"Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"

G

Gandalf Grey

Guest
Tomgram: Ira Chernus asks, "Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"

By Tom Engelhardt

Created Jan 14 2008 - 9:13am


- from TomDispatch [1]

Here's the strange thing: If we are in a political "season of change" [2]
and "change" is now the word most used by presidential candidates, change
isn't exactly valued when it comes to presidential runs themselves. Take,
for example, the Democratic debate [3] moderated by ABC News' Charlie Gibson
a week ago. In that mere hour and a half of television, Gibson, his TV
sidekicks like George Stephanopoulos, and the four candidates managed to use
the "C" word some 48 times -- being "agents of" or "power voices for
change," "making," "delivering," "producing," "advocating for," "fighting
for," "believing deeply in," "loving," even "embody[ing] change." In the
process, they just about ground change into the dust. But lurking in the
background was another use of that word -- as an accusation -- and it went
unnoticed.

Here's Hillary Clinton, for example, launching an attack on Barack Obama:

"You know, I think that, two weeks ago, you criticized Senator Edwards in
saying that he was unelectable because he had changed positions over the
course of four years, that four years ago he wasn't for universal health
care; now, he is. Well, you've changed positions within three years on, you
know, a range of issues that you put forth when you ran for the Senate, and
now you have changed."

To which, Obama had to respond: "I have been entirely consistent in my
position on health care."

This is typical of our electoral moment and it's another little legacy [4]
of the Bush era. You can probably thank Karl Rove for this one because in
2004, handling a notoriously single-minded, inflexible, and stubborn
candidate, he managed to turn the "C" word into a curse no one is likely to
forget. To change, you remember, was actually to "flip-flop." [5] And if
there's one thing in the post-2004 era that no candidate can now afford to
be charged with, it's flipping and flopping like a fish on the deck of a
ship.

John Edwards, for instance, recently changed his position [6] on Iraq in a
significant way. While still in the Iowa caucus race, he called for the
withdrawal within 10 months of all American troops in Iraq (except for a few
thousand soldiers left to guard the Baghdad embassy), including the trainers
of Iraqi troops. Previously, like the other two leading candidates, he had
only called for [7] the withdrawal of American "combat troops" who make up
perhaps half of the U.S. troop contingent. He was not challenged on this in
the debate, but had he been, he would surely have little choice but to claim
that he, too, had somehow been "consistent," that he hadn't flip-flopped on
Iraq.

As a result, the "change" candidates of 2008, wielding the "C" word for an
audience "fired up" for. well, you know what, so just shout it out. must
themselves swear that they are "consistent" in their positions, that, in
short, they do not change. The one thing these candidates of change can't go
out in public and say is something like: "Well, that was 2002, but in the
intervening years, I've done a lot of thinking, had new experiences, grown,
matured. changed, and so has my position on [you fill in the issue]."

Change may, or may not, turn out to be the Pied Piper of 2008 for the
American voter, but it surely will remain the Scylla and Charybdis of
twenty-first century presidential politics. So watch out. be consistent. go
(like the Republican candidates [8]) for the "eternal" verities. and, while
you're at it, consider the nature of religious consistency in politics,
because this election is, so far, not just the non-flip-flop election, but
the "faith" election in which even Hillary Clinton has [9] a "Faith, Family
and Values" team on her campaign staff, while John McCain claimed on the
campaign trail that he thought the Constitution had established a "Christian
nation". but let Tomdispatch regular and professor of religion Ira Chernus
tell you the rest.

-- Tom



Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? Faith Talk on the Campaign Trail

By Ira Chernus

It's a presidential campaign like no other. The candidates have been falling
all over each other in their rush to declare the depth and sincerity of
their religious faith. The pundits have been just as eager to raise
questions that seem obvious and important: Should we let religious beliefs
influence the making of law and public policy? If so, in what way and to
what extent? Those questions, however, assume that candidates bring the
subject of faith into the political arena largely to justify -- or turn up
the heat under -- their policy positions. In fact, faith talk often has
little to do with candidates' stands on the issues. There's something else
going on here.

Look at the TV ad [10] that brought Mike Huckabee out of obscurity in Iowa,
the one that identified him as a "Christian Leader" who proclaims: "Faith
doesn't just influence me. It really defines me." That ad did indeed mention
a couple of actual political issues -- the usual suspects, abortion and gay
marriage -- but only in passing. Then Huckabee followed up with a red
sweater-themed Christmas ad [11] that actively encouraged voters to ignore
the issues. We're all tired of politics, the kindly pastor indicated. Let's
just drop all the policy stuff and talk about Christmas -- and Christ.

Ads like his aren't meant to argue policy. They aim to create an image -- in
this case, of a good Christian with a steady moral compass who sticks to his
principles. At a deeper level, faith-talk ads work hard to turn the
candidate -- whatever candidate -- into a bulwark of solidity, a symbol of
certainty; their goal is to offer assurance that the basic rules for living
remain fixed, objective truths, as true as religion.

In a time when the world seems like a shaky place -- whether you have a
child in Iraq, a mortgage you may not be able to meet, a pension threatening
to head south, a job evaporating under you, a loved one battling drug or
alcohol addiction, an ex who just came out as gay or born-again, or a
president you just can't trust -- you may begin to wonder whether there is
any moral order in the universe. Are the very foundations of society so
shaky that they might not hold up for long? Words about faith -- nearly any
words -- speak reassuringly to such fears, which haunt millions of
Americans.

These fears and the religious responses to them have been a key to the
political success of the religious right in recent decades. Randall Balmer,
a leading scholar of evangelical Christianity, points out that it's offered
not so much "issues" to mobilize around as "an unambiguous morality in an
age of moral and ethical uncertainty."

Mitt Romney was courting the evangelical-swinging-toward-Huckabee vote when
he, too, went out of his way to link religion with moral absolutes in his
big Iowa speech [12] on faith. Our "common creed of moral convictions. the
firm ground on which Americans of different faiths meet" turned out, utterly
unsurprisingly, to be none other than religious soil: "We believe that every
single human being is a child of God. liberty is a gift of God." No doubts
allowed here.

American politicians have regularly wielded religious language and symbolism
in their moments of need, and such faith talk has always helped provide a
sense of moral certainty in a shape-shifting world. But in the better years
of the previous century, candidates used religion mostly as an adjunct to
the real meat of the political process, a tool to whip up support for
policies.

How times have changed. Think of it, perhaps, as a way to measure the
powerful sense of unsettledness that has taken a firm hold on American
society. Candidates increasingly keep their talk about religion separate
from specific campaign issues. They promote faith as something important and
valuable in and of itself in the election process. They invariably avow the
deep roots of their religious faith and link it not with issues, but with
certitude itself.

Sometimes it seems that Democrats do this with even more grim regularity
than Republicans. John Edwards [13], for example, reassured the nation that
"the hand of God today is in every step of what happens with me and every
human being that exists on this planet." In the same forum, Hillary Clinton
proclaimed that she "had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and
the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world
thought. And that's all one can expect or hope for."

When religious language enters the political arena in this way, as an end in
itself, it always sends the same symbolic message: Yes, Virginia (or Iowa or
New Hampshire or South Carolina) there are absolute values, universal truths
that can never change. You are not adrift in a sea of moral chaos. Elect me
and you're sure to have a fixed mooring to hold you and your community fast
forever.

That message does its work in cultural depths that arguments about the
separation of church and state can never touch. Even if the candidates
themselves don't always understand what their words are doing, this is the
biggest, most overlooked piece in today's faith and politics puzzle -- and
once you start looking for it, you find it nearly everywhere on the
political landscape.

The Threat to Democracy

So, when it comes to religion and politics, here's the most critical
question: Should we turn the political arena into a stage to dramatize our
quest for moral certainty? The simple answer is no -- for lots of reasons.

For starters, it's a direct threat to democracy. The essence of our system
is that we, the people, get to choose our values. We don't discover them
inscribed in the cosmos. So everything must be open to question, to debate,
and therefore to change. In a democracy, there should be no fixed truth
except that everyone has the right to offer a new view -- and to change his
or her mind. It's a process whose outcome should never be predictable, a
process without end. A claim to absolute truth -- any absolute truth --
stops that process.

For those of us who see the political arena as the place where the whole
community gathers to work for a better world, it's even more important to
insist that politics must be about large-scale change. The politics of moral
absolutes sends just the opposite message: Don't worry, whatever small
changes are necessary, it's only in order to resist the fundamental
crumbling that frightens so many. Nothing really important can ever change.

Many liberals and progressives hear that profoundly conservative message
even when it's hidden beneath all the reasonable arguments about church and
state. That's one big reason they are often so quick to sound a shrill alarm
at every sign of faith-based politics.

They also know how easy it is to go from "there is a fixed truth" to "I have
that fixed truth." And they've seen that the fixed truth in question is all
too often about personal behaviors that ought to be matters of free choice
in a democracy.

Which brings us to the next danger: Words alone are rarely enough to
reassure the uncertain. In fact, the more people rely on faith talk to
pursue certainty, the more they may actually reinforce both anxiety and
uncertainty. It's a small step indeed to move beyond the issue of individual
self-control to controlling others through the passage of laws.

Campaigns to put the government's hands on our bodies are not usually
missionary efforts meant to make us accept someone else's religion. They are
much more often campaigns to stage symbolic dramas about self-control and
moral reassurance.

Controlling the Passions

American culture has always put a spotlight on the question: Can you control
your impulses and desires -- especially sexual desires -- enough to live up
to the moral rules? As historian of religion John F. Wilson tells us, the
quest for surety has typically focused on a "control of self" that "through
discipline" finally becomes self-control. In the 2008 presidential campaign,
this still remains true. Listen, for example, to Barack Obama [14]: "My
Bible tells me that if we train a child in the way he should go, when he is
old he will not turn from it. So I think faith and guidance can help
fortify. a sense of reverence that all young people should have for the act
of sexual intimacy."

Mitt Romney fit snugly into the same mold. He started his widely-heralded
statement on religion by talking about a time when "our nation faced its
greatest peril," a threat to "the survival of a free land." Was he talking
about terrorism? No. He immediately went on to warn that the real danger
comes from "human passions unbridled." Only morality and religion can do the
necessary bridling, he argued, quoting John Adams to make his case: "Our
constitution was made for a moral and religious people" -- in other words,
people who can control themselves. That's why "freedom requires religion."

All too often, though, the faith-talk view of freedom ends up taking away
freedom. When Romney said [15] he'd be "delighted" to sign "a federal ban on
all abortions," only a minority of Americans approved of that position (if
we can believe the polls), but it was a sizeable minority. For them, fear of
unbridled passion is stronger than any commitment to personal freedom.

In the end, it may be mostly their own passions that they fear. But since
the effort to control oneself is frustrating, it can easily turn into a
quest for "control over other selves," to quote historian Wilson again,
"with essentially bipolar frameworks for conceiving of the world: good
versus bad, us versus them" -- "them" being liberals, secular humanists,
wild kids, or whatever label the moment calls for.

The upholders of virtue want to convince each other that their values are
absolutely true. So they stick together and stand firm against those who
walk in error. As Romney put it, "Any person who has knelt in prayer to the
Almighty has a friend and ally in me."

That's the main dynamic driving the movements to ban abortion and gay
marriage. But they're just the latest in a long line of such movements,
including those aimed at prohibiting or restricting alcohol, drugs,
gambling, birth control, crime, and other behaviors that are, in a given
period, styled as immoral.

Since it's always about getting "them" to control their passions, the target
is usually personal behavior. But it doesn't have to be. Just about any law
or policy can become a symbol of eternal moral truth -- even foreign policy,
one area where liberals, embarked on their own faith-talk campaigns, are
more likely to join conservatives.

The bipartisan war on terror has, for instance, been a symbolic drama of "us
versus them," acting out a tale of moral truth. Rudolph Giuliani made the
connection clear shortly after the 9/11 attack when he went to the United
Nations to whip up support for that "war." "The era of moral relativism.
must end," he demanded [16]. "Moral relativism does not have a place in this
discussion and debate."

Nor does it have a place in the current campaign debate about foreign
policy. Candidate Huckabee, for example, has no hesitation about linking war
abroad to the state of morality here at home. He wants to continue fighting
[17] in Iraq, he says, because "our way of life, our economic and moral
strength, our civilization is at stake. I am determined to look this evil in
the eye, confront it, defeat it." As his anti-gay marriage statement [18]
asks, "What's the point of keeping the terrorists at bay in the Middle East,
if we can't keep decline and decadence at bay here at home?"

On the liberal side, the theme is more muted but still there. Barack Obama,
for instance, has affirmed [19] that the U.S. must "lead the world in
battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. I still believe
that America is the last, best hope of Earth." Apparently that's why we need
to keep tens of thousands of troops in Iraq indefinitely. Clinton calls for
[20] "a bipartisan consensus to ensure our interests, increase our security
and advance our values," acting out "our deeply-held desire to remake the
world as it ought to be." Apparently that's why, in her words, "we cannot
take any option off the table in sending a clear message to the current
leadership of Iran."

When words and policies become symbols of moral absolutes, they are usually
about preventing some "evil" deed or turning things back to the way they
(supposedly) used to be. So they are likely to have a conservative impact,
even when they come from liberals.

The Future of Faith Talk

In itself, faith in politics poses no great danger to democracy as long as
the debates are really about policies -- and religious values are translated
into [21] political values, articulated in ways that can be rationally
debated by people who don't share them. The challenge is not to get religion
out of politics. It's to get the quest for certitude out of politics.

The first step is to ask why that quest seems increasingly central to our
politics today. It's not simply because a right-wing cabal wants to impose
its religion on us. The cabal exists, but it's not powerful enough to shape
the political scene on its own. That power lies with millions of voters
across the political spectrum. Candidates talk about faith because they want
to win votes.

Voters reward faith talk because they want candidates to offer them symbols
of immutable moral order. The root of the problem lies in the underlying
insecurities of voters, in a sense of powerlessness that makes change seem
so frightening, and control -- especially of others -- so necessary.

The only way to alter that condition is to transform our society so that
voters will feel empowered enough to take the risks, and tolerate the
freedom that democracy requires. That would be genuine change. It's a
political problem with a political solution. Until that solution begins to
emerge, there is no way to take the conservative symbolic message of faith
talk out of American politics.

Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado
at Boulder and author of Monsters To Destroy: The Neoconservative War on
Terror and Sin [22].

Copyright 2008 Ira Chernus



--
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of
political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107

"A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
suffering deeply in spirit,
and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at
stake."
-Thomas Jefferson
 
"Gandalf Grey" <valinor20@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:478cf235$0$14096$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> Tomgram: Ira Chernus asks, "Is Religion a Threat to
> Democracy?"
>
> By Tom Engelhardt
>
> Created Jan 14 2008 - 9:13am
>
>
> - from TomDispatch [1]
>
> Here's the strange thing: If we are in a political "season
> of change" [2]



Regime change with the neocons getting the same treatment as
they gave Sadam Hussein. That is hanging by a kangaroo court.

Off with their traitor heads!



peace
dawg
 
"Deputy Dumbya Dawg" <dd_Dog@whiteehouuse.gov> wrote in message
news:13oq2cmpcb40067@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Gandalf Grey" <valinor20@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:478cf235$0$14096$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>> Tomgram: Ira Chernus asks, "Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"
>>
>> By Tom Engelhardt
>>
>> Created Jan 14 2008 - 9:13am
>>
>>
>> - from TomDispatch [1]
>>
>> Here's the strange thing: If we are in a political "season of change" [2]

>
>
> Regime change with the neocons getting the same treatment as they gave
> Sadam Hussein. That is hanging by a kangaroo court.
>
> Off with their traitor heads!


Hell! Give them a fair trial and I'll lay odds they lose their heads.

>
>
>
> peace
> dawg
>
 
On Jan 15, 3:06 pm, lorad...@cs.com wrote:
> On Jan 15, 10:06 am, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"

>
> Of course not.. that's sheer stupidity.
>
> The opposite is true.. all successful democracies have REQUIRED the
> presence of religion to be successful.
> Name one that hasn't.


First of all, you can't correlate the success of a democracy (or
anything for that matter) with a requirement of religion. There is no
metric that can prove such an arbitrary claim.

Second, doesn't it seem odd that a totally tyrannical, undemocratic
system (i.e. any organized religion) would be required to maintain a
successful democratic system. It's like claiming you must have some
expression of violence in order to maintain a non-violent society.

You make no sense at all.
 
lorad474@cs.com wrote:
> On Jan 15, 10:06 am, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"

>
> Of course not.. that's sheer stupidity.
>
> The opposite is true.. all successful democracies have REQUIRED the
> presence of religion to be successful.
> Name one that hasn't.


You need to study the French Revolution. It was very secular and
anti-Catholic and led to democracy in France. The Christian religious
leaders usually supported the status quo and was the biggest cause of
the Middle Ages in Europe.

There have been changes. Only the Fundy churches supported the Bush War
in Iraq. Mainstream Protestant and Catholic churches did not support the
Bush invasion of Iraq.
 
On Jan 15, 4:06 pm, lorad...@cs.com wrote:
> On Jan 15, 10:06 am, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"

>
> Of course not.. that's sheer stupidity.
>
> The opposite is true.. all successful democracies have REQUIRED the
> presence of religion to be successful.
> Name one that hasn't.


Religion is a threat to HUMAN SURVIVAL

Why Religious Thinking is a Threat to Human Survival

Most humanists and atheists such as myself take it for granted that
religious claims are false. However many among us would classify
ourselves as not merely a-theist, but anti-theist. The reason for this
is that religious belief is not simply false and innocuous - as belief
in Santa Claus, for instance - but has positively harmful consequences
for society that must be actively combated.

The central problem of faith is that it produces the predisposition
NOT to act to safeguard or promote the safety and well-being of
oneself and others. This disinclination can apply to reactive
situations where one fails to take action to safeguard against looming
danger, or it can refer to a proactive failure of creative imagination
to constantly improve our lives. Both must be accounted for.

The paragon instance of this deleterious world view is surely
represented by the asininely negligent George W. Bush asking the
nation to pray for New Orleans as hurricane Katrina bore down upon the
pious city, while decades of engineering and scientific warnings to
shore up the levees were ignored and millions of lives needlessly
devastated.
Virtually all religions teach that some powerful being/force is acting
as a hidden hand, guiding the events of our lives. The inescapable
conclusion is that human beings are essentially powerless to shape our
future.

This belief is reportedly a chief source of the psychological appeal
of religion, however it comes at a striking cost to human esteem and
dignity: it psychologically disempowers human beings, leading to
fatalism, complacency and inaction where prayer and faith replace
taking effective action to solve problems or safeguard the future.

By contrast those who reject blind faith realize that our future
depends entirely upon the actions we take and the choices we make.
Nature and the world around us impose consequences on us as a result
of our actions and inactions alike, and those consequences affect
believers and disbelievers without prejudice. For example, in 1884 a
devastating 7.0 earthquake hit Granada in Spain, one of the most
devoutly pious nations on earth, killing 800, injuring 1,500 and
destroying 4000 homes on Christmas Day.

The key point is that religious belief provides false solutions that
displace prudent and truly effective solutions from being implemented,
or from even being invented in the first place. The religious edicts
against the sinfulness of condom use is merely stupid within a first-
world context, but when applied to the situation in AIDS-ridden Africa
the religious discouragement of condoms is positively genocidal. Even
more chilling, we now have the prospect of several Muslim countries
steeped in the Dark Age world view of Jihad and Martyrdom deploying
nuclear weapons, while Zionists in the constitutionally racist "Jewish
state" of Israel and the speaking-in-tongues lunatics in the White
House prepare their own nukes for the Rapture.

The obvious religious evils aside, if all the hours of human effort
that have been wasted on ridiculous religious tasks had instead been
used to study medicine, geology and engineering there is no telling
what blights to human existence may have been mitigated over the
centuries. If we take account of not only the well known direct
harmful effects of religion, but also the indirect lost opportunity,
then we begin to develop an accurate picture of what religion costs
society and why it should not be merely tolerated as a quaint cultural
relic of our intellectual infancy but outright opposed as a chief
force for evil in the world.

Further Reading: Christopher Hitchens, 'god is not Great: How Religion
Poisons Everything'; Sam Harris, 'The End of Faith'; www.carpediembc.com.

(Edited version published in the Sept. 13, 2007 edition of the
Martlet)

Posted by Derek Madson

Albert Einstein: It is a Lie that I Believe in a Personal God

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions,
a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a
personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it
clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it
is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as
our science can reveal it.

- Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert
Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

Christians hold that their faith does good, but other faiths do harm.
At any rate, they hold this about the Communist faith. What I wish to
maintain is that all faiths do harm. We may define 'faith' as a firm
belief in something for which there is no evidence. When there is
evidence, no one speaks of 'faith.' We do not speak of faith that two
and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith
when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence.

--- Bertrand Russell
 
On Jan 15, 3:39 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Religion is a threat to HUMAN SURVIVAL


Were that the case, humans should have died off thousands of years
ago.

> Most humanists and atheists such as myself take it for granted that
> religious claims are false.


And I take if for granted that your claims are false. So where does
that leave us?

> The central problem of faith is that it produces the predisposition
> NOT to act to safeguard or promote the safety and well-being of
> oneself and others.


"God helps those who help themselves"

> The paragon instance of this deleterious world view is surely
> represented by the asininely negligent George W. Bush asking the
> nation to pray for New Orleans as hurricane Katrina bore down upon the
> pious city, while decades of engineering and scientific warnings to
> shore up the levees were ignored and millions of lives needlessly
> devastated.


Nothing wrong with praying, though I seriously doubt that it helped.
OTOH, The nation wasn't told to pray and give no physical help.

> Virtually all religions teach that some powerful being/force is acting
> as a hidden hand, guiding the events of our lives. The inescapable
> conclusion is that human beings are essentially powerless to shape our
> future.


Wrong. Most religions allow fror free will.

> The key point is that religious belief provides false solutions that
> displace prudent and truly effective solutions from being implemented,


.... No. You are making this an either/or argument. It doesn't have to
be either/or.

> The obvious religious evils aside,


There are plenty of non-religious evils, too. For example, the way
Stalin allowed millions of Russians to die simply because their
existance was counter to his five year plans.

Brandon
 
lorad474@cs.com wrote in news:687679cd-b0ca-461c-8b0c-528d242f99b6
@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

>
>
>> The key point is that religious belief provides false solutions that
>> displace prudent and truly effective solutions from being implemented,
>> or from even being invented in the first place.

>
> False. Find something wrong with the Ten Commandments.



Start with the enforcement provisions.


"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day
shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD .
Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."
Exodus 35:2.
 
> Find something wrong with the Ten Commandments.
>

Here's what's wrong with one.

Jehovah demands in Deuteronomy Chap. 5, "You should have no other
gods before me."

This rejects all other beliefs, crossing Constitutional principles
of religious freedom. What's more, it also puts to rest any Christian
notions of "free will".
 
On Jan 15, 10:06 am, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tomgram: Ira Chernus asks, "Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"
>
> By Tom Engelhardt
>
> Created Jan 14 2008 - 9:13am
>
> - from TomDispatch [1]
>

<snip>

Has there ever been a democracy that was not religious?
Can you name one?
 
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"



V:

No, Atheism is.

Atheism is one of the world's least tolerant religions.

As a group, I'd say the Muslims are the sickest religious group there
is, but at least most Muslims allow for freedom of religion.

Really most people have no problems with Christians, Atheists or
Muslims. The problem arise when the Christians, Atheists or Muslims
become too militant or extreme or out of balance.

The moderate theist accepts a moderate atheist, just as a moderate
atheist accepts a moderate theist.

It is out of balance, extreme views that sets one apart.

Problems within society do not come from Muslims...the problems come
from extreme Muslims.

Same with all the rest whether Christian or Atheist...seek
balance...seek inner peace within and with all.

Ken Humphreys talks about 'getting high' on religion. We can also get
high on hatred and other emotions, so there are many areas to look out
for when the subject turns to balanced living.

Many people gravitate towards extreme views since this works magic on
blinding them from the pain in their lives.

A few years ago I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about a
con man named Charles Ponzi. He was credited with inventing the first
pyramid scheme.

The article stated when Ponzi was interviewed he was asked how he was
able to swindle so many people so easily, his responded, "When a man's
mind is concentrated he is blind."

This case of having your mind concentrated to the point of blindness
is not anything new. The ancient philosophers new this well. They
called it "putting passion before reason."

Both these areas of passion and reason where the foundation of much
philosophical discussion of ethics and virtue with the ancient Greeks.
They knew when passion rules the mind, that the only job left for
reason is that of the subservient task to find cleaver ways to satisfy
the passions.

When our minds are occupied with too much wreckage of the past, too
many problems and complexities and out of control passions then there
is little room left in it for reasoning. It is then easy to fall into
extreme thinking.






Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
Urban Homesteader
Agnostic minister of secular humanism to the mind-
manacled...spiritually sick...defiance based atheist.
AA#2
 
"Middle Class Warrior" <middle_class_warrior1@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:eek:s9jj.32650$Zo3.11866@trnddc02...
> lorad474@cs.com wrote:
>> On Jan 15, 10:06 am, "Gandalf Grey" <valino...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"

>>
>> Of course not.. that's sheer stupidity.
>>
>> The opposite is true.. all successful democracies have REQUIRED the
>> presence of religion to be successful.
>> Name one that hasn't.

>
> You need to study the French Revolution. It was very secular and
> anti-Catholic and led to democracy in France.


LOL. Very bad example. The French Revolution resulted
in savage violence and, eventually, the Napolean regime.

> The Christian religious leaders usually supported the status quo and was
> the biggest cause of the Middle Ages in Europe.


The Church merely became the center of power
during the middle ages, because of the collapse
of competing authority.

> There have been changes. Only the Fundy churches supported the Bush War in
> Iraq. Mainstream Protestant and Catholic churches did not support the Bush
> invasion of Iraq.


Cite?
 
On Jan 16, 11:45 am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
> Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"
>
> V:
>
> No, Atheism is.
>
> Atheism is one of the world's least tolerant religions.


Hey, let me try!

"The Adelie Penguin is one of the worlds smallest Elephants."

Speaking gibberish is fun! Thanks V!

Mark.
 
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:09:35 GMT, "Shrikeback" <hewpiedawg@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Middle Class Warrior" <middle_class_warrior1@verizon.net> wrote in message news:eek:s9jj.32650$Zo3.11866@trnddc02...
>> ...Only the Fundy churches supported the Bush War in
>> Iraq. Mainstream Protestant and Catholic churches did not support the Bush
>> invasion of Iraq.

>
>Cite?


Shrieker, you're an idiot of the first order, hence your bushkultism.
Quit swilling the kkkoolade and do your homework for once.

http://www.why-war.com/news/2002/10/12/iraqwarn.html
 
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