Hillary's Hawks: How Obama's and Clinton's Advisors Mirror Their Stands on the War

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Gandalf Grey

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Hillary's Hawks: How Obama's and Clinton's Advisors Mirror Their Stands on
the War

By Paul Rogat Loeb

Created Feb 11 2008 - 7:56am


Introducing a Steven Zunes piece

In their focus on the electoral horse-race, the media have ignored a key
difference between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton -- the positions of
their foreign policy advisors on the Iraq war. As political scientist
Stephen Zunes points out in Foreign Policy in Focus [1], Clinton's key
advisors overwhelmingly supported it, while Obama's opposed it. The
differences in their positions on whether to go to war mirror those of the
two candidates. They also give a sense of how Clinton and Obama are likely
to deal with the immensely difficult foreign policy challenges they'll face
if elected, including dealing with Iraq.

From Zunes's revised version of his article [2]:

The president makes the decisions, but who advises the president? We know
Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Richard Perle insisted to Bush that
American forces would be treated as liberators if we went into Iraq. McCain
has surrounded himself with people likely to encourage him to follow a
similar disastrous path if he becomes president. But what about Obama and
Clinton?

A major difference stands out among those they are likely to appoint to
key posts in national defense, intelligence, and foreign affairs: Almost
everyone in Senator Obama's foreign policy team opposed the U.S. invasion.
By contrast, most of Senator Clinton's foreign policy team, which largely
comprises veterans of her husband's administration, strongly supported
George W. Bush's call for a U.S. invasion of Iraq.

It should come as no surprise that during the run-up to the Iraq invasion,
Obama spoke at a Chicago anti-war rally [3] while Clinton went as far as
falsely claiming [4] that Iraq was actively supporting al-Qaeda. And during
the recent State of the Union address, when Bush proclaimed that the Iraqi
surge was working, Clinton stood and cheered while Obama remained seated and
silent.

Clinton's advisors are similarly confident in the ability of the United
States to impose its will through force. This is reflected to this day in
the strong support for President Bush's troop surge among such Clinton
advisors (and original invasion advocates) as Jack Keane, Kenneth Pollack
and Michael O'Hanlon.

Clinton's top foreign policy advisor -- and her likely pick for Secretary
of State -- Richard Holbrooke, insisted that [5] Iraq remained "a clear and
present danger at all times." He rejected the broad international legal
consensus against such offensive wars and insisted European governments and
anti-war demonstrators who opposed a U.S. invasion of Iraq "undoubtedly
encouraged" Saddam Hussein.

Clinton advisor Sandy Berger, who served as her husband's national
security advisor, insisted that [6] "even a contained Saddam" was "harmful
to stability and to positive change in the region" and insisted on the
necessity of "regime change." Other top Clinton advisors -- such as former
Clinton Secretary of State Madeleine Albright -- confidently predicted that
American military power could easily suppress any opposition to a U.S.
takeover of Iraq.

By contrast, during the lead-up to the war, Obama's advisors recognized as
highly suspect the Bush administration's claims regarding Iraq's "weapons of
mass destruction" and offensive delivery systems capable of threatening U.S.
national security.

Now advising Obama, former Carter National Security Advisor Zbigniew
Brzezinski, for example, argued that public support for war [7] "should not
be generated by fear-mongering or demagogy." Brzezinski seems to have
learned from mistakes like arming the Mujahideen. He warned that invading a
country that was no threat to the United States would threaten America's
global leadership because most of the international community would see it
as an illegitimate act of aggression.

Another key Obama advisor, the Carnegie Endowment's Joseph Cirincione,
argued that the goal [8] of containing the potential threat from Iraq had
been achieved as a result of sanctions, the return of inspectors, and a
multinational force stationed in the region serving as a deterrent.
Meanwhile, other future Obama advisors -- such as Susan Rice, Larry Korb,
Samantha Power, and Richard Clarke -- raised concerns about the human and
material costs of invading and occupying a large Middle Eastern country and
the risks of American forces becoming embroiled in post-invasion chaos and a
lengthy counter-insurgency war.

These differences in the key circles of foreign policy specialists
surrounding these two candidates are consistent with their diametrically
opposing views in the lead-up to the war, with Clinton voting to let
President Bush invade that oil-rich country at the time and circumstances of
his choosing, while Obama was speaking out to oppose a U.S. invasion.

Hillary Clinton has a few advisors who did oppose the war, like Wesley
Clark, but taken together, the kinds of key people she's surrounded herself
with supports the likelihood that her administration, like Bush's, would be
more likely to embrace exaggerated [9] and alarmist reports regarding
potential national security threats, to ignore international law [10] and
the advice of allies, and to launch offensive wars.

By contrast, as The Nation magazine noted [11], a Barack Obama
administration would be more likely to examine the actual evidence [12] of
potential threats before reacting, to work more closely with America's
allies to maintain peace and security, to respect the country's
international legal obligations, and to use military force only as a last
resort.

In terms of Iran, for instance, Cirincione has downplayed the supposed
threat, while Clinton advisor Holbrooke insists that [13] "the Iranians are
an enormous threat to the United States," the country is "the most pressing
problem nation," and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is like Hitler.
This is consistent with Clinton's vote for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment [14]
that opened the door to a potential Bush attack on Iran, and with Obama's
opposition to it.

Given the problems exemplified by the tragic legacy of the current
administration, primary voters should recognize that Obama's promise of
change is the most prudent course in these dangerous times.

Stephen Zunes is a professor of Politics and International Studies at the
University of San Francisco.

_______



--
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of
political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107

"A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
suffering deeply in spirit,
and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at
stake."
-Thomas Jefferson
 
Obama, like Kerry, is a media pump 'n dump.

The media pump the weakest Democrat until the nomination and then they
will dump him and President McCain will keep the troops in Iraq for
the next 8 years.

And Democrats will be wondering why we lost the general election in
'08 all the way to 2016.

Clinton is a practical person and will pull most of the troops out in
a year.

The real issue in the primaries is Clintin v McCain not Obama v
McCain.

In politics you sometimes need to be smarter than a plate of noodles.


Bret Cahill
 
Bret Cahill wrote:
> Obama, like Kerry, is a media pump 'n dump.
>
> The media pump the weakest Democrat until the nomination and then they
> will dump him and President McCain will keep the troops in Iraq for
> the next 8 years.
>
> And Democrats will be wondering why we lost the general election in
> '08 all the way to 2016.
>
> Clinton is a practical person and will pull most of the troops out in
> a year.
>
> The real issue in the primaries is Clintin v McCain not Obama v
> McCain.
>
> In politics you sometimes need to be smarter than a plate of noodles.
>
>
> Bret Cahill
>
>

Wrongo. Obama is stronger candidate against McCain because he will pull
independent voters. The polls have been showing that for a long time.
Hillary's position on the war is more suspect than Obama's. She voted
for military force against Iraq, Obama didn't.

--
McCain on the Iraq War
"Make it a hundred" years in Iraq and "that would be fine with me."
[Derry, New Hampshire Town Hall meeting, 1/3/08]
"Only the most deluded of us could doubt the necessity of this war."
McCain on how long troops may remain in Iraq:
 
"Middle Class Warrior" <middle_class_warrior1@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:phlsj.6$%g.5@trnddc08...
> Bret Cahill wrote:
>> Obama, like Kerry, is a media pump 'n dump.
>>
>> The media pump the weakest Democrat until the nomination and then they
>> will dump him and President McCain will keep the troops in Iraq for
>> the next 8 years.
>>
>> And Democrats will be wondering why we lost the general election in
>> '08 all the way to 2016.
>>
>> Clinton is a practical person and will pull most of the troops out in
>> a year.
>>
>> The real issue in the primaries is Clintin v McCain not Obama v
>> McCain.
>>
>> In politics you sometimes need to be smarter than a plate of noodles.
>>
>>
>> Bret Cahill
>>
>>

> Wrongo. Obama is stronger candidate against McCain because he will pull
> independent voters. The polls have been showing that for a long time.
> Hillary's position on the war is more suspect than Obama's. She voted for
> military force against Iraq, Obama didn't.


Obama wasn't there to vote.
 
"If" this country decides that the only time we should use our military in
foriegn countries are when their is a clear danger, then we are also saying
we should not huse our military for any humanitarian reasons.... I would
also add, there is not simple way to know when there is a clear danger,
simply because that is "assuming" you have enough information to know that
their is a clear danger....

"Gandalf Grey" <valinor20@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:47b1d6b9$0$14083$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> Hillary's Hawks: How Obama's and Clinton's Advisors Mirror Their Stands on
> the War
>
> By Paul Rogat Loeb
>
> Created Feb 11 2008 - 7:56am
>
>
> Introducing a Steven Zunes piece
>
> In their focus on the electoral horse-race, the media have ignored a key
> difference between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton -- the positions of
> their foreign policy advisors on the Iraq war. As political scientist
> Stephen Zunes points out in Foreign Policy in Focus [1], Clinton's key
> advisors overwhelmingly supported it, while Obama's opposed it. The
> differences in their positions on whether to go to war mirror those of the
> two candidates. They also give a sense of how Clinton and Obama are likely
> to deal with the immensely difficult foreign policy challenges they'll
> face
> if elected, including dealing with Iraq.
>
> From Zunes's revised version of his article [2]:
>
> The president makes the decisions, but who advises the president? We know
> Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Richard Perle insisted to Bush that
> American forces would be treated as liberators if we went into Iraq.
> McCain
> has surrounded himself with people likely to encourage him to follow a
> similar disastrous path if he becomes president. But what about Obama and
> Clinton?
>
> A major difference stands out among those they are likely to appoint to
> key posts in national defense, intelligence, and foreign affairs: Almost
> everyone in Senator Obama's foreign policy team opposed the U.S. invasion.
> By contrast, most of Senator Clinton's foreign policy team, which largely
> comprises veterans of her husband's administration, strongly supported
> George W. Bush's call for a U.S. invasion of Iraq.
>
> It should come as no surprise that during the run-up to the Iraq
> invasion,
> Obama spoke at a Chicago anti-war rally [3] while Clinton went as far as
> falsely claiming [4] that Iraq was actively supporting al-Qaeda. And
> during
> the recent State of the Union address, when Bush proclaimed that the Iraqi
> surge was working, Clinton stood and cheered while Obama remained seated
> and
> silent.
>
> Clinton's advisors are similarly confident in the ability of the United
> States to impose its will through force. This is reflected to this day in
> the strong support for President Bush's troop surge among such Clinton
> advisors (and original invasion advocates) as Jack Keane, Kenneth Pollack
> and Michael O'Hanlon.
>
> Clinton's top foreign policy advisor -- and her likely pick for Secretary
> of State -- Richard Holbrooke, insisted that [5] Iraq remained "a clear
> and
> present danger at all times." He rejected the broad international legal
> consensus against such offensive wars and insisted European governments
> and
> anti-war demonstrators who opposed a U.S. invasion of Iraq "undoubtedly
> encouraged" Saddam Hussein.
>
> Clinton advisor Sandy Berger, who served as her husband's national
> security advisor, insisted that [6] "even a contained Saddam" was "harmful
> to stability and to positive change in the region" and insisted on the
> necessity of "regime change." Other top Clinton advisors -- such as former
> Clinton Secretary of State Madeleine Albright -- confidently predicted
> that
> American military power could easily suppress any opposition to a U.S.
> takeover of Iraq.
>
> By contrast, during the lead-up to the war, Obama's advisors recognized
> as
> highly suspect the Bush administration's claims regarding Iraq's "weapons
> of
> mass destruction" and offensive delivery systems capable of threatening
> U.S.
> national security.
>
> Now advising Obama, former Carter National Security Advisor Zbigniew
> Brzezinski, for example, argued that public support for war [7] "should
> not
> be generated by fear-mongering or demagogy." Brzezinski seems to have
> learned from mistakes like arming the Mujahideen. He warned that invading
> a
> country that was no threat to the United States would threaten America's
> global leadership because most of the international community would see it
> as an illegitimate act of aggression.
>
> Another key Obama advisor, the Carnegie Endowment's Joseph Cirincione,
> argued that the goal [8] of containing the potential threat from Iraq had
> been achieved as a result of sanctions, the return of inspectors, and a
> multinational force stationed in the region serving as a deterrent.
> Meanwhile, other future Obama advisors -- such as Susan Rice, Larry Korb,
> Samantha Power, and Richard Clarke -- raised concerns about the human and
> material costs of invading and occupying a large Middle Eastern country
> and
> the risks of American forces becoming embroiled in post-invasion chaos and
> a
> lengthy counter-insurgency war.
>
> These differences in the key circles of foreign policy specialists
> surrounding these two candidates are consistent with their diametrically
> opposing views in the lead-up to the war, with Clinton voting to let
> President Bush invade that oil-rich country at the time and circumstances
> of
> his choosing, while Obama was speaking out to oppose a U.S. invasion.
>
> Hillary Clinton has a few advisors who did oppose the war, like Wesley
> Clark, but taken together, the kinds of key people she's surrounded
> herself
> with supports the likelihood that her administration, like Bush's, would
> be
> more likely to embrace exaggerated [9] and alarmist reports regarding
> potential national security threats, to ignore international law [10] and
> the advice of allies, and to launch offensive wars.
>
> By contrast, as The Nation magazine noted [11], a Barack Obama
> administration would be more likely to examine the actual evidence [12] of
> potential threats before reacting, to work more closely with America's
> allies to maintain peace and security, to respect the country's
> international legal obligations, and to use military force only as a last
> resort.
>
> In terms of Iran, for instance, Cirincione has downplayed the supposed
> threat, while Clinton advisor Holbrooke insists that [13] "the Iranians
> are
> an enormous threat to the United States," the country is "the most
> pressing
> problem nation," and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is like Hitler.
> This is consistent with Clinton's vote for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment
> [14]
> that opened the door to a potential Bush attack on Iran, and with Obama's
> opposition to it.
>
> Given the problems exemplified by the tragic legacy of the current
> administration, primary voters should recognize that Obama's promise of
> change is the most prudent course in these dangerous times.
>
> Stephen Zunes is a professor of Politics and International Studies at the
> University of San Francisco.
>
> _______
>
>
>
> --
> NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
> always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
> available to advance understanding of
> political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues.
> I
> believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
> Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
>
> "A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
> spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
> government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
> suffering deeply in spirit,
> and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
> debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
> patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
> back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are
> at
> stake."
> -Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>
 
On Feb 12, 12:09 pm, Middle Class Warrior
<middle_class_warri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Bret Cahill wrote:
> > Obama, like Kerry, is a media pump 'n dump.

>
> > The media pump the weakest Democrat until the nomination and then they
> > will dump him and President McCain will keep the troops in Iraq for
> > the next 8 years.

>
> > And Democrats will be wondering why we lost the general election in
> > '08 all the way to 2016.

>
> > Clinton is a practical person and will pull most of the troops out in
> > a year.

>
> > The real issue in the primaries is Clintin v McCain not Obama v
> > McCain.

>
> > In politics you sometimes need to be smarter than a plate of noodles.

>
> > Bret Cahill

>
> Wrongo. Obama is stronger candidate against McCain because he will pull
> independent voters. The polls have been showing that for a long time.
> Hillary's position on the war is more suspect than Obama's. She voted
> for military force against Iraq, Obama didn't.
>

[snip]

Obama's anti-war credentials originated from a speech he made as an
Illinois state senator. However, since joining the US Senate he has
never made an anti-war speech on the floor of the Senate chamber and
he has voted to fund the war just as many times as Clinton has. On
the other hand, I don't recall Clinton ever suggesting sending US
troops into Pakistan in pursuit of al-Qaeda. Frankly, the idea that
Obama would consider sending the US military unilaterally into a
sovereign nation is disturbing.

Having watched this campaign closely, I believe that despite his
native intelligence and style, Obama is a naive and superficial
thinker on many issues. I would describe him as an example of "form
over substance." Of course, that's what Americans seem to prefer
these days. I also find his less than committed position on the scope
of universal health care very disturbing. And his comments about
Reagan's ability to deliver his message to a wide audience ("...he
just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want
clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism
and entrepreneurship that had been missing") was certainly not an
endorsement of Reagan's presidency, but it was an expression of
admiration for the man's ability to motivate the people. Never mind
that Hitler had the same skill or that Reagan was the catalyst for
accelerating America's ongoing descent into fascism. Obama could have
picked a better role model. Regardless, I am beginning to think an
Obama presidency would be a mistake. His vague rhetoric and
unwillingness to commit to policy on the basis of principle is a
recipe for disappointment and disillusionment.

I don't care for any of the likely candidates. That said, I'm
convinced Obama is the least qualified of the three majors to actually
implement programs of benefit to the most Americans. As others have
noted, he is an "empty suit."
 
"Middle Class Warrior" <middle_class_warrior1@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:phlsj.6$%g.5@trnddc08...
> Bret Cahill wrote:
>> Obama, like Kerry, is a media pump 'n dump.
>>
>> The media pump the weakest Democrat until the nomination and then they
>> will dump him and President McCain will keep the troops in Iraq for
>> the next 8 years.
>>
>> And Democrats will be wondering why we lost the general election in
>> '08 all the way to 2016.
>>
>> Clinton is a practical person and will pull most of the troops out in
>> a year.
>>
>> The real issue in the primaries is Clintin v McCain not Obama v
>> McCain.
>>
>> In politics you sometimes need to be smarter than a plate of noodles.
>>
>>
>> Bret Cahill
>>
>>

> Wrongo. Obama is stronger candidate against McCain because he will pull
> independent voters.


From everything I have read, so will McCain, so it all boils down to who get
the most independent voters. Besides, it is a silly statement to make in
any event. Independent voters WILL most likely vote for whoever they decide
to vote for, that is why they are called independent voters.

The polls have been showing that for a long time.
> Hillary's position on the war is more suspect than Obama's. She voted for
> military force against Iraq, Obama didn't.


Well, hell yes. Obama was not in the Senate when the vote was cast. How
can you vote for something you could not vote for? Now he did say he would
not have voted to give Bush the authorization, but since he did not have to
vote, we really do not know what he would have actually done, do we? We
have to trust him (just another politician) telling us what he would have
done....
>
 
>> The polls have been showing that for a long time.
> > Hillary's position on the war is more suspect than Obama's. She voted
> > for military force against Iraq, Obama didn't.

>
> [snip]
>
> Obama's anti-war credentials originated from a speech he made as an
> Illinois state senator. �However, since joining the US Senate he has
> never made an anti-war speech on the floor of the Senate chamber and
> he has voted to fund the war just as many times as Clinton has. �


If Obama really wanted to get the troops out fast he'ld signal Bush
that there _will_ be war crimes prosecutions if Obama has to clean up
the Iraqi mess.

Problem is Obama never takes a stand on anything.


> On
> the other hand, I don't recall Clinton ever suggesting sending US
> troops into Pakistan in pursuit of al-Qaeda. �Frankly, the idea that
> Obama would consider sending the US military unilaterally into a
> sovereign nation is disturbing.


> Having watched this campaign closely, I believe that despite his
> native intelligence and style, Obama is a naive and superficial
> thinker on many issues. �I would describe him as an example of "form
> over substance." �


The perfect replacement for Kerry, perfect for pumping and dumping.
After he's nominated the media will stop singing "Obama you are so
beautiful" and instead lead him around by the nose to every place
where they'll have their buddies waiting to kick him head over heels.

That's exactly what happened in 2004:

"Oh Kerry!" they gushed, "only a war hero vet can become
president . . ."

Then they gave the clueless Kerry a swift kick in the ass so fast
Kerry _still_ doesn't know what happened.

> Of course, that's what Americans seem to prefer
> these days. �I also find his less than committed position on the scope
> of universal health care very disturbing. �And his comments about
> Reagan's ability to deliver his message to a wide audience ("...he
> just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want
> clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism
> and entrepreneurship that had been missing") was certainly not an
> endorsement of Reagan's presidency, but it was an expression of
> admiration for the man's ability to motivate the people.


Never mind that Reagan never actually said anything.

>�Never mind
> that Hitler had the same skill or that Reagan was the catalyst for
> accelerating America's ongoing descent into fascism. �Obama could have
> picked a better role model. �Regardless, I am beginning to think an
> Obama presidency would be a mistake. �His vague rhetoric and
> unwillingness to commit to policy on the basis of principle is a
> recipe for disappointment and disillusionment.


> I don't care for any of the likely candidates. �That said, I'm
> convinced Obama is the least qualified of the three majors to actually
> implement programs of benefit to the most Americans. �As others have
> noted, he is an "empty suit."-


Hillary will be a good president.


Bret Cahill
 
On Feb 12, 9:58 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
> Obama, like Kerry, is a media pump 'n dump.
>
> The media pump the weakest Democrat until the nomination and then they
> will dump him and President McCain will keep the troops in Iraq for
> the next 8 years.
>
> And Democrats will be wondering why we lost the general election in
> '08 all the way to 2016.
>
> Clinton is a practical person and will pull most of the troops out in
> a year.
>
> The real issue in the primaries is Clintin v McCain not Obama v
> McCain.
>
> In politics you sometimes need to be smarter than a plate of noodles.


it is very sad

hillary cannot win on issues or substance (or even ideas!)
hillary cannot win on experience (hers has only been bad)
hillary most likely will not win
period

she tried to win by race early on
shocking many

she tried to win by sympathy
but appeared even more false and manipulative

and it is so sad her supporters' last effort
is to try to get her to win by paranoia

when obama wins the presidency
her supporters will have lost all credibility

look at yourself brett

look at what you have become

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
 
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