Corruption and Democracy.

[builder]

Corruption seems to a part of every democracy, but how deeply ingrained does the corruption have to be, before the the basic tenets of democracy become a moot point?

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zj5j-gttl/s980403.htm

>>This article<< doesn't surprise me in the least. But considering the push to overthrow despotic rulers in the push for global democracy, what kind of example is the west setting for the new regimes?

Isn't regime overthrow by a corrupt democracy just furthering corruption?

 

[Phantom]

Corruption seems to a part of every democracy, but how deeply ingrained does the corruption have to be, before the the basic tenets of democracy become a moot point?

Corruption should never be allowed. Period. Yes, corruption is a given when dealing with people although it shouldn't be. Unfortunately, there are too many people around who are more interested in lining their pockets than there are who care about doing what is right regardless of the personal consequences.

Considering the push to overthrow despotic rulers in the push for global democracy, what kind of example is the west setting for the new regimes?

What kind of new regimes are you referring to? Nondemocratic regimes? Regimes independent of Western/American imperialism?

Isn't regime overthrow by a corrupt democracy just furthering corruption?

Yes it is. However, although the American government is corrupt beyond all recognition (let's face it, most governments are), I personally see it as being the lesser of two evils when compared with the Iraqi government as it was ran by Sadaam.

Another question is: What makes democracy better than other regimes?

 

[ParasiteGod]

Corruption is a biproduct of weakness. And humans seem to have been hit by the epidemic. Corruption isn't part of democracy itself, it's part of the people in it.

 

[builder]

Corruption is a biproduct of weakness.

Weakness? Or greed? Or malice? Or one-upmanship? Or simply **** for more power?

And humans seem to have been hit by the epidemic.

It's not a new epidemic, by any means. More like an ongoing feverish pursuit for personal gain. Democracy, in an individual perspective, is the freedom to pursue a goal, or goals, to the end-game of personal achievement. In that light, personal goals are a good thing, but when climbing to the top entails wiping your feet on underlings, and burning bridges, is that a cohesive and friendly path? Or a simple capitalistic bent path?

Corruption isn't part of democracy itself, it's part of the people in it.

So you're saying that the ideology is sound, but the public's grasp of the ideology is flawed?

 

[builder]

Corruption should never be allowed. Period

.
I agree. But election donations are tax deductable.

Yes, corruption is a given when dealing with people although it shouldn't be.

But seeing as how its a given, how do you equate it? How do you assimilate it?

Unfortunately, there are too many people around who are more interested in lining their pockets than there are who care about doing what is right regardless of the personal consequences.

rWhat were the hippies doing? Trying to educate you./

What kind of new regimes are you referring to? Nondemocratic regimes? Regimes independent of Western/American imperialism?

Heaven forfend>? Independant of western influence?

Yes it is. However, although the American government is corrupt beyond all recognition (let's face it, most governments are),

Sweetheart, if you value your passport, you'll scratch that comment. And then I'll scratch mine.

I personally see it as being the lesser of two evils when compared with the Iraqi government as it was ran by Sadaam.

You sound like a shill now. Leave your other post.

Another question is: What makes democracy better than other regimes?

The real question is, what is to lose by switching belief systems?

 

[Phantom]

.I agree. But election donations are tax deductable.

I didn't know that but my opinion is split now that I do know. It has the potential for corruption but it is also beneficial (just like church tithes and charitable donations are tax deductible).

What were the hippies doing? Trying to educate you.

The hippies of the 60's were sellouts and hypocrites. Where are they now? Driving their VW vans and living together in their peace and love compounds? No, they cut their hair, got married, went to college, got jobs, had kids, took out mortgages, ran up credit card debt, and joined The Man. They realized their ideals were not practical. Realism will always overcome idealism.

Heaven forbid? Independant of western influence?

Frankly (and you already know this about me), I would LOVE for America to stop being the world police. However, I also understand some of the reasons why we take on that role.

Sweetheart, if you value your passport, you'll scratch that comment. And then I'll scratch mine.

You sound like a shill now. Leave your other post.

Didn't understand either of those comments.

 

[ParasiteGod]

...Or greed? Or malice? Or one-upmanship? Or simply **** for more power?

All vices a weak man would allow himself to fall prey to.

It's not a new epidemic, by any means.

No, of course not.

More like an ongoing feverish pursuit for personal gain. Democracy, in an individual perspective, is the freedom to pursue a goal, or goals, to the end-game of personal achievement. In that light, personal goals are a good thing, but when climbing to the top entails wiping your feet on underlings, and burning bridges, is that a cohesive and friendly path? Or a simple capitalistic bent path?

A good point... I'll have to ponder this.

I think such a freedom is the downfall of anyone who has it. People are too stupid to be given such a privilege. Our goals are shallow and meaningless, and we're terribly self destructive as it is.

So you're saying that the ideology is sound, but the public's grasp of the ideology is flawed?

Yeah. See... government can be great, unless people running it screw it up, and they will. For instance, America was a cute idea and was good in the beginning, but holy **** what's happened?

[quote name='Happy Noodle Boy

 

[hugo]

Yeah. See... government can be great, unless people running it screw it up, and they will. For instance, America was a cute idea and was good in the beginning, but holy **** what's happened?

Fabian socialism/ Keynesianism

The only sure way to reduce corruption is to reduce the size of government.

 

[builder]

I didn't know that but my opinion is split now that I do know.

Why? Because corruption is sanctioned?

It has the potential for corruption but it is also beneficial (just like church tithes and charitable donations are tax deductible).

Wake up and smell the roses.

The hippies of the 60's were sellouts and hypocrites.

That's a crass generalisation. Some of the best music of that era came from the hippy class. They got rich, did lots of psychadelic drugs, and drifted away.

Where are they now?

In rehab, or writing memoirs.Why do you ask?

Driving their VW vans and living together in their peace and love compounds?

Typecasting by Phantom. Call 3342 674 981

No, they cut their hair, got married, went to college, got jobs, had kids, took out mortgages, ran up credit card debt, and joined The Man. They realized their ideals were not practical. Realism will always overcome idealism.

Glad you got that off your chest.

Frankly (and you already know this about me), I would LOVE for America to stop being the world police.

It's not an option. Too many fights already picked. No backing down now.

However, I also understand some of the reasons why we take on that role.

LIke oil?

Didn't understand either of those comments.

Me neither. I'll run them by my speech writer, and say "what the ****"?

 

[builder]

All vices a weak man would allow himself to fall prey to.

Weak men, maybe. Real men, never.

No, of course not.

It's out there, no doubt.

A good point... I'll have to ponder this.

Yeah, it's worth more than a cursory thought.

I think such a freedom is the downfall of anyone who has it.

That's defeatist in the largesse extreme.

People are too stupid to be given such a privilege.

Crass generalisation. You are too stupid to realise people can be way more insightful and decisive than yourself.

Our goals are shallow and meaningless, and we're terribly self destructive as it is.

Correction. Your goals might be shallow, and your nature might be innately self destructive.

Yeah. See... government can be great, unless people running it screw it up, and they will. For instance, America was a cute idea and was good in the beginning, but holy **** what's happened?

A silly source, yes, but expresses my thoughts so well.

 

[hugo]

A tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. Democracy only works when the citizens have enough common interests to overwhelm their differences and/or when individual rights are respected and government is highly decentralized.

 

[Phantom]

Why? Because corruption is sanctioned?

No, because it respects/protects two of the most important things in life: *** and country. Children are also tax deductible. Yes, it has some room for corruption but EVERYTHING does. Corruption is everywhere. But just because something has the potential to be misused, should the rights of those who don't take advantage of the system be penalized?

That's a crass generalisation. Some of the best music of that era came from the hippy class. They got rich, did lots of psychadelic drugs, and drifted away.

Emphasis on the words, of that era. The hippies were everywhere in the 60's. Everywhere. Even in small town middle America. Although there are some aging hippies around today, where are the millions of hippes that used to be everywhere? My previous comment applies. They sold out and assimilated.

Typecasting by Phantom. Call 3342 674 981

I don't know why so many people get their panties in a wad when we generalize. There ARE some truths in stereotypes. Although there is always an exception to every rule, generalizations do exist for a reason.

LIke oil?

I was thinking more along the lines of ruthless, selfish dictators who drain the masses for their own personal benefit.

 

[builder]

A tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. Democracy only works when the citizens have enough common interests to overwhelm their differences and/or when individual rights are respected and government is highly decentralized.

That's a shitload of provisos you got there mister.

 

[builder]

No, because it respects/protects two of the most important things in life: *** and country. Children are also tax deductible.

My kids covered their school expenses working night shift in the coal mine.

Yes, it has some room for corruption but EVERYTHING does. Corruption is everywhere.

Money is the root of all evil. It also buys a good root when you need one.

But just because something has the potential to be misused, should the rights of those who don't take advantage of the system be penalized?

Most definately not. I agree with that one all the way.

Emphasis on the words, of that era. The hippies were everywhere in the 60's. Everywhere. Even in small town middle America.

They're still there. They just wear different clothes now.

Although there are some aging hippies around today, where are the millions of hippes that used to be everywhere?

Running companies, and laundering drug money.

My previous comment applies. They sold out and assimilated.

Capitalism is a drug like no other.

I don't know why so many people get their panties in a wad when we generalize.

Generalisation is abject laziness in motion. It's not about getting panties in a wad, it's about raising awareness levels.

There ARE some truths in stereotypes. Although there is always an exception to every rule, generalizations do exist for a reason.

People are people. All Individuals. Like you and me. Chalk and cheese.

I was thinking more along the lines of ruthless, selfish dictators who drain the masses for their own personal benefit.

Sounds like **** Cheney to me.