Joseph's dream & covenant people as the heavens

First I want to welcome and greet Doug who I have seen mention the

dream of Joseph with understanding. This dream of Joseph's truly is

something that must be considered as it may lead to understanding how

the spirit has spoken in the past, leading you to the discovery of

many great mysteries spoken of elsewhere.

Remember Joseph's dream in Genesis 37?

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his

brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold,

the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And

he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked

him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed?

Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down

ourselves to thee to the earth? 11 And his brethren envied him; but

his father observed the saying.

Israel (Jacob) did not need Joseph to interpret the dream. He knew

exactly what it meant, that they (Jacob and his family) would bow down

to Joseph. The eleven stars give direct reference to the eleven

brothers of Joseph. The sun, moon, and stars (the heavens) were a

direct reference to the family of Israel.

This is just one of many passages that reveal how Israel was shown and

understood the heavens and the earth as relating to covenant people of

God.

Let's look at a few examples:

Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this

day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye

go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it,

but shall utterly be destroyed.

Job 20:26 All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not

blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his

tabernacle. 27 The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth

shall rise up against him.

Now, did Moses call the physical universe to witness against the

people? What about the passage in Job? Would the physical sky reveal

iniquity? Would the physical dirt rise up against him?

Passages such as these use hyperbole and metaphor to describe

something else, something spiritual or covenantal. The Bible is full

of this type of language. Now, I'm not saying that the Bible never

uses "heaven and earth" in a physical sense. It clearly does many

times. However, there are so many passages, such as the two cited

above, which show that "heaven and earth" have a different meaning

than the physical universe, that it is at least worthy of study.

Let's look at another one:

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament

sheweth his handywork.

This verse is often sited to show how the sun, moon, and stars

(physical universe) show forth the glory of God. But take a look at

the entire passage in context and think about it again:

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament

sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto

night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where

their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the

earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a

tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his

chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going

forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of

it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Do the physical heavens "utter speech"? Do they show forth knowledge?

Notice how this passage speaks of the activities of the "heavens", and

how it refers to "them" in the third person plural (their line; their

words; in them). Who is it that declares the glory of God? This

passage is about God's people and it has clear prophetic utterances

about the New Covenant and Christ as the bridegroom. It is a

covenantal passage using covenantal language.

Now, does this mean that the physical heavens do not show forth the

glory of God? I'm not saying that at all. I believe they do. I believe

the physical heavens and earth are extremely glorious and I praise God

for them. However, the physical is not the focus in many of these

covenantal passages. God is using the imagery of the heavens to show

forth a greater truth, a spiritual truth.

So you might be thinking, where do I get this crazy idea that the

heavens and the earth represent God's people and His covenant with

them? Do you remember what God told Abraham? How he would be the

father of many nations and how his descendents would be as the stars

of the heaven and as the dust of the earth?

Genesis 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so

that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed

also be numbered.

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now

toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and

he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD;

and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of

heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the

LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy

son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in

multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and

as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess

the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of

the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

And He said to Isaac also:

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of

heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy

seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that

Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my

statutes, and my laws.

Moses remembers:

Exodus 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to

whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will

multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I

have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it

for ever.

Before they entered the Promised Land, the promise to Abraham was

fulfilled:

Deuteronomy 1:9 And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not

able to bear you myself alone: 10 The LORD your God hath multiplied

you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for

multitude.

Deuteronomy 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and

ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of

heaven for multitude.

And Nehemiah remembers:

Nehemiah 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of

heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst

promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.

God had laid the groundwork, which related the heavens to His covenant

people. He used the metaphor of stars (heaven) and dust (earth) to

describe the multitude of the seed of Abraham. Now let's look further.

When Moses is drawing near death and the people are preparing to go in

and take the Promised Land, look at how Moses addresses the people:

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against

you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That

thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his

voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and

the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the

LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to

give them.

Deuteronomy 31:28-30 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and

your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call

heaven and earth to record against them. 29 For I know that after my

death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way

which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter

days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him

to anger through the work of your hands. 30 And Moses spake in the

ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until

they were ended.

Deuteronomy 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O

earth, the words of my mouth.

Moses addressed the people of God as the heavens and the earth. The

physical heavens and earth do not have ears. He is speaking to Israel.

Israel was God's heaven and earth. They were His covenant people. We

will come back to this, but first let's see if we find examples of

this language with reference to the beginning, or the original

creation.

Here is a passage from Zechariah, who is clearly alluding to the

creation account in Genesis:

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith

the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the

foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Compare with this creation passage:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and

breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living

soul.

Notice what is happening here. It is subtle, but when God creates the

first man He joins earth (dust of the ground) with heaven (the breath

of life) and then man becomes a living soul. Adam was partly divine,

in that he had the breath of life (the spirit of God).

This is what made him alive (covenantal life). Now let's go back even

further:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the

host of them.

This is fascinating. God declares here that the heavens and the earth

were finished, and all the host of them. The Hebrew word here for host

is tseba'ah (pronounced sa-ba). The primary meaning of this word is

"mass of persons, especially organized for war." So even here in

Genesis 2 we are seeing how God calls the heavens and the earth a mass

of persons.

Here is one cross-reference to consider:

Exodus 6:26 these are that Aaron and Moses, to whom the LORD said,

Bring out the children of Israel from the land of Egypt according to

their armies.

The word here for "armies" is also tseba'ah. We see this word used

this way throughout the Pentateuch describing the children of Israel.

Continuing:

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth

when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth

and the heavens,

Again, we see an example of the heavens and the earth referring to

people. The Hebrew word for generations here is toledah, the primary

definition of which includes "descendants, genealogies, account of men

and their descendants, genealogical list of one's descendants."

This word is translated "generations" 37 other times in the Old

Testament, consistent with its translation here in Genesis 2. Adam was

the beginning of the genealogy of the heavens and the earth. This is

further evidence that the heavens and the earth created in Genesis 1

refer primarily to God's covenant people.

Now look at Genesis 5:

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations (toledah) of Adam. In

the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

This is a direct restatement of Genesis 2:4. It even states: "In the

day that God created man". Seeing it in this context makes it hard to

miss. Generations primarily speak of the history of people, not

inanimate objects of the universe. Now, as God continues to reveal the

covenant line, he uses similar language.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and

perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem,

Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

Genesis 11:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred

years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: Genesis 11:27

Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and

Haran; and Haran begat Lot.

Genesis 25:19 And these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son:

Abraham begat Isaac:

Genesis 37:1 And Jacob dwelt in the land wherein his father was a

stranger, in the land of Canaan. 2 These are the generations of

Jacob.

From Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, to Isaac and Jacob (Israel), this was

the genealogy of the heavens and the earth. Luke 3 shows us how this

genealogy leads to Christ. Christ promised a new heavens and a new

earth (2 Pet 3:13) where righteousness would dwell (more on this

later). Before moving on, here is another passage that shows how

Israel understood the heavens and the earth.

Remember Joseph's dream in Genesis 37?

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his

brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold,

the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And

he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked

him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed?

Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down

ourselves to thee to the earth? 11 And his brethren envied him; but

his father observed the saying.

Israel (Jacob) did not need Joseph to interpret the dream. He knew

exactly what it meant, that they (Jacob and his family) would bow down

to Joseph. The eleven stars give direct reference to the eleven

brothers of Joseph. The sun, moon, and stars (the heavens) were a

direct reference to the family of Israel.

The Heavens and the Earth in the Psalms

You may be wondering if the rest of the Bible uses similar language

concerning the heavens and the earth. I believe it does. Let's look at

some passages from the Psalms. The Psalms are very often prophetic of

the New Covenant and of Christ, and should give us more insights to

the true meaning of "heavens and earth". We've already looked at Psalm

19. Let's continue with a few others.

Psalm 69:30 I will praise the name of God with a song, and will

magnify him with thanksgiving. 31 This also shall please the LORD

better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs. 32 The humble

shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

33 For the LORD heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners. 34

Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that

moveth therein. 35 For God will save Zion, and will build the cities

of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession. 36 The

seed also of his servants shall inherit it: and they that love his

name shall dwell therein.

The passage is very clear: the heaven and earth praise Him, even the

sea and all that is in it. Now, do fish and sharks and whales praise

the Lord? Some would say YES they do. Those in the camp of rigid

literalism would argue that because God created the sea and all that

is in it that it somehow praises Him because of God's work in the

physical creation. I would agree that God's work in the physical

creation is extremely glorious and that we (His people) should praise

Him for that creation; but I do not agree that fish, sharks, whales,

dirt, rocks, skies, planets, or even galaxies praise Him.

These are all word pictures representing something else. Again, who

praises the Lord? Those who love Him and belong to Him give Him

praise. Look further at the context of the passage. It begins by

saying "I will praise the name of God with a song," so we see an

individual praising Him. Then we see the heaven and earth praising

Him. Look at the very next sentence: "For God will save Zion..." It is

Israel praising God, as He will save them. How strange would it be for

the writer of this Psalm to speak of the physical heavens, earth, and

sea praising God for the salvation of Zion (Israel)? Rather, it is

God's covenant people who praise Him for their salvation.

This next passage may remind us of the imagery of the Exodus. God led

Israel by a pillar of fire by night, and a pillar of cloud by day. His

glory was above them (above the heavens):

Psalm 113:4 The LORD is high above all nations, and his glory above

the heavens. 5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on

high, 6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven,

and in the earth!

Notice here how heaven and earth are God's servants:

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy

faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth,

and it abideth. 91 They continue this day according to thine

ordinances: for all are thy servants.

Who declares God's righteousness?

Psalm 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth,

that he may judge his people. 5 Gather my saints together unto me;

those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 6 And the

heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.

Selah.

Psalm 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people

see his glory.

Psalm 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto

a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Here are a few more examples to consider from the Psalms:

Psalm 73:8 They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression:

they speak loftily. 9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and

their tongue walketh through the earth. 10 Therefore his people return

hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.

Psalm 96:10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world

also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge

the people righteously. 11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth

be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.

Psalm 102:23 He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.

24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy

years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old hast thou laid the

foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26

They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax

old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they

shall be changed: 27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have

no end. 28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed

shall be established before thee.

It should be very apparent that these verses concerning the heavens

and the earth have much greater meaning than simply the physical

earth, sun, moon, and stars.

The Heavens and the Earth in the Prophets

In the Prophets, we see a continued use of the heavens and earth

motif. The prophets add use of even further apocalyptic language. This

language is highly metaphoric. We see the heavens and the earth in the

prophets under great judgment, and great blessing. We must ask

ourselves: do the physical heavens and the physical earth come under

judgment? Do the physical heavens and physical earth need to be

redeemed? Keep these questions in mind as we look at several passages

from the prophets.

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof

shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going

forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will

punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity;

and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low

the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious

than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of

her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his

fierce anger.

Look at the judgment of the heavens and the earth. The sun shall be

darkened and the moon shall not give her light. The heavens will be

shaken and the earth removed out of her place. Notice two things here:

The personal pronoun "her" used twice, "her light", and "her place".

God is referring to a people, not a physical world. Secondly,

sandwiched in between these verses, God proclaims that He will punish

the world for evil and the wicked for their iniquity.

Here's another example where a rigid, literal interpretation of sun,

moon, heavens, and earth makes no sense at all. The context is God's

judgment on Babylon for their iniquity. In this context, Babylon is

being shaken and removed out of her place. Here is another similar

passage of judgment on the heavens and the earth:

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the

heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall

fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig

from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold,

it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to

judgment.

And here is another passage which is prophetic of the New Covenant:

Isaiah 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my

nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment

to rest for a light of the people. 5 My righteousness is near; my

salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the

isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust. 6 Lift up

your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the

heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like

a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but

my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be

abolished.

This verse speaks of the heavens and the earth waxing old and

vanishing, but the Lord's righteousness and salvation enduring

forever. The New Testament gives more light:

Matthew 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment,

for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and

the rent is made worse.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the

foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old

as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and

they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not

fail.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days

come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house

of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first

old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It is made clear by the writer of Hebrews that the old covenant is the

heavens and earth of which the prophets spoke, which was waxing old

and was about to vanish away. The New Testament tells us that the time

was then. The darkness of the Old Covenant was waxing old and starting

to vanish, and the light of the New Covenant was beginning to shine

forth like the sun. The language is rich with metaphor and hyperbole.

However, if we consistently compare scripture with scripture we begin

to see these things come into view.

Returning to the prophets:

Isaiah also speaks much like the Psalms. We see many examples of the

heavens and the earth praising God. Also, we see examples of the

heavens and the earth as God's covenant people.

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw

concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz,

and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth:

for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children,

and they have rebelled against me.

Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye

lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O

forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and

glorified himself in Israel. 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and

he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all

things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad

the earth by myself;

Here we see God calling His people mountains as well as the heavens

and the earth:

Isaiah 49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth

into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and

will have mercy upon his afflicted.

Isaiah 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered

thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay

the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

There are many more examples of this covenant use of the heavens and

the earth in the other prophets' writings:

Jeremiah 51:48 then the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein,

shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the

north, saith the LORD

Ezekiel 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven,

and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud,

and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of

heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land,

saith the Lord GOD.

1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also

shall be stable, that it be not moved. 31 Let the heavens be glad, and

let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD

reigneth.

Look at this amazing covenant passage in Hosea. Notice the connection

between the heavens and the earth and the covenant people of God:

Hosea 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the

beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the

creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword

and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down

safely. 19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will

betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in

lovingkindness, and in mercies. 20 I will even betroth thee unto me in

faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. 21 And it shall come to

pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the

heavens, and they shall hear the earth; 22 And the earth shall hear

the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. 23

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon

her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not

my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Now let's look at another amazing passage from Jeremiah. This passage

leads us back to Genesis 1 and the creation itself:

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they

are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise

to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the

earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and

they had no light.

Notice how Jeremiah describes the foolish and silly children of

Israel, who are wise to do evil. He says that he beheld the earth, and

"it was without form, and void, and the heavens had no light." This

language describes Israel's unrighteousness. The heavens had no light

(were in darkness). This sounds eerily like Genesis 1:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the

face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the

waters.

The heavens and the earth are God's covenant people, even at the

beginning. God uses the metaphor of sky or expanse (heavens) and dust

or land (earth) to represent His people and His covenant with them,

and He does this through His inspired scribes throughout the entire

bible. Notice again how Jeremiah describes the earth mourning and the

heavens as black (in darkness):

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be

desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth

mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I

have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from

it.

Does the physical earth mourn? No. However, God's people mourn when He

comes with rebuke.

Jeremiah 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not

made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth,

and from under these heavens. 12 He hath made the earth by his power,

he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out

the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is

a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to

ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and

bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

This is difficult language, but from the context it is clear that He

speaks of His people and their calamity, thus again showing how God

uses the phrase "heavens and earth" when describing what will befall

His people. What about the Minor Prophets?

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall

tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall

withdraw their shining:

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my

spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall

prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see

visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those

days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the

heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before

the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come

to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be

delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as

the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

In the New Testament, Peter preached in Acts 2 that this passage was

being fulfilled as he saw the evidence of the Holy Spirit being given.

The entire passage concerns the gospel. Included within this passage

is how God would show signs and wonders in the heaven and in the

earth. These wonders were done through Christ and the Apostles in the

land of Israel, or God's covenant economy (God's heaven and earth).

Continuing with the Minor Prophets:

Who has praise for the Lord God of Hosts but His people? The heavens

and the earth praise the Lord, and His glory covers them:

Habakkuk 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran.

Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his

praise.

Haggai 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little

while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and

the dry land; 7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all

nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the

LORD of hosts. 8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the

LORD of hosts. The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of

the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give

peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

This prophecy in Haggai refers to the destruction of the old covenant

to give place to the new (Hebrews 12:26-29). It is not referring to

the destruction of the physical planet. Notice how God references the

heavens, the earth, the sea, the dry land, and then all nations! These

are all alluding to peoples through the metaphor of the physical

creation. Continuing in Haggai:

Haggai 2:20 And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the

four and twentieth day of the month, saying, 21 Speak to Zerubbabel,

governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; 22

And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the

strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the

chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders

shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

We have seen many Old Testament scriptures pointing to the heavens and

earth being God's covenant people. But what about the new heavens and

the new earth that we see in the New Testament? The bible is one book.

It is one story. The New Testament writers took much of their language

from the Old Testament writers. So would it be any surprise to see the

new heaven and earth in the New Testament referring to God's covenant

people as well? It would not be a great surprise and in fact we do.

Let's first look at a couple of Old Testament passages which speak of

the new heavens and earth:

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and

the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye

glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I

create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will

rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping

shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will

make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and

your name remain.

It is easy to see from the above verses the covenant context of the

new heavens and the new earth. Jerusalem (synonymous here with the new

heavens and the new earth) is created a rejoicing and her people a

joy. There will be no more weeping heard in her, nor the voice of

crying. The rigid literalists have a field day with these passages.

They insist that God will remake this entire universe and planet

earth. They insist that this new universe and earth will be a physical

paradise where there will be no more death, no more pain, and no more

tears. But is this really what these verses are teaching? From the

wealth of evidence gathered above, we are compelled to conclude that

the new heavens and the new earth are covenantal just as the old

heavens and old earth were. It is speaking of the surpassing glory of

the new covenant.

The New Testament

The more I have studied the Old Testament, the more I do not like the

break between the Old and New Testaments. The New Testament is simply

a continuation of the story, the grand finale!

Many Christians could call themselves "New Testament Christians" as

they spend very little time in the Old Testament and know very little

of what it is all about. I was guilty of this myself going back about

10-12 years. The New Testament is the end of the story, but what good

is the end if we do not understand the beginning? The revelation of

God ceased for over 400 years. God was silent. However, if we look at

the end of the Old Testament, we will see that the New Testament picks

up right where it left off.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded

unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the

great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of

the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their

fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before

thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one

crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his

paths straight.

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The New Testament picks up with the prophecy of Elijah uttered by

Malachi at the end of the Old Testament. Jesus confirms for us that

John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the coming of Elijah. Why is

this so significant? It demonstrates that the Bible is one book. It is

one story. There is cohesiveness from Old to New.

Actually, the Old Covenant continued during the first century. It did

not immediately vanish when Christ went to the cross, but continued

during the writing of the New Testament (which is made clear in

Hebrews 8) until God destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70AD. It

is important to remember that the new heavens and the new earth was

not new language to the Jews in the first century. It was language

they were very familiar with from the Old Testament.

So we too must appreciate the way it was used in the Old Testament, if

we are to accurately understand its meaning in the New.

We will look at a few key verses in the New Testament. 2 Peter 3 is by

far one of the most cited passages to support differing views of

eschatology and it uses the phrase "the heavens" several times.

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in

both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye

may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy

prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and

Saviour:

Notice first how Peter encourages his readers to be mindful of the

words of the prophets. The New Testament writers taught nothing that

had not already been prophesied in Old Testament scripture (Acts

26:22). He wants them to remember that the prophets had spoken of a

new heavens and a new earth.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word

of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the

water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being

overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth,

which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire

against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Ask yourself a question: Did the flood of Noah's day destroy the

physical heavens? Whether you are a global flood advocate or a

regional flood advocate, you would have to agree that the physical

heavens were not destroyed. Yet, God calls that time "the heavens of

old" and "the world that then was" and says that it "perished". Those

"heavens" perished in the flood. Was the physical heavens and earth

destroyed? No. The flood was a judgment on people!

People are the ones who perish, not physical matter. The physical

universe and physical earth remained. So those "heavens" must have

been referring to something other than the physical sky and planet.

They were referring to a people. This people was the covenant line

which had come down from Adam through Seth and had corrupted

themselves as is stated in the first part of Genesis 6.

The "heavens and the earth which are now" also speak of a people.

After the flood, God instituted a covenant with Noah and through the

line of Shem this covenant went forth. Through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,

David, and finally culminating with Jesus Christ, the "heavens and the

earth which are now" point back to their beginnings with Noah and

Shem. God had promised Noah that He would not destroy the land again

with water or flood. Peter now tells us that the "heavens which are

now" are reserved unto the judgment of fire. If you have a preterist

understanding of the New Testament, then you will understand that the

judgment of fire spoken by Peter was imminent at the time of his

writing.

What "heavens" were judged by fire soon after Peter wrote? The Romans

in 70AD outwardly manifested this judgment in the destruction of

Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the

night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,

and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the

works that are therein shall be burned up.

Again, Peter describes the "heavens" which shall pass away. The

elements are not physical elements, but have direct reference to the

Old Covenant economy (do a study on the Greek word for "elements" and

this will become crystal clear). "The earth and the works therein"

have direct reference to the law and the failure of Israel to be

justified by the "works" of the law. The elements of the old economy

all melted in the fires of 70AD and the works of the law were burned

up when the temple was destroyed and burned to the ground ("not one

stone shall be left upon another that will not be thrown down").

So what does all this have to do with the new heavens and the new

earth? Peter is getting to that next.

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,

what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and

godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of

God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the

elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according

to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth

righteousness.

Now what promise could Peter possibly be referring to? Most agree it

is a direct reference to Isaiah 65. Let's take a look at Isaiah 65

again and compare it with Revelation 21:

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and

the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first

heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more

sea.

Notice the parallel between "and the former shall not be remembered"

and "for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." We

have to ask a question. What were the "first" heavens and the "first"

earth? Is there any other place in scripture which speaks of the

creation of a heavens and an earth other than Genesis 1? I don't think

there is. So this passing away of "the first" must be referring to the

heavens and the earth in the beginning. Preterists affirm we are in

the new heavens and the new earth and that it is a spiritual kingdom.

So what passed away, the physical heavens and earth? Preterists affirm

that what passed away was the Old Covenant (the old Jewish economy).

So it is a logical connection to see the "first" heaven and the

"first" earth of Genesis 1 as Old Covenant Israel.

Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I

create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a

joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the

voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of

crying.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming

down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her

husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the

tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they

shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their

God.4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there

shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall

there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

God will rejoice in the (new) Jerusalem and there shall be no more

weeping or crying because the former things are passed away. This is

the new covenant in Jesus Christ where God's people are no longer

under the law of sin and death which produced pain, crying, sorrow,

and spiritual death. Christ has made all things new.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make

all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true

and faithful . 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and

Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst

of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh

shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my

son.

Notice what else is going on in the new heavens and earth:

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an

old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an

hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be

accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they

shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not

build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for

as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall

long enjoy the work of their hands.

The words spoken here in Isaiah 65 are prophetic of the New Covenant.

The long life spans represent the eternal life found only under the

New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Eating the fruit of the vineyards is

symbolic of partaking of the fruit of the Vine (think new wine). Jesus

tells us in John 15 that He is the True Vine.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion

shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's

meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith

the LORD.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in

the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and

honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by

day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the

glory and honour of the nations into it.

The wolf and the lamb are not literal here as so many would try to

say, but are symbolic of the reconciliation to God of two adversarial

groups, Israel and the Gentiles. The dust being the serpent's meat is

a direct reference back to the Garden and the curse. The Lord declares

that no one (not even the serpent) will hurt or destroy in all His

holy mountain (the New Jerusalem, the New Heavens and the New Earth)

where the curse has been lifted forever. The nations will come into

her (Gentile believers) and the Kings of the Earth also (Jewish

believers) being raised up together in a holy temple in the Lord. Look

further at Revelation 21 and see how John describes the city in his

vision. The 12 gates represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12

foundations are the 12 apostles, and we know that Jesus Christ is the

Chief Cornerstone. Is this some sort of physical heavenly city? No,

the passage tells us that the New Jerusalem is the church, the Bride

of Christ:

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which

had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with

me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,

and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of

heaven from God,

The bride, the Lamb's wife is equivalent to that great city, the holy

Jerusalem. It is very clear. The New Heavens and the New Earth are

God's holy city, the Lamb's wife, the Bride, the Church of Jesus

Christ. With this in mind, wouldn't it also be reasonable to view the

first heavens and the first earth as referring to God's people, or

God's covenant? As a matter of fact, it brings a great deal of

consistency to the entire story. It also helps bring understanding to

previously difficult New Testament passages such as Luke 16:16-17:

Luke 16:16 the law and the prophets were until John: since that time

the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And

it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law

to fail.

Jesus then tells us plainly in the Olivet Discourse that heaven and

earth would soon pass away:

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not

pass away.

So again, what heaven and earth is Jesus referring to that will pass

away? We reasonably conclude that it is the same heaven and earth of

Genesis 1 and that it is covenantal. Yes, this does go against church

history, the creeds, and church tradition. But, what is our authority?

History? The creeds? What about the scriptures? All through the

scriptures we have seen verse after verse where the heavens and the

earth are something other than physical, or spatial. They are

referring to God's people, their conscience under law (guilt), and

then grace (no shame). It's a spiritual story. I'm sure what I have

written here will cause many questions and there will be many

doubters. I'll be the first to admit I don't have all the answers. All

I would ask is that you carefully consider the scriptures, and purpose

to leave behind any preconceived ideas and let the scriptures be your

guide.

In conclusion, I would like to ask several questions: What kind of

book is the Bible? What was God's main purpose in giving us the

Scriptures? Is it a science book designed to prove that God is the

creator of the universe? Or is it principally a book of covenant in

which God is revealing how He relates with mankind? In light of this

study of the heavens and the earth, I would conclude that God's word

is about covenant, and He uses the imagery of heavens and earth to

describe His relationship with His people.

__

Say it with me, please...

I pledge allegiance... to the God...of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob....

And to the kingdom... for which Christ stands... all nations... under

God...invincible... with liberty and justice for all. AMEN

__

On February 23, 2008 04:05 am, Spiritman <Spiritman@q.com> wrote:

>

>

> First I want to welcome and greet Doug who I have seen mention the

> dream of Joseph with understanding. This dream of Joseph's truly is

> something that must be considered as it may lead to understanding how

> the spirit has spoken in the past, leading you to the discovery of

> many great mysteries spoken of elsewhere.

>

>

> Remember Joseph's dream in Genesis 37?

>

>

> Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his

> brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold,

> the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And

> he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked

> him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed?

> Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down

> ourselves to thee to the earth? 11 And his brethren envied him; but

> his father observed the saying.

>

>

> Israel (Jacob) did not need Joseph to interpret the dream. He knew

> exactly what it meant, that they (Jacob and his family) would bow down

> to Joseph. The eleven stars give direct reference to the eleven

> brothers of Joseph. The sun, moon, and stars (the heavens) were a

> direct reference to the family of Israel.

More precisely, the sons of Jacob were individual stars. It is implied that

Joseph was a 12th star. Jacob identified himself with the sun, Rachel with

the moon.

>

>

> This is just one of many passages that reveal how Israel was shown and

> understood the heavens and the earth as relating to covenant people of

> God.

The earth is not in the dream of Joseph. This dream identifies individual

stars with people, and it also shows the symbolic meaning of the sun and

moon. I suggest the identification of the sun with Jacob shows it is not a

symbol of Christ or of God, but of the promises and covenants God made with

the patriarchs, which Jacob represents. The promise that all nations will

be blessed in Abraham's seed is called the gospel in the NT.

>

> Let's look at a few examples:

>

> Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this

> day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye

> go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it,

> but shall utterly be destroyed.

>

> Job 20:26 All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not

> blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his

> tabernacle. 27 The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth

> shall rise up against him.

>

> Now, did Moses call the physical universe to witness against the

> people?

Why does it have to exclude God and the holy angels, that are supposed to be

in heaven? To swear by heaven is to swear by God's throne, Jesus said, Matt

5:34. And to swear by the earth is to swear by God's footstool, Matt 5:35.

> What about the passage in Job? Would the physical sky reveal

> iniquity? Would the physical dirt rise up against him?

Maybe it is God who will reveal the iniquity of those who Job referred to.

>

> Passages such as these use hyperbole and metaphor to describe

> something else, something spiritual or covenantal. The Bible is full

> of this type of language. Now, I'm not saying that the Bible never

> uses "heaven and earth" in a physical sense. It clearly does many

> times. However, there are so many passages, such as the two cited

> above, which show that "heaven and earth" have a different meaning

> than the physical universe, that it is at least worthy of study.

>

>

> Let's look at another one:

>

> Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament

> sheweth his handywork.

>

> This verse is often sited to show how the sun, moon, and stars

> (physical universe) show forth the glory of God. But take a look at

> the entire passage in context and think about it again:

>

> Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament

> sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto

> night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where

> their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the

> earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a

> tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his

> chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going

> forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of

> it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

>

>

> Do the physical heavens "utter speech"? Do they show forth knowledge?

Yes, it is a matter of history that careful observations of the movements of

the planets (especially the orbit of Mars) revealed to Kepler the

fundamental law of motion of the planets, which led Newton to his laws of

mechanics, along with the discoveries of Galileo and others. These were the

basis of modern science and engineering, and the advanced technology of

modern times.

By studying the motions of one of the satellites of Jupiter, Io, the speed

of light was measured in 1676, by Danish astronomer Ole Römer working at

the Paris Observatory.

> Notice how this passage speaks of the activities of the "heavens", and

> how it refers to "them" in the third person plural (their line; their

> words; in them). Who is it that declares the glory of God?

Just looking at the stars on a clear night is inspiring, and the study of

the heavens with advanced telescopes such as the Hubble space telescope has

made us aware of many wonderful things about the universe, all of which

reveals the glory of the Creator. The Psalm says that no words are

involved, and there is no air in space, so of course there is no sound.

> This

> passage is about God's people and it has clear prophetic utterances

> about the New Covenant and Christ as the bridegroom.

I think the bit about the bridegroom is a corruption, introduced in the

hellenistic age, that identifies the sun with Apollo.

> It is a

> covenantal passage using covenantal language.

>

>

> Now, does this mean that the physical heavens do not show forth the

> glory of God? I'm not saying that at all. I believe they do. I believe

> the physical heavens and earth are extremely glorious and I praise God

> for them. However, the physical is not the focus in many of these

> covenantal passages. God is using the imagery of the heavens to show

> forth a greater truth, a spiritual truth.

>

>

> So you might be thinking, where do I get this crazy idea that the

> heavens and the earth represent God's people and His covenant with

> them? Do you remember what God told Abraham? How he would be the

> father of many nations and how his descendents would be as the stars

> of the heaven and as the dust of the earth?

> Genesis 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so

> that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed

> also be numbered.

Yes, the stars can represent the descendants of Abraham, who in the NT are

identified with those who have faith in Christ.

>

>

> Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now

> toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and

> he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD;

> and he counted it to him for righteousness.

>

> Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of

> heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the

> LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy

> son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in

> multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and

> as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess

> the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of

> the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

>

>

>

> And He said to Isaac also:

>

> Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of

> heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy

> seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that

> Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my

> statutes, and my laws.

>

>

> Moses remembers:

>

> Exodus 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to

> whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will

> multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I

> have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it

> for ever.

>

> Before they entered the Promised Land, the promise to Abraham was

> fulfilled:

>

> Deuteronomy 1:9 And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not

> able to bear you myself alone: 10 The LORD your God hath multiplied

> you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for

> multitude.

>

> Deuteronomy 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and

> ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of

> heaven for multitude.

>

>

> And Nehemiah remembers:

>

> Nehemiah 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of

> heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst

> promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.

>

>

> God had laid the groundwork, which related the heavens to His covenant

> people. He used the metaphor of stars (heaven) and dust (earth) to

> describe the multitude of the seed of Abraham.

Exactly. The seed of Abraham means those who have faith in Christ, as Paul

explains.

Galatians 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to

the promise.

Romans 4:13

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to

Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of

faith.

Galatians 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of

Abraham.

So it is not those who are flesh and blood descendants of Abraham, but those

who believe the gospel who are represented by the stars, and who number as

the stars of heaven, and the sand of the sea, although the prophecy was

indeed partly fulfilled in the history of the nation of Israel in a type or

shadow.

> Now let's look further.

> When Moses is drawing near death and the people are preparing to go in

> and take the Promised Land, look at how Moses addresses the people:

>

>

> Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against

> you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

"Heaven and earth" don't refer to the Israelites here, but to those in

heaven and those in the earth, that is God, the angels, and the people.

> therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That

> thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his

> voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and

> the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the

> LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to

> give them.

>

> Deuteronomy 31:28-30 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and

> your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call

> heaven and earth to record against them. 29 For I know that after my

> death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way

> which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter

> days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him

> to anger through the work of your hands. 30 And Moses spake in the

> ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until

> they were ended.

>

> Deuteronomy 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O

> earth, the words of my mouth.

>

> Moses addressed the people of God as the heavens and the earth.

I disagree, he addresses those who are in heaven, that is God, and the holy

angels, and those in the earth, that is the people in the earth.

> The

> physical heavens and earth do not have ears. He is speaking to Israel.

> Israel was God's heaven and earth.

Heaven and earth simply means what we would call the universe. To say it

means Israel and especially Israel of the OT is misleading, and contradicts

plain teachings of the NT where the seed of Abraham are those who believe

in Christ. Of course the Israelites of the OT are included in "Heaven and

earth" but so are all the rest of humanity and all the fish, birds and

animals and insects as well.

> They were His covenant people. We

> will come back to this, but first let's see if we find examples of

> this language with reference to the beginning, or the original

> creation.

Well, the NT teaches that it is those who believe in Christ who are the seed

of Abraham, and who inherit the promises. They are the people who are

represented by stars in the prophecy of John in Revelation 12. The 12 stars

at the woman's head are the Apostles, the stars that fall to the earth,

drawn by the tail of the dragon, are believers who lose their faith and

return to the world.

<snip>

>

> Notice here how heaven and earth are God's servants:

>

> Psalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy

> faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth,

> and it abideth. 91 They continue this day according to thine

> ordinances: for all are thy servants.

I don't see that this helps you make your point. God's word is established

forever, in heaven, because that is where God is. God's throne is heaven.

>

> Who declares God's righteousness?

>

> Psalm 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth,

> that he may judge his people. 5 Gather my saints together unto me;

> those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 6 And the

> heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.

> Selah.

>

> Psalm 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people

> see his glory.

The ancient philosophers thought the heavens revolved around the earth. They

supposed that the stars were set in a rigid spherical shell called Olympus,

that went around the earth every day, and that the planets revolved around

the earth on other spheres inside the starry sphere. This has all been

shown to be false, and that old system has been abolished. This indeed

declares God's righteousness, as it shows the pagan Gods were non existent.

Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, Artemis, Hades, Poseidon and the rest are all

discredited, as they were associated with that old cosmology. This reveals

God's glory to man, especially as the scientific revolution was foretold in

the scriptures.

<snip>

> Here's another example where a rigid, literal interpretation of sun,

> moon, heavens, and earth makes no sense at all. The context is God's

> judgment on Babylon for their iniquity. In this context, Babylon is

> being shaken and removed out of her place. Here is another similar

> passage of judgment on the heavens and the earth:

>

>

> Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the

> heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:

This is a prophecy that foretold the demise of the old geocentric cosmology

of the ancient world. The Greek philosophers thought the heavens revolved

around the earth once a day. This supposed motion of the heavens suddenly

ceased, when the diurnal motion was attributed to the earth. So that was

when the heavens were rolled together as a scroll, as when a scroll is

rolled together, the rotation of the spindles comes to an abrupt stop. No

one believes the heavens revolve around the earth any more, so Isaiah's

prophecy was fulfilled by the scientific revolution.

> and all their host shall

> fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig

> from the fig tree.

Newton said that the heavenly bodies all fall towards one another, and this

is called the principle of universal gravitation. He compared the moon's

falling towards the earth to the fall of an apple. Thousands of years

before Newton, Isaiah said the heavenly bodies fall like figs. It is an

amazing prophecy about the discovery of the law of universal gravitation!

> 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold,

> it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to

> judgment.

>

Actually the ones who were judged during the scientific revolution were the

religious authorities who opposed Galileo, and the established church,

which supported the old geocentric cosmology.

>

> And here is another passage which is prophetic of the New Covenant:

>

>

> Isaiah 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my

> nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment

> to rest for a light of the people. 5 My righteousness is near; my

> salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the

> isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust. 6 Lift up

> your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the

> heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like

> a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but

> my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be

> abolished.

>

>

> This verse speaks of the heavens and the earth waxing old and

> vanishing, but the Lord's righteousness and salvation enduring

> forever. The New Testament gives more light:

>

>

> Matthew 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment,

> for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and

> the rent is made worse.

>

> Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the

> foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

> 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old

> as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and

> they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not

> fail.

>

> Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days

> come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house

> of Israel and with the house of Judah:

>

> Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first

> old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

>

> It is made clear by the writer of Hebrews that the old covenant is the

> heavens and earth of which the prophets spoke, which was waxing old

> and was about to vanish away.

I don't think that is what is being said in Hebrews. The heavens become old

like a garment, as eventually even the sun will burn out. Astronomers speak

of old stars, and new ones. There are lots of things that become old.

Just because different things wear out like a garment, does not equate one

of them to the other. My computer becomes old and wears out, and my car

wears out. So, does that mean computer = car? No, of course not! So it is

the same in Hebrews. There was an old covenant, that included circumcision

and the ritual sacrifices, that was a "shadow" or type of the new covenant.

The first one had become old and obsolete, once Christ had died and was

raised again. This does not equate the old covenant with the heavens any

more than a car equates to a computer simply because both tend to wear out.

> The New Testament tells us that the time

> was then. The darkness of the Old Covenant was waxing old and starting

> to vanish, and the light of the New Covenant was beginning to shine

> forth like the sun. The language is rich with metaphor and hyperbole.

> However, if we consistently compare scripture with scripture we begin

> to see these things come into view.

One would be making a big mistake to suppose that the heavens represent the

old covenant, or the people of Israel, in the language of prophecy.

>

> Returning to the prophets:

>

>

> Isaiah also speaks much like the Psalms. We see many examples of the

> heavens and the earth praising God.

Of course, everything in the heavens is orderly in the sense that the laws

of mechanics, chemistry, physics etc., that God has made, control all

matter.

<snip>

>

> The heavens and the earth are God's covenant people, even at the

> beginning. God uses the metaphor of sky or expanse (heavens) and dust

> or land (earth) to represent His people and His covenant with them,

> and He does this through His inspired scribes throughout the entire

> bible. Notice again how Jeremiah describes the earth mourning and the

> heavens as black (in darkness):

>

>

> Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be

> desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth

> mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I

> have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from

> it.

>

>

> Does the physical earth mourn? No. However, God's people mourn when He

> comes with rebuke.

Looking at the context:

Jeremiah 4:20

Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled:

suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

Jeremiah 4:21

How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

Jeremiah 4:22

For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children,

and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good

they have no knowledge.

Jeremiah 4:23

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens,

and they had no light.

Verse 22 refers to God's people as destroyed, having no knowledge of God. It

could certainly apply to many Christians today!

We live in an age when people are indeed "wise to do evil". And the lack of

light in the heavens can picture ignorance and foolishness of the saints,

who are identified with stars, and their inability to provide the light of

the gospel that the world needs. The sun is darkened, as the gospel is

obscured by false teachings. As a result, the earth, (which pictures the

world, and the people in it) mourns and there is a lot of trouble, war, and

grief.

<snip>

> We will look at a few key verses in the New Testament. 2 Peter 3 is by

> far one of the most cited passages to support differing views of

> eschatology and it uses the phrase "the heavens" several times.

>

> 2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in

> both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye

> may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy

> prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and

> Saviour:

>

>

> Notice first how Peter encourages his readers to be mindful of the

> words of the prophets. The New Testament writers taught nothing that

> had not already been prophesied in Old Testament scripture (Acts

> 26:22). He wants them to remember that the prophets had spoken of a

> new heavens and a new earth.

>

> 2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word

> of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the

> water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being

> overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth,

> which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire

> against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

>

>

> Ask yourself a question: Did the flood of Noah's day destroy the

> physical heavens?

Peter does not say the heavens were destroyed here. He says "by the word of

God the heavens were of old", referring to their creation. The first verse

of Genesis 1 says the heavens the earth were created by God in the

beginning. Peter says that by the word of God the earth was

formed "standing out of the water and in the water" which refers to events

of days 2 and 3 of the creation week. On day 2, God created the 'raqia'

which is translated "firmament" in the KJV, and it was made "in the midst

of the waters." This was the earth's rocky crust. Then on day 3 it emerged

from the primeval waters, forming land and sea. The Jews corrupted this

part of the creation account by adding "And God called the firmament

Heaven" in order to identify the 'raqia' with the rigid heaven of the

geocentric cosmology that was developed by the Greek philosophers. Peter

was aware of this deliberate fraud and says they were "willingly ignorant"

of the creation of the earth and the subterranean waters which gave rise to

the flood. He may have seen some old copies of the Genesis account before

it was corrupted.

There is evidence in the Dead Sea Scrolls that the word 'raqia' indeed

referred to the earth, before the corruption of the Genesis account that

occurred in the hellenistic age. One of the 'Thanksgiving Hymns', Psalm 6

[1QH col 3:31], refers to the earth's crust as 'raqia' in a passage that

describes a fiery conflagration, that destroys the trees, the streams, the

dust of the earth, the foundations of the mountains, and even the souls of

those in the abyss, or the underworld! The phrase containing the word

is: "it devoureth the foundations of clay and the surface ('raqia') of the

dry land".

Obviously the Jew who wrote this thought the 'raqia' referred to the earth,

rather than the rigid sphere of heaven.

> Whether you are a global flood advocate or a

> regional flood advocate, you would have to agree that the physical

> heavens were not destroyed. Yet, God calls that time "the heavens of

> old" and "the world that then was" and says that it "perished". Those

> "heavens" perished in the flood.

Peter does not say that. He says "the world that then was, being overflowed

with water, perished". He does not say that the heavens perished. Of course

it was only the earth that was flooded.

> Was the physical heavens and earth

> destroyed? No. The flood was a judgment on people!

The earth's surface was destroyed by the flood, Peter says, and it occurred

by means of the subterranean waters. These were the primeval waters from

the earth's interior, that burst forth when the fountains of the deep were

broken up.

Job 38:8

Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued

out of the womb?

>

> People are the ones who perish, not physical matter. The physical

> universe and physical earth remained. So those "heavens" must have

> been referring to something other than the physical sky and planet.

Again, you misinterpret or misread Peter, if you think he is saying the

heavens perished in the flood; he says the "world that then was" perished

because it was overflowed with water.

> They were referring to a people. This people was the covenant line

> which had come down from Adam through Seth and had corrupted

> themselves as is stated in the first part of Genesis 6.

>

> The "heavens and the earth which are now" also speak of a people.

> After the flood, God instituted a covenant with Noah and through the

> line of Shem this covenant went forth. Through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,

> David, and finally culminating with Jesus Christ, the "heavens and the

> earth which are now" point back to their beginnings with Noah and

> Shem. God had promised Noah that He would not destroy the land again

> with water or flood. Peter now tells us that the "heavens which are

> now" are reserved unto the judgment of fire. If you have a preterist

> understanding of the New Testament, then you will understand that the

> judgment of fire spoken by Peter was imminent at the time of his

> writing.

The heavens in the time of Peter were viewed as a system of spheres

revolving around the earth. The outermost sphere was Olympus, and the stars

were attached to its inside surface, in that cosmology. The inner spheres

carried around the sun, moon and planets. According to Aristotle, there

were 57 spheres in total. Others had different figures. Eventually the old

cosmology was simplified to 8, 9 or 10 spheres. This is the "heavens" that

were consumed by fire, actually by careful scientific scrutiny, as Peter

foretold. The old heavens have been completely demolished. Peter foretold

the rise of modern science. This was not referring to the judgement of the

Jews, as Preterists say.

>

> What "heavens" were judged by fire soon after Peter wrote? The Romans

> in 70AD outwardly manifested this judgment in the destruction of

> Jerusalem.

The Jews are not represented by the heavens, so Peter did not refer to the

destruction of the Jewish nation when he said the heavens would pass away.

And notice that he said it would occur with "great noise". The "noise" is

the rise of scepticism and atheism since the scientific revolution, and the

widespread abandonment of the Christian religion and belief in the Bible.

This arose as a consequence of the Church's defence of the old geocentric

system of cosmology. They failed to understand that the cosmology of the OT

had been corrupted in the hellenistic age, as foretold in Daniel's prophecy

of the little horn in Daniel 8.

The Bible was discredited because of the corruptions that supported the old

cosmology, and identified the 'raqia' or firmament with heaven. The

corruptions include the story of Joshua commanding the sun to stand still.

It is not genuine, and Joshua is not mentioned among the heroes of faith in

Hebrews 11, not is that story mentioned in the NT.

>

> 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the

> night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,

This already occurred, when the old cosmology was overthrown, and the

prophecy shows that the "day of the Lord" has already begun. It comes as a

thief, as no one noticed that the scientific revolution fulfilled Peter's

prophecy.

> and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the

> works that are therein shall be burned up.

Scientific investigation has resulted in the development of modern chemistry

and so the "elements" of the ancient world, fire, air, water and earth, are

seldom even mentioned any more.

>

>

> Again, Peter describes the "heavens" which shall pass away. The

> elements are not physical elements, but have direct reference to the

> Old Covenant economy

I think Preterists misunderstand this.

> (do a study on the Greek word for "elements" and

> this will become crystal clear). "The earth and the works therein"

> have direct reference to the law and the failure of Israel to be

> justified by the "works" of the law. The elements of the old economy

> all melted in the fires of 70AD and the works of the law were burned

> up when the temple was destroyed and burned to the ground ("not one

> stone shall be left upon another that will not be thrown down").

How did that affect the law? The temple is what was burned to the ground.

The law existed before the temple was built. Did the law pass away when

Solomon's temple was destroyed? No, of course not! So the destruction of

Jerusalem and its temple did not destroy the law. The Romans destroyed the

building that Herod had constructed.

>

> So what does all this have to do with the new heavens and the new

> earth? Peter is getting to that next.

>

>

> 2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,

> what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and

> godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of

> God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the

> elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according

> to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth

> righteousness.

>

>

> Now what promise could Peter possibly be referring to? Most agree it

> is a direct reference to Isaiah 65. Let's take a look at Isaiah 65

> again and compare it with Revelation 21:

>

>

> Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and

> the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

>

> Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first

> heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more

> sea.

>

>

> Notice the parallel between "and the former shall not be remembered"

> and "for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." We

> have to ask a question. What were the "first" heavens and the "first"

> earth? Is there any other place in scripture which speaks of the

> creation of a heavens and an earth other than Genesis 1? I don't think

> there is. So this passing away of "the first" must be referring to the

> heavens and the earth in the beginning. Preterists affirm we are in

> the new heavens and the new earth and that it is a spiritual kingdom.

Why?

> So what passed away, the physical heavens and earth? Preterists affirm

> that what passed away was the Old Covenant (the old Jewish economy).

Those who are in Christ are dead to the law. Paul said, "For I through the

law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." [Galatians 2:19]

And sacrifices and oblations have ceased, as was foretold by Daniel. [Dan

9:27] This was the result of the destruction of the temple.

> So it is a logical connection to see the "first" heaven and the

> "first" earth of Genesis 1 as Old Covenant Israel.

That is incorrect, and there is no scripture that clearly identifies heaven

and earth with Old Covenant Israel.

<snip>

>

> The bride, the Lamb's wife is equivalent to that great city, the holy

> Jerusalem. It is very clear. The New Heavens and the New Earth are

> God's holy city, the Lamb's wife, the Bride, the Church of Jesus

> Christ.

It doesn't say that. The holy city is in heaven, as the saints are those who

are in Christ, and so are said to be seated with him in heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6. The holy city comes down out of heaven, and then God dwells

with men, Rev 21:2.

> With this in mind, wouldn't it also be reasonable to view the

> first heavens and the first earth as referring to God's people, or

> God's covenant?

No, sorry, it is not reasonable at all! The prophet Jeremiah complained

because God's people were foolish and had no knowledge. This certainly

applies to Preterists, and to Dispensationalists!

> As a matter of fact, it brings a great deal of

> consistency to the entire story. It also helps bring understanding to

> previously difficult New Testament passages such as Luke 16:16-17:

>

>

> Luke 16:16 the law and the prophets were until John: since that time

> the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And

> it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law

> to fail.

>

> Jesus then tells us plainly in the Olivet Discourse that heaven and

> earth would soon pass away:

>

> Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not

> pass away.

He does not say "soon". The universe eventually runs down, by the laws of

physics. Energy is dispersed, stars burn themselves out. The words of Jesus

have not passed away. They never will.

>

> So again, what heaven and earth is Jesus referring to that will pass

> away?

Obviously he means the visible heaven and earth.

> We reasonably conclude that it is the same heaven and earth of

> Genesis 1 and that it is covenantal.

Sorry, but it is not very reasonable at all, IMO!

> Yes, this does go against church

> history, the creeds, and church tradition. But, what is our authority?

> History? The creeds? What about the scriptures? All through the

> scriptures we have seen verse after verse where the heavens and the

> earth are something other than physical, or spatial. They are

> referring to God's people, their conscience under law (guilt), and

> then grace (no shame). It's a spiritual story. I'm sure what I have

> written here will cause many questions and there will be many

> doubters. I'll be the first to admit I don't have all the answers. All

> I would ask is that you carefully consider the scriptures, and purpose

> to leave behind any preconceived ideas and let the scriptures be your

> guide.

>

>

> In conclusion, I would like to ask several questions: What kind of

> book is the Bible? What was God's main purpose in giving us the

> Scriptures? Is it a science book designed to prove that God is the

> creator of the universe? Or is it principally a book of covenant in

> which God is revealing how He relates with mankind? In light of this

> study of the heavens and the earth, I would conclude that God's word

> is about covenant, and He uses the imagery of heavens and earth to

> describe His relationship with His people.

>

God uses the imagery of heaven as his throne, and it is the universe, that

he intends to share with us, when we receive our new glorified bodies. The

heavens are the dwelling of God. The earth is called God's footstool. This

is where man is. It is our home, and it is the environment that suits us

humans. Yet God rules even in the earth, and especially among the saints,

those who submit to him.

Doug

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/

On Feb 6, 10:50 pm, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:

> ---

>

> What About The Jews?

> by David Elvery

>

> (Romans 11)

>

> When we read the bible, we often see it as two sections.

SPV......Hi David Elvery, I am just a guy that seems to

know a few things that you are not aware of. One is that the Ego re-

writes the Bible all the time and in the 13th century they took out

all Jesus said about reincarnation. Such a book then is not divine

but bullshit. It has be doctored to fit the greedy needs of the Pope.

Now of course you can see the same thing in "Jesus died for our

sins." That is obviously wrong because we still have sins so are you

saying that Jesus was ineffectual? Are you saying that God is

ineffectual? No, you and those with ego twisted the words. "Jesus

died because of our sins not for them." Jesus was killed because we

were jealous of him and what he attained. Now you Christians would

have us believe that Jesus was sent to die for humanity? You mean

that Jesus was without free will? Are you saying he is less than

human and had no free will and thus he had no choice but to climb that

cross? Are you saying Jesus was really less than human because God

gave humanity free will and this was denied Jesus?

An idiot can wade through the Bible and show you error after error of

belief. When you belief is gone then maybe something can be done with

you but belief is a buffer of bullshit to make it sound all nice and

sweet and paliable.

"Spiritman" <Spiritman@q.com> wrote in message

news:23000411-f9ac-4f6f-b33f-f958c6688d9c@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

>

>

> First I want to welcome and greet Doug...

Of course. You're two peas of the same pod: You're both totally clueless as

to what you're talking about.

Ike

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:19:21 GMT,

in article <J1fwj.1854$RQ3.1461@trndny05>,

"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net>

wrote:

>"Spiritman" <Spiritman@q.com> wrote in message

>news:23000411-f9ac-4f6f-b33f-f958c6688d9c@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

>>

>>

>> First I want to welcome and greet Doug...

>

>Of course. You're two peas of the same pod: You're both totally clueless as

>to what you're talking about.

>

>Ike

>

Although I wouldn't go so far as to say "totally" clueless,

I'm afraid writing a book hasn't distinguished you or Glenn.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:05:46 -0800 (PST), Spiritman <Spiritman@q.com>

wrote:

>Say it with me, please...

You mean Shaqad?

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:19:21 GMT, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

<xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote:

>Of course. You're two peas of the same pod: You're both totally clueless as

>to what you're talking about.

>

>Ike

Let me guess, you live in a typical American trailer park subdivision.

You go to USA school Church, and think America is God's chosen people.

You got attitudes that you're ok, and all other people are screwballs.

"Qadosh Stephanos" <qadosh.stephanos@yahoo.ca> wrote in message

news:9d73s3l45r1pcjlvbtkaqssspsm0cogd6q@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:19:21 GMT, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

> <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote:

>

>>Of course. You're two peas of the same pod: You're both totally clueless

>>as

>>to what you're talking about.

>>

>>Ike

>

> Let me guess, you live in a typical American trailer park subdivision.

>

> You go to USA school Church, and think America is God's chosen people.

There you go again, off on some wild irrelevant fixation tangent that no one

but you understands, as it is only in your mind.

> You got attitudes that you're ok, and all other people are screwballs.

My attitude is just fine, as you ARE a screwball.

Ike

"Qadosh Stephanos" <qadosh.stephanos@yahoo.ca> wrote in message

news:9d73s3l45r1pcjlvbtkaqssspsm0cogd6q@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:19:21 GMT, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

> <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote:

>

>>Of course. You're two peas of the same pod: You're both totally clueless

>>as

>>to what you're talking about.

>>

>>Ike

>

> Let me guess, you live in a typical American trailer park subdivision.

>

> You go to USA school Church, and think America is God's chosen people.

There you go again, off on some wild irrelevant fixation tangent that no one

but you understands, as it is only in your mind.

> You got attitudes that you're ok, and all other people are screwballs.

My attitude is just fine, as you ARE a screwball.

Ike

"Qadosh Stephanos" <qadosh.stephanos@yahoo.ca> wrote in message

news:9d73s3l45r1pcjlvbtkaqssspsm0cogd6q@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:19:21 GMT, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

> <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote:

>

>>Of course. You're two peas of the same pod: You're both totally clueless

>>as

>>to what you're talking about.

>>

>>Ike

>

> Let me guess, you live in a typical American trailer park subdivision.

>

> You go to USA school Church, and think America is God's chosen people.

There you go again, off on some wild irrelevant fixation tangent that no one

but you understands, as it is only in your mind.

> You got attitudes that you're ok, and all other people are screwballs.

My attitude is just fine, as you ARE a screwball.

Ike