Times, 2/28/02]
>
> ADMINISTRATION LEFT "GAPS" IN MILITARY'S REQUEST FOR COUNTER-TERROR
> FUNDS: The Washington Post reported that in its first budget, the White
> House left "gaps" between "what military commanders said they needed to
> combat terrorists and what they got." Newsweek noted that, among other
> things, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld elected not to re-launch a
> Predator drone that had been tracking bin Laden. When the Senate Armed
> Services Committee tried to fill those gaps, "Rumsfeld said he would
> recommend a veto" on September 9. [Source: Washington Post, 1/20/02;
> Newsweek, 5/27/02; NY Times, 2/28/02]
>
> ADMINISTRATION STOPPED PREDATOR FLIGHTS TRACKING AL QAEDA IN
> AFGHANISTAN: AP reported "though Predator drones spotted Osama bin
> Laden as many as three times in late 2000, the Bush administration did
> not fly the unmanned planes over Afghanistan during its first eight
> months." Additionally, "the military successfully tested an armed
> Predator throughout the first half of 2001" but the White House "failed
> to resolve a debate over whether the CIA or Pentagon should operate the
> armed Predators" and the armed Predator never got off the ground before
> 9/11. [Source: AP, 6/25/03]
>
> WHILE CUTTING COUNTER-TERROR, THE WHITE HOUSE SENT FUNDING TO THE
> TALIBAN: At the same time the White House was trying to cut
> counter-terrorism funding, it gave "$43 million in drought aid to
> Afghanistan after the Taliban began a campaign against poppy growers."
> As the 5/29/01 edition of Newsday noted, the Taliban rulers of
> Afghanistan "are a decidedly odd choice for an outright gift of $43
> million from the Bush Administration. This is the same government
> against which the United Nation imposes sanctions, at the behest of the
> United States, for refusing to turn over the terrorist mastermind Osama
> bin Laden." [Washington Post, 9/23/01; Newsday, 5/29/01]


It seem as though you have been CAUGHT LYING.
 
"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13bv2mn1uue9pfd@corp.supernews.com...
> "Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote in message
> news:46bf38d5$0$8960$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> No cite = Presumed to be a LIE.

> LOL - learn to read ****head. Right at the end of the paragraph.
> Here - I'll do a bit of homework for you, lazy-ass:
> http://www.amazon.com/Age-Sacred-Terror-Radical-Against/dp/0812969847


That's an advertisement for a book, FOOL.

Now you're a PROVEN LIAR.

No one need waste their time with you.
 
I believe Bokonon proved himself to be a troll some time ago...not worth
reading....AAC

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:58:07 -0400, "Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote:

>"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:13bv2mn1uue9pfd@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Patriot Games" <Patriot@America.com> wrote in message
>> news:46bf38d5$0$8960$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>> No cite = Presumed to be a LIE.

>> LOL - learn to read ****head. Right at the end of the paragraph.
>> Here - I'll do a bit of homework for you, lazy-ass:
>> http://www.amazon.com/Age-Sacred-Terror-Radical-Against/dp/0812969847

>
>That's an advertisement for a book, FOOL.
>
>Now you're a PROVEN LIAR.
>
>No one need waste their time with you.
 
"AnAmericanCitizen" <NoAmnesty@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uub1c3hckguicq3j7ocpqbeepn3t4sh94u@4ax.com...
> I believe Bokonon proved himself to be a troll some time ago...not worth
> reading....AAC


Ain't that the truth....

I seem to be a magnet for 'em....

Might be those racy and provocative Subject lines....
 
Marines were on their way home from Kuwait to Hawaii when they stopped at the
Oakland Airport for a layover. But the Oakland International Airport said that
military personnel were not allowed in the airport terminal. The Marines were
forced to deplane 400 yards away from the terminal. This was not because of
security reasons as the Marines were already allowed to deplane at airports in
Germany and New York.

The airport has now apologized to the troops.

Can you believe how the San Francisco Bay area is treating our men and women
in uniform? Here's just a partial list.

Permission to dock the Battleship Iowa in San Francisco as a floating museum
to our Navy and the role of the Iowa in World War II ... DENIED.

Permission for the Navy's Blue Angels to participate in an air show over San
Francisco Bay ... OPPOSED

Permission for the U.S. Marine Corps Silent Drill Platoon to film a
recruitment commercial on California Street in San Francisco ... DENIED.

And now this debacle at the Oakland Airport?
 
"Nearly one out of every five Democrats thinks the world will be better off if
America loses the war in Iraq," according to a new Fox News poll:

The percentage of Democrats (19 percent) who believe that is
nearly four times the number of Republicans (5 percent) who
gave the same answer. Seven percent of independents said the
world would be better off if the U.S. lost the war.

Meanwhile, the Associated Press reports from Waterloo, Iowa, that "Democratic
presidential candidate Barack Obama said he doesn't wear the American flag
lapel pin because it has become a substitute for 'true patriotism' since the
Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks" (emphisis mine):

"The truth is that right after 9-11 I had a pin," Obama said.
"Shortly after 9-11, particularly because as we're talking
about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for I think true
patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of
importance to our national security.

"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest," he said in the
interview. "Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American
people what I believe WILL MAKE THIS COUNTRY GREAT, and hopefully
that will be a testament to my patriotism."

And up in Oregon, the Sandy Post reports that Julie Slavik wanted to protect
her son from exposure to the National Guard, which conducts team-building
exercises with freshmen at Sandy High School (emphasis mine):

"I started calling some parents and asked them if they knew
anything about it," said Slavick. "I talked to 12 people and
nobody knew what was going on. Some of them had been out of
class for two days, others for four days. Every parent I spoke
with thought it was a little strange."

Slavick took her complaint to school administrators and they
excused her son, Victor, from participating in the exercises...

Julie Slavick, for one, appreciates the effort that these
organizations put into helping the students, but remains
skeptical about what a group like the National Guard brings
to the classroom.

"I think it's great an outside body would want to do something
like that, but IT SEEMS A LITTLE SUBVERSIVE TO HAVE MILITARY
BONDING WITH KIDS" she said.

What do these stories have in common? Certainly nothing that we can think of.
(Whatever you do, don't estionquay their atriotismpay.)
 
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