Is rejecting Christianity a step forward? IMNSHO Yes

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Carl Sagan's billions

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I struggled for a long time in my younger years trying to
understand the basic doctrines, the core beliefs, the philosophies,
the essence and contradictions in Old versus New Testament, the
behavior of warrior Christian nations wreaking havoc in non-Christian
colonies (and again conducting horrible bombing wars on non-Christian
people in Asia), Genesis, Noah, the many other stories in the Bible,
etc..

Then slowly I came to understand several truths described below,
which eventually enabled me to (gradually) throw off the yoke,
the shackles and the blinders of a long childhood indoctrination in
Christianity, and I WAS FREE ----- FOREVER:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
by humans, not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
ideas and concepts that evolved and were then accepted as
the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new) gospel,
the (new) 'true' religion.

2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.

If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.

This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
exist forever.

We fear death; we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death; we need to believe we are immortal.
We can't avoid fabricating a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.

4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.

That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).

The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins for all people forever for all times. That brilliant idea of hope
and total redemption and forgiveness by the almighty ruler arose
from much older pagan religions that had human sacrifices at
their core:

The ultimate sacrifice, as proof of total submission and
of giving your own most valuable 'asset', was to give up and offer
your own son (example in the Abraham-Isaac story). That's why
'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ - the Son - was
sacrificed by the Father and died for the sins of all mankind.

This was a brilliant expansion of the original idea
behind human sacrifices. Not only did the all-powerful
God himself give part of himself (the Son) as the sacrifice, this
sacrifice was so big, so ALL encompassing that it forgave
ALL sins of ALL human beings for ALL times forever.

As our species Homo Sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.

5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.

There are over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
and a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the visible
universe, containing many billions of inhabited planets. It is
illogical to assume that God sacrificed his son on millions or
even billions of planets.

6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion.

That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
thinkers with new ideas, creative thinkers who strongly reject the
older ideas and entice multitudes with newer messages of hope.

7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.

As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our material world) exists.

8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.

As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:

There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
our physical environment.

That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce/assume
a supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.

You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'one' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.

Example:
In the 2004 tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
He did not cause it, and he did not prevent it.

9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all

--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----

does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.

In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions always consist
of a mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories, taboos,
legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.

That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation of life, or even reform itself into a more rational
philosophy of life.

So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.

The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.

10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:

o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona

Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient and fixed beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with
smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.

There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.

However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
and complexity of the physical universe.

But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment and the
accumulation of material possessions:
The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.

The basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
including Christianity and Islam, in their core must stay so anti-
science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
system that so clearly exposes the phallacies in their inherited
belief system.
============================================

Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?

Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
of years ago, who did not know any better (not their fault),
it is much better to determine our own beliefs and truths.

That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
heaven, hell, sin, soul, etc.

That freedom will jettison all the religious garbage that is
a constant obstructionist obstacle to a better, more rational
and more humane world.

Rationality does not ENSURE more humanity, but in my
opinion it is a more promising path than non-rationality
including religions such as Christianity.
Rationality combined with humanism may guide us
to a better world of fairness, justice, peace and
rational problem solving.

Do I think this is feasible? Not really: Power, greed, racism,
and power politics are superstrong human and societal forces
(for injustice, wars, killing, irrationality, waste, destruction,
hate, intolerance, etc.). But it shows the direction of hope and we
can then analyze that direction rationally and plan a path to try to
channel, restrict or even partially control the beast.

Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions and Billions
 
This is absolutely sound reasoning. there is tons of objective verifiable
evidence that no real gods exist except in peoples imaginations.

There is zero objective verifiable evidence that ANY REAL gods exist.

"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2terra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eba19d60-d6da-45f0-b181-c4ef5f8bf4ea@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I struggled for a long time in my younger years trying to
> understand the basic doctrines, the core beliefs, the philosophies,
> the essence and contradictions in Old versus New Testament, the
> behavior of warrior Christian nations wreaking havoc in non-Christian
> colonies (and again conducting horrible bombing wars on non-Christian
> people in Asia), Genesis, Noah, the many other stories in the Bible,
> etc..
>
> Then slowly I came to understand several truths described below,
> which eventually enabled me to (gradually) throw off the yoke,
> the shackles and the blinders of a long childhood indoctrination in
> Christianity, and I WAS FREE ----- FOREVER:
>
> 1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
> by humans, not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
> ideas and concepts that evolved and were then accepted as
> the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new) gospel,
> the (new) 'true' religion.
>
> 2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
> Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
> was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
> suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
>
> If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
> being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
> or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
>
> This means:
> All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
> don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
> of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
> A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
> we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
> exist forever.
>
> We fear death; we fear being gone forever.
> We want to deny death; we need to believe we are immortal.
> We can't avoid fabricating a reason for our existence.
> 3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
> the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
> when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
> in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
> its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
>
> 4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
> to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
> already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
>
> That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
> point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
> or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
> to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
> (suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
>
> The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
> sins for all people forever for all times. That brilliant idea of hope
> and total redemption and forgiveness by the almighty ruler arose
> from much older pagan religions that had human sacrifices at
> their core:
>
> The ultimate sacrifice, as proof of total submission and
> of giving your own most valuable 'asset', was to give up and offer
> your own son (example in the Abraham-Isaac story). That's why
> 'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ - the Son - was
> sacrificed by the Father and died for the sins of all mankind.
>
> This was a brilliant expansion of the original idea
> behind human sacrifices. Not only did the all-powerful
> God himself give part of himself (the Son) as the sacrifice, this
> sacrifice was so big, so ALL encompassing that it forgave
> ALL sins of ALL human beings for ALL times forever.
>
> As our species Homo Sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
> never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
> God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
> in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
> a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
> of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
> has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
> not have the intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.
>
> 5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
> Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
> not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
> it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
> 4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
>
> There are over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
> and a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the visible
> universe, containing many billions of inhabited planets. It is
> illogical to assume that God sacrificed his son on millions or
> even billions of planets.
>
> 6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
> religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
> and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
> finally into structured beliefs = religion.
>
> That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
> religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
> created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
> thinkers with new ideas, creative thinkers who strongly reject the
> older ideas and entice multitudes with newer messages of hope.
>
> 7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
> 'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
> made.
>
> As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
> a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
> God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
> = interferes in our material world) exists.
>
> 8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
> that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
>
> As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
> decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
> other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
> universes, there is only one conclusion left:
>
> There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
> our physical environment.
>
> That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
> explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce/assume
> a supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
> acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
> God does not exist and was made up.
>
> You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
> You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
> 'one' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
>
> Example:
> In the 2004 tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
> were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
> 'God' did not do it.
> 'Satan' did not do it.
> Humans did not do it.
> The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
> which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
> volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
> natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
> Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
> He did not cause it, and he did not prevent it.
>
> 9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
> profound mystery of all
>
> --- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
>
> does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
> Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
> and rules and monitors everything.
>
> In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
> In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
> resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
> more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
> and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions always consist
> of a mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories, taboos,
> legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
> explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
> and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
> more rational explanations.
>
> That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
> it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
> of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
> cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
> explanation of life, or even reform itself into a more rational
> philosophy of life.
>
> So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
> explanations for life and death, made by men and women
> who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
>
> The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
> fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
> will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
> slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
> will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
> as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
> acceptable to more and more people.
>
> 10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
>
> o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
> o the scientific/rational approach or persona
>
> Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
> on ancient and fixed beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with
> smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
> or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
>
> There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
> on longer terms science and associated education
> will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
>
> However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
> even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g. if
> and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
> as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
> science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
> and complexity of the physical universe.
>
> But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
> by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
> get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment and the
> accumulation of material possessions:
> The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.
>
> The basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
> including Christianity and Islam, in their core must stay so anti-
> science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
> system that so clearly exposes the phallacies in their inherited
> belief system.
> ============================================
>
> Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
>
> Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
> created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
> of years ago, who did not know any better (not their fault),
> it is much better to determine our own beliefs and truths.
>
> That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
> prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
> supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
> heaven, hell, sin, soul, etc.
>
> That freedom will jettison all the religious garbage that is
> a constant obstructionist obstacle to a better, more rational
> and more humane world.
>
> Rationality does not ENSURE more humanity, but in my
> opinion it is a more promising path than non-rationality
> including religions such as Christianity.
> Rationality combined with humanism may guide us
> to a better world of fairness, justice, peace and
> rational problem solving.
>
> Do I think this is feasible? Not really: Power, greed, racism,
> and power politics are superstrong human and societal forces
> (for injustice, wars, killing, irrationality, waste, destruction,
> hate, intolerance, etc.). But it shows the direction of hope and we
> can then analyze that direction rationally and plan a path to try to
> channel, restrict or even partially control the beast.
>
> Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions and Billions
 
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