Get Your Babe Jesus Off My Govt's Land, the Offended Protest (and Sue)

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Get Your Babe Jesus Off My Govt's Land, the Offended Protest (and Sue)

Via NY Transfer News Collective All the News that Doesn't Fit

sent by Freedom From Religion Foundation - Dec 13, 2007

[see links to all the articles (where you can see pictures) here:

http://ffrf.org/media/ Don't miss the idiot obnoxious hyper-Catholic

Fradette, (4th story below), an ignoramus who thinks atheism is a

"faith." -NY Transfer]

FFRF Wisconsin Creche Complaints in the News

Below, some of the widespread and lively news coverage of complaints

over public-hosted nativity scenes made by the Freedom From Religion

Foundation on behalf of members of the public in Wisconsin.

When FFRF protested a nativity scene in a public park in Pestigo, Wis.

(home of that famous fire), a Green Bay city council president (and

publicity hound) this week placed a nativity scene over the Green Bay

city hall entrance "so now the Freedom From Religion Foundation can

pick on somebody a little larger than Pestigo." The Foundation is also

protesting a nativity scene in Baraboo, Wis. None of the worship

displays conforms to U.S. Supreme Court precedent.

Coverage is listed below. Many of the news links include color photos

of the offending worship scenes, but text of the news articles follows

in order at the very end of this message. Note that the last article in

this list is a victory out of Michigan.

Green Bay leader pays for city nativity

Associated Press

Wisconsin State Journal

Dec. 13, 2007

Activist: "Immediately remove" City Hall nativity scene

Green Bay Press Gazette

By Paul Srubas

Dec. 12, 2007

Nativity Display is a fight over Rights

WBAY Ch 2 ABC TV

Green Bay, Wis.

Dec. 12, 2007

Fradette: I want a nativity scene at City Hall

Green Bay Press Gazette

By Paul Srubas

Dec. 11, 2007

Nativity scene draws local complaint

Baraboo News Republic

By Tim Damos

Dec. 12, 2007

Pestigo Mayor Pays for Nativity Display

WBAY Ch 2 ABC TV

Green Bay, Wis.

Dec. 12, 2007

Group objects to nativity scene in Pestigo park

WKBT.com Ch. 8, CBS

La Crosse, Wis.

Dec. 8, 2007

Nativity scene in pulic park draws threat of lawsuit

Green Bay Press Gazette

By Karen Lincoln Michel

Dec. 8, 2007

Nativity rejected in Manistique

Daily Press

By Robb Lucas

Nov. 27, 2007

Green Bay leader pays for city nativity

Associated Press

December 13, 2007

GREEN BAY -- The president of the Green Bay City Council paid for a

nativity scene to be put up at City Hall after learning of an atheist

group 's protest of one in Peshtigo.

Council President Chad Fradette told a city committee he believes the

U.S. Constitution upholds citizens ' right to display symbols of their

religious beliefs on publicly owned property as long as they are not

paid for with tax money and other faiths aren 't excluded.

The committee approved the nativity scene 4-1 Tuesday night.

"So now the Freedom From Religion Foundation can pick on somebody a

little larger than Peshtigo, " Fradette told the committee.

The Madison-based foundation, the nation 's largest group of atheists

and agnostics, objected last week to a nativity display in a Peshtigo

city park, saying it was illegal to erect it on public property and use

tax money to light it. Peshtigo is about 40 miles northeast of Green

Bay.

On Wednesday, the group sent a letter to Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt

objecting to the display in Green Bay as "inherently religious " and a

violation of the separation of church and state.

"Displaying a creche on the city hall building conveys the message that

the City Council endorses Christianity, " wrote Annie Laurie Gaylor,

co-president of the foundation.

Schmitt did not object to the display at the committee 's Tuesday

meeting but urged it to draft rules on what could be included.

"It could get out of hand, " he said.

Fradette had wanted to extend an invitation to all religions to put up

displays, but committee members agreed a policy was needed to prevent

people from testing the boundaries of taste. Fradette asked Schmitt for

permission to put up his display while the council worked out those

details.

"If you put it up, it 's your risk, " Schmitt said. "You may lose this

thing, but if you want to put it up, I 'm not going to not allow you to

put the ladder up. "

Fradette, council Vice President Chris Wery and two maintenance workers

then spent about an hour installing a display that includes statues of

Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Peshtigo Mayor Thomas Strouf offered to pay the lighting bill for his

city 's display after the foundation objected to it. The local Chamber

of Commerce owns and erected the display, he said, although it is in a

public park.

Activist: 'Immediately remove' City Hall nativity scene

By Paul Srubas

psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com - December 12, 2007

A Madison-based group that works to protect the separation of church

and state wants Green Bay to remove the nativity scene installed

outside City Hall.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation today made the request in a letter

to Mayor Jim Schmitt. It comes a day after the City Council's Advisory

Committee voted to allow statues of Joseph, Mary and the baby Jesus to

be placed on a City Hall overhang.

"Displaying a crche on the city hall building conveys the message that

the City Council endorses Christianity, in violation of the

constitutional principle of separation of church and state," Annie

Laurie Gaylor, the foundation's co-president, wrote in the letter.

"We ask the city to immediately remove the offending symbol from the

capitol grounds and alleviate any constitutional violations," Gaylor

wrote.

City Council President Chad Fradette got the idea to put up the

nativity scene after the foundation said it would consider suing the

city of Peshtigo over a similar nativity scene in a city park.

"So now the Freedom From Religion Foundation can pick on somebody a

little larger than Peshtigo," he said Tuesday.

Fradette paid for the statues and told the committee he thinks the U.S.

Constitution allows citizens to display symbols of their religious

beliefs on publicly owned property as long as it is not publicly funded

and that property also is made available for displays of other

religions.

Correction

Green Bay Alderman Tom Weber voted yes to allow a nativity scene to be

installed on a City Hall overhang. The incorrect name was listed in

Wednesday's newspaper.

Nativity Display is a Fight Over Rights

Updated: Dec 12, 2007 05:58 PM

By Emily Matesic

A Christian Nativity scene now sits atop an entrance at Green Bay's

City Hall after members of the city's Advisory Committee gave their

initial approval.

Council President Chad Fradette and city alder Christopher Wery, along

with two city maintenance workers and the mayor, helped install the

statutes of Mary, Joseph, and Baby Joseph with a crib and bale of hay

on the entrance overhang late Tuesday night.

Wednesday, Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Madison-based group

whose purpose is to protect the principle of separation of church and

state, asked the mayor to take the display down.

Fradette said he got the idea to put the Nativity on City Hall after

the Freedom From Religion Foundation asked the mayor of Peshtigo to

remove a Nativity scene from a city park.

"When a friend of mine is attacked or threatened, do you stand by and

watch it happen or do you jump into the fight? Well, I'm jumping in.

I'm taking the fight back to them. Tell them to take their Madison

values back to Madison where they belong," Fradette said.

Freedom From Religion officials say it's not "Madison values" driving

them to request the removal of the Nativity display from Peshtigo and

now from Green Bay -- it's the Constitution of the United States of

America.

"The Supreme Court rulings are mushy but they have specifically said

you cannot put a manger scene at the seat of city government -- on the

building itself, at the entrance of the building, inside the building.

That's a no-no. The roof of the building qualifies," Annie Laurie

Gaylor of the Freedom From Religion Foundation said.

She said not only is the installation of the Nativity at City Hall

wrong, so is Fradette's reasoning.

"What this man did was spiteful and perverse. There wasn't a complaint

or problem in Green Bay. We weren't in Green Bay. Now we are and now we

will act."

Mayor Jim Schmitt said the city is within the law with the placement of

the Nativity scene.

"It's my understanding if we designate an area it's got to be available

to any organized religion that wants to put their symbolism," Mayor

Schmitt said.

While he helped install the Nativity display, the mayor doesn't think

the city should be fighting battles for other communities. But he is

prepared to fight any potential lawsuits over the display, and he'll

entertain other requests from citizens who want to display religious

symbols at City Hall.

"As busy as things are, I wouldn't have done this to pick a fight, but

we're in it. I'm going to defend the city on it and defend the rights

of the people of this community," the mayor said.

Fradette indicated any taxpayer cost for the display is minimal. "We

used a ladder, we used some water, a little bit of electricity -- I'll

pay for it, I don't care -- and a little bit of wiring."

Fradette: I want a nativity scene at City Hall

By Paul Srubas

psrubas@greenbaypressgazette.com December 11, 2007

City Council President Chad Fradette wants to put up a nativity scene

at Green Bay's City Hall.

He said he got the idea after getting angry over news reports that the

Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation is considering suing the

city of Peshtigo over a nativity scene in a city park.

Fradette, the chairman of the City Council's Advisory Committee, put

the issue on the committee's agenda for tonight. The group meets at

6:30 p.m., or immediately following the Finance Committee meeting, in

Room 604 of City Hall.

"If I get approval, I'm going to put them up tonight," he said. "I

bought it yesterday"

Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom From Religion

Foundation, dismissed Fradette's promise, saying, "That's hardly in the

Christmas spirit. He just wants to violate the separation of church and

state because we protested another municipality's violation."

Fradette wants the statues of Mary, Joseph and the baby Jesus installed

on the overhang on City Hall's northwest corner entrance. He said he

paid for the scene, will pay for installation and will pay for

illuminating the scene.

"I read about the Peshtigo thing, got upset over that, talked to my

wife, we did a little praying," Fradette said. "Then I went to a

Catholic men's club meeting Saturday morning, and the message there was

be true to your faith. I made the decision Monday morning."

He said the city attorney's office told him it was unconstitutional,

but several other staff members disagreed.

"I said I'd just take it to Advisory... I'll follow what Advisory says,"

Fradette said. "If it says yes, I'll put it up, if no, I'll fight it at

council."

Fradette said his reading of the U.S. Constitution indicates that the

government can't prohibit free exercise of religion. As long as city

property is open to similar displays by other faiths, there should be

no problem installing a Christian display at City Hall, Fradette said,

adding that he welcomed people of all faiths to use public spaces

similarly.

"The public domain is something owned by all faiths -- agnostics,

Christians, atheists, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans," Fradette said. "If

everybody is welcome, then we should be fine, because then we're not

sponsoring religion."

Not so, Gaylor says.

"It doesn't matter if (the display) is owned privately," she said. "The

Supreme Court has ruled on this.... Nativity scenes cannot be put up on

public property.

"He should put it on the roof of his own house. Nativity scenes can go

in most places in Green Bay. We can be surrounded by nativity scenes.

They just can't go on City Hall.

"We have complete religious liberty, but not the liberty to have

government promote our religion."

Fradette said he talked about the issue on a radio program this week

and had several people volunteer to help him with the expenses.

"This group Freedom From Religion is one of the groups tearing our

country apart piece by piece," Fradette said. "It's time to say 'Hey,

take your Madison values back to Madison,' and one day we should rise

up and say, "Hey, take them out of the state.'"

Asked whether the foundation was likely to sue, Gaylor said "We have to

see what happens. We could talk about Supreme Court decisions until

we're blue in the face, but there's always some rogue politicians that

just don't care."

Nativity scene draws complaint

By Tim Damos

A nativity scene will remain on the lawn of the Sauk County Courthouse

in Baraboo, despite the objection of one citizen who feels the

religious display violates the First Amendment.

"Tell him to take us to court to get it out of there," said Virgil

Hartje, chairman of the Sauk County Property and Insurance Committee.

"As far as I'm concerned, they can leave it there."

Hartje had received an e-mail from Baraboo resident David Dill, who

objected to the depiction of the birth of Jesus that sits on the

northwest corner of the courthouse square in downtown Baraboo.

"I take any such display to violate the separation of church and state,

a concept which I hold dear," Dill wrote in a Dec. 2 e-mail.

He asked the committee responsible for overseeing management of county

grounds to tell a local business group, Downtown Baraboo, Inc., that

religious displays are not welcome on public property.

But the five-person committee rejected Dill's request and voted

unanimously to keep the nativity scene.

Sauk County's facilities manager Tim Stieve said anyone can request use

of the courthouse lawn, and the county receives eight to 10 requests a

year.

Downtown Baraboo, Inc., asked for permission to put up Christmas

decorations around the courthouse as part of a six-week holiday

campaign to draw shoppers downtown.

Cindy Doescher, promoter for Downtown Baraboo, Inc., said because the

organization doesn't have a nativity scene of its own, they asked a

local church to erect the scene on their behalf.

"This is very ironic, because much of Sauk County was settled by

non-religious people," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the

Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc.

Gaylor and her husband were married at Freethinkers' Hall in Sauk City,

a historical site originally used by a congregation of German

immigrants who settled in Sauk County looking for religious and

political freedom.

Gaylor said local governments must make some attempt to include

non-religous decorations if they want to also display a religious

decoration, such as a nativity scene. Otherwise, she said, the courts

would likely view a nativity scene as a government endorsement of

Christian faith.

Gaylor didn't think the Christmas lights on light poles around the

square demonstrate enough variety.

"Why would (the church) do that?" she said. "Why don't they put it on

their own lawn? Not everyone celebrates Christmas."

Gaylor said she has no problem with religious displays on private

property.

But Pastor Wendy Boden of First Presbyterian Church in Baraboo, which

owns and erects the courthouse nativity scene, said she'd like to see

other faiths to join in.

People should be less sensitive and learn to accept one another, she

said.

"Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion, and I would

welcome people displaying sincere faith attempts," she said. "We

weren't trying to force anybody."

Boden said the church is merely helping a local business group create a

festive atmosphere during the holiday season.

Growing up in New York, she said, she used to see Jewish decorations

during Hanukkah and never had a problem with it.

"You know, it's part of our culture and we should accept our culture,"

she said. "And I think it's a shame we have to limit ourselves to

commercial Christmas displays."

Doescher, of Downtown Baraboo, Inc., said the nativity scene is

intended to give the downtown area a nostalgic feel during the holidays.

"I think it's part of the whole Christmas season look," she said. "Our

country was founded on Christian values."

But Gaylor said she thinks the display should go, and said county

officials likely are violating the First Amendment by giving

preferential treatment to one religion.

"If some Muslims tried to put up a public display on their property,

they'd get it pretty quickly then," she said.

Peshtigo Mayor Pays for Nativity Display

Updated: Dec 12, 2007 06:23 PM

By Emily Matesic

The mayor of Peshtigo is picking up the tab for a Nativity display in

his city after a Madison group told him he's violating the First

Amendment.

The Nativity scene sponsored by the Chamber of Commerce has appeared in

Triangle Park for a number of years around the holidays. For the first

time, this year the mayor of Peshtigo received a letter explaining he

was violating constitutional law by allowing the Christian display in a

public park.

The letter from the Madison-based Freedom from Religion Foundation

said, "It is unlawful for the City of Peshtigo, a secular government,

to maintain, erect or host a display that consists solely of a Nativity

scene thus singling out, showing preference for and endorsing one

religion, and commemorating its most holy day. Compounding this is the

tax money spent in illuminating this religious scene on public

property."

Mayor Tom Strouf replied to the claim in a letter of his own. He wrote,

"It did not occur to me that the manger scene could offend someone that

did not worship... I was thinking about how it would be possible for me

to give a Christmas present to every taxpayer in the city.... What

better way can I give back to the taxpayers than paying for the

electrical bill myself?"

It's a solution Peshtigo residents seem happy with.

"If he wants to, that's fine. It might stop some of the controversy. If

somebody wants to make problems over things like that, I don't quite

understand it," Rosemary Sparks said.

What people in Peshtigo do understand is that around the holidays,

businesses decorate Triangle Park and it's not controversial.

"It's been there since I was a little child. Every place I went as a

child there were Nativity scenes. I don't see why it should change

now," Judy Luedtke expressed.

Group objects to nativity scene in Peshtigo park

Associated Press - December 8, 2007 12:35 PM ET

PESHTIGO, Wis. (AP) - A co-president of the national Freedom From

Religion Foundation in Madison is objecting to a nativity scene in a

Peshtigo city park.

Dan Barker says the display shows that local government's lack of

regard for the separation of church and state.

He sent a letter to the mayor on the matter.

Barker says the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that it is "impermissible

to place a nativity scene as the sole focus of a display on government

property or even in concert with a menorah."

Peshtigo Mayor Thomas Strouf says the letter is prompting him to offer

to pay the city's electric bill to illuminate the scene.

As he put it: "I believe God works in mysterious ways, and from reading

your letter it confirms my belief."

Barker says the mayor's action fails to address whether the display

meets constitutional muster as defined by the nation's high court.

But Strouf says the nativity scene is owned and was erected by the

local Chamber of Commerce. He says the park is open to all citizens and

businesses to display holiday decorations.

Nativity scene in public park draws threat of lawsuit

Peshtigo mayor offers to pay for display's electricity

By Karen Lincoln Michel

Press-Gazette Madison bureau kmichel@greenbaypressgazette.com

December 8, 2007

Dan Barker drove his Honda Accord wagon through downtown Peshtigo

recently and did a double take when he saw a nativity scene prominently

displayed in a city park.

Barker, co-president of the national Freedom From Religion Foundation

in Madison, said the display shows the local government's lack of

regard for the separation of church and state.

He sent a complaint letter to the mayor, alerting him to the

constitutional illegality of maintaining and lighting the display.

Peshtigo Mayor Thomas Strouf said Barker and his group, representing

atheists and agnostics, gave him a bright idea for a Christmas gift:

Pay the city's electric bill to illuminate the manger scene.

"I believe God works in mysterious ways, and from reading your letter

it confirms my belief," Strouf wrote in his response dated Dec. 6.

"What better way can I give back to the taxpayers than paying for the

electrical bill myself?"

While Barker called Strouf's response "the worst possible thing he

could have said or done," he added that the mayor's action fails to

address whether the display meets constitutional muster as defined in

two Supreme Court rulings.

The high court has ruled that it is "impermissible to place a nativity

scene as the sole focus of a display on government property or even in

concert with a menorah," Barker said.

Placing the nativity scene as a "centerpiece" in the park shows that

local government leaders are promoting religion, he said.

"If the city loses the lawsuit, would the mayor pay the legal fees out

of his own salary as well?" Barker asked.

Strouf said the nativity scene is owned and was erected by the local

Chamber of Commerce. He said the park is open to all citizens and

businesses to display holiday decorations.

The fact that holiday decorating is open to everyone lets the city "off

the hook," said Donald Downs, a constitutional law expert and a

professor of political science, law, journalism and mass communication

at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Case law allows for religious

symbols to be displayed so long as other kinds of secular symbols are

permitted as well, he said.

"I think that by, in effect, making it a public forum, and the city

itself is not putting the display up, I don't see a constitutional

problem here," said Downs.

But Barker's foundation will consider a potential lawsuit.

Meanwhile, the plastic figures of Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus and the wise

men will remain lit at night.

Nativity rejected in Manistique

The Daily Press - Published: Tuesday, November 27, 2007

By Robb Lucas - rlucas@dailypress.net

MANISTIQUE--The Manistique City Council Monday narrowly rejected a

request to place a nativity scene at the city's Triangle Park.

The request was made by Rev. Steve Jones of the Manistique Pentecostal

Church of God and Rev. Don Bedwell of the First United Methodist

Church. Bedwell is president of the Manistique Ministerial Association.

The issue before the council, as described in a legal opinion written

by City Attorney John Filoramo, was whether or not a private person may

display a nativity scene on city property.

"The issue raises questions," Filoramo wrote in his opinion, because

the federal Constitution "prohibits the government, including cities,

from establishing a state religion."

In addition to Filoramo's legal brief, council members also had an

opinion written by Adam Gandolfi of Municipal Underwriters of Michigan,

the insurance carrier for the city of Manistique.

"To allow a nativity scene on city property could be opening a can of

worms," Gandolfi advised in a letter to City Manager Sheila Aldrich.

According to Gandolfi, groups such as the Freedom From Religion

Foundation (FFRF) specialize in suing municipalities over "possible

constitutional infringement."

The FFRF is now suing the city of Menominee over a nativity scene, he

said.

Gandolfi said in a lawsuit involving a violation of the separation of

church and state, the city's insurance might not provide coverage.

However, Councilman Jack Hoag placed a motion on the table to approve

the nativity scene request, with the provision the display be

accompanied by a professionally prepared sign with the sponsor's name.

Councilman Dan Evonich suggested amending Hoag's motion with further

provisions governing the size of the display and the length of time it

could remain in the park, such as 30 days.

Council member Chris Rantanen expressed concern that if Hoag's motion

passed the city might be obligated to honor all such requests.

"If we do this do are we opening the door for anybody or any

organization?" he asked.

Filoramo agreed with Rantanen. "We might have to open the park to

anybody. The way this motion is worded invites a lawsuit."

Following the discussion, the motion was defeated by a 3-2 vote, with

yes votes from council members Hoag and Evonich. Voting no were

Rantanen, Mayor David Peterson and Jan Jeffcott.

"I wish we'd had more time to really look at this," Peterson said.

Freedom From Religion Foundation

PO Box 750 Madison, WI 53701 (608) 256-8900

© Freedom From Religion Foundation.

This E-News is courtesy of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, PO Box

750, Madison WI 53701. The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a

national association of freethinkers (atheists and agnostics) working

to keep church and state separate since 1978. For more information, go

to http://www.ffrf.org.

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