On Not Forgetting New Orleans

G

Gandalf Grey

Guest
Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans


By Tom Engelhardt
Created Mar 16 2007 - 10:03am


- from Tomdispatch [1]

[Note to Tomdispatch readers: A small addition to my Tuesday post [2], "A
Journalist Writing Bloody Murder... And No One Notices": With a little help,
I finally came across a single newspaper editorial on Seymour Hersh's New
Yorker piece, "The Redirection." It appeared in Alabama's Decatur Daily
under the headline [3], "Unintended Consequence: U.S. Funding Radical
Islam." If anyone has seen a similar editorial anywhere, please write me. If
you feel in the mood to be grimly amused, check out a small piece I posted
[4] at the Nation Magazine's The Notion blog, "An Ambassador, An Iraqi, and
a Penguin."]

So Halliburton is leaving [5] the neighborhood. If I were you, I'd start
selling. It's a sign that property values are heading down in looted and
Katrina-tized America. With full protestations that it really isn't going
anywhere, Halliburton, with its $19 billion [6] in Pentagon contracts, with
its $2.7 billion [7] in estimated Iraq overcharges, is moving its
headquarters to Dubai [8], the Las Vegas of the Middle East where almost
anyone is welcome to plot almost anything on the indoor ski slopes [9] or
private mini-islands [10]. If I were the head of Halliburton, I'd be heading
for Dubai, too, or at least for parts unknown while the Bush administration
is still in office and I still had a roof over my head. Enron's Ken Lay
could have taken a tip or two from Halliburton Chief Executive David Lesar
on the subject. Far too late now, of course. And I wonder whether Al Neffgen
[11], the ex-Halliburton exec running the privatized company, IAP Worldwide
Services, that was put in charge of Walter Reed Army Medical Center in 2006
as part of the privatization of the military, might be considering a holiday
there as well. No mold, no rats (other than the human kind), just honest sun
and sand, surf and turf, oil money and. well, everything that goes with it.

We always knew that there was a link between Iraq, hit by a purely
human-made flood of catastrophe, and Katrina, which had a helping hand from
nature. Halliburton had a hand in both, of course, picking up some of the
earliest contracts for the "reconstruction" [12] of each -- the results of
which are now obvious to all (even undoubtedly from Dubai). The inability of
either the Bush administration or its chronically cost-overrun crony
corporations to genuinely reconstruct anything is now common knowledge. But
it's worth remembering that, though the disaster of Iraq's "reconstruction"
preceded it, Hurricane Katrina was the Brownie-heck-of-a-job moment that
revealed the reality of the Bush administration to most Americans.

The various privatization-style lootings and catastrophes since then have
all been clearer for that. Katrina, in fact, has become a catch-word for
them. So when the Bush administration's treatment of the wounded -- though
reported [13] well beforehand -- suddenly became the headline du jour, it
was also a Katrina-comparison scandal. ("Dems [14] Call Walter Reed Scandal
'Katrina of 2007";"The Katrina [15] of Veteran's Care"; "Like Brownie [16]
in Katrina, Rummy did 'a heckuva job.' So has Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley, Army
surgeon general, who commanded Walter Reed from 2002 to 2004.")

As Rebecca Solnit so eloquently reminds us below, however, Katrina isn't
simply some comparison point from the past, a piece of horrific history to
keep in mind; it's an on-going, never-ending demonstration that we have been
changed from a can-do to a can't-do society (except perhaps at the
neighborhood level). Katrina, the hurricane, was then; Katrina, the New
Orleans catastrophe, is right now and, given what we know about government
today, that "right now" is likely to stretch into the interminable future.
Solnit is Tomdispatch's ray [17] of hope (and the author of the remarkable
book Hope in the Dark [18]), but also the writer who deals with the largest
[19] of disasters. And here she is, as always not to be missed. -- Tom



Unstable Foundations: Letter from New Orleans

Rebecca Solnit

Riflemen and Rescuers

On March 5, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama went south to compete for the
limelight on the 42nd anniversary of "Bloody Sunday," the day in March 1965
when Alabama law enforcement drove Civil Rights demonstrators off the Edmund
Pettus Bridge and back into Selma. Somehow, the far larger and more
desperate attempt of a largely African-American population to march across a
bridge less than two years ago, during the days after Hurricane Katrina, and
the even more vicious response, has never quite entered the mainstream
imagination. Few outside New Orleans, therefore, understand that the city
became a prison in the days after 80% of it was flooded (nor has it fully
sunk in that the city was flooded not by a hurricane but by the failure of
levees inadequately built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers).

According to a little-noted Los Angeles Times report from that moment,
"Authorities in St. Bernard Parish, to the east, stacked cars to seal roads
from the Crescent City." Not only were relief supplies and rescuers kept out
of the city, but many who could have rescued themselves or reached outside
rescue efforts were forcibly kept in. The spectacle of the suffering and
squalor of crowds trapped without food, water, or sanitation in sweltering
heat that so transfixed the nation was not just the result of incompetence,
but of malice. While the media often tended to portray the victims as
largely criminals, government officials shifted the focus from rescue to the
protection of property and the policing of the public. There's no way to
count how many died as a result of all this.

The Mississippi-straddling Crescent City Connection Bridge was closed to
pedestrians by law enforcement from Gretna, the mostly white community
across the river. They fired their guns over the heads of women and children
seeking to flee the dire conditions of the Superdome and Convention Center,
as well as the heat and thirst of the devastated city, driving back
thousands attempting to escape their captivity in squalor. There have been
no consequences from any of these acts, though Congressional Representatives
Cynthia McKinney and John Conyers have denounced them as hate crimes and
called for investigations, and the Reverend Lennox Yearwood said, "Can you
imagine during 9/11, the thousands who fled on foot to the Brooklyn Bridge,
not because they wanted to go to Brooklyn, but because it was their only
option? What if they had been met by six or eight police cars blocking the
bridge, and cops fired warning shots to turn them back?"

During my trips to the still half-ruined city, some inhabitants have told me
that they, in turn, were told by white vigilantes of widespread murders of
black men in the chaos of the storm and flood. One local journalist assured
me that he tried to investigate the story, but found it impossible to crack.
Reporters, he said, were not allowed to inspect recovered bodies before they
were disposed of. These accounts suggest that, someday, an intrepid
investigative journalist may stand on its head the media hysteria of the
time (later quietly recanted) about African-American violence and menace in
flooded New Orleans. Certainly, the most brutal response to the catastrophe
was on the part of institutional authority at almost every level down to the
most local.

These stories are important, if only to understand what New Orleans is
recovering from -- not just physical devastation, but social fissures and
racial wounds in a situation that started as a somewhat natural disaster and
became a socially constructed catastrophe. Nothing quite like it has
happened in American history. It's important to note as well that many
racial divides were crossed that week and after -- by people who found
common cause inside the city -- by, for instance, the "Cajun Navy" of white
boat-owners who got into flooded areas to rescue scores of people.

Ex-Black Panther Malik Rahim says that he witnessed a race war beginning in
Algiers (next to Gretna) where he lived and that it was defused by the
young, white bicycle medics who came to minister to both communities; since
then the organization Rahim co-founded, Common Ground Collective [20], has
funneled more than 11,000 volunteers, mostly white, into New Orleans.

Parades and Patrols

New Orleans may have always been full of contradictions, but post-Katrina
they stand in high relief. For weeks in February, parades wound past rowdy
crowds in the uptown area as part of the long carnival season that leads up
to Mardi Gras. Since June, camouflage-clad, heavily armed National Guardsmen
have been patrolling other parts of the flood-ravaged city in military
vehicles, making the place feel as much like a war zone as a disaster
zone -- and perhaps it is. (On March 8, for instance, a Guardsman repeatedly
shot in the chest a 53-year-old African-American with mental problems. He
had brandished a BB gun at a patrol near his home, in which he had ridden
out Katrina, in the Upper Ninth Ward.) New Orleans' poverty was, and is,
constantly referenced in the national media; and the city did, and does,
have a lot of people without a lot of money, resources, health care,
education, and opportunity. But its people are peculiarly rich in networks,
roots, traditions, music, festive ritual, public life, and love of place, an
anomaly in an America where, generations ago, most of us lost what the
depleted population of New Orleans is trying to reclaim and rebuild.

I've long been interested in ruins, in cities and civil society in the wake
of disaster, and so I've been to New Orleans twice since Katrina hit and
I've tried to follow its post-catastrophe course from afar the rest of the
time. On this carnival-season visit, even my own response was contrary: I
wanted to move there and yet was appalled, even horrified, by tales of
institutional violence that people passed on to me as the unremarkable lore
of everyday life.

If New Orleans is coming back, it's because a lot of its citizens love it
passionately, from the affluent uptowners who formed Women of the Storm to
massage funding channels to the radical groups such as the People's
Hurricane Relief Fund [21] dealing with the most devastated zones.
Nationally, there have been many stories about people giving up and leaving
again because the reopened schools are still lousy and crime is soaring; the
way people are trickling back in has been far less covered.

Of a pre-storm white population of 124,000 more than 80,000 were back by
last fall, while about the same number of African-Americans had returned --
from a pre-storm population of 300,000. Though some have chosen not to
return, many are simply unable to, or are still organizing the means to do
so. Other roadblocks include the shuttering of all the housing projects in
the city, including some that sustained little or no damage in the floods. A
few have been occupied by former residents demanding the right of return.
It's little noted that not all those who are still in exile from the city
are there by choice. And while, once again, the mainstream media story of
exile has been grim -- that refugees from New Orleans have brought a crime
wave to Texas, for instance -- one longtime Austin resident assures me that
they've also brought a lot of music, public life, and good food.

I visited New Orleans 11 months ago, during Easter Week 2006, and it was
then a ghost town, spookily unpopulated, with few children among the
returnees; 10 months later, after more than 50 of its schools had reopened,
there were dozens of high-school marching bands in the pre-carnival parades.
But the bands were mostly monochromatic -- all white or all nonwhite - and
30 of the reopened schools are charter schools. Of course, in the slogan
"Bring Back New Orleans" lurks the question of how far back to bring it.
Once the wealthy banking powerhouse of the South, New Orleans had been
losing economic clout and population for decades before Katrina hit and
already seemed doomed to a slow decline.

With Katrina, no one can say what the future holds. Many fear the city will
become just a tourist attraction or that it will simply go under in the next
major hurricane. The levees and floodwalls are being rebuilt, but not to
Category 5 hurricane levels, and the fate of the Mississippi River Gulf
Outlet, the shipping shortcut that funneled the storm's surge right into New
Orleans, is still being debated. The Associated Press just reported [22]
that more than thirty of the pumps installed last year by the U.S. Army
Corps of Engineers to drain floodwater are defective. (The manufacturer is a
crony of Jeb Bush's and, like so many looters of the rebuilding funds, a
large-scale donor to the Republican Party.)

The city's major paper, the Times-Picayune, recently revealed that the maps
people have been using to represent the amount of wetlands buffer south of
the city are 75 years out of date and there are only 10 years left to save
anything of this crucially protective marsh-scape, which erodes at the rate
of 32 football fields a day.

Signs of Life in the Lower Ninth

That doesn't mean people aren't trying all over the city. It's easier,
however, to get out the power tools than to untangle the red tape
surrounding all the programs that are supposed to fund rebuilding or get
governmental agencies at any level to act like they care or are capable of
accomplishing a thing.

"Are you trying to rebuild?" I asked the woman who'd come into NENA, the
Lower Ninth Ward Neighborhood Empowerment Network Association in the part of
New Orleans most soaked by the floods Katrina caused. She politely but
firmly corrected me, "I am going to rebuild."

I ran into this kind of steely will all through my eight days exploring the
city. NENA's office in a small stucco church building in the heart of the
Lower Ninth, the neighborhood of black homeowners that sustained several
feet of water for weeks after the storm, is full of maps and charts. The
most remarkable is a map of the neighborhood itself with every home being
rebuilt marked with a green pushpin. They are lightly scattered over the
map, but there are green dots on nearly every block and clusters of them in
places, about 150 in this small neighborhood that looked as dead as anyplace
imaginable not so very long ago.

When I visited the Lower Ninth six months after Katrina, the gaping hole
where a barge had disastrously bashed through the levee above the Industrial
Canal was still there, as were the cars that had been tossed like toys
through the neighborhood when the water rushed in so violently that it tore
houses into splinters and shoved them from their foundations. The Lower
Ninth was a spooky place -- with no services, no streetlights, no
inhabitants.

That nothing had been done for six months was appalling, but so was the
scale of reconstruction required to bring the place back to life. Throughout
New Orleans, even homes that have no structural damage but were in the
heavily flooded lowlands have severe water and mold damage. Along with the
Ninth Ward, many more middle-class neighborhoods near Lake Pontchartrain
also took several feet of water and they too are now but sketchily
inhabited. Even the tacky row of condos alongside the Southern Yacht Club on
Lake Pontchartrain are still mostly wrecked, though some are being rebuilt.
Sunken pleasure boats are still in the surrounding waters and one wrecked
boat remained on the street in a devastated middle-class neighborhood
nearby.

Across from NENA's headquarters was a FEMA trailer with a wheelchair ramp in
front of one house. In front of another, right next door, a sign
spray-painted on plywood read, "NO TRESPASSING NO DEMOLITION. WE ARE COMING
BACK." And printed signs, scattered among those for demolition and building
services, bore this message in red, "Come hell and high water! Restoration,
revitalization, preservation of the Ninth Ward! Now and forever!" These
signs mean something in a neighborhood so gutted and abandoned that many of
the street signs disappeared, some of which have since been replaced by
hand-painted versions.

That people are even making their own street signs is one sign of a city
that has gotten to its feet. Or of citizens who have anyway. Failed by every
level of government from the Bush administration and its still barely
functional FEMA to the Louisiana bureaucracy with its red-tape-strangled
Road Home program to the city government, people are doing it for
themselves. NENA was founded by Patricia Jones, an accountant and Lower
Ninth homeowner spurred into action by the dire situation, and it's
co-directed by Linda Jackson, a former laundromat owner from the
neighborhood. People are doing things they might never otherwise have done,
including organizing their communities. Civic involvement is intense -- but
individual volunteers, no matter how many, from outside and local passion
can't do it all. It's been said before that New Orleans represents what the
Republicans long promised us when they spoke of shrinking government down.

The returnees, Jackson told me, are mostly doing their own rebuilding -- but
sheet-rocking and plumbing are far easier to master than the intricate
bureaucracies applicants must fight their way through to get the funds that
are supposed to be available to them. Even those who are not among New
Orleans' large population of functional illiterates, or whose lack of
electricity and money means that sending off the sequences of faxes required
to set things in motion is arduous, or who lack the phones and money to make
the endless long-distance calls to faceless strangers shuffling or losing
their information have problems getting anything done -- other than by
themselves.
Louisiana's Road Home program, for instance, is such an impenetrable
labyrinth that the Times-Picayune recently reported, "Of 108,751
applications received by the Road Home contractor, ICF International, only
782 homeowners have received final payments." Rents have risen since the
storm and home insurance is beyond reach for many of the working-class
homeowners who are rebuilding. Others can't get the homeowner's insurance
they need to get the mortgages to rebuild. In February, State Farm Insurance
simply stopped issuing new policies altogether in neighboring and no less
devastated Mississippi.

The disaster that was Katrina is often regarded as a storm, or a storm and a
flood, but in New Orelans it was a storm, a flood, and an urban crisis that
has stalled the lives of many to this day. Katrina is not even half over.

The Great Flood and the Great Divide

Volunteers have been flooding into New Orleans since shortly after the
hurricane, and they continue to come. Church youth groups arriving to do
demolition work were a staple for a while. This time around, I ran across a
big group of Mennonite carpenters, some from Canada, doing rebuilding
gratis.

Many young people -- often just out of college and more excited, as several
of them said to me, by "making a difference" than by looking for an
entry-level job -- have come to the city and many of them appear to be
staying. Some have compared the thousands of volunteers to Freedom Summer,
the 1964 African-American voter-registration drive in the South staffed in
part by college students from the North. Most of the volunteers in New
Orleans are white, and one concern I heard repeatedly is that they may
inadvertently contribute to the gentrification of traditionally black
neighborhoods such as the Upper Ninth Ward. Others see the outreach of white
activists as balm on the wounds inflicted by the racism apparent in the
media coverage of, and the militarized response to, Katrina.

The Ninth Ward symbolizes the abandonment of African-Americans by the
government in a time of dire need, and bringing it back is a way of
redressing that national shame and the racial divide that went with it. But
if it does come back, it will be residents and outside volunteers who do it.
The government is still largely missing in action -- except for the heavily
armed soldiers on patrol and the labyrinthine bureaucracies few can
navigate.

To rebuild your home, you need a neighborhood. To have a neighborhood, you
need a city. For a viable city, you need some degree of a safe environment.
For a safe environment, you need responsibility on the scale of the nation;
so, every house in New Orleans, ruined or rebuilding, poses a question about
the state of the nation. So many pieces need to be put in place: What will
climate change -- both increasingly intense hurricanes and rising seas -- do
to New Orleans? Will its economy continue to fade away? Will the individuals
who are bravely rebuilding in the most devastated areas have enough
neighbors join them to make viable neighborhoods again? Will the city
government improve itself enough to make a better place or will incompetence
continue to waltz with corruption through the years? Will the nation revise
its sense of what we owe our most significant cities (before my own city,
San Francisco, undergoes the big one) or recognize what they give us? Will
the solidarity of many anti-racist whites across the country outweigh the
racism that surfaced in Katrina and still lurks not far from the surface?

Despite its decline, New Orleans remains a port city and a major tourist
destination. But it also matters because it's beautiful, with its houses --
from shacks to mansions -- adorned with feminine, lacy-black ironwork or
white, gingerbread wood trim, with its colossal, spreading oaks and the most
poetic street names imaginable; because the city and the surrounding delta
are the great font from which so much of our popular music flows; because
people there still have a deep sense of connection and memory largely wiped
away in so many other places; because it is a capital city for black
culture, including traditions that flowed straight from Africa; because, in
some strange way, it holds the memory of what life was like before
capitalism and may yet be able to teach the rest of us something about what
life could be like after capitalism.

One of my friends in New Orleans was telling me recently about the
generosity of the city; the ways that churches and charities kept the poor
going so that poverty wasn't quite the abandoned thing it too often is
elsewhere; the way that people will cook up a feast for a whole
neighborhood; the ways the city never fully embraced the holy trinity of the
convenient, efficient, and profitable that produce such diminished versions
of what life can hold. The throws -- glittery beads, cups, toys -- from the
carnival floats are a little piece of this. Life in New Orleans is grim in
so many ways now, and all the beauty with which I end this letter coexists
with the viciousness I began with. But the recovery of the city from this
one mega-disaster could do much for the longer disaster that has so long now
been part of our national lives -- the social Darwinism, social atomization,
the shrinking of the New Deal and the Great Society and the attacks on the
very principle that we are all woven together in the fabric we call society.
If New Orleans doesn't recover, we aren't likely to either.

We all owe New Orleans and those who suffered most in Katrina a huge debt.
Their visible suffering and the visibly stupid, soulless, and selfish
response of the federal government brought an end to the unquestionable
dominance of the Bush administration in the nearly four years between New
York's great disaster and this catastrophe. In China, great earthquakes were
once thought to be signs that the mandate of heaven has been withdrawn from
the ruling dynasty. Similarly, the deluges of Katrina washed away the
mandate of the administration and made it possible, even necessary, for
those who had been blind or fearful before to criticize and oppose
afterwards.

One hundred and one years after my city was nearly destroyed by the
incompetent response of the authorities to a major earthquake, we are still
sifting out what really happened. In a hundred years, we may see Katrina as
a crisis for the belief that the civil rights movement had moved us past the
debacle on the Edmund Pettus Bridge -- and as a crisis of legitimacy for a
federal government that had done nothing but destroy for five years.

Rebecca Solnit's essay for Harper's Magazine on disaster and civil society
went to press the day Katrina struck New Orleans. She recently trained to
join San Francisco's Neighborhood Emergency Response Teams in the next big
earthquake and hopes to return to New Orleans for a more extended stay in a
few months. She is the author of Hope in the Dark [23], among other books.

Copyright 2007 Rebecca Solnit



--
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of
political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107

"A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
suffering deeply in spirit,
and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at
stake."
-Thomas Jefferson
 
On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
wrote:
> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans


Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> By Tom Engelhardt
> Created Mar 16 2007 - 10:03am
>
> - from Tomdispatch [1]
>
> [Note to Tomdispatch readers: A small addition to my Tuesday post [2], "A
> Journalist Writing Bloody Murder... And No One Notices": With a little help,
> I finally came across a single newspaper editorial on Seymour Hersh's New
> Yorker piece, "The Redirection." It appeared in Alabama's Decatur Daily
> under the headline [3], "Unintended Consequence: U.S. Funding Radical
> Islam." If anyone has seen a similar editorial anywhere, please write me. If
> you feel in the mood to be grimly amused, check out a small piece I posted
> [4] at the Nation Magazine's The Notion blog, "An Ambassador, An Iraqi, and
> a Penguin."]
>
> So Halliburton is leaving [5] the neighborhood. If I were you, I'd start
> selling. It's a sign that property values are heading down in looted and
> Katrina-tized America. With full protestations that it really isn't going
> anywhere, Halliburton, with its $19 billion [6] in Pentagon contracts, with
> its $2.7 billion [7] in estimated Iraq overcharges, is moving its
> headquarters to Dubai [8], the Las Vegas of the Middle East where almost
> anyone is welcome to plot almost anything on the indoor ski slopes [9] or
> private mini-islands [10]. If I were the head of Halliburton, I'd be heading
> for Dubai, too, or at least for parts unknown while the Bush administration
> is still in office and I still had a roof over my head. Enron's Ken Lay
> could have taken a tip or two from Halliburton Chief Executive David Lesar
> on the subject. Far too late now, of course. And I wonder whether Al Neffgen
> [11], the ex-Halliburton exec running the privatized company, IAP Worldwide
> Services, that was put in charge of Walter Reed Army Medical Center in 2006
> as part of the privatization of the military, might be considering a holiday
> there as well. No mold, no rats (other than the human kind), just honest sun
> and sand, surf and turf, oil money and. well, everything that goes with it.
>
> We always knew that there was a link between Iraq, hit by a purely
> human-made flood of catastrophe, and Katrina, which had a helping hand from
> nature. Halliburton had a hand in both, of course, picking up some of the
> earliest contracts for the "reconstruction" [12] of each -- the results of
> which are now obvious to all (even undoubtedly from Dubai). The inability of
> either the Bush administration or its chronically cost-overrun crony
> corporations to genuinely reconstruct anything is now common knowledge. But
> it's worth remembering that, though the disaster of Iraq's "reconstruction"
> preceded it, Hurricane Katrina was the Brownie-heck-of-a-job moment that
> revealed the reality of the Bush administration to most Americans.
>
> The various privatization-style lootings and catastrophes since then have
> all been clearer for that. Katrina, in fact, has become a catch-word for
> them. So when the Bush administration's treatment of the wounded -- though
> reported [13] well beforehand -- suddenly became the headline du jour, it
> was also a Katrina-comparison scandal. ("Dems [14] Call Walter Reed Scandal
> 'Katrina of 2007";"The Katrina [15] of Veteran's Care"; "Like Brownie [16]
> in Katrina, Rummy did 'a heckuva job.' So has Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley, Army
> surgeon general, who commanded Walter Reed from 2002 to 2004.")
>
> As Rebecca Solnit so eloquently reminds us below, however, Katrina isn't
> simply some comparison point from the past, a piece of horrific history to
> keep in mind; it's an on-going, never-ending demonstration that we have been
> changed from a can-do to a can't-do society (except perhaps at the
> neighborhood level). Katrina, the hurricane, was then; Katrina, the New
> Orleans catastrophe, is right now and, given what we know about government
> today, that "right now" is likely to stretch into the interminable future.
> Solnit is Tomdispatch's ray [17] of hope (and the author of the remarkable
> book Hope in the Dark [18]), but also the writer who deals with the largest
> [19] of disasters. And here she is, as always not to be missed. -- Tom
>
>
>
> Unstable Foundations: Letter from New Orleans
>
> Rebecca Solnit
>
> Riflemen and Rescuers
>
> On March 5, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama went south to compete for the
> limelight on the 42nd anniversary of "Bloody Sunday," the day in March 1965
> when Alabama law enforcement drove Civil Rights demonstrators off the Edmund
> Pettus Bridge and back into Selma. Somehow, the far larger and more
> desperate attempt of a largely African-American population to march across a
> bridge less than two years ago, during the days after Hurricane Katrina, and
> the even more vicious response, has never quite entered the mainstream
> imagination. Few outside New Orleans, therefore, understand that the city
> became a prison in the days after 80% of it was flooded (nor has it fully
> sunk in that the city was flooded not by a hurricane but by the failure of
> levees inadequately built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers).
>
> According to a little-noted Los Angeles Times report from that moment,
> "Authorities in St. Bernard Parish, to the east, stacked cars to seal roads
> from the Crescent City." Not only were relief supplies and rescuers kept out
> of the city, but many who could have rescued themselves or reached outside
> rescue efforts were forcibly kept in. The spectacle of the suffering and
> squalor of crowds trapped without food, water, or sanitation in sweltering
> heat that so transfixed the nation was not just the result of incompetence,
> but of malice. While the media often tended to portray the victims as
> largely criminals, government officials shifted the focus from rescue to the
> protection of property and the policing of the public. There's no way to
> count how many died as a result of all this.
>
> The Mississippi-straddling Crescent City Connection Bridge was closed to
> pedestrians by law enforcement from Gretna, the mostly white community
> across the river. They fired their guns over the heads of women and children
> seeking to flee the dire conditions of the Superdome and Convention Center,
> as well as the heat and thirst of the devastated city, driving back
> thousands attempting to escape their captivity in squalor. There have been
> no consequences from any of these acts, though Congressional Representatives
> Cynthia McKinney and John Conyers have denounced them as hate crimes and
> called for investigations, and the Reverend Lennox Yearwood said, "Can you
> imagine during 9/11, the thousands who fled on foot to the Brooklyn Bridge,
> not because they wanted to go to Brooklyn, but because it was their only
> option? What if they had been met by six or eight police cars blocking the
> bridge, and cops fired warning shots to turn them back?"
>
> During my trips to the still half-ruined city, some inhabitants have told me
> that they, in turn, were told by white vigilantes of widespread murders of
> black men in the chaos of the storm and flood. One local journalist assured
> me that he tried to investigate the story, but found it impossible to crack.
> Reporters, he said, were not allowed to inspect recovered bodies before they
> were disposed of. These accounts suggest that, someday, an intrepid
> investigative journalist may stand on its head the media hysteria of the
> time (later quietly recanted) about African-American violence and menace in
> flooded New Orleans. Certainly, the most brutal response to the catastrophe
> was on the part of institutional authority at almost every level down to the
> most local.
>
> These stories are important, if only to understand what New Orleans is
> recovering from -- not just physical devastation, but social fissures and
> racial wounds in a situation that started as a somewhat natural disaster and
> became a socially constructed catastrophe. Nothing quite like it has
> happened in American history. It's important to note as well that many
> racial divides were crossed that week and after -- by people who found
> common cause inside the city -- by, for instance, the "Cajun Navy" of white
> boat-owners who got into flooded areas to rescue scores of people.
>
> Ex-Black Panther Malik Rahim says that he witnessed a race war beginning in
> Algiers (next to Gretna) where he lived and that it was defused by the
> young, white bicycle medics who came to minister to both communities; since
> then the organization Rahim co-founded, Common Ground Collective [20], has
> funneled more than 11,000 volunteers, mostly white, into New Orleans.
>
> Parades and Patrols
>
> New Orleans may have always been full of contradictions, but post-Katrina
> they stand in high relief. For weeks in February, parades wound past rowdy
> crowds in the uptown area as part of the long carnival season that leads up
> to Mardi Gras. Since June, camouflage-clad, heavily armed National Guardsmen
> have been patrolling other parts of the flood-ravaged city in military
> vehicles, making the place feel as much like a war zone as a disaster
> zone -- and perhaps it is. (On March 8, for instance, a Guardsman repeatedly
> shot in the chest a 53-year-old African-American with mental problems. He
> had brandished a BB gun at a patrol near his home, in which he had ridden
> out Katrina, in the Upper Ninth Ward.) New Orleans' poverty was, and is,
> constantly referenced in the national media; and the city did, and does,
> have a lot of people without a lot of money, resources, health care,
> education, and opportunity. But its people are peculiarly rich in networks,
> roots, traditions, music, festive ritual, public life, and love of place, an
> anomaly in an America where, generations ago, most of us lost what the
> depleted population of New Orleans is trying to reclaim and rebuild.
>
> I've long been interested in ruins, in cities and civil society in the wake
> of disaster, and so I've been to New Orleans twice since Katrina hit and
> I've tried to follow its post-catastrophe course from afar the rest of the
> time. On this carnival-season visit, even my own response was contrary: I
> wanted to move there and yet was appalled, even horrified, by tales of
> institutional violence that people passed on to me as the unremarkable lore
> of everyday life.
>
> If New Orleans is coming back, it's because a lot of its citizens love it
> passionately, from the affluent uptowners who formed Women of the Storm to
> massage funding channels to the radical groups such as the People's
> Hurricane Relief Fund [21] dealing with the most devastated zones.
> Nationally, there have been many stories about people giving up and leaving
> again because the reopened schools are still lousy and crime is soaring; the
> way people are trickling back in has been far less covered.
>
> Of a pre-storm white population of 124,000 more than 80,000 were back by
> last fall, while about the same number of African-Americans had returned --
> from a pre-storm population of 300,000. Though some have chosen not to
> return, many are simply unable to, or are still organizing the means to do
> so. Other roadblocks include the shuttering of all the housing projects in
> the city, including some that sustained little or no damage in the floods. A
> few have been occupied by former residents demanding the right of return.
> It's little noted that not all those who are still in exile from the city
> are there by choice. And while, once again, the mainstream media story of
> exile has been grim -- that refugees from New Orleans have brought a crime
> wave to Texas, for instance -- one longtime Austin resident assures me that
> they've also brought a lot of music, public life, and good food.
>
> I visited New Orleans 11 months ago, during Easter Week 2006, and it was
> then a ghost town, spookily unpopulated, with few children among the
> returnees; 10 months later, after more than 50 of its schools had reopened,
> there were dozens of high-school marching bands in the pre-carnival parades.
> But the bands were mostly monochromatic -- all white or all nonwhite - and
> 30 of the reopened schools are charter schools. Of course, in the slogan
> "Bring Back New Orleans" lurks the question of how far back to bring it.
> Once the wealthy banking powerhouse of the South, New Orleans had been
> losing economic clout and population for decades before Katrina hit and
> already seemed doomed to a slow decline.
>
> With Katrina, no one can say what the future holds. Many fear the city will
> become just a tourist attraction or that it will simply go under in the next
> major hurricane. The levees and floodwalls are being rebuilt, but not to
> Category 5 hurricane levels, and the fate of the Mississippi River Gulf
> Outlet, the shipping shortcut that funneled the storm's surge right into New
> Orleans, is still being debated. The Associated Press just reported [22]
> that more than thirty of the pumps installed last year by the U.S. Army
> Corps of Engineers to drain floodwater are defective. (The manufacturer is a
> crony of Jeb Bush's and, like so many looters of the rebuilding funds, a
> large-scale donor to the Republican Party.)
>
> The city's major paper, the Times-Picayune, recently revealed that the maps
> people have been using to represent the amount of wetlands buffer south of
> the city are 75 years out of date and there are only 10 years left to save
> anything of this crucially protective marsh-scape, which erodes at the rate
> of 32 football fields a day.
>
> Signs of Life in the Lower Ninth
>
> That doesn't mean people aren't trying all over the city. It's easier,
> however, to get out the power tools than to untangle the red tape
> surrounding all the programs that are supposed to fund rebuilding or get
> governmental agencies at any level to act like they care or are capable of
> accomplishing a thing.
>
> "Are you trying to rebuild?" I asked the woman who'd come into NENA, the
> Lower Ninth Ward Neighborhood Empowerment Network Association in the part of
> New Orleans most soaked by the floods Katrina caused. She politely but
> firmly corrected me, "I am going to rebuild."
>
> I ran into this kind of steely will all through my eight days exploring the
> city. NENA's office in a small stucco church building in the heart of the
> Lower Ninth, the neighborhood of black homeowners that sustained several
> feet of water for weeks after the storm, is full of maps and charts. The
> most remarkable is a map of the neighborhood itself with every home being
> rebuilt marked with a green pushpin. They are lightly scattered over the
> map, but there are green dots on nearly every block and clusters of them in
> places, about 150 in this small neighborhood that looked as dead as anyplace
> imaginable not so very long ago.
>
> When I visited the Lower Ninth six months after Katrina, the gaping hole
> where a barge had disastrously bashed through the levee above the Industrial
> Canal was still there, as were the cars that had been tossed like toys
> through the neighborhood when the water rushed in so violently that it tore
> houses into splinters and shoved them from their foundations. The Lower
> Ninth was a spooky place -- with no services, no streetlights, no
> inhabitants.
>
> That nothing had been done for six months was appalling, but so was the
> scale of reconstruction required to bring the place back to life. Throughout
> New Orleans, even homes that have no structural damage but were in the
> heavily flooded lowlands have severe water and mold damage. Along with the
> Ninth Ward, many more middle-class neighborhoods near Lake Pontchartrain
> also took several feet of water and they too are now but sketchily
> inhabited. Even the tacky row of condos alongside the Southern Yacht Club on
> Lake Pontchartrain are still mostly wrecked, though some are being rebuilt.
> Sunken pleasure boats are still in the surrounding waters and one wrecked
> boat remained on the street in a devastated middle-class neighborhood
> nearby.
>
> Across from NENA's headquarters was a FEMA trailer with a wheelchair ramp in
> front of one house. In front of another, right next door, a sign
> spray-painted on plywood read, "NO TRESPASSING NO DEMOLITION. WE ARE COMING
> BACK." And printed signs, scattered among those for demolition and building
> services, bore this message in red, "Come hell and high water! Restoration,
> revitalization, preservation of the Ninth Ward! Now and forever!" These
> signs mean something in a neighborhood so gutted and abandoned that many of
> the street signs disappeared, some of which have since been replaced by
> hand-painted versions.
>
> That people are even making their own street signs is one sign of a city
> that has gotten to its feet. Or of citizens who have anyway. Failed by every
> level of government from the Bush administration and its still barely
> functional FEMA to the Louisiana bureaucracy with its red-tape-strangled
> Road Home program to the city government, people are doing it for
> themselves. NENA was founded by Patricia Jones, an accountant and Lower
> Ninth homeowner spurred into action by the dire situation, and it's
> co-directed by Linda Jackson, a former laundromat owner from the
> neighborhood. People are doing things they might never otherwise have done,
> including organizing their communities. Civic involvement is intense -- but
> individual volunteers, no matter how many, from outside and local passion
> can't do it all. It's been said before that New Orleans represents what the
> Republicans long promised us when they spoke of shrinking government down.
>
> The returnees, Jackson told me, are mostly doing their own rebuilding -- but
> sheet-rocking and plumbing are far easier to master than the intricate
> bureaucracies applicants must fight their way through to get the funds that
> are supposed to be available to them. Even those who are not among New
> Orleans' large population of functional illiterates, or whose lack of
> electricity and money means that sending off the sequences of faxes required
> to set things in motion is arduous, or who lack the phones and money to make
> the endless long-distance calls to faceless strangers shuffling or losing
> their information have problems getting anything done -- other than by
> themselves.
> Louisiana's Road Home program, for instance, is such an impenetrable
> labyrinth that the Times-Picayune recently reported, "Of 108,751
> applications received by the Road Home contractor, ICF International, only
> 782 homeowners have received final payments." Rents have risen since the
> storm and home insurance is beyond reach for many of the working-class
> homeowners who are rebuilding. Others can't get the homeowner's insurance
> they need to get the mortgages to rebuild. In February, State Farm Insurance
> simply stopped issuing new policies altogether in neighboring and no less
> devastated Mississippi.
>
> The disaster that was Katrina is often regarded as a storm, or a storm and a
> flood, but in New Orelans it was a storm, a flood, and an urban crisis that
> has stalled the lives of many to this day. Katrina is not even half over.
>
> The Great Flood and the Great Divide
>
> Volunteers have been flooding into New Orleans since shortly after the
> hurricane, and they continue to come. Church youth groups arriving to do
> demolition work were a staple for a while. This time around, I ran across a
> big group of Mennonite carpenters, some from Canada, doing rebuilding
> gratis.
>
> Many young people -- often just out of college and more excited, as several
> of them said to me, by "making a difference" than by looking for an
> entry-level job -- have come to the city and many of them appear to be
> staying. Some have compared the thousands of volunteers to Freedom Summer,
> the 1964 African-American voter-registration drive in the South staffed in
> part by college students from the North. Most of the volunteers in New
> Orleans are white, and one concern I heard repeatedly is that they may
> inadvertently contribute to the gentrification of traditionally black
> neighborhoods such as the Upper Ninth Ward. Others see the outreach of white
> activists as balm on the wounds inflicted by the racism apparent in the
> media coverage of, and the militarized response to, Katrina.
>
> The Ninth Ward symbolizes the abandonment of African-Americans by the
> government in a time of dire need, and bringing it back is a way of
> redressing that national shame and the racial divide that went with it. But
> if it does come back, it will be residents and outside volunteers who do it.
> The government is still largely missing in action -- except for the heavily
> armed soldiers on patrol and the labyrinthine bureaucracies few can
> navigate.
>
> To rebuild your home, you need a neighborhood. To have a neighborhood, you
> need a city. For a viable city, you need some degree of a safe environment.
> For a safe environment, you need responsibility on the scale of the nation;
> so, every house in New Orleans, ruined or rebuilding, poses a question about
> the state of the nation. So many pieces need to be put in place: What will
> climate change -- both increasingly intense hurricanes and rising seas -- do
> to New Orleans? Will its economy continue to fade away? Will the individuals
> who are bravely rebuilding in the most devastated areas have enough
> neighbors join them to make viable neighborhoods again? Will the city
> government improve itself enough to make a better place or will incompetence
> continue to waltz with corruption through the years? Will the nation revise
> its sense of what we owe our most significant cities (before my own city,
> San Francisco, undergoes the big one) or recognize what they give us? Will
> the solidarity of many anti-racist whites across the country outweigh the
> racism that surfaced in Katrina and still lurks not far from the surface?
>
> Despite its decline, New Orleans remains a port city and a major tourist
> destination. But it also matters because it's beautiful, with its houses --
> from shacks to mansions -- adorned with feminine, lacy-black ironwork or
> white, gingerbread wood trim, with its colossal, spreading oaks and the most
> poetic street names imaginable; because the city and the surrounding delta
> are the great font from which so much of our popular music flows; because
> people there still have a deep sense of connection and memory largely wiped
> away in so many other places; because it is a capital city for black
> culture, including traditions that flowed straight from Africa; because, in
> some strange way, it holds the memory of what life was like before
> capitalism and may yet be able to teach the rest of us something about what
> life could be like after capitalism.
>
> One of my friends in New Orleans was telling me recently about the
> generosity of the city; the ways that churches and charities kept the poor
> going so that poverty wasn't quite the abandoned thing it too often is
> elsewhere; the way that people will cook up a feast for a whole
> neighborhood; the ways the city never fully embraced the holy trinity of the
> convenient, efficient, and profitable that produce such diminished versions
> of what life can hold. The throws -- glittery beads, cups, toys -- from the
> carnival floats are a little piece of this. Life in New Orleans is grim in
> so many ways now, and all the beauty with which I end this letter coexists
> with the viciousness I began with. But the recovery of the city from this
> one mega-disaster could do much for the longer disaster that has so long now
> been part of our national lives -- the social Darwinism, social atomization,
> the shrinking of the New Deal and the Great Society and the attacks on the
> very principle that we are all woven together in the fabric we call society.
> If New Orleans doesn't recover, we aren't likely to either.
>
> We all owe New Orleans and those who suffered most in Katrina a huge debt.
> Their visible suffering and the visibly stupid, soulless, and selfish
> response of the federal government brought an end to the unquestionable
> dominance of the Bush administration in the nearly four years between New
> York's great disaster and this catastrophe. In China, great earthquakes were
> once thought to be signs that the mandate of heaven has been withdrawn from
> the ruling dynasty. Similarly, the deluges of Katrina washed away the
> mandate of the administration and made it possible, even necessary, for
> those who had been blind or fearful before to criticize and oppose
> afterwards.
>
> One hundred and one years after my city was nearly destroyed by the
> incompetent response of the authorities to a major earthquake, we are still
> sifting out what really happened. In a hundred years, we may see Katrina as
> a crisis for the belief that the civil rights movement had moved us past the
> debacle on the Edmund Pettus Bridge -- and as a crisis of legitimacy for a
> federal government that had done nothing but destroy for five years.
>
> Rebecca Solnit's essay for Harper's Magazine on disaster and civil society
> went to press the day Katrina struck New Orleans. She recently trained to
> join San Francisco's Neighborhood Emergency Response Teams in the next big
> earthquake and hopes to return to New Orleans for a more extended stay in a
> few months. She is the author of Hope in the Dark [23], among other books.
>
> Copyright 2007 Rebecca Solnit
>
> --
> NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
> always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
> available to advance understanding of
> political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
> believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
> Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
>
> "A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
> spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
> government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are
> suffering deeply in spirit,
> and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
> debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
> patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning
> back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at
> stake."
> -Thomas Jefferson
 
<omarenoryt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)


Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
the hell he's talking about.

Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
>>
>> By Tom Engelhardt
>> Created Mar 16 2007 - 10:03am
>>
>> - from Tomdispatch [1]
>>
>> [Note to Tomdispatch readers: A small addition to my Tuesday post [2], "A
>> Journalist Writing Bloody Murder... And No One Notices": With a little
>> help,
>> I finally came across a single newspaper editorial on Seymour Hersh's New
>> Yorker piece, "The Redirection." It appeared in Alabama's Decatur Daily
>> under the headline [3], "Unintended Consequence: U.S. Funding Radical
>> Islam." If anyone has seen a similar editorial anywhere, please write me.
>> If
>> you feel in the mood to be grimly amused, check out a small piece I
>> posted
>> [4] at the Nation Magazine's The Notion blog, "An Ambassador, An Iraqi,
>> and
>> a Penguin."]
>>
>> So Halliburton is leaving [5] the neighborhood. If I were you, I'd start
>> selling. It's a sign that property values are heading down in looted and
>> Katrina-tized America. With full protestations that it really isn't going
>> anywhere, Halliburton, with its $19 billion [6] in Pentagon contracts,
>> with
>> its $2.7 billion [7] in estimated Iraq overcharges, is moving its
>> headquarters to Dubai [8], the Las Vegas of the Middle East where almost
>> anyone is welcome to plot almost anything on the indoor ski slopes [9] or
>> private mini-islands [10]. If I were the head of Halliburton, I'd be
>> heading
>> for Dubai, too, or at least for parts unknown while the Bush
>> administration
>> is still in office and I still had a roof over my head. Enron's Ken Lay
>> could have taken a tip or two from Halliburton Chief Executive David
>> Lesar
>> on the subject. Far too late now, of course. And I wonder whether Al
>> Neffgen
>> [11], the ex-Halliburton exec running the privatized company, IAP
>> Worldwide
>> Services, that was put in charge of Walter Reed Army Medical Center in
>> 2006
>> as part of the privatization of the military, might be considering a
>> holiday
>> there as well. No mold, no rats (other than the human kind), just honest
>> sun
>> and sand, surf and turf, oil money and. well, everything that goes with
>> it.
>>
>> We always knew that there was a link between Iraq, hit by a purely
>> human-made flood of catastrophe, and Katrina, which had a helping hand
>> from
>> nature. Halliburton had a hand in both, of course, picking up some of the
>> earliest contracts for the "reconstruction" [12] of each -- the results
>> of
>> which are now obvious to all (even undoubtedly from Dubai). The inability
>> of
>> either the Bush administration or its chronically cost-overrun crony
>> corporations to genuinely reconstruct anything is now common knowledge.
>> But
>> it's worth remembering that, though the disaster of Iraq's
>> "reconstruction"
>> preceded it, Hurricane Katrina was the Brownie-heck-of-a-job moment that
>> revealed the reality of the Bush administration to most Americans.
>>
>> The various privatization-style lootings and catastrophes since then have
>> all been clearer for that. Katrina, in fact, has become a catch-word for
>> them. So when the Bush administration's treatment of the wounded --
>> though
>> reported [13] well beforehand -- suddenly became the headline du jour, it
>> was also a Katrina-comparison scandal. ("Dems [14] Call Walter Reed
>> Scandal
>> 'Katrina of 2007";"The Katrina [15] of Veteran's Care"; "Like Brownie
>> [16]
>> in Katrina, Rummy did 'a heckuva job.' So has Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley, Army
>> surgeon general, who commanded Walter Reed from 2002 to 2004.")
>>
>> As Rebecca Solnit so eloquently reminds us below, however, Katrina isn't
>> simply some comparison point from the past, a piece of horrific history
>> to
>> keep in mind; it's an on-going, never-ending demonstration that we have
>> been
>> changed from a can-do to a can't-do society (except perhaps at the
>> neighborhood level). Katrina, the hurricane, was then; Katrina, the New
>> Orleans catastrophe, is right now and, given what we know about
>> government
>> today, that "right now" is likely to stretch into the interminable
>> future.
>> Solnit is Tomdispatch's ray [17] of hope (and the author of the
>> remarkable
>> book Hope in the Dark [18]), but also the writer who deals with the
>> largest
>> [19] of disasters. And here she is, as always not to be missed. -- Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> Unstable Foundations: Letter from New Orleans
>>
>> Rebecca Solnit
>>
>> Riflemen and Rescuers
>>
>> On March 5, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama went south to compete for
>> the
>> limelight on the 42nd anniversary of "Bloody Sunday," the day in March
>> 1965
>> when Alabama law enforcement drove Civil Rights demonstrators off the
>> Edmund
>> Pettus Bridge and back into Selma. Somehow, the far larger and more
>> desperate attempt of a largely African-American population to march
>> across a
>> bridge less than two years ago, during the days after Hurricane Katrina,
>> and
>> the even more vicious response, has never quite entered the mainstream
>> imagination. Few outside New Orleans, therefore, understand that the city
>> became a prison in the days after 80% of it was flooded (nor has it fully
>> sunk in that the city was flooded not by a hurricane but by the failure
>> of
>> levees inadequately built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers).
>>
>> According to a little-noted Los Angeles Times report from that moment,
>> "Authorities in St. Bernard Parish, to the east, stacked cars to seal
>> roads
>> from the Crescent City." Not only were relief supplies and rescuers kept
>> out
>> of the city, but many who could have rescued themselves or reached
>> outside
>> rescue efforts were forcibly kept in. The spectacle of the suffering and
>> squalor of crowds trapped without food, water, or sanitation in
>> sweltering
>> heat that so transfixed the nation was not just the result of
>> incompetence,
>> but of malice. While the media often tended to portray the victims as
>> largely criminals, government officials shifted the focus from rescue to
>> the
>> protection of property and the policing of the public. There's no way to
>> count how many died as a result of all this.
>>
>> The Mississippi-straddling Crescent City Connection Bridge was closed to
>> pedestrians by law enforcement from Gretna, the mostly white community
>> across the river. They fired their guns over the heads of women and
>> children
>> seeking to flee the dire conditions of the Superdome and Convention
>> Center,
>> as well as the heat and thirst of the devastated city, driving back
>> thousands attempting to escape their captivity in squalor. There have
>> been
>> no consequences from any of these acts, though Congressional
>> Representatives
>> Cynthia McKinney and John Conyers have denounced them as hate crimes and
>> called for investigations, and the Reverend Lennox Yearwood said, "Can
>> you
>> imagine during 9/11, the thousands who fled on foot to the Brooklyn
>> Bridge,
>> not because they wanted to go to Brooklyn, but because it was their only
>> option? What if they had been met by six or eight police cars blocking
>> the
>> bridge, and cops fired warning shots to turn them back?"
>>
>> During my trips to the still half-ruined city, some inhabitants have told
>> me
>> that they, in turn, were told by white vigilantes of widespread murders
>> of
>> black men in the chaos of the storm and flood. One local journalist
>> assured
>> me that he tried to investigate the story, but found it impossible to
>> crack.
>> Reporters, he said, were not allowed to inspect recovered bodies before
>> they
>> were disposed of. These accounts suggest that, someday, an intrepid
>> investigative journalist may stand on its head the media hysteria of the
>> time (later quietly recanted) about African-American violence and menace
>> in
>> flooded New Orleans. Certainly, the most brutal response to the
>> catastrophe
>> was on the part of institutional authority at almost every level down to
>> the
>> most local.
>>
>> These stories are important, if only to understand what New Orleans is
>> recovering from -- not just physical devastation, but social fissures and
>> racial wounds in a situation that started as a somewhat natural disaster
>> and
>> became a socially constructed catastrophe. Nothing quite like it has
>> happened in American history. It's important to note as well that many
>> racial divides were crossed that week and after -- by people who found
>> common cause inside the city -- by, for instance, the "Cajun Navy" of
>> white
>> boat-owners who got into flooded areas to rescue scores of people.
>>
>> Ex-Black Panther Malik Rahim says that he witnessed a race war beginning
>> in
>> Algiers (next to Gretna) where he lived and that it was defused by the
>> young, white bicycle medics who came to minister to both communities;
>> since
>> then the organization Rahim co-founded, Common Ground Collective [20],
>> has
>> funneled more than 11,000 volunteers, mostly white, into New Orleans.
>>
>> Parades and Patrols
>>
>> New Orleans may have always been full of contradictions, but post-Katrina
>> they stand in high relief. For weeks in February, parades wound past
>> rowdy
>> crowds in the uptown area as part of the long carnival season that leads
>> up
>> to Mardi Gras. Since June, camouflage-clad, heavily armed National
>> Guardsmen
>> have been patrolling other parts of the flood-ravaged city in military
>> vehicles, making the place feel as much like a war zone as a disaster
>> zone -- and perhaps it is. (On March 8, for instance, a Guardsman
>> repeatedly
>> shot in the chest a 53-year-old African-American with mental problems. He
>> had brandished a BB gun at a patrol near his home, in which he had ridden
>> out Katrina, in the Upper Ninth Ward.) New Orleans' poverty was, and is,
>> constantly referenced in the national media; and the city did, and does,
>> have a lot of people without a lot of money, resources, health care,
>> education, and opportunity. But its people are peculiarly rich in
>> networks,
>> roots, traditions, music, festive ritual, public life, and love of place,
>> an
>> anomaly in an America where, generations ago, most of us lost what the
>> depleted population of New Orleans is trying to reclaim and rebuild.
>>
>> I've long been interested in ruins, in cities and civil society in the
>> wake
>> of disaster, and so I've been to New Orleans twice since Katrina hit and
>> I've tried to follow its post-catastrophe course from afar the rest of
>> the
>> time. On this carnival-season visit, even my own response was contrary: I
>> wanted to move there and yet was appalled, even horrified, by tales of
>> institutional violence that people passed on to me as the unremarkable
>> lore
>> of everyday life.
>>
>> If New Orleans is coming back, it's because a lot of its citizens love it
>> passionately, from the affluent uptowners who formed Women of the Storm
>> to
>> massage funding channels to the radical groups such as the People's
>> Hurricane Relief Fund [21] dealing with the most devastated zones.
>> Nationally, there have been many stories about people giving up and
>> leaving
>> again because the reopened schools are still lousy and crime is soaring;
>> the
>> way people are trickling back in has been far less covered.
>>
>> Of a pre-storm white population of 124,000 more than 80,000 were back by
>> last fall, while about the same number of African-Americans had
>> returned --
>> from a pre-storm population of 300,000. Though some have chosen not to
>> return, many are simply unable to, or are still organizing the means to
>> do
>> so. Other roadblocks include the shuttering of all the housing projects
>> in
>> the city, including some that sustained little or no damage in the
>> floods. A
>> few have been occupied by former residents demanding the right of return.
>> It's little noted that not all those who are still in exile from the city
>> are there by choice. And while, once again, the mainstream media story of
>> exile has been grim -- that refugees from New Orleans have brought a
>> crime
>> wave to Texas, for instance -- one longtime Austin resident assures me
>> that
>> they've also brought a lot of music, public life, and good food.
>>
>> I visited New Orleans 11 months ago, during Easter Week 2006, and it was
>> then a ghost town, spookily unpopulated, with few children among the
>> returnees; 10 months later, after more than 50 of its schools had
>> reopened,
>> there were dozens of high-school marching bands in the pre-carnival
>> parades.
>> But the bands were mostly monochromatic -- all white or all nonwhite -
>> and
>> 30 of the reopened schools are charter schools. Of course, in the slogan
>> "Bring Back New Orleans" lurks the question of how far back to bring it.
>> Once the wealthy banking powerhouse of the South, New Orleans had been
>> losing economic clout and population for decades before Katrina hit and
>> already seemed doomed to a slow decline.
>>
>> With Katrina, no one can say what the future holds. Many fear the city
>> will
>> become just a tourist attraction or that it will simply go under in the
>> next
>> major hurricane. The levees and floodwalls are being rebuilt, but not to
>> Category 5 hurricane levels, and the fate of the Mississippi River Gulf
>> Outlet, the shipping shortcut that funneled the storm's surge right into
>> New
>> Orleans, is still being debated. The Associated Press just reported [22]
>> that more than thirty of the pumps installed last year by the U.S. Army
>> Corps of Engineers to drain floodwater are defective. (The manufacturer
>> is a
>> crony of Jeb Bush's and, like so many looters of the rebuilding funds, a
>> large-scale donor to the Republican Party.)
>>
>> The city's major paper, the Times-Picayune, recently revealed that the
>> maps
>> people have been using to represent the amount of wetlands buffer south
>> of
>> the city are 75 years out of date and there are only 10 years left to
>> save
>> anything of this crucially protective marsh-scape, which erodes at the
>> rate
>> of 32 football fields a day.
>>
>> Signs of Life in the Lower Ninth
>>
>> That doesn't mean people aren't trying all over the city. It's easier,
>> however, to get out the power tools than to untangle the red tape
>> surrounding all the programs that are supposed to fund rebuilding or get
>> governmental agencies at any level to act like they care or are capable
>> of
>> accomplishing a thing.
>>
>> "Are you trying to rebuild?" I asked the woman who'd come into NENA, the
>> Lower Ninth Ward Neighborhood Empowerment Network Association in the part
>> of
>> New Orleans most soaked by the floods Katrina caused. She politely but
>> firmly corrected me, "I am going to rebuild."
>>
>> I ran into this kind of steely will all through my eight days exploring
>> the
>> city. NENA's office in a small stucco church building in the heart of the
>> Lower Ninth, the neighborhood of black homeowners that sustained several
>> feet of water for weeks after the storm, is full of maps and charts. The
>> most remarkable is a map of the neighborhood itself with every home being
>> rebuilt marked with a green pushpin. They are lightly scattered over the
>> map, but there are green dots on nearly every block and clusters of them
>> in
>> places, about 150 in this small neighborhood that looked as dead as
>> anyplace
>> imaginable not so very long ago.
>>
>> When I visited the Lower Ninth six months after Katrina, the gaping hole
>> where a barge had disastrously bashed through the levee above the
>> Industrial
>> Canal was still there, as were the cars that had been tossed like toys
>> through the neighborhood when the water rushed in so violently that it
>> tore
>> houses into splinters and shoved them from their foundations. The Lower
>> Ninth was a spooky place -- with no services, no streetlights, no
>> inhabitants.
>>
>> That nothing had been done for six months was appalling, but so was the
>> scale of reconstruction required to bring the place back to life.
>> Throughout
>> New Orleans, even homes that have no structural damage but were in the
>> heavily flooded lowlands have severe water and mold damage. Along with
>> the
>> Ninth Ward, many more middle-class neighborhoods near Lake Pontchartrain
>> also took several feet of water and they too are now but sketchily
>> inhabited. Even the tacky row of condos alongside the Southern Yacht Club
>> on
>> Lake Pontchartrain are still mostly wrecked, though some are being
>> rebuilt.
>> Sunken pleasure boats are still in the surrounding waters and one wrecked
>> boat remained on the street in a devastated middle-class neighborhood
>> nearby.
>>
>> Across from NENA's headquarters was a FEMA trailer with a wheelchair ramp
>> in
>> front of one house. In front of another, right next door, a sign
>> spray-painted on plywood read, "NO TRESPASSING NO DEMOLITION. WE ARE
>> COMING
>> BACK." And printed signs, scattered among those for demolition and
>> building
>> services, bore this message in red, "Come hell and high water!
>> Restoration,
>> revitalization, preservation of the Ninth Ward! Now and forever!" These
>> signs mean something in a neighborhood so gutted and abandoned that many
>> of
>> the street signs disappeared, some of which have since been replaced by
>> hand-painted versions.
>>
>> That people are even making their own street signs is one sign of a city
>> that has gotten to its feet. Or of citizens who have anyway. Failed by
>> every
>> level of government from the Bush administration and its still barely
>> functional FEMA to the Louisiana bureaucracy with its red-tape-strangled
>> Road Home program to the city government, people are doing it for
>> themselves. NENA was founded by Patricia Jones, an accountant and Lower
>> Ninth homeowner spurred into action by the dire situation, and it's
>> co-directed by Linda Jackson, a former laundromat owner from the
>> neighborhood. People are doing things they might never otherwise have
>> done,
>> including organizing their communities. Civic involvement is intense --
>> but
>> individual volunteers, no matter how many, from outside and local passion
>> can't do it all. It's been said before that New Orleans represents what
>> the
>> Republicans long promised us when they spoke of shrinking government
>> down.
>>
>> The returnees, Jackson told me, are mostly doing their own rebuilding --
>> but
>> sheet-rocking and plumbing are far easier to master than the intricate
>> bureaucracies applicants must fight their way through to get the funds
>> that
>> are supposed to be available to them. Even those who are not among New
>> Orleans' large population of functional illiterates, or whose lack of
>> electricity and money means that sending off the sequences of faxes
>> required
>> to set things in motion is arduous, or who lack the phones and money to
>> make
>> the endless long-distance calls to faceless strangers shuffling or losing
>> their information have problems getting anything done -- other than by
>> themselves.
>> Louisiana's Road Home program, for instance, is such an impenetrable
>> labyrinth that the Times-Picayune recently reported, "Of 108,751
>> applications received by the Road Home contractor, ICF International,
>> only
>> 782 homeowners have received final payments." Rents have risen since the
>> storm and home insurance is beyond reach for many of the working-class
>> homeowners who are rebuilding. Others can't get the homeowner's insurance
>> they need to get the mortgages to rebuild. In February, State Farm
>> Insurance
>> simply stopped issuing new policies altogether in neighboring and no less
>> devastated Mississippi.
>>
>> The disaster that was Katrina is often regarded as a storm, or a storm
>> and a
>> flood, but in New Orelans it was a storm, a flood, and an urban crisis
>> that
>> has stalled the lives of many to this day. Katrina is not even half over.
>>
>> The Great Flood and the Great Divide
>>
>> Volunteers have been flooding into New Orleans since shortly after the
>> hurricane, and they continue to come. Church youth groups arriving to do
>> demolition work were a staple for a while. This time around, I ran across
>> a
>> big group of Mennonite carpenters, some from Canada, doing rebuilding
>> gratis.
>>
>> Many young people -- often just out of college and more excited, as
>> several
>> of them said to me, by "making a difference" than by looking for an
>> entry-level job -- have come to the city and many of them appear to be
>> staying. Some have compared the thousands of volunteers to Freedom
>> Summer,
>> the 1964 African-American voter-registration drive in the South staffed
>> in
>> part by college students from the North. Most of the volunteers in New
>> Orleans are white, and one concern I heard repeatedly is that they may
>> inadvertently contribute to the gentrification of traditionally black
>> neighborhoods such as the Upper Ninth Ward. Others see the outreach of
>> white
>> activists as balm on the wounds inflicted by the racism apparent in the
>> media coverage of, and the militarized response to, Katrina.
>>
>> The Ninth Ward symbolizes the abandonment of African-Americans by the
>> government in a time of dire need, and bringing it back is a way of
>> redressing that national shame and the racial divide that went with it.
>> But
>> if it does come back, it will be residents and outside volunteers who do
>> it.
>> The government is still largely missing in action -- except for the
>> heavily
>> armed soldiers on patrol and the labyrinthine bureaucracies few can
>> navigate.
>>
>> To rebuild your home, you need a neighborhood. To have a neighborhood,
>> you
>> need a city. For a viable city, you need some degree of a safe
>> environment.
>> For a safe environment, you need responsibility on the scale of the
>> nation;
>> so, every house in New Orleans, ruined or rebuilding, poses a question
>> about
>> the state of the nation. So many pieces need to be put in place: What
>> will
>> climate change -- both increasingly intense hurricanes and rising seas --
>> do
>> to New Orleans? Will its economy continue to fade away? Will the
>> individuals
>> who are bravely rebuilding in the most devastated areas have enough
>> neighbors join them to make viable neighborhoods again? Will the city
>> government improve itself enough to make a better place or will
>> incompetence
>> continue to waltz with corruption through the years? Will the nation
>> revise
>> its sense of what we owe our most significant cities (before my own city,
>> San Francisco, undergoes the big one) or recognize what they give us?
>> Will
>> the solidarity of many anti-racist whites across the country outweigh the
>> racism that surfaced in Katrina and still lurks not far from the surface?
>>
>> Despite its decline, New Orleans remains a port city and a major tourist
>> destination. But it also matters because it's beautiful, with its
>> houses --
>> from shacks to mansions -- adorned with feminine, lacy-black ironwork or
>> white, gingerbread wood trim, with its colossal, spreading oaks and the
>> most
>> poetic street names imaginable; because the city and the surrounding
>> delta
>> are the great font from which so much of our popular music flows; because
>> people there still have a deep sense of connection and memory largely
>> wiped
>> away in so many other places; because it is a capital city for black
>> culture, including traditions that flowed straight from Africa; because,
>> in
>> some strange way, it holds the memory of what life was like before
>> capitalism and may yet be able to teach the rest of us something about
>> what
>> life could be like after capitalism.
>>
>> One of my friends in New Orleans was telling me recently about the
>> generosity of the city; the ways that churches and charities kept the
>> poor
>> going so that poverty wasn't quite the abandoned thing it too often is
>> elsewhere; the way that people will cook up a feast for a whole
>> neighborhood; the ways the city never fully embraced the holy trinity of
>> the
>> convenient, efficient, and profitable that produce such diminished
>> versions
>> of what life can hold. The throws -- glittery beads, cups, toys -- from
>> the
>> carnival floats are a little piece of this. Life in New Orleans is grim
>> in
>> so many ways now, and all the beauty with which I end this letter
>> coexists
>> with the viciousness I began with. But the recovery of the city from this
>> one mega-disaster could do much for the longer disaster that has so long
>> now
>> been part of our national lives -- the social Darwinism, social
>> atomization,
>> the shrinking of the New Deal and the Great Society and the attacks on
>> the
>> very principle that we are all woven together in the fabric we call
>> society.
>> If New Orleans doesn't recover, we aren't likely to either.
>>
>> We all owe New Orleans and those who suffered most in Katrina a huge
>> debt.
>> Their visible suffering and the visibly stupid, soulless, and selfish
>> response of the federal government brought an end to the unquestionable
>> dominance of the Bush administration in the nearly four years between New
>> York's great disaster and this catastrophe. In China, great earthquakes
>> were
>> once thought to be signs that the mandate of heaven has been withdrawn
>> from
>> the ruling dynasty. Similarly, the deluges of Katrina washed away the
>> mandate of the administration and made it possible, even necessary, for
>> those who had been blind or fearful before to criticize and oppose
>> afterwards.
>>
>> One hundred and one years after my city was nearly destroyed by the
>> incompetent response of the authorities to a major earthquake, we are
>> still
>> sifting out what really happened. In a hundred years, we may see Katrina
>> as
>> a crisis for the belief that the civil rights movement had moved us past
>> the
>> debacle on the Edmund Pettus Bridge -- and as a crisis of legitimacy for
>> a
>> federal government that had done nothing but destroy for five years.
>>
>> Rebecca Solnit's essay for Harper's Magazine on disaster and civil
>> society
>> went to press the day Katrina struck New Orleans. She recently trained to
>> join San Francisco's Neighborhood Emergency Response Teams in the next
>> big
>> earthquake and hopes to return to New Orleans for a more extended stay in
>> a
>> few months. She is the author of Hope in the Dark [23], among other
>> books.
>>
>> Copyright 2007 Rebecca Solnit
>>
>> --
>> NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
>> always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
>> available to advance understanding of
>> political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice
>> issues. I
>> believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
>> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
>> Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
>>
>> "A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
>> spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore
>> their
>> government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we
>> are
>> suffering deeply in spirit,
>> and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous
>> public
>> debt. But if the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have
>> patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of
>> winning
>> back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are
>> at
>> stake."
>> -Thomas Jefferson

>
>
 
On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
wrote:
> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> > Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> > and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> the hell he's talking about.


Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

(btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
Election?)

> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.


Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

Yol Bolsun,
Grendel.

'When you get to the edges of knowledge, be careful where you step--
that's where the bullshit is the deepest."-Solomon Short.
 
<omarenoryt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly


.... Bush ignored New Orleans while he was, as always, on vacation pretending
to be doing "haarrrd wurrrk, clurrrrrin' brush."
 
Grendel wrote:
> On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans
>>>>
>>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
>>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)
>>>

>> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
>> the hell he's talking about.
>>

>
> Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.
>
>


I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
life with
blinders on. Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
many threads
about Katrina during the months after it struck. You know
very well
what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--your dishonesty
is glaring
brightly.

I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
with a man
lacking personal integrity.

Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
his pals the
Saudis arranged to save his presidency. Bush ran and
hid--from his
stateside commitment to the National Guard during time of war.
Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his
cowardly heels.


> (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> Election?)
>
>



Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
hit, so your
argument doesn't hold water. He enjoys the confidence of
his city's
citizens, both the black and the white. Pull up your
panties, boy, your
racism is showing.

>> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.
>>

>
> Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.
>
> Yol Bolsun,
> Grendel.
>
>


Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .
You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.
> 'When you get to the edges of knowledge, be careful where you step--
> that's where the bullshit is the deepest."-Solomon Short.
>


apropos comment to all you willfully ignor ant retarded
RepubliCONS.

"Yes, you can get pregnant from anal intercourse. Where do
you think
conservatives come from?"
-- Sol Short


--
fas-cism (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that
exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically
through the merging of state and business leadership,
together with belligerent nationalism.
-- The American Heritage Dictionary



"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the
president to explain to us what the exit strategy is...I
think it's also important for the president to lay out a
timetable as to how long they will be involved and when
they will be withdrawn."
------George W. Bush to the Houston Chronicle, April 9th, 1999
 
On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
> Grendelwrote:
> > On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > wrote:

>
> >> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message

>
> >>news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>
> >>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> >>> wrote:

>
> >>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> >>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> >>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> >> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> >> the hell he's talking about.

>
> > Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> > Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> > who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> > minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> > accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> > the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> > oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> > place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> > out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> > He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

>
> I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
> life with blinders on.


So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?

> Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
> many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.


'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.

> You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--


Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
rescue us.

Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
hurricane....EVER?

> your dishonesty is glaring brightly.


Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
so.

>
> I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> with a man lacking personal integrity.


i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

> Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.


Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
classified as running and hiding)

Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
attack...right?

> Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.


Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
being AWOL.

Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his
> cowardly heels.
>
> > (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> > was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> > New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> > Election?)

>
> Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
> hit, so your
> argument doesn't hold water.


I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
was refering too.

"Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
community."

> He enjoys the confidence of
> his city's
> citizens, both the black and the white.


That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
Welfare gready idiots.

> Pull up your
> panties, boy, your
> racism is showing.


So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
be black, I'm am a 'racist'?

Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.

> >> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
> > Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

>
> >YolBolsun,
> >Grendel.

>
> Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .


I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.

> You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.


So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
Guard without coordinating with the Governer).

I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
it has always been.

In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
have no viable reasoning)

Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.

Yol Bolsun,
Grendel.

"Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)
 
"Lamont Cranston" <lamont.cranston@EvilLurksInTheWhiteHouse> wrote in
message news:45feb7b6$1_3@x-privat.org...
> <omarenoryt@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly

> ... Bush ignored New Orleans while he was, as always, on vacation
> pretending to be doing "haarrrd wurrrk, clurrrrrin' brush."


New Orleans wasn't and isn't his responsibility.
 
wsthomas@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Grendelwrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans
>>>>>>
>>>>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
>>>>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)
>>>>>
>>>> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
>>>> the hell he's talking about.
>>>>
>>> Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
>>> Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
>>> who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
>>> minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
>>> accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
>>> the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
>>> oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
>>> place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
>>> out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
>>> He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.
>>>

>> I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
>> life with blinders on.
>>

>
> So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
> of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
> hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?
>
>


This has been discussed at length for many many months. Tons of factual
data were presented, and you still make the same silly, baseless
arguments. You don't wear blinders?--alright, I'll give you that.
Apparently, though, like your esteemed president, you don't read
anything that's too difficult.

If I provide the information once more, you still will not read it, or
if you do muddle through, your intellect will not be up to the task of
understanding it.

I was out of town when Katrina hit MS Gulf Coast. My daughter and
family sat in stalled traffic for nearly 12 hours a few miles outside
Pensacola; their home was virtually destroyed. I had to threaten to
kick butt to get them to leave in time. So don't attempt to tell me a
goddamn thing about hurricanes.

The year before, the Media had a feast, blathering for hours about one
hurricane after another that either missed America entirely or rolled in
meek as a spring storm. When it could accurately be predicted precisely
where Katrina would hit land, and how terrible its power, those who had
transportation began to move north. But tens of thousands had no way out.

Although its path was only an educated guess at that point, three days
before the storm hit land, Louisiana's Democratic governor made her
request for emergency aid official. Nagin was doing his part
too--threatening, begging people to leave, begging for transportation
for his people. But on August 28th--one day before landfall, according
to NWS experts, there was only a 29% probability that NO would receive a
direct hit.

So, yes, some who could have left did not bother; leaving would be
expensive, and who had any money to waste?? and a waste it would have
been, if the storm had veered away at the last moment--after all, the
experts had been wrong lots of times. And what of those with no way out?
Bus? 1,000 busloads onto already clogged interstates and local roads?

So, when the storm struck, more than 100,000 survivors were stranded.
But NO was largely intact after the storm. It was what happened
afterwards that made it a tragedy.

Bush happened. Funds cut from the Corps of Engineers, so levees were
unable to withstand the load. Surrounding townships sending armed
guards to keep people from escaping NO happened. Bush's FEMA and Bush's
Homeland Security happened. And people died needlessly due to your
president's inaction.


>> Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
>> many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.
>>

>
> 'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.
>
>


Dumb dumb dumb. The evidence--the FACTS--were presented and you chose
to ignore. Ignore, root of the word ignorant. Willful ignorance,
synonymous with you Bush apologists.

>> You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--
>>

>
> Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
> in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
> Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
> hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
> rescue us.
>


The state you lived in? TX, FL, GA, or my state, MS? I am a
transplant, so my parents were not siblings. The entire 77-mile stretch
of MS coastline held a small portion of the population of NO's city
limits alone. A more affluent economic base; more roads out (more
places to go) for a far more mobile population; no levees to break, so
when the wind died down and the waves receded, Mississippi's emergency
situation was largely over. A different situation entirely.


So get down from your high hobby horse before you get a bloody nose. I
know this is a difficult blow to your pride. But accept it.
Mississippi fared better during the aftermath of Katrina due to the
logistics of the thing. Not your state's superiority. I live here too,
so I know from firsthand experience that the intellect and worth ethic
of Mississippians are not superior to those of neighboring states.

We cleaned up quicker, as I said, because we endured far far less
flooding, and help could get to us far far easier. And perhaps most
importantly of all, a larger percentage of us owned our own homes (one
is more apt to repair one's own property as even a rightarded
Mississippian ought to realize). So wipe that smirk off your arrogant,
inbred face, bucko.

> Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> hurricane....EVER?
>



do you recall your uncle-daddy's name? the color of your mother-sister's
eyes?

Do you recall that 75,000 people were stranded at the Superdome alone?
that cops refused to allow anyone to escape from NO into neighboring
towns? that it was all lies that the poor of NO were raping and killing
one another at the Superdome and other places people were suffering
together? that Media filmed cops threatening to kill people fleeing
destroyed stores with cans of food and loaves of moldy bread? that cops
and Blackwater contractors and, yes, a few National Guard amateurs did
in fact fire at and kill desperate people from helicopters and boats? Do
you recall that nearly two years after the storm, thousands of people
are still prohibited from reclaiming undamaged NO homes?

>
>> your dishonesty is glaring brightly.
>>

>
> Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> so.
>



I have done so. You have been exposed to the facts in numerous
documentaries, news reports, congressional investigations and here on
usenet. Yet you stubbornly, dishonestly refuse to accept what your
eyes have seen and your ears have heard and what the muted voice of your
conscience keeps trying to tell you is the truth about George Bush's
malfeasance and incompetence in office.

>
>> I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
>> with a man lacking personal integrity.
>>

>
> i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.
>
>


Don't rant, provide evidence of Nagin's **** ups, then I will gladly
produce evidence refuting your every claim.

Look, we both know that'll be a waste of your time and mine.
Desperately-Seeking Susan [question: does the S in wsthomas stand for
Susan?], desperate to prove to himself/herself that he/she was right and
everyone else is wrong about your boy george. Well, sonny/girly, you
have seen, heard, read the truth numerous times, yet you still refuse to
believe. So be it. Your loss. your inability to accept reality won't
affect me even a little bit.


>> Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
>> his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.
>>

>
> Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> classified as running and hiding)
>


your ignorance is astounding. While the Towers burned, he was in FL,
under his brother's protection, giving an emergency important political
speech, to a group of 3rd graders--or perhaps it was for help reading
his favorite novel, My Pet Goat? Look, the trip was a last-second
surprise to even the members of the WH Press Corps (most of whom were
left behind). Why so sudden, hmmm? Even you ought to wonder.


> Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> attack...right?
>
>


Laughing at you, sonny. Standing on the precipice of one canyon, now
you want to retreat to the safety of the cliffs of the Grand
Canyon--careful there, sonny/girly, you are standing quite close to the
precipice.

This too has been debated countless times. Two planes, yet three
buildings collapse--straight down, the only three steel skyscrapers in
the history of man to implode without help from strategically placed
explosives. Cheney, ordering the Air Force to stand down that morning,
bush ordering the Air Force to permit two planes filled to overflowing
with members of the bin Laden family to fly home to the home of all 19
terrorists. I could go on. but I won't. Unless you insist. you'd
have to be a glutton for punishment. your only counter to my arguments
will continue to be the oft-repeated five-word rant "you are a
conspiracy freak." Keep this in mind as you lay you down to sleep, just
because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.


By now it ought to be apparent to you as it is to more than 70% of your
fellow Americans, Bush IS out to get you...and me...and every other
working class American.


>> Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.
>>

>
> Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
> being AWOL.
>



silly boy. As he remarked with his infamous smirk to one of his
professors who asked him how he got admitted to Harvard with such low
grades, "My daddy has lots of friends in high places."

> Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his cowardly heels.
>
>
>>> (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
>>> was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
>>> New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
>>> Election?)
>>>

>> Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
>> hit, so your
>> argument doesn't hold water.
>>

>
> I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
> was refering too.
>
> "Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
> anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
> Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
> readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
> dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
> community."
>


quite true. Nearly two years after the disaster, people are being
refused to reclaim their undamaged homes...entire communities within NO.

>
>> He enjoys the confidence of
>> his city's
>> citizens, both the black and the white.
>>

>
> That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
> Welfare gready idiots.
>
>


that remark proves that there rally are a lot of inbred bigots in
Mississippi.


>> Pull up your
>> panties, boy, your
>> racism is showing.
>>

>
> So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
> be black, I'm am a 'racist'?
>
>


Quoting you , big boy: "That just proves that the majority of New
Orleans is a bunch of
Welfare gready idiots." Psst--both IE and Thunderbird have built-in
spell checkers.




> Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
> that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.
>
>


Quoting you , bigoted boy, "That just proves that the majority of New
Orleans is a bunch of
Welfare gready idiots."



>>>> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.
>>>>
>>> Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.
>>>
>>> YolBolsun,
>>> Grendel.
>>>

>> Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .
>>

>
> I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
> doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
> case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
> asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.
>
>


apparently you wouldn't recognize a fact if it bit you on your
momma-sister's fat ass.

>> You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.
>>

>
> So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
> own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
> ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
> school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
> those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
> follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
> not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
> during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
> faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
> that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
> inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
> Guard without coordinating with the Governer).
>


sigh. okay, you insist that we continue to rehash this. Your
embarrassment.
School buses...one trip out possible on the clogged roads.

Here's the truth about Mayor Nagin's buses:


A large school bus holds about 90 people if they sit three to a seat.
That's what the federal government tells the school districts when
trying to figure how much to charge for the buses. They hold 90 people
if they aren't any bigger than most 3rd or 4th graders. From about 5th
grade up you're going to get 2 people to a seat at best. Therefore, now
you're down to about 60 to 70 people for a large bus.


Not all school buses are this big. Half those buses were about 1/3
that size. Most are your average size school bus which holds roughly 50
people. Short buses (yes, they had some of those) seat about 10.


Let's do the math. Let's be generous and say that New Orleans had 300
average size buses. If each bus was loaded with 50 people that would be
15,000 people that could have been evacuated using the buses.


Buses are slow beasts when the roads are clear and traffic is moving at
maximum speed, and Baton Rouge could not have held all the evacuees from
New Orleans. No matter what anyone wants to think, there just wasn't
enough space. Baton Rouge was also not far enough away from New Orleans
not to get hit with hurricane force winds. Therefore dumping the people
in the street or leaving them on the buses would not have been an option.

Again, though, let's be generous and say that Baton Rouge could have
held all those people. On a normal day it would take at least 90
minutes to drive from New Orleans to Baton Rouge. According to a fellow
teacher at my school, it took some of her relatives at least six hours
to drive from New Orleans to Baton Rouge on the Saturday before Katrina
struck.

If the buses were able to, they could turn around and get maybe one more
load of people. That's a huge if , but I'm trying to be generous here.

All together, maybe 30,000 people could have been evacuated using school
buses. Maybe. Trust me, that's being really, really generous. It's
also leaving anywhere from 70,000 to another 100,000 people stranded in
New Orleans.

Should the buses have been put into play? Sure.

All those buses, though, would not have been able to evacuate the entire
city of New Orleans. It would have also been a logistic nightmare that
would have severely hampered the ability of the buses to get even 15,000
people out of the area. Unless the mayor of New Orleans could rely on
Black Magic to levitate the buses over the traffic and into multiple
communities, they wouldn't have made that big a difference.

If you still think 300 school buses could have evacuated all those
people, you're being dishonest with yourself.

And who to drive the buses? Most of the bus drivers were hauling ass
out of NO with their families along with the hundreds of thousands who
were clogging the roads out.



> I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
> person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
> sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
> make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
> decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
> protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
> governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
> support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
> assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
> it has always been.
>


amply explained to you by myself and other posters numerous times.

> In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
> Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
> this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
> have no viable reasoning)
>

Quoting you, bigoted boy, "That just proves that the majority of New
Orleans is a bunch of
Welfare gready idiots."




> Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
> resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
> Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.
>
> Yol Bolsun,
> Grendel.
>
> "Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
> privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)
>
>

Paraphrasing Rocky Balboa here, "Yol, Adriian, we did it!"
During the course of this thread, you have proven yourself imbecilic,
bigoted, and most damning of all, willfully ignorant.

Before you can adequately debate an informed adult, first you must
mature into an adult.

--
fas-cism (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.
-- The American Heritage Dictionary



"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is...I think it's also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn."
------George W. Bush to the Houston Chronicle, April 9th, 1999
 
On Mar 20, 12:07 am, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

(some paragraphs deleted for brevity)

> This has been discussed at length for many many months. Tons of factual
> data were presented, and you still make the same silly, baseless
> arguments. You don't wear blinders?--alright, I'll give you that.
> Apparently, though, like your esteemed president, you don't read
> anything that's too difficult.
>
> If I provide the information once more, you still will not read it, or
> if you do muddle through, your intellect will not be up to the task of
> understanding it.
>
> I was out of town when Katrina hit MS Gulf Coast. My daughter and
> family sat in stalled traffic for nearly 12 hours a few miles outside
> Pensacola; their home was virtually destroyed. I had to threaten to
> kick butt to get them to leave in time. So don't attempt to tell me a
> goddamn thing about hurricanes.


It's a good thing you got your daughters family out. They took
responsibility for their own safety. Most in New Orleans did not. How
is this Bush's Fault?

> The year before, the Media had a feast, blathering for hours about one
> hurricane after another that either missed America entirely or rolled in
> meek as a spring storm. When it could accurately be predicted precisely
> where Katrina would hit land, and how terrible its power, those who had
> transportation began to move north. But tens of thousands had no way out.


Yeah, because someone responsible, say like Nagin, didn't provide the
available transportation. How is this Bush's fault? (of course, you
ignore that most just didn't 'feel' like leaving)

> Although its path was only an educated guess at that point, three days
> before the storm hit land, Louisiana's Democratic governor made her
> request for emergency aid official.


Actually, that's a lie. SHE declared LA a disaster are three days
before hand, but she didn't ask BUSH to declare it a major
disaster ,in order to release federal assistance, less than 48 hours
before landfall.

> Nagin was doing his part
> too--threatening, begging people to leave,


Yeah, if by 'threatening, begging' you mean he didn't declare a
mandatory evacuation until less then 20 hours before landfall. How is
this Bush's fault?

> begging for transportation
> for his people.


Yeah, if by 'beggin for transportation' you mean 'not utilizing metro
and school board busses he had access to'...how is this Bush's fualt?

> But on August 28th--one day before landfall, according
> to NWS experts, there was only a 29% probability that NO would receive a
> direct hit.


And, as it turned out, it didn't receive a direct hit.

> So, yes, some who could have left did not bother;


And this is Bush's fault, how?

> leaving would be
> expensive, and who had any money to waste??


So, your family's security is based on the price of a tank of gas?

> and a waste it would have
> been, if the storm had veered away at the last moment--after all, the
> experts had been wrong lots of times.


So, they took and chance, and lost...Bush's fault how?

> And what of those with no way out?


It actually doesn't take a lot to get out of the flood area of New
Orleans. You can walk it if you have to.

> Bus? 1,000 busloads onto already clogged interstates and local roads?


Another failure by the authorities of LA. They waited WAY to long
before reversing flow on the interstates.

> So, when the storm struck, more than 100,000 survivors were stranded.
> But NO was largely intact after the storm. It was what happened
> afterwards that made it a tragedy.


This is true.

> Bush happened. Funds cut from the Corps of Engineers, so levees were
> unable to withstand the load.


Those levees have been deemed insufficient to withstand a Cat 3
hurricane since the 1960's. How is Bush responsible for this?

> Surrounding townships sending armed
> guards to keep people from escaping NO happened.


Well, being neighbors, maybe they had a pretty good idea of the people
they would be getting and wanted to protect their own..of course, this
does not make it right, but nor does it make it Bush's Fualt.

> Bush's FEMA and Bush's
> Homeland Security happened. And people died needlessly due to your
> president's inaction.


Again, FEMA was on scene within 24 hours, and had National Guard in
the city within 3 days. This is far better than the five in normally
takes.


> Dumb dumb dumb. The evidence--the FACTS--were presented and you chose
> to ignore. Ignore, root of the word ignorant. Willful ignorance,
> synonymous with you Bush apologists.
>
> >> You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> The state you lived in? TX, FL, GA, or my state, MS? I am a
> transplant, so my parents were not siblings. The entire 77-mile stretch
> of MS coastline held a small portion of the population of NO's city
> limits alone.


> A more affluent economic base;


i.e. Not Welfare trash.

> more roads out (more
> places to go) for a far more mobile population; no levees to break,


So, this is all geography...how is the geography Bush's fault? (the
same geography that made it very difficult to get INTO New Orleans
after the storm. remember, less roads out means less roads in,also).

> so
> when the wind died down and the waves receded, Mississippi's emergency
> situation was largely over. A different situation entirely.
>
> So get down from your high hobby horse before you get a bloody nose. I
> know this is a difficult blow to your pride. But accept it.
> Mississippi fared better during the aftermath of Katrina due to the
> logistics of the thing. Not your state's superiority. I live here too,
> so I know from firsthand experience that the intellect and worth ethic
> of Mississippians are not superior to those of neighboring states.


I would dissagree. I've been AL, MS & LA post katrina. In AL, MS and
some of LA, they are working hard to rebuild. In New Orleans, they
are sitting on their ass, waiting for the guv'mint money, watching the
mexicans rebuiled their town)

> We cleaned up quicker, as I said, because we endured far far less
> flooding,


I got six feet of flooding, how about you?

> and help could get to us far far easier.


Strange, I don't remember help getting to my house for about 8 days.
Of course, we had pretty much cleaned up what we could by then.

> And perhaps most
> importantly of all, a larger percentage of us owned our own homes (one
> is more apt to repair one's own property as even a rightarded
> Mississippian ought to realize).


Yeah, we were dumb enough to have something called 'insurance'...and
we still have spent over $100K out of pocket (mainly becasue we
decided it would be a good time to do improvements). And, although
we've had massive amounts of damage, we STILL haven't received any
goverment assistance.

> So wipe that smirk off your arrogant,
> inbred face, bucko.


You like to infer that I am inbred. I'll just call you a '****ing
idiot', you ****ing idiot.

> > Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> > Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> > hurricane....EVER?

>
> do you recall your uncle-daddy's name? the color of your mother-sister's
> eyes?
>
> Do you recall that 75,000 people were stranded at the Superdome alone?


Yeah, maybe someone responsible should have provided more shelters
(according to the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness plan, there
should have been more and Nagin was in charge). How is this Bush's
Fault?

> that cops refused to allow anyone to escape from NO into neighboring
> towns?


Bush's cops?

> that it was all lies that the poor of NO were raping and killing
> one another at the Superdome and other places people were suffering
> together?


Yes, it was bullshit, that was made up by the media? Is the Media
Bush's fualt?

> that Media filmed cops threatening to kill people fleeing
> destroyed stores with cans of food and loaves of moldy bread? that cops
> and Blackwater contractors and, yes, a few National Guard amateurs did
> in fact fire at and kill desperate people from helicopters and boats?


Yes, those 'deperate people' who had fired at the helicopters and
boats FIRST. It's called 'self defense'.

> Do
> you recall that nearly two years after the storm, thousands of people
> are still prohibited from reclaiming undamaged NO homes?
>
> >> your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> > Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> > so.

>
> I have done so. You have been exposed to the facts in numerous
> documentaries,


Yeah, supposedly Bowling for Columbine was a 'documentary', too.

> news reports, congressional investigations


What were the criminal charges again? OH? Not any?

> and here on usenet.


Again, 'usenet' does not equate to facts..it equates to debate.

> Yet you stubbornly, dishonestly refuse to accept what your
> eyes have seen and your ears have heard and what the muted voice of your
> conscience keeps trying to tell you is the truth about George Bush's
> malfeasance and incompetence in office.


I'm not crazy about Bush. He was, in my opinion, the lesser of two
evils. I dissagree with him on many things, but that does not make
him responsible for the ineptness of New Orleans and LA.

> >> I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> >> with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> > i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> Don't rant, provide evidence of Nagin's **** ups, then I will gladly
> produce evidence refuting your every claim.



Nagin's **** Ups:

Federal officials have faulted Nagin's administration for not
marshaling its Regional Transit Authority buses and those of the
School Board. When Nagin failed to follow the evacuation plan for New
Orleans, he threw a HUGE monkey-wrench into the activities and
responsibility of the Lousiana National Guard, who now had to shift
gears to manage the masses converging on the Superdome. Mayor Nagin
also miserably failed to implement the Hurricane Evacuation Plan for
the city of New Orleans. He failed to evacuate those people that
collected at city shelters via the buses he had at his disposal
(ironically, within 24 hours of the levee breach, Nagin was in front
of TV cameras blaming Bush for not sending buses, when he ordered the
evacuation when he had over 1000 buses, that he never even tried to
budge).

The New Orleans contingency plan states, "The safe evacuation of
threatened populations is on of the principle reasons for developing a
Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But this was ignored.

Not preparing for people to be in the Dome for several days after the
storm. There was food and water in the Dome, but not enough for a
week. Asking people to bring food and water is not 'preparing'.


> Look, we both know that'll be a waste of your time and mine.
> Desperately-Seeking Susan [question: does the S in wsthomas stand for
> Susan?], desperate to prove to himself/herself that he/she was right and
> everyone else is wrong about your boy george. Well, sonny/girly, you
> have seen, heard, read the truth numerous times, yet you still refuse to
> believe. So be it. Your loss. your inability to accept reality won't
> affect me even a little bit.


The reality is that, if you live below sea level and a hurricane is
comeing, get the **** out. It's YOUR responsibility. Nagin failed
his city. Blanco failed her state. The Federal response was the
fastest ever.

And we've been paying for it ever since. Since when did it become
goverment's job to provide everyone with a house?

> >> Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> >> his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> > Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> > protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> > classified as running and hiding)

>
> your ignorance is astounding. While the Towers burned, he was in FL,
> under his brother's protection, giving an emergency important political
> speech, to a group of 3rd graders--or perhaps it was for help reading
> his favorite novel, My Pet Goat? Look, the trip was a last-second
> surprise to even the members of the WH Press Corps (most of whom were
> left behind). Why so sudden, hmmm? Even you ought to wonder.


What, a president makes a photo op? That's a conspiracy?

> > Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> > attack...right?

>
> Laughing at you, sonny. Standing on the precipice of one canyon, now
> you want to retreat to the safety of the cliffs of the Grand
> Canyon--careful there, sonny/girly, you are standing quite close to the
> precipice.


Oh, that such a big word for a ****ing idiot.

> This too has been debated countless times.


And you conspiracy idiots are all ****ing...well, idiots.

> Two planes, yet three
> buildings collapse--


Could be, two collapsed from big assed airplanes barrelling into them
and the third from the damage inflicted by the falling of the first
two. Check out ALL the film of the day and you will realize that over
10 floors of WTC 7 had been damaged with the damage going over 25%
into the structure.

> straight down,


You want them to fall up, maybe?

> the only three steel skyscrapers in
> the history of man to implode without help from strategically placed
> explosives.


WTC's 1 & 2 were not steel frame buildings. They were designed as
what is known as verticcal fenestration. Otherwise knows as a
perforated steel bearing-wall system. Why do you lie so much?

And they did not 'implode', they collapsed.

Nor is it true that no other steel skyscrapers have collapsed without
the help from strategically placed explosives (and, how pray tell,
would such explosives 1) be placed without someone's knowledge and 2)
without someone noticing..it would take thousands of pounds, which
would be difficult to hide and would take months to place)

> Cheney, ordering the Air Force to stand down that morning,


Okay, you have evidence of this?

> bush ordering the Air Force to permit two planes filled to overflowing
> with members of the bin Laden family to fly home to the home of all 19
> terrorists.


This bullshit theory has been debunked.

> I could go on. but I


Yes, I'm sure you COULD go on spouting false bullshit all day long.

Yol Bolsun,
Grendel.

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."-
SOlomon Short.
 
wsthomas@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On Mar 20, 12:07 am, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> (some paragraphs deleted for brevity)
>
>





deleted to disguise your inability to mount a cogent debate.
>> This has been discussed at length for many many months. Tons of factual
>> data were presented, and you still make the same silly, baseless
>> arguments. You don't wear blinders?--alright, I'll give you that.
>> Apparently, though, like your esteemed president, you don't read
>> anything that's too difficult.
>>
>> If I provide the information once more, you still will not read it, or
>> if you do muddle through, your intellect will not be up to the task of
>> understanding it.
>>
>> I was out of town when Katrina hit MS Gulf Coast. My daughter and
>> family sat in stalled traffic for nearly 12 hours a few miles outside
>> Pensacola; their home was virtually destroyed. I had to threaten to
>> kick butt to get them to leave in time. So don't attempt to tell me a
>> goddamn thing about hurricanes.
>>

>
> It's a good thing you got your daughters family out. They took
> responsibility for their own safety. Most in New Orleans did not. How
> is this Bush's Fault?
>
>


You should have read my post before beginning to delete.

Look, Katrina was a disaster. Like the T-shirt says, **** happens. Not
Nagin's fault, as you loudly proclaim, not altogether Bush's fault,
which I have not claimed. But more Bush's fault than any other person's.


>> The year before, the Media had a feast, blathering for hours about one
>> hurricane after another that either missed America entirely or rolled in
>> meek as a spring storm. When it could accurately be predicted precisely
>> where Katrina would hit land, and how terrible its power, those who had
>> transportation began to move north. But tens of thousands had no way out.
>>

>
> Yeah, because someone responsible, say like Nagin, didn't provide the
> available transportation. How is this Bush's fault? (of course, you
> ignore that most just didn't 'feel' like leaving)
>


I see you really are arrogant in your ignorance. Shall I repost all the
deleted material? would you read it this time? Perhaps if I use
Winword's grammar checker to dumb it down to a 3rd grader's reading
level?--you know, 3-word sentences, single syllable words. (i.e., "See
the levees break. See New Orleans drown." Or is that also too difficult
for your comprehension?)

>
>> Although its path was only an educated guess at that point, three days
>> before the storm hit land, Louisiana's Democratic governor made her
>> request for emergency aid official.
>>

>
> Actually, that's a lie. SHE declared LA a disaster are three days
> before hand, but she didn't ask BUSH to declare it a major
> disaster ,in order to release federal assistance, less than 48 hours
> before landfall.
>
>


Bullshit. Blanco's declaration was sent officially to the WH three full
days before the storm hit. Bush declared Louisiana, MS and AL a national
disaster area two full days before landfall. But as I said, 24 hours
before landfall, NWS still proclaimed only a 29% chance of it striking
New Orleans a direct blow. Actually, New Orleans was hardly damaged by
the storm--people poured out of their homes, hugging and crying and
laughing, another bullet had missed their beloved city. Then the levees
broke. The maintenance of which Bush had defunded shortly after taking
office.


>> Nagin was doing his part
>> too--threatening, begging people to leave,
>>

>
> Yeah, if by 'threatening, begging' you mean he didn't declare a
> mandatory evacuation until less then 20 hours before landfall. How is
> this Bush's fault?
>
>


How is it Nagin's fault?
on the morning of the 28th, according to NWS experts, there was still a
71% chance the storm would turn away from Louisiana and move on to Texas
or even Mexico. Any evacuation places a tremendous hardship on
governments, on businesses, and more importantly, on individuals.

>> begging for transportation
>> for his people.
>>

>
> Yeah, if by 'beggin for transportation' you mean 'not utilizing metro
> and school board busses he had access to'...how is this Bush's fualt?
>
>


how is this Bush's fualt [sic]? He didn't send even one more bus, not
one military transport, he didn't order commercial buses to take
evacuees, he didn't send in military helicopters to evacuate the hospitals.

How is it Nagin's fault that all evacuations require all roads back in
to be turned into more roads out? 300...500...even 800 buses would have
been insufficient, because each bus could have made only one trip out,
and with only 50-70 people. If they could have gotten safely away
through the clogged highways. And you have to wonder, if the buses had
tried to run west to avoid the worst traffic snarl in history, would
they too have been stopped by armed bigots from neighboring parishes?

school board busses [?] A buss is a kiss (as in a buss on the lips). I assume you meant "buses". but, in fairness, I'll give you this: since "buss" itself is a word, a spell checker wouldn't have caught your error.



>> But on August 28th--one day before landfall, according
>> to NWS experts, there was only a 29% probability that NO would receive a
>> direct hit.
>>

>
> And, as it turned out, it didn't receive a direct hit.
>


ah, so you admit this? So what created such a disaster? The broken
levees. The levees that Bush had cut the funding for.


>
>> So, yes, some who could have left did not bother;
>>

>
> And this is Bush's fault, how?
>
>


this is Nagin's fault because?

>> leaving would be
>> expensive, and who had any money to waste??
>>

>
> So, your family's security is based on the price of a tank of gas?
>
>


tank of gas? I take it you have never traveled 50 miles beyond family
and friends? Motels, up to $130 per day. Meals, up to $25 each, per
couple. Lost wages. Damage to homes that might have been prevented, had
someone been there to, for instance, tape busted windows; loss of
belongings to looters. And, yes, sometimes, just plain thrill seeking
kept some fools home.


>> and a waste it would have
>> been, if the storm had veered away at the last moment--after all, the
>> experts had been wrong lots of times.
>>

>
> So, they took and chance, and lost...Bush's fault how?
>



I notice that your argument has transmogrified from blaming Democrat
Nagin into defense of Bush's reputation. They "took and [sic] chance"
for the reasons listed above, and many more than are known only to the
individuals.
>
>> And what of those with no way out?
>>

>
> It actually doesn't take a lot to get out of the flood area of New
> Orleans. You can walk it if you have to.
>
>


A foolish, disingenuous statement. Are you really so misinformed????
Armed deputies and shotgun-toting vigilantes stood guard at bridges to
the west. And, umm, you are aware, are you not, that Katrina's cone was
wide and deep and moving fast as a mother****er. The storm center made
landfall on the western edge of MS, but it still destroyed homes and
killed people as far to the East as Alabama, as far to the West as
Houston, farther to the North than Baton Rouge. What's your best walking
speed?


>> Bus? 1,000 busloads onto already clogged interstates and local roads?
>>

>
> Another failure by the authorities of LA. They waited WAY to long
> before reversing flow on the interstates.
>


Your ignorance is astounding, especially for one who claims to have
lived through other hurricanes. The buses could not have taken all the
stranded to safety with one trip, and here you are suggesting that any
return trips for more passengers should have been prevented even earlier
by reversing the flow of all lanes in. Remember, too, that bus drivers
and cops also have families they want to get to safety, and most had
money for travel, so almost all the bus drivers and a large percentage
of the cops and firemen took your advice and left long before the storm
hit. Additionally, do keep in mind the old adage: You can lead a cow to
water, but you can't make it drink if it isn't thirsty.



>
>> So, when the storm struck, more than 100,000 survivors were stranded.
>> But NO was largely intact after the storm. It was what happened
>> afterwards that made it a tragedy.
>>

>
> This is true.
>
>


what happened afterward is clearly the fault of the Bush
administration's "discretionary spending" budget cuts. The rich needed
them tax cuts!

>> Bush happened. Funds cut from the Corps of Engineers, so levees were
>> unable to withstand the load.
>>

>
> Those levees have been deemed insufficient to withstand a Cat 3
> hurricane since the 1960's. How is Bush responsible for this?
>


They weren't maintained at even a minimal level, thanks solely to Bush's
budget cuts.


>
>> Surrounding townships sending armed
>> guards to keep people from escaping NO happened.
>>

>
> Well, being neighbors, maybe they had a pretty good idea of the people
> they would be getting and wanted to protect their own..of course, this
> does not make it right, but nor does it make it Bush's Fualt.
>
>



it makes it bigotry. Bush had the power to order those avenues of escape
left open--he had National Guard, armed Blackwater contractors and the
bully-pulpit of the presidency to force compliance. He did nothing. THAT
makes it Bush's fault.

>> Bush's FEMA and Bush's
>> Homeland Security happened. And people died needlessly due to your
>> president's inaction.
>>

>
> Again, FEMA was on scene within 24 hours, and had National Guard in
> the city within 3 days. This is far better than the five in normally
> takes.
>


Bullshit. Besides, "on scene" does not mean in action. Driving through
the rubble that was MS four days after the storm, the trucks were just
then beginning to roll south. Contrast this to the instantaneous
Federal response to hurricanes that struck FL during the past decade.


Dick Cheney also earned criticism for his role in the aftermath. On the
night of August 30, and again the next morning, he personally called the
manager of the Southern Pines Electric Power Association and ordered him
to divert power crews to electrical substations in nearby Collins,
Mississippi that were essential to the operation of the Colonial
Pipeline, which carries gasoline and diesel fuel from Texas to the
Northeast. The power crews were reportedly upset when told what the
purpose of the redirection was, since they were in the process of
restoring power to two local hospitals, but did so anyway.


In January 2007, former FEMA director Michael D. Brown charged that
partisan politics had played a role in the White House's decision to
federalize emergency response to the disaster in Louisiana only rather
than along the entire affected Gulf Coast region, which Brown said he
had advocated. "Unbeknownst to me, certain people in the White House
were thinking, 'We had to federalize Louisiana because she's a white,
female Democratic governor, and we have a chance to rub her nose in
it,'" Brown said, speaking before a group of graduate students at the
Metropolitan College of New York on January 19, 2007. "'We can't do it
to Haley [Mississippi governor Haley Barbour] because Haley's a white
male Republican governor. And we can't do a thing to him. So we're just
gonna federalize Louisiana.'"
>
>
>> Dumb dumb dumb. The evidence--the FACTS--were presented and you chose
>> to ignore. Ignore, root of the word ignorant. Willful ignorance,
>> synonymous with you Bush apologists.
>>
>>
>>>> You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--
>>>>

>> The state you lived in? TX, FL, GA, or my state, MS? I am a
>> transplant, so my parents were not siblings. The entire 77-mile stretch
>> of MS coastline held a small portion of the population of NO's city
>> limits alone.
>>

>
>
>> A more affluent economic base;
>>

>
> i.e. Not Welfare trash.
>
>


you, sir, are a racist and an economic bigot.


>> more roads out (more
>> places to go) for a far more mobile population; no levees to break,
>>

>
> So, this is all geography...how is the geography Bush's fault? (the
> same geography that made it very difficult to get INTO New Orleans
> after the storm. remember, less roads out means less roads in,also).
>
>

How is it Nagin's fault????

You keep trying to slip-slide away from your original rant, that
Democrats Nagin and Blanco deserve sole blame for the disaster.


>> so
>> when the wind died down and the waves receded, Mississippi's emergency
>> situation was largely over. A different situation entirely.
>>
>> So get down from your high hobby horse before you get a bloody nose. I
>> know this is a difficult blow to your pride. But accept it.
>> Mississippi fared better during the aftermath of Katrina due to the
>> logistics of the thing. Not your state's superiority. I live here too,
>> so I know from firsthand experience that the intellect and worth ethic
>> of Mississippians are not superior to those of neighboring states.
>>

>
> I would dissagree. I've been AL, MS & LA post katrina. In AL, MS and
> some of LA, they are working hard to rebuild. In New Orleans, they
> are sitting on their ass, waiting for the guv'mint money, watching the
> mexicans rebuiled their town)
>


will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).
One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.

>
>> We cleaned up quicker, as I said, because we endured far far less
>> flooding,
>>

>
> I got six feet of flooding, how about you?
>
>


only three feet, inland fifteen miles from the ocean. it quickly
receded; how about yours?
NO got up to 40' in some areas, and it had to be pumped out, a process
that required more than a month.


>> and help could get to us far far easier.
>>

>
> Strange, I don't remember help getting to my house for about 8 days.
> Of course, we had pretty much cleaned up what we could by then.
>
>


YOUR house. YOUR neighborhood.

>> And perhaps most
>> importantly of all, a larger percentage of us owned our own homes (one
>> is more apt to repair one's own property as even a rightarded
>> Mississippian ought to realize).
>>

>
> Yeah, we were dumb enough to have something called 'insurance'...and
> we still have spent over $100K out of pocket (mainly becasue we
> decided it would be a good time to do improvements). And, although
> we've had massive amounts of damage, we STILL haven't received any
> goverment assistance.
>
>


State Farm blamed my roof damage on the central air (which runs two feet
below the roof). No money, not a dime for $12,00 in damage. State Farm
was not a "good neighbor."

BTW, one does not purchase insurance for housing projects and even your
own home if your income barely buys the groceries.






>> So wipe that smirk off your arrogant,
>> inbred face, bucko.
>>

>
> You like to infer that I am inbred. I'll just call you a '****ing
> idiot', you ****ing idiot.
>
>


you are a bigot: you earned the appellation by your refusal to assess
any of the blame to your boy George Bush.

I imply ; you infer . (i.e., I inferred from your smug, racist rants
that you might be inbred, and then I implied that you might be inbred).


>>> Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
>>> Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
>>> hurricane....EVER?
>>>

>> do you recall your uncle-daddy's name? the color of your mother-sister's
>> eyes?
>>
>> Do you recall that 75,000 people were stranded at the Superdome alone?
>>

>
> Yeah, maybe someone responsible should have provided more shelters
> (according to the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness plan, there
> should have been more and Nagin was in charge). How is this Bush's
> Fault?
>


Well, for one thing his tax cuts to the wealthy forced cuts in Federal
funds available to the States.

FEMA? After FL's last direct hit ( a mild hurricane, if there can be
such a thing), FEMA passed out checks, unasked, 200 miles north of the
damage zone. An investment in the next election, maybe?


>
>> that cops refused to allow anyone to escape from NO into neighboring
>> towns?
>>

>
> Bush's cops?
>


Bush had the power to open the escape routes; he did nothing.

>
>> that it was all lies that the poor of NO were raping and killing
>> one another at the Superdome and other places people were suffering
>> together?
>>

>
> Yes, it was bullshit, that was made up by the media? Is the Media
> Bush's fualt?
>


Possibly Rove's fualt [sic]. He is after all, Bush's personal Goebbels.

>
>> that Media filmed cops threatening to kill people fleeing
>> destroyed stores with cans of food and loaves of moldy bread? that cops
>> and Blackwater contractors and, yes, a few National Guard amateurs did
>> in fact fire at and kill desperate people from helicopters and boats?
>>

>
> Yes, those 'deperate people' who had fired at the helicopters and
> boats FIRST. It's called 'self defense'.
>
>


Not one iota of evidence was ever presented that this happened. But when
YOUR child, YOUR grandmother is drowning, or has been stranded for four
days on a roof surrounded by floating corpses, and helicopters and
boats, cameras busily filming your grandmother's naked backside, pass
you by, might YOU be tempted to fire a shot into the air to get their
attention?


>> Do
>> you recall that nearly two years after the storm, thousands of people
>> are still prohibited from reclaiming undamaged NO homes?
>>
>>
>>>> your dishonesty is glaring brightly.
>>>>
>>> Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
>>> so.
>>>

>> I have done so. You have been exposed to the facts in numerous
>> documentaries,
>>

>
> Yeah, supposedly Bowling for Columbine was a 'documentary', too.
>


sometimes the truth is painful for you rightards.


>
>> news reports, congressional investigations
>>

>
> What were the criminal charges again? OH? Not any?
>
>



lots of levels of blame, dude. Bush has yet to be charged in a court of
law for his treasonous lies that got us involved in Iraq. Cheney has yet
to be charged for his treasonous outing of a top secret CIA operative.
It's unlikely that they will be. It's about accountability, assigning
blame where blame is due.


>> and here on usenet.
>>

>
> Again, 'usenet' does not equate to facts..it equates to debate.
>
>



During the course of debate, skilled debaters conduct research and post
facts that support their viewpoints. I have presented you with facts
regarding bush's mishandling of the Katrina disaster; again, you will
choose to ignore the truth about your boy george. Ignore , root word of
ignorance .
The willful ignorance of a "compassionate" conservative.

>> Yet you stubbornly, dishonestly refuse to accept what your
>> eyes have seen and your ears have heard and what the muted voice of your
>> conscience keeps trying to tell you is the truth about George Bush's
>> malfeasance and incompetence in office.
>>

>
> I'm not crazy about Bush. He was, in my opinion, the lesser of two
> evils. I dissagree with him on many things, but that does not make
> him responsible for the ineptness of New Orleans and LA.
>
>


Kerry was evil in what way? You voted for Bush even though you knew in
2004 that he had been a disaster as president merely because you lacked
the personal courage to reverse your previous defense of the incompetent
asshole. How sad for you.


>>>> I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
>>>> with a man lacking personal integrity.
>>>>
>>> i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.
>>>

>> Don't rant, provide evidence of Nagin's **** ups, then I will gladly
>> produce evidence refuting your every claim.
>>

>
>
> Nagin's **** Ups:
>
> Federal officials have faulted Nagin's administration for not
> marshaling its Regional Transit Authority buses and those of the
> School Board. When Nagin failed to follow the evacuation plan for New
> Orleans, he threw a HUGE monkey-wrench into the activities and
> responsibility of the Lousiana National Guard, who now had to shift
> gears to manage the masses converging on the Superdome. Mayor Nagin
> also miserably failed to implement the Hurricane Evacuation Plan for
> the city of New Orleans. He failed to evacuate those people that
> collected at city shelters via the buses he had at his disposal
> (ironically, within 24 hours of the levee breach, Nagin was in front
> of TV cameras blaming Bush for not sending buses, when he ordered the
> evacuation when he had over 1000 buses, that he never even tried to
> budge).
>
> The New Orleans contingency plan states, "The safe evacuation of
> threatened populations is on of the principle reasons for developing a
> Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But this was ignored.
>
> Not preparing for people to be in the Dome for several days after the
> storm. There was food and water in the Dome, but not enough for a
> week. Asking people to bring food and water is not 'preparing'.
>
>
>



The above rant has already been ably discounted.



>> Look, we both know that'll be a waste of your time and mine.
>> Desperately-Seeking Susan [question: does the S in wsthomas stand for
>> Susan?], desperate to prove to himself/herself that he/she was right and
>> everyone else is wrong about your boy george. Well, sonny/girly, you
>> have seen, heard, read the truth numerous times, yet you still refuse to
>> believe. So be it. Your loss. your inability to accept reality won't
>> affect me even a little bit.
>>

>
> The reality is that, if you live below sea level and a hurricane is
> comeing, get the **** out. It's YOUR responsibility. Nagin failed
> his city. Blanco failed her state. The Federal response was the
> fastest ever.
>
>


bullshit. Arriving on site is not the same as taking action. Reread my
previous comments twice more--a dozen times more, try to educate yourself.

> And we've been paying for it ever since. Since when did it become
> goverment's job to provide everyone with a house?
>
>


since we became a nation. Brother helps brother. Society helps victims
of disasters. Children are not allowed to go to bed hungry, without a
roof to cover their heads. We give spare change to the indigent (BTW,
many of those street bums are veterans of America's wars). Where's your
compassion for the less fortunate?

>>>> Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
>>>> his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.
>>>>
>>> Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
>>> protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
>>> classified as running and hiding)
>>>

>> your ignorance is astounding. While the Towers burned, he was in FL,
>> under his brother's protection, giving an emergency important political
>> speech, to a group of 3rd graders--or perhaps it was for help reading
>> his favorite novel, My Pet Goat? Look, the trip was a last-second
>> surprise to even the members of the WH Press Corps (most of whom were
>> left behind). Why so sudden, hmmm? Even you ought to wonder.
>>

>
> What, a president makes a photo op? That's a conspiracy?
>


no advance notice given of the trip. Ergo, less Press to take the pretty
pictures. And did you not notice the nervousness, the fear in Bush's
eyes even before he was notified about the first
Tower strike? No, you wouldn't: you'd rather blame it on his fear that
he'd have to ask a 3rd grader for help pronouncing the big words.


>
>>> Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
>>> attack...right?
>>>

>> Laughing at you, sonny. Standing on the precipice of one canyon, now
>> you want to retreat to the safety of the cliffs of the Grand
>> Canyon--careful there, sonny/girly, you are standing quite close to the
>> precipice.
>>

>
> Oh, that such a big word for a ****ing idiot.
>
>


Precipice--big word? How about this one:
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious? Check its meaning and spelling if
you like. Just click on this link:
www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtracks/s/thesoundofmusiclyrics/

You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
I feel it is a lost cause. For instance, the above sentence lacks a verb.

>> This too has been debated countless times.
>>

>
> And you conspiracy idiots are all ****ing...well, idiots.
>
>

You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
I feel it is a lost cause.

>> Two planes, yet three
>> buildings collapse--
>>

>
> Could be, two collapsed from big assed airplanes barrelling into them
> and the third from the damage inflicted by the falling of the first
> two. Check out ALL the film of the day and you will realize that over
> 10 floors of WTC 7 had been damaged with the damage going over 25%
> into the structure.
>
>


http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm

Here's a snippet from that website:
BBC Footage Shows Report On 911 Attack Describing Building #7's
Collapse...23 Minutes BEFORE It Actually Occurred


http://www.rense.com/general57/aale.htm



http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/Grossmann/Four Horsemen/066 Four Riders of 9-11 Apocalypse.htm
THE BUILDING SECURITY CONNECTION, MARVIN BUSH:



NAMES: Marvin Bush, Barbara Bush, James Pierce, Securacom, Al Sabah
family of Kuwait



Marvin P. Bush, with other co-conspirators, knew and permitted the
planting of bombs in the World Trade Center on or around September 8 and
9, 2001 for the purpose of destroying and pulverizing the World Trade
Center twin towers on September 11, 2001 and killing several thousand
innocent people.



On Thursday before 9-11, building security removed the bomb-sniffing
dogs that had been safeguarding the World Trade Center against bombs.
Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been
working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone
threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.



On Saturday and Sunday before 9-11, the power was shut down in the twin
towers and unidentified technicians „rewired“ the buildings from the
50th floor upwards; it is obvious that this could have been an
opportunity to plant demolition charges to later take the buildings down.



The private security company who was responsible for the security of the
World Trade Center on 9-11-1 was Securacom, a Bush family company. On
the Board of Directors of Securacom was Marvin P. Bush, one of President
George W. Bush’s brothers. This Bush family company was a joint venture
with the ruling Al Sabah family of Kuwait.



Barbara Bush has admitted that her son Marvin was in Manhattan at the
World Trade Center when the buildings were taken down as if to
supervise. A nephew of Barbara Bush, James Pierce, apparently was tipped
off and vacated his office in the World Trade Center shortly before the
very location of his office was hit and blown up in a huge explosion
during one of the attacks.



On Terror Tuesday, 9-11-1, bombs exploded in the World Trade Center and
demolished the twin towers, killing over two thousand Americans. This
was originally explained by Albert Turi, the New York Fire Department
Security Chief, and numerous bomb experts, confirmed by dozens of
eyewitnesses of the explosions, the seismic measurements of the
explosions, the original version of the mainstream TV videos
(meticulously documented by Henrik Melvang, Denmark), the huge explosion
blasts that rocked at least one helicopter and blew-up otherwise
inexplicably huge dust clouds, etc. The bombs were apparently placed in
the World Trade Center under the responsibility of a security company
entitled ”Securacom” that was controlled by the Bush family.


The melting point of iron is 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit; jet fuel
(essentially just kerosene) has a flash point of 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

The buildings collapsed straight down, as in commercial demolitions. I
suggest you watch this short video:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm



>> straight down,
>>

>
> You want them to fall up, maybe?
>


A smart ass comment is all you can muster to counter my argument?

>
>> the only three steel skyscrapers in
>> the history of man to implode without help from strategically placed
>> explosives.
>>

>
> WTC's 1 & 2 were not steel frame buildings. They were designed as
> what is known as verticcal fenestration. Otherwise knows as a
> perforated steel bearing-wall system. Why do you lie so much?
>
>


steel melting point 2,750 degrees, the heat of the burning kerosene,
only 120 degrees.


> And they did not 'implode', they collapsed.
>



they imploded. prove they did not.
> Nor is it true that no other steel skyscrapers have collapsed without
> the help from strategically placed explosives


prove even one has done so.


> (and, how pray tell,
> would such explosives 1) be placed without someone's knowledge and 2)
> without someone noticing..it would take thousands of pounds, which
> would be difficult to hide and would take months to place)
>
>

http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/Grossmann/Four Horsemen/066 Four Riders of 9-11 Apocalypse.htm
THE BUILDING SECURITY CONNECTION, MARVIN BUSH:

browse the website.



>> Cheney, ordering the Air Force to stand down that morning,
>>

>
> Okay, you have evidence of this?
>
>


This article appears in the September 19, 2003 issue of Executive
Intelligence Review.
Cheney's Role in 9/11
Put on Center Stage by British MP
by Mark Burdman

For the first time, a prominent British political figure has aired his
suspicions, that the group around U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney may
have intentionally caused, or allowed to happen, the mega-terrorism in
New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001, to set into motion an era of
neo-imperial wars. Labour Party Member of Parliament Michael Meacher
wrote a major feature focusing on Cheney's Project for a New American
Century grouping, in the London Guardian on Sept. 6. Meacher had
resigned in June as Environment Minister, a post he held in Tony Blair's
government for six years. This Summer's political wars in Britain, as
EIR forecast they would, are drawing ever closer to Cheney. This is the
context in which Meacher took Blair to task for subordinating Britain's
interests to Cheney and his neo-conservative gang in Washington.
....


Wargames Were Cover For the Operational Execution of 9/11

Alex Jones & Paul Joseph Watson | Updated September 20 2004

UPDATE: Alex Jones Discusses 9/11 Wargames in April 2004 Video

For almost three years since 9/11 independent researchers have
stockpiled individual smoking guns which prove that the official version
of events was not only a lie but operationally impossible.

However, no single smoking gun has yet been forwarded to explain why air
defenses categorically reversed Standard Operating Procedure and failed
to respond to hijacked jetliners.

Until now. More and more individuals are looking at the facts and
highlighting exercise drills that took place on the morning of 9/11.

It is clear that at least five if not six training exercises were in
operation in the days leading up to and on the morning of 9/11. This
meant that NORAD radar screens showed as many as 22 hijacked airliners
at the same time. NORAD had been briefed that this was part of the
exercise drill and therefore normal reactive procedure was forestalled
and delayed.

The large numbers of 'blips' on NORAD screens that displayed both real
and 'drill' hijacked planes explain why confused press reports emerged
hours after the attack stating that up to eight planes had been
hijacked. Click here for that article.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2004/080904wargamescover.htm

>> bush ordering the Air Force to permit two planes filled to overflowing
>> with members of the bin Laden family to fly home to the home of all 19
>> terrorists.
>>

>
> This bullshit theory has been debunked.
>
>


it is FACT. what part of it are you denying? that all but one of the
hijackers were Saudi citizens? or that members of the bin Laden family
were permitted to fly home when all US citizens were grounded?

Could it be that Osama himself was aboard one of those planes? We'll
never know now, will we: Bush's presidential order allowing them to
leave American airspace made sure of that.


>> I could go on. but I
>>

>
> Yes, I'm sure you COULD go on spouting false bullshit all day long.
>



Disprove anything I have written. Otherwise, you will have to remain in
the eyes of this newsgroup's auspicious readers either honestly ignorant
of the facts or just plain dishonest.


> Yol Bolsun,
> Grendel.
>
> "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."-
> SOlomon Short.
>
>

tired of getting your ass kicked yet?

--
fas-cism (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.
-- The American Heritage Dictionary



"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is...I think it's also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn."
------George W. Bush to the Houston Chronicle, April 9th, 1999
 
On Mar 20, 4:07 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
> wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > On Mar 20, 12:07 am, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> > (some paragraphs deleted for brevity)

>
> deleted to disguise your inability to mount a cogent debate.


Actually, if you had checked it, I did not delete anything that
required responses too. Nor did I delete anything from your last
post, but from several posts back. The responses are getting
inordinatly long.


> >> This has been discussed at length for many many months. Tons of factual
> >> data were presented, and you still make the same silly, baseless
> >> arguments. You don't wear blinders?--alright, I'll give you that.
> >> Apparently, though, like your esteemed president, you don't read
> >> anything that's too difficult.

>
> >> If I provide the information once more, you still will not read it, or
> >> if you do muddle through, your intellect will not be up to the task of
> >> understanding it.

>
> >> I was out of town when Katrina hit MS Gulf Coast. My daughter and
> >> family sat in stalled traffic for nearly 12 hours a few miles outside
> >> Pensacola; their home was virtually destroyed. I had to threaten to
> >> kick butt to get them to leave in time. So don't attempt to tell me a
> >> goddamn thing about hurricanes.

>
> > It's a good thing you got your daughters family out. They took
> > responsibility for their own safety. Most in New Orleans did not. How
> > is this Bush's Fault?

>
> You should have read my post before beginning to delete.
>
> Look, Katrina was a disaster. Like the T-shirt says, **** happens. Not
> Nagin's fault, as you loudly proclaim, not altogether Bush's fault,
> which I have not claimed. But more Bush's fault than any other person's.


How do you figure that? It's not Bush's responsibility to prepare the
city and it's citizens for a Hurricane. It was Nagin's
responsibility, clearly stated in the Hurricane Preparedness Plan (if
you read it, you'll find there is no mention of getting federal help
to prepare).

> >> The year before, the Media had a feast, blathering for hours about one
> >> hurricane after another that either missed America entirely or rolled in
> >> meek as a spring storm. When it could accurately be predicted precisely
> >> where Katrina would hit land, and how terrible its power, those who had
> >> transportation began to move north. But tens of thousands had no way out.

>
> > Yeah, because someone responsible, say like Nagin, didn't provide the
> > available transportation. How is this Bush's fault? (of course, you
> > ignore that most just didn't 'feel' like leaving)

>
> I see you really are arrogant in your ignorance. Shall I repost all the
> deleted material? would you read it this time? Perhaps if I use
> Winword's grammar checker to dumb it down to a 3rd grader's reading
> level?--you know, 3-word sentences, single syllable words. (i.e., "See
> the levees break. See New Orleans drown." Or is that also too difficult
> for your comprehension?)


i.e. See Nagin ****-up. See people not leave.

> >> Although its path was only an educated guess at that point, three days
> >> before the storm hit land, Louisiana's Democratic governor made her
> >> request for emergency aid official.

>
> > Actually, that's a lie. SHE declared LA a disaster are three days
> > before hand, but she didn't ask BUSH to declare it a major
> > disaster ,in order to release federal assistance, less than 48 hours
> > before landfall.

>
> Bullshit. Blanco's declaration was sent officially to the WH three full
> days before the storm hit.


BLANCO's declaration declaring LA a disaster area was three days
before. She didn't request BUSH to declare it a NATIONAL disaster
area until TWO days before. Please check your fact.

> Bush declared Louisiana, MS and AL a national
> disaster area two full days before landfall. But as I said, 24 hours
> before landfall, NWS still proclaimed only a 29% chance of it striking
> New Orleans a direct blow. Actually, New Orleans was hardly damaged by
> the storm--people poured out of their homes, hugging and crying and
> laughing, another bullet had missed their beloved city. Then the levees
> broke. The maintenance of which Bush had defunded shortly after taking
> office.
>
> >> Nagin was doing his part
> >> too--threatening, begging people to leave,

>
> > Yeah, if by 'threatening, begging' you mean he didn't declare a
> > mandatory evacuation until less then 20 hours before landfall. How is
> > this Bush's fault?

>
> How is it Nagin's fault?
> on the morning of the 28th, according to NWS experts, there was still a
> 71% chance the storm would turn away from Louisiana and move on to Texas
> or even Mexico. Any evacuation places a tremendous hardship on
> governments, on businesses, and more importantly, on individuals.


Okay, evacuation places tremendous hardship on everybody, but then so
does FLOOD, and anyone who lives in New Orleans knows this is a
possibility.

> >> begging for transportation
> >> for his people.

>
> > Yeah, if by 'beggin for transportation' you mean 'not utilizing metro
> > and school board busses he had access to'...how is this Bush's fualt?

>
> how is this Bush's fualt [sic]? He didn't send even one more bus, not
> one military transport, he didn't order commercial buses to take
> evacuees, he didn't send in military helicopters to evacuate the hospitals.


BEFORE the hurricane (I see you intentionally misunderstood the
statement) it is Nagin's responsiblity to handle the evacuation.
Please take time to read the Hurricane Preparedness Plans for both the
City of New Orleans and the state of LA. It points out specifically
who is responsible. AFTER the storm, access was near impossible.

> How is it Nagin's fault that all evacuations require all roads back in
> to be turned into more roads out? 300...500...even 800 buses would have
> been insufficient, because each bus could have made only one trip out,
> and with only 50-70 people.


There would be that many more people out of harms way.

> If they could have gotten safely away
> through the clogged highways. And you have to wonder, if the buses had
> tried to run west to avoid the worst traffic snarl in history, would
> they too have been stopped by armed bigots from neighboring parishes?


So, there were armed bigots out BEFORE the storm? You realize that it
is better to evacuate BEFORE a storm than AFTER, right?

> school board busses [?] A buss is a kiss (as in a buss on the lips). I assume you meant "buses". but, in fairness, I'll give you this: since "buss" itself is a word, a spell checker wouldn't have caught your error.
>
> >> But on August 28th--one day before landfall, according
> >> to NWS experts, there was only a 29% probability that NO would receive a
> >> direct hit.

>
> > And, as it turned out, it didn't receive a direct hit.

>
> ah, so you admit this? So what created such a disaster? The broken
> levees. The levees that Bush had cut the funding for.


Yeah, maybe he cut funding (and was not the first to do so) when he
realized no improvements were getting done on the levess because New
Orleans decided it needed a new bridge to it's casino, a $4 million
statue and LA decided it needed a new senate building, all paid for
with the levee funds.

> >> So, yes, some who could have left did not bother;

>
> > And this is Bush's fault, how?

>
> this is Nagin's fault because?


Didn't claim it was. Some are not going to leave even under a
mandatory evacuation. No one can be held responsible for their
stupidity.

> >> leaving would be
> >> expensive, and who had any money to waste??

>
> > So, your family's security is based on the price of a tank of gas?

>
> tank of gas? I take it you have never traveled 50 miles beyond family
> and friends? Motels, up to $130 per day. Meals, up to $25 each, per
> couple. Lost wages. Damage to homes that might have been prevented, had
> someone been there to, for instance, tape busted windows; loss of
> belongings to looters. And, yes, sometimes, just plain thrill seeking
> kept some fools home.


During the evacuation for Ivan, I saw people that went north just far
enough to get out of the storm, and then set up tents. I went to
Memphis (16 hours), only because my wife wanted to. That was the only
one I've ever evacuated for. Will never again.

> >> and a waste it would have
> >> been, if the storm had veered away at the last moment--after all, the
> >> experts had been wrong lots of times.

>
> > So, they took and chance, and lost...Bush's fault how?

>
> I notice that your argument has transmogrified from blaming Democrat
> Nagin into defense of Bush's reputation. They "took and [sic] chance"
> for the reasons listed above, and many more than are known only to the
> individuals.


And no one can be blamed for what happens to them when they decide to
put themselves in danger.

> >> And what of those with no way out?

>
> > It actually doesn't take a lot to get out of the flood area of New
> > Orleans. You can walk it if you have to.

>
> A foolish, disingenuous statement. Are you really so misinformed????
> Armed deputies and shotgun-toting vigilantes stood guard at bridges to
> the west.


Only AFTER the storm. I've spent time in New Orleans. 1) I would
never stay during a thunder storm, much less a hurricane & 2) If
you're halfway intelligent, you can get out BEFORE a storm.

> And, umm, you are aware, are you not, that Katrina's cone was
> wide and deep and moving fast as a mother****er.


Strangely enough, I lived through it. I had plenty of time to
prepare, and helped my extended family prepare.

> The storm center made
> landfall on the western edge of MS, but it still destroyed homes and
> killed people as far to the East as Alabama, as far to the West as
> Houston, farther to the North than Baton Rouge. What's your best walking
> speed?


I was talking about walking out of the area of New Orleans that is
below sea level (a bad place to be in a hurricane).

> >> Bus? 1,000 busloads onto already clogged interstates and local roads?

>
> > Another failure by the authorities of LA. They waited WAY to long
> > before reversing flow on the interstates.

>
> Your ignorance is astounding, especially for one who claims to have
> lived through other hurricanes. The buses could not have taken all the
> stranded to safety with one trip, and here you are suggesting that any
> return trips for more passengers should have been prevented even earlier
> by reversing the flow of all lanes in.


So, if you can't safe EVERYBODY, you shouldn't save ANYBODY? Kinda
cold there.

> Remember, too, that bus drivers
> and cops also have families they want to get to safety, and most had
> money for travel, so almost all the bus drivers and a large percentage
> of the cops and firemen took your advice and left long before the storm
> hit.


Which is another failure of local government. Emergency services and
support are not supposed to abandon the city, they are supposed to
stay and help.

> Additionally, do keep in mind the old adage: You can lead a cow to
> water, but you can't make it drink if it isn't thirsty.


But do you blame the farmer when they don't drink?

> >> So, when the storm struck, more than 100,000 survivors were stranded.
> >> But NO was largely intact after the storm. It was what happened
> >> afterwards that made it a tragedy.

>
> > This is true.

>
> what happened afterward is clearly the fault of the Bush
> administration's "discretionary spending" budget cuts. The rich needed
> them tax cuts!


Yes, he was indeed 'discrete' in not supplying the government official
with more money to line their pockets.

Everyone got tax cuts...strangely enough, that mostly affected the
people that pay the most taxes. Should we have found a way to give
more tax cuts to people who don't pay taxes (you'd probably answer
'yes')?

> >> Bush happened. Funds cut from the Corps of Engineers, so levees were
> >> unable to withstand the load.

>
> > Those levees have been deemed insufficient to withstand a Cat 3
> > hurricane since the 1960's. How is Bush responsible for this?

>
> They weren't maintained at even a minimal level, thanks solely to Bush's
> budget cuts.


They weren't being maintained even when they were fully funded, as the
money was being diverted. There is a reason that LA is considered the
most corrupt state.

> >> Surrounding townships sending armed
> >> guards to keep people from escaping NO happened.

>
> > Well, being neighbors, maybe they had a pretty good idea of the people
> > they would be getting and wanted to protect their own..of course, this
> > does not make it right, but nor does it make it Bush's Fualt.

>
> it makes it bigotry.


I would call it a sense of preservation.

> Bush had the power to order those avenues of escape
> left open--he had National Guard, armed Blackwater contractors and the
> bully-pulpit of the presidency to force compliance. He did nothing. THAT
> makes it Bush's fault.


Maybe he thought that using the National Guard to help save people was
more important. Not to mention, the President does not have control
over local police, Ever heard of the Posse Comitatus Act? t
generally prohibits Federal military personnel and units of the United
States National Guard under Federal authority from acting in a law
enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly
authorized by the Constitution or Congress.

> >> Bush's FEMA and Bush's
> >> Homeland Security happened. And people died needlessly due to your
> >> president's inaction.

>
> > Again, FEMA was on scene within 24 hours, and had National Guard in
> > the city within 3 days. This is far better than the five in normally
> > takes.

>
> Bullshit. Besides, "on scene" does not mean in action. Driving through
> the rubble that was MS four days after the storm, the trucks were just
> then beginning to roll south. Contrast this to the instantaneous
> Federal response to hurricanes that struck FL during the past decade.


The best response after a hurricane in FL that I am aware of is about
5 days.

> Dick Cheney also earned criticism for his role in the aftermath. On the
> night of August 30, and again the next morning, he personally called the
> manager of the Southern Pines Electric Power Association and ordered him
> to divert power crews to electrical substations in nearby Collins,
> Mississippi that were essential to the operation of the Colonial
> Pipeline, which carries gasoline and diesel fuel from Texas to the
> Northeast. The power crews were reportedly upset when told what the
> purpose of the redirection was, since they were in the process of
> restoring power to two local hospitals, but did so anyway.
>
> In January 2007, former FEMA director Michael D. Brown charged that
> partisan politics had played a role in the White House's decision to
> federalize emergency response to the disaster in Louisiana only rather
> than along the entire affected Gulf Coast region, which Brown said he
> had advocated. "Unbeknownst to me, certain people in the White House
> were thinking, 'We had to federalize Louisiana because she's a white,
> female Democratic governor, and we have a chance to rub her nose in
> it,'" Brown said, speaking before a group of graduate students at the
> Metropolitan College of New York on January 19, 2007. "'We can't do it
> to Haley [Mississippi governor Haley Barbour] because Haley's a white
> male Republican governor. And we can't do a thing to him. So we're just
> gonna federalize Louisiana.'"


Or it could be that they had to federalize LA because it was a ****
up, and not MS because it wasn't.

> >> Dumb dumb dumb. The evidence--the FACTS--were presented and you chose
> >> to ignore. Ignore, root of the word ignorant. Willful ignorance,
> >> synonymous with you Bush apologists.

>
> >>>> You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> >> The state you lived in? TX, FL, GA, or my state, MS? I am a
> >> transplant, so my parents were not siblings. The entire 77-mile stretch
> >> of MS coastline held a small portion of the population of NO's city
> >> limits alone.

>
> >> A more affluent economic base;

>
> > i.e. Not Welfare trash.

>
> you, sir, are a racist and an economic bigot.


On what do you base this bullshit opinion? I didn't mention color at
any point? And yes, it is well known that New Orleans is a Welfare
economy.

> >> more roads out (more
> >> places to go) for a far more mobile population; no levees to break,

>
> > So, this is all geography...how is the geography Bush's fault? (the
> > same geography that made it very difficult to get INTO New Orleans
> > after the storm. remember, less roads out means less roads in,also).

>
> How is it Nagin's fault????


You seem to have a habit of inferring things I don't say. I didn't
say it was Nagin's fault, just pointed out that you can't hold Bush
responsible for geography.

> You keep trying to slip-slide away from your original rant, that
> Democrats Nagin and Blanco deserve sole blame for the disaster.


I never claimed that, but after the individual's responsibility, it is
the responsibility of the local and state authority, THEN the federal.

> >> so
> >> when the wind died down and the waves receded, Mississippi's emergency
> >> situation was largely over. A different situation entirely.

>
> >> So get down from your high hobby horse before you get a bloody nose. I
> >> know this is a difficult blow to your pride. But accept it.
> >> Mississippi fared better during the aftermath of Katrina due to the
> >> logistics of the thing. Not your state's superiority. I live here too,
> >> so I know from firsthand experience that the intellect and worth ethic
> >> of Mississippians are not superior to those of neighboring states.

>
> > I would dissagree. I've been AL, MS & LA post katrina. In AL, MS and
> > some of LA, they are working hard to rebuild. In New Orleans, they
> > are sitting on their ass, waiting for the guv'mint money, watching the
> > mexicans rebuiled their town)

>
> will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
> housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).


Yeah, that's why I don't live in a major metropolitan area. New
Orleans is a city based on generational welfare.

> One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
> doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
> that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.


I rebuilt my own home. But the majority of New Orleans would rather
bitch about the guv'mint not providing for them. (My favorite Post
Katrina Quote, "The guv'mints been taking care of me my whole life.
For them to stop no is unconstitutionable.")

> >> We cleaned up quicker, as I said, because we endured far far less
> >> flooding,

>
> > I got six feet of flooding, how about you?

>
> only three feet, inland fifteen miles from the ocean. it quickly
> receded; how about yours?


6 feet, about 40 miles from the gulf (not ocean), but only a few miles
from the Bay.

> NO got up to 40' in some areas, and it had to be pumped out, a process
> that required more than a month.


See, not a good place to stay during a hurricane.

> >> and help could get to us far far easier.

>
> > Strange, I don't remember help getting to my house for about 8 days.
> > Of course, we had pretty much cleaned up what we could by then.

>
> YOUR house. YOUR neighborhood.


Yes, mine. You see, me, and my neighbors, didn't sit on our asses
waiting for assistance.

> >> And perhaps most
> >> importantly of all, a larger percentage of us owned our own homes (one
> >> is more apt to repair one's own property as even a rightarded
> >> Mississippian ought to realize).

>
> > Yeah, we were dumb enough to have something called 'insurance'...and
> > we still have spent over $100K out of pocket (mainly becasue we
> > decided it would be a good time to do improvements). And, although
> > we've had massive amounts of damage, we STILL haven't received any
> > goverment assistance.

>
> State Farm blamed my roof damage on the central air (which runs two feet
> below the roof). No money, not a dime for $12,00 in damage. State Farm
> was not a "good neighbor."


I agree. State farm is really ****ing the people of MS...I hope that
gets changed.

> BTW, one does not purchase insurance for housing projects and even your
> own home if your income barely buys the groceries.


Yeah, maybe they should put down the crack pipe in order to better
themselves. They are still responsible for their own safety.

> >> So wipe that smirk off your arrogant,
> >> inbred face, bucko.

>
> > You like to infer that I am inbred. I'll just call you a '****ing
> > idiot', you ****ing idiot.

>
> you are a bigot: you earned the appellation by your refusal to assess
> any of the blame to your boy George Bush.


So, in your idiot mind, 'supporting Bush' equals 'Bigot'...your hatred
is noted.

> I imply ; you infer . (i.e., I inferred from your smug, racist rants
> that you might be inbred, and then I implied that you might be inbred).


Either way, you're still a ****ing idiot.

> >>> Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> >>> Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> >>> hurricane....EVER?

>
> >> do you recall your uncle-daddy's name? the color of your mother-sister's
> >> eyes?

>
> >> Do you recall that 75,000 people were stranded at the Superdome alone?

>
> > Yeah, maybe someone responsible should have provided more shelters
> > (according to the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness plan, there
> > should have been more and Nagin was in charge). How is this Bush's
> > Fault?

>
> Well, for one thing his tax cuts to the wealthy forced cuts in Federal
> funds available to the States.


Actually, if you'd read up on it, tax cuts created the largest income
for the IRS...ever.

> FEMA? After FL's last direct hit ( a mild hurricane, if there can be
> such a thing), FEMA passed out checks, unasked, 200 miles north of the
> damage zone. An investment in the next election, maybe?


I don't agree with paying people for a disaster with tax money. Some
people around here managed to **** the gov. out of hundreds of
thousands of dollars.

> >> that cops refused to allow anyone to escape from NO into neighboring
> >> towns?

>
> > Bush's cops?

>
> Bush had the power to open the escape routes; he did nothing.


No, he didn't

> >> that it was all lies that the poor of NO were raping and killing
> >> one another at the Superdome and other places people were suffering
> >> together?

>
> > Yes, it was bullshit, that was made up by the media? Is the Media
> > Bush's fualt?

>
> Possibly Rove's fualt [sic]. He is after all, Bush's personal Goebbels.
>
>
>
> >> that Media filmed cops threatening to kill people fleeing
> >> destroyed stores with cans of food and loaves of moldy bread? that cops
> >> and Blackwater contractors and, yes, a few National Guard amateurs did
> >> in fact fire at and kill desperate people from helicopters and boats?

>
> > Yes, those 'deperate people' who had fired at the helicopters and
> > boats FIRST. It's called 'self defense'.

>
> Not one iota of evidence was ever presented that this happened. But when
> YOUR child, YOUR grandmother is drowning, or has been stranded for four
> days on a roof surrounded by floating corpses, and helicopters and
> boats, cameras busily filming your grandmother's naked backside, pass
> you by, might YOU be tempted to fire a shot into the air to get their
> attention?


One copter was actully hit. But to you, I guess bullet holes in sheet
metal are not 'evidence'.

> >> Do
> >> you recall that nearly two years after the storm, thousands of people
> >> are still prohibited from reclaiming undamaged NO homes?

>
> >>>> your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> >>> Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> >>> so.

>
> >> I have done so. You have been exposed to the facts in numerous
> >> documentaries,

>
> > Yeah, supposedly Bowling for Columbine was a 'documentary', too.

>
> sometimes the truth is painful for you rightards.


You haven't been presenting any truth.

> >> news reports, congressional investigations

>
> > What were the criminal charges again? OH? Not any?

>
> lots of levels of blame, dude. Bush has yet to be charged in a court of
> law for his treasonous lies that got us involved in Iraq.


That's because you can't prove he 'lied' when in fact, he didn't.

> Cheney has yet
> to be charged for his treasonous outing of a top secret CIA operative.


It's been proven that Cheney is not the one who 'outed' her..it wasn't
even Libby. (Try Armatage)

> It's unlikely that they will be. It's about accountability, assigning
> blame where blame is due.
>
> >> and here on usenet.

>
> > Again, 'usenet' does not equate to facts..it equates to debate.

>
> During the course of debate, skilled debaters conduct research and post
> facts that support their viewpoints. I have presented you with facts
> regarding bush's mishandling of the Katrina disaster; again, you will
> choose to ignore the truth about your boy george. Ignore , root word of
> ignorance .
> The willful ignorance of a "compassionate" conservative.


Usually, on usenet, 'debate' is you presenting your lies.

> >> Yet you stubbornly, dishonestly refuse to accept what your
> >> eyes have seen and your ears have heard and what the muted voice of your
> >> conscience keeps trying to tell you is the truth about George Bush's
> >> malfeasance and incompetence in office.

>
> > I'm not crazy about Bush. He was, in my opinion, the lesser of two
> > evils. I dissagree with him on many things, but that does not make
> > him responsible for the ineptness of New Orleans and LA.

>
> Kerry was evil in what way?


Kerry was too damn wishy washy, changing based on the latest poles.
He was, in my opinion, a traitor during Korea. His purple hearts were
bullshit. to name a few.

> You voted for Bush even though you knew in
> 2004 that he had been a disaster as president merely because you lacked
> the personal courage to reverse your previous defense of the incompetent
> asshole. How sad for you.


I voted for Bush because I thought he was the best choice.

> >>>> I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> >>>> with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> >>> i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> >> Don't rant, provide evidence of Nagin's **** ups, then I will gladly
> >> produce evidence refuting your every claim.

>
> > Nagin's **** Ups:

>
> > Federal officials have faulted Nagin's administration for not
> > marshaling its Regional Transit Authority buses and those of the
> > School Board. When Nagin failed to follow the evacuation plan for New
> > Orleans, he threw a HUGE monkey-wrench into the activities and
> > responsibility of the Lousiana National Guard, who now had to shift
> > gears to manage the masses converging on the Superdome. Mayor Nagin
> > also miserably failed to implement the Hurricane Evacuation Plan for
> > the city of New Orleans. He failed to evacuate those people that
> > collected at city shelters via the buses he had at his disposal
> > (ironically, within 24 hours of the levee breach, Nagin was in front
> > of TV cameras blaming Bush for not sending buses, when he ordered the
> > evacuation when he had over 1000 buses, that he never even tried to
> > budge).

>
> > The New Orleans contingency plan states, "The safe evacuation of
> > threatened populations is on of the principle reasons for developing a
> > Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But this was ignored.

>
> > Not preparing for people to be in the Dome for several days after the
> > storm. There was food and water in the Dome, but not enough for a
> > week. Asking people to bring food and water is not 'preparing'.

>
> The above rant has already been ably discounted.


What? It's been proven he didn't provide proper shelter.

> >> Look, we both know that'll be a waste of your time and mine.
> >> Desperately-Seeking Susan [question: does the S in wsthomas stand for
> >> Susan?], desperate to prove to himself/herself that he/she was right and
> >> everyone else is wrong about your boy george. Well, sonny/girly, you
> >> have seen, heard, read the truth numerous times, yet you still refuse to
> >> believe. So be it. Your loss. your inability to accept reality won't
> >> affect me even a little bit.

>
> > The reality is that, if you live below sea level and a hurricane is
> > comeing, get the **** out. It's YOUR responsibility. Nagin failed
> > his city. Blanco failed her state. The Federal response was the
> > fastest ever.

>
> bullshit. Arriving on site is not the same as taking action. Reread my
> previous comments twice more--a dozen times more, try to educate yourself.
>
> > And we've been paying for it ever since. Since when did it become
> > goverment's job to provide everyone with a house?

>
> since we became a nation. Brother helps brother. Society helps victims
> of disasters. Children are not allowed to go to bed hungry, without a
> roof to cover their heads. We give spare change to the indigent (BTW,
> many of those street bums are veterans of America's wars). Where's your
> compassion for the less fortunate?


My compassion takes the form of donations to charities, volunteering
at local schools, charities and re-building after hurricanes. It is
not the governments job to force charity.

> >>>> Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> >>>> his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> >>> Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> >>> protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> >>> classified as running and hiding)

>
> >> your ignorance is astounding. While the Towers burned, he was in FL,
> >> under his brother's protection, giving an emergency important political
> >> speech, to a group of 3rd graders--or perhaps it was for help reading
> >> his favorite novel, My Pet Goat? Look, the trip was a last-second
> >> surprise to even the members of the WH Press Corps (most of whom were
> >> left behind). Why so sudden, hmmm? Even you ought to wonder.

>
> > What, a president makes a photo op? That's a conspiracy?

>
> no advance notice given of the trip. Ergo, less Press to take the pretty
> pictures. And did you not notice the nervousness, the fear in Bush's
> eyes even before he was notified about the first
> Tower strike? No, you wouldn't: you'd rather blame it on his fear that
> he'd have to ask a 3rd grader for help pronouncing the big words.


What fear before the notification? I think your projecting based on
your hatred.

> >>> Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> >>> attack...right?

>
> >> Laughing at you, sonny. Standing on the precipice of one canyon, now
> >> you want to retreat to the safety of the cliffs of the Grand
> >> Canyon--careful there, sonny/girly, you are standing quite close to the
> >> precipice.

>
> > Oh, that such a big word for a ****ing idiot.

>
> Precipice--big word? How about this one:
> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious? Check its meaning and spelling if
> you like. Just click on this link:www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtracks/s/thesoundofmusiclyrics/


Why not go for a real word, Pneumonoutlramicroscopicsilicavulcaniosis
(actual word, spelling could be off).

> You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
> trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
> I feel it is a lost cause. For instance, the above sentence lacks a verb.


Gee, didn't know I was being graded.

> >> This too has been debated countless times.

>
> > And you conspiracy idiots are all ****ing...well, idiots.

>
> You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
> trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
> I feel it is a lost cause.


Yes, I have nothing to learn from ****ing idiots such as yourself.

> >> Two planes, yet three
> >> buildings collapse--

>
> > Could be, two collapsed from big assed airplanes barrelling into them
> > and the third from the damage inflicted by the falling of the first
> > two. Check out ALL the film of the day and you will realize that over
> > 10 floors of WTC 7 had been damaged with the damage going over 25%
> > into the structure.

>
> http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm
>
> Here's a snippet from that website:
> BBC Footage Shows Report On 911 Attack Describing Building #7's
> Collapse...23 Minutes BEFORE It Actually Occurred
>
> http://www.rense.com/general57/aale.htm
>
> http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/Grossmann/Four Horsemen/066 Fo...
> THE BUILDING SECURITY CONNECTION, MARVIN BUSH:
>
> NAMES: Marvin Bush, Barbara Bush, James Pierce, Securacom, Al Sabah
> family of Kuwait
>
> Marvin P. Bush, with other co-conspirators, knew and permitted the
> planting of bombs in the World Trade Center on or around September 8 and
> 9, 2001 for the purpose of destroying and pulverizing the World Trade
> Center twin towers on September 11, 2001 and killing several thousand
> innocent people.
>
> On Thursday before 9-11, building security removed the bomb-sniffing
> dogs that had been safeguarding the World Trade Center against bombs.
> Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been
> working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone
> threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
>
> On Saturday and Sunday before 9-11, the power was shut down in the twin
> towers and unidentified technicians ,,rewired" the buildings from the
> 50th floor upwards; it is obvious that this could have been an
> opportunity to plant demolition charges to later take the buildings down.


Okay, demolition prep takes months, charge installation takes weeks,
and a huge crew is involved. So, you're saying that literally
hundreds of people installed thousands of pounds of explosives in a
weekend, and no one noticed the destruction it takes to place these
charges (I guess they cleaned up...strange nobody notice huge amounts
of new plaster).

But, you claim hundreds of people could keep this a secret. Hell,
Bill couldn't even keep a blow-job secret, and that only involved 2
people.

> The private security company who was responsible for the security of the
> World Trade Center on 9-11-1 was Securacom, a Bush family company. On
> the Board of Directors of Securacom was Marvin P. Bush, one of President
> George W. Bush's brothers. This Bush family company was a joint venture
> with the ruling Al Sabah family of Kuwait.
>
> Barbara Bush has admitted that her son Marvin was in Manhattan at the
> World Trade Center when the buildings were taken down as if to
> supervise. A nephew of Barbara Bush, James Pierce, apparently was tipped
> off and vacated his office in the World Trade Center shortly before the
> very location of his office was hit and blown up in a huge explosion
> during one of the attacks.
>
> On Terror Tuesday, 9-11-1, bombs exploded in the World Trade Center and
> demolished the twin towers, killing over two thousand Americans. This
> was originally explained by Albert Turi, the New York Fire Department
> Security Chief, and numerous bomb experts, confirmed by dozens of
> eyewitnesses of the explosions,


These 'explosions' have been proven to be compression blasts.

> the seismic measurements of the
> explosions,


Disproven. Even the owners and operators of the seismographs admit
this.

> the original version of the mainstream TV videos
> (meticulously documented by Henrik Melvang, Denmark), the huge explosion
> blasts that rocked at least one helicopter and blew-up otherwise
> inexplicably huge dust clouds, etc.


Compression...proven.

> The bombs were apparently placed in
> the World Trade Center under the responsibility of a security company
> entitled "Securacom" that was controlled by the Bush family.


And your proof is?

> The melting point of iron is 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit; jet fuel
> (essentially just kerosene) has a flash point of 120 degrees Fahrenheit.


Flash point is not burning temp. The burning temp of Kerosene, open
air, is 500-599
 
wsthomas@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On Mar 20, 4:07 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 20, 12:07 am, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> (some paragraphs deleted for brevity)
>>>

>> deleted to disguise your inability to mount a cogent debate.
>>

>
> Actually, if you had checked it, I did not delete anything that
> required responses too. Nor did I delete anything from your last
> post, but from several posts back. The responses are getting
> inordinatly long.
>
>
>
>>>> This has been discussed at length for many many months. Tons of factual
>>>> data were presented, and you still make the same silly, baseless
>>>> arguments. You don't wear blinders?--alright, I'll give you that.
>>>> Apparently, though, like your esteemed president, you don't read
>>>> anything that's too difficult.
>>>>
>>>> If I provide the information once more, you still will not read it, or
>>>> if you do muddle through, your intellect will not be up to the task of
>>>> understanding it.
>>>>
>>>> I was out of town when Katrina hit MS Gulf Coast. My daughter and
>>>> family sat in stalled traffic for nearly 12 hours a few miles outside
>>>> Pensacola; their home was virtually destroyed. I had to threaten to
>>>> kick butt to get them to leave in time. So don't attempt to tell me a
>>>> goddamn thing about hurricanes.
>>>>
>>> It's a good thing you got your daughters family out. They took
>>> responsibility for their own safety. Most in New Orleans did not. How
>>> is this Bush's Fault?
>>>

>> You should have read my post before beginning to delete.
>>
>> Look, Katrina was a disaster. Like the T-shirt says, **** happens. Not
>> Nagin's fault, as you loudly proclaim, not altogether Bush's fault,
>> which I have not claimed. But more Bush's fault than any other person's.
>>

>
> How do you figure that? It's not Bush's responsibility to prepare the
> city and it's citizens for a Hurricane. It was Nagin's
> responsibility, clearly stated in the Hurricane Preparedness Plan (if
> you read it, you'll find there is no mention of getting federal help
> to prepare).
>
>



unfortunately for all of us, bush is the president. Natural disasters
are NATIONAL disasters.

>>>> The year before, the Media had a feast, blathering for hours about one
>>>> hurricane after another that either missed America entirely or rolled in
>>>> meek as a spring storm. When it could accurately be predicted precisely
>>>> where Katrina would hit land, and how terrible its power, those who had
>>>> transportation began to move north. But tens of thousands had no way out.
>>>>
>>> Yeah, because someone responsible, say like Nagin, didn't provide the
>>> available transportation. How is this Bush's fault? (of course, you
>>> ignore that most just didn't 'feel' like leaving)
>>>

>> I see you really are arrogant in your ignorance. Shall I repost all the
>> deleted material? would you read it this time? Perhaps if I use
>> Winword's grammar checker to dumb it down to a 3rd grader's reading
>> level?--you know, 3-word sentences, single syllable words. (i.e., "See
>> the levees break. See New Orleans drown." Or is that also too difficult
>> for your comprehension?)
>>

>
> i.e. See Nagin ****-up. See people not leave.
>
>


Read how Bush has cut funding for levee maintenance. Listen to the
National Weather Service announce that there's less than one chance in
three that the storm will strike New Orleans. See people make their own
life choices. Hear George proclaim, "Brownie you're doing a heckuva job."

A storm is on the way...people are fleeing, the roads are clogged (12-15
hours to drive 50 miles). Cops and firefighters and bus drivers and
sanitation workers and doctors are also jumping ship, more loyalty to
their families than to the city. About 20 years ago, Japanese were
asked, if a tsunami is approaching and you can either save your wife and
children or go warn your boss, which would you do?--about 90% said they
would first report to their employers. This ain't Japan. For Americans,
family comes first over everything else. How about you? Say you're a bus
driver, earning (in LA) about $8.50 per hour, a hurricane is coming,
everyone is encouraged to leave, your scared shitless wife has bundled
up your four kids and says, "Are you coming, or do I have to do this by
myself?"

I'm tiring of trying to educate a willfully ignorant bush-apologist.


>>>> Although its path was only an educated guess at that point, three days
>>>> before the storm hit land, Louisiana's Democratic governor made her
>>>> request for emergency aid official.
>>>>
>>> Actually, that's a lie. SHE declared LA a disaster are three days
>>> before hand, but she didn't ask BUSH to declare it a major
>>> disaster ,in order to release federal assistance, less than 48 hours
>>> before landfall.
>>>

>> Bullshit. Blanco's declaration was sent officially to the WH three full
>> days before the storm hit.
>>

>
> BLANCO's declaration declaring LA a disaster area was three days
> before. She didn't request BUSH to declare it a NATIONAL disaster
> area until TWO days before. Please check your fact.
>
>



produce a cite.


Aug 26, 2005
GOVERNOR BLANCO DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY

BATON ROUGE, LA--Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco today issued
Proclamation No. 48 KBB 2005, declaring a state of emergency for the
state Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat, carrying
severe storms, high winds, and torrential rain that may cause flooding
and damage to private property and public facilities, and threaten the
safety and security of the citizens of the state of Louisiana The state
of emergency extends from Friday, August 26, 2005, through Sunday,
September 25, 2005, unless terminated sooner.

The full text of Proclamation No. 48 KBB 2005 is as follows:

WHEREAS, the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and
Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., confers upon the governor of the
state of Louisiana emergency powers to deal with emergencies and
disasters, including those caused by fire, flood, earthquake or other
natural or man-made causes, in order to ensure that preparations of this
state will be adequate to deal with such emergencies or disasters and to
preserve the lives and property of the citizens of the state of Louisiana;

WHEREAS, when the governor finds a disaster or emergency has occurred,
or the threat thereof is imminent, R.S. 29:724(B)(1) empowers her to
declare the state of disaster or emergency by executive order or
proclamation, or both; and

WHEREAS, On August 26, 2005, Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat
to the state of Louisiana, carrying severe storms, high winds, and
torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property
and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the
citizens of Louisiana;

NOW THEREFORE I, KATHLEEN BABINEAUX BLANCO, Governor of the state of
Louisiana, by virtue of the authority vested by the Constitution and
laws of the state of Louisiana, do hereby order and direct as follows:

SECTION 1: Pursuant to the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency
Assistance and Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., a state of emergency
is declared to exist in the state of Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina
poses an imminent threat, carrying severe storms, high winds, and
torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property
and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the
citizens of the state of Louisiana;

SECTION 2: The state of Louisiana's emergency response and recovery
program is activated under the command of the director of the state
office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness to prepare for
and provide emergency support services and/or to minimize the effects of
the storm's damage.

SECTION 3: The state of emergency extends from Friday, August 26, 2005,
through Sunday, September 25, 2005, unless terminated sooner.

On August 26, during her Press Conference announcing her proclamation,
holding a copy of the official request in her hands, she publicly asked
Bush for Federal assistance.


>> Bush declared Louisiana, MS and AL a national
>> disaster area two full days before landfall. But as I said, 24 hours
>> before landfall, NWS still proclaimed only a 29% chance of it striking
>> New Orleans a direct blow. Actually, New Orleans was hardly damaged by
>> the storm--people poured out of their homes, hugging and crying and
>> laughing, another bullet had missed their beloved city. Then the levees
>> broke. The maintenance of which Bush had defunded shortly after taking
>> office.
>>
>>


I notice you ignore fact that you can't dispute. Ignore , root of
IGNORANCE . This is another example of your unadulterated willful
ignorance.


>>>> Nagin was doing his part
>>>> too--threatening, begging people to leave,
>>>>
>>> Yeah, if by 'threatening, begging' you mean he didn't declare a
>>> mandatory evacuation until less then 20 hours before landfall. How is
>>> this Bush's fault?
>>>

>> How is it Nagin's fault?
>> on the morning of the 28th, according to NWS experts, there was still a
>> 71% chance the storm would turn away from Louisiana and move on to Texas
>> or even Mexico. Any evacuation places a tremendous hardship on
>> governments, on businesses, and more importantly, on individuals.
>>

>
> Okay, evacuation places tremendous hardship on everybody, but then so
> does FLOOD, and anyone who lives in New Orleans knows this is a
> possibility.
>


estimated 90% of NO citizens didn't own an automobile. Sorta like NYC,
where everyone relies on public transportation. In NYC, because there's
no parking. In NO because there's no money.

>
>>>> begging for transportation
>>>> for his people.
>>>>
>>> Yeah, if by 'beggin for transportation' you mean 'not utilizing metro
>>> and school board busses he had access to'...how is this Bush's fualt?
>>>

>> how is this Bush's fualt [sic]? He didn't send even one more bus, not
>> one military transport, he didn't order commercial buses to take
>> evacuees, he didn't send in military helicopters to evacuate the hospitals.
>>

>
> BEFORE the hurricane (I see you intentionally misunderstood the
> statement) it is Nagin's responsiblity to handle the evacuation.
> Please take time to read the Hurricane Preparedness Plans for both the
> City of New Orleans and the state of LA. It points out specifically
> who is responsible. AFTER the storm, access was near impossible.
>
>


Damnit, is it necessary to explain dozens of times why 120,000 stranded
people couldn't be evacuated in a few hours by 300-500 buses???? Are you
really so ****ing stupid? Or are you so dishonest?

>> How is it Nagin's fault that all evacuations require all roads back in
>> to be turned into more roads out? 300...500...even 800 buses would have
>> been insufficient, because each bus could have made only one trip out,
>> and with only 50-70 people.
>>

>
> There would be that many more people out of harms way.
>
>


300 buses require 300 drivers. Kinda difficult to get a low-paid blue
collar employee to ignore his own family's needs in order to help his
employer.

>> If they could have gotten safely away
>> through the clogged highways. And you have to wonder, if the buses had
>> tried to run west to avoid the worst traffic snarl in history, would
>> they too have been stopped by armed bigots from neighboring parishes?
>>

>
> So, there were armed bigots out BEFORE the storm? You realize that it
> is better to evacuate BEFORE a storm than AFTER, right?
>


Probably were.
Stop ignoring my reply to the same damn rant you have repeated two dozen
times. My answer will not change. That you fail to comprehend or choose
to ignore (thereby remaining ignorant) is your problem. I won't keep
repeating myself.

>
>> school board busses [?] A buss is a kiss (as in a buss on the lips). I assume you meant "buses". but, in fairness, I'll give you this: since "buss" itself is a word, a spell checker wouldn't have caught your error.
>>
>>
>>>> But on August 28th--one day before landfall, according
>>>> to NWS experts, there was only a 29% probability that NO would receive a
>>>> direct hit.
>>>>
>>> And, as it turned out, it didn't receive a direct hit.
>>>

>> ah, so you admit this? So what created such a disaster? The broken
>> levees. The levees that Bush had cut the funding for.
>>

>
> Yeah, maybe he cut funding (and was not the first to do so) when he
> realized no improvements were getting done on the levess because New
> Orleans decided it needed a new bridge to it's casino, a $4 million
> statue and LA decided it needed a new senate building, all paid for
> with the levee funds.
>
>


the levee funds were controlled by corps of engineers, who were either
doing or supervising the work.


>>>> So, yes, some who could have left did not bother;
>>>>
>>> And this is Bush's fault, how?
>>>

>> this is Nagin's fault because?
>>

>
> Didn't claim it was. Some are not going to leave even under a
> mandatory evacuation. No one can be held responsible for their
> stupidity.
>
>


according to everything you have written, everything was Nagin and/or
Blanco's fault. Bush talks to god and god answers: why didn't he know in
june that Katrina was coming?

>>>> leaving would be
>>>> expensive, and who had any money to waste??
>>>>
>>> So, your family's security is based on the price of a tank of gas?
>>>

>> tank of gas? I take it you have never traveled 50 miles beyond family
>> and friends? Motels, up to $130 per day. Meals, up to $25 each, per
>> couple. Lost wages. Damage to homes that might have been prevented, had
>> someone been there to, for instance, tape busted windows; loss of
>> belongings to looters. And, yes, sometimes, just plain thrill seeking
>> kept some fools home.
>>

>
> During the evacuation for Ivan, I saw people that went north just far
> enough to get out of the storm, and then set up tents. I went to
> Memphis (16 hours), only because my wife wanted to. That was the only
> one I've ever evacuated for. Will never again.
>
>


See? Yet you condemn others for making the same choice? what hypocrisy.

>>>> and a waste it would have
>>>> been, if the storm had veered away at the last moment--after all, the
>>>> experts had been wrong lots of times.
>>>>
>>> So, they took and chance, and lost...Bush's fault how?
>>>

>> I notice that your argument has transmogrified from blaming Democrat
>> Nagin into defense of Bush's reputation. They "took and [sic] chance"
>> for the reasons listed above, and many more than are known only to the
>> individuals.
>>

>
> And no one can be blamed for what happens to them when they decide to
> put themselves in danger.
>
>


no one can be blamed because incompetent, uncaring mothers don't care
for their children. But the children are hungry and must be fed. you're
saying, **** 'em if they won't/can't leave. **** hungry children also?

>>>> And what of those with no way out?
>>>>
>>> It actually doesn't take a lot to get out of the flood area of New
>>> Orleans. You can walk it if you have to.
>>>

>> A foolish, disingenuous statement. Are you really so misinformed????
>> Armed deputies and shotgun-toting vigilantes stood guard at bridges to
>> the west.
>>

>
> Only AFTER the storm. I've spent time in New Orleans. 1) I would
> never stay during a thunder storm, much less a hurricane & 2) If
> you're halfway intelligent, you can get out BEFORE a storm.
>
>


"That was the only one I've ever evacuated for. Will never again."
Your comment. don't be such as blatant hypocrite.

80-90% of NO citizens did not own a vehicle. For the umpteenth time, had
they wanted to leave (and a large percentage--like you--did not wish to
evacuate), the city's resources were insufficient to transport them all
when there was such short notice. Remember, on the 28th, NWS reported
only a 29% chance that the city would be hit.



>> And, umm, you are aware, are you not, that Katrina's cone was
>> wide and deep and moving fast as a mother****er.
>>

>
> Strangely enough, I lived through it. I had plenty of time to
> prepare, and helped my extended family prepare.
>
>

oh, now you're claiming that you lived in NO?
>> The storm center made
>> landfall on the western edge of MS, but it still destroyed homes and
>> killed people as far to the East as Alabama, as far to the West as
>> Houston, farther to the North than Baton Rouge. What's your best walking
>> speed?
>>

>
> I was talking about walking out of the area of New Orleans that is
> below sea level (a bad place to be in a hurricane).
>
>


120,000 people walked out of that area, tried to cross the bridges and
were turned back. They either camped on the bridges or at the superdome.

>>>> Bus? 1,000 busloads onto already clogged interstates and local roads?
>>>>
>>> Another failure by the authorities of LA. They waited WAY to long
>>> before reversing flow on the interstates.
>>>

>> Your ignorance is astounding, especially for one who claims to have
>> lived through other hurricanes. The buses could not have taken all the
>> stranded to safety with one trip, and here you are suggesting that any
>> return trips for more passengers should have been prevented even earlier
>> by reversing the flow of all lanes in.
>>

>
> So, if you can't safe EVERYBODY, you shouldn't save ANYBODY? Kinda
> cold there.
>
>

disingenuous comment.
You see the films of the mob tearing down the fences of the American
embassy during the last hours of the Vietnam War? Should they have done
what that one $200 per day hotel did?--hire one bus to take out their
wealthy patrons, and **** everyone else?

Which argument do you want to pursue, pre-katrina, or post-katrina?
please make up your mind. The storm did very little damage to NO. After
the winds died, people poured onto the streets, high-fiving their good
sense in riding out the storm.
>> Remember, too, that bus drivers
>> and cops also have families they want to get to safety, and most had
>> money for travel, so almost all the bus drivers and a large percentage
>> of the cops and firemen took your advice and left long before the storm
>> hit.
>>

>
> Which is another failure of local government. Emergency services and
> support are not supposed to abandon the city, they are supposed to
> stay and help.
>
>


you are perfect, correct?--were you raised in Japan? Pal, like everyone
else, you would have first seen to the needs of your own family. They
were not in the Army; they had freedom of choice.

>> Additionally, do keep in mind the old adage: You can lead a cow to
>> water, but you can't make it drink if it isn't thirsty.
>>

>
> But do you blame the farmer when they don't drink?
>


LOl. Yet you are blaming Nagin, aren't you? That is what this thread was
originally about, wasn't it? You and other rightards jumping on Nagin
once again?
Thank you for supporting my argument.
>
>>>> So, when the storm struck, more than 100,000 survivors were stranded.
>>>> But NO was largely intact after the storm. It was what happened
>>>> afterwards that made it a tragedy.
>>>>
>>> This is true.
>>>

>> what happened afterward is clearly the fault of the Bush
>> administration's "discretionary spending" budget cuts. The rich needed
>> them tax cuts!
>>

>
> Yes, he was indeed 'discrete' in not supplying the government official
> with more money to line their pockets.
>
>


want to branch into ethics of politicians? I can supply a veeery long
list of Republicans who have been busted for ethics violations in the
recent past.

> Everyone got tax cuts...strangely enough, that mostly affected the
> people that pay the most taxes. Should we have found a way to give
> more tax cuts to people who don't pay taxes (you'd probably answer
> 'yes')?
>
>


You want to move off into this also? You're all over the place. I leave
on a long business trip tomorrow morning, so I won't be able to respond
to your reply to this.

Family income of $70,000, a tax cut of $300. $200,000 income, a tax cut
of $15,000. $1,000,000 and above income, a tax cut approaching $100,000.

If the purpose of the cuts was to kick start the economy, it made sense
to give it to the people who would spend it immediately for necessities.
As Warren Buffet remarked, 'My secretary paid higher taxes last year
than I did, and her yearly income is less than I spend on personal
luxuries in an average week. That is just flat wrong.'

>>>> Bush happened. Funds cut from the Corps of Engineers, so levees were
>>>> unable to withstand the load.
>>>>
>>> Those levees have been deemed insufficient to withstand a Cat 3
>>> hurricane since the 1960's. How is Bush responsible for this?
>>>

>> They weren't maintained at even a minimal level, thanks solely to Bush's
>> budget cuts.
>>

>
> They weren't being maintained even when they were fully funded, as the
> money was being diverted. There is a reason that LA is considered the
> most corrupt state.
>


Prove your claim. The Corps of Engineers is not under control of any
governor.

>
>>>> Surrounding townships sending armed
>>>> guards to keep people from escaping NO happened.
>>>>
>>> Well, being neighbors, maybe they had a pretty good idea of the people
>>> they would be getting and wanted to protect their own..of course, this
>>> does not make it right, but nor does it make it Bush's Fualt.
>>>

>> it makes it bigotry.
>>

>
> I would call it a sense of preservation.
>
>



bigotry.

The Nazis hardened their Camp guards by first transporting people like
cattle, standing room only--they **** themselves standing up, their
clothes were nasty, smelly, millionaires coming off those cattle cars
looked as if they had just left a Los Angeles housing project.

All people stranded on a bridge after a hurricane tend to look like
bums, like potential criminals. College professors, corporate CEOs in
the same circumstance would look like the lowest kind of human.


And what of the children? were they--would you be--afraid that toddlers
would pull a gun?


You're a goddamn bigot. Compassionate conservative, my ass.

>> Bush had the power to order those avenues of escape
>> left open--he had National Guard, armed Blackwater contractors and the
>> bully-pulpit of the presidency to force compliance. He did nothing. THAT
>> makes it Bush's fault.
>>

>
> Maybe he thought that using the National Guard to help save people was
> more important. Not to mention, the President does not have control
> over local police, Ever heard of the Posse Comitatus Act? t
> generally prohibits Federal military personnel and units of the United
> States National Guard under Federal authority from acting in a law
> enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly
> authorized by the Constitution or Congress.
>


you want to discuss pre- or post-Katrina?

He did expressly order the NG to act in violation of the PC. One ****ing
phone call would have opened the damned bridges. He too is a goddamn bigot.


>
>>>> Bush's FEMA and Bush's
>>>> Homeland Security happened. And people died needlessly due to your
>>>> president's inaction.
>>>>
>>> Again, FEMA was on scene within 24 hours, and had National Guard in
>>> the city within 3 days. This is far better than the five in normally
>>> takes.
>>>

>> Bullshit. Besides, "on scene" does not mean in action. Driving through
>> the rubble that was MS four days after the storm, the trucks were just
>> then beginning to roll south. Contrast this to the instantaneous
>> Federal response to hurricanes that struck FL during the past decade.
>>

>
> The best response after a hurricane in FL that I am aware of is about
> 5 days.
>
>


bullshit. Brownie performed so poorly after Katrina by design of Bush's
WH. You think it was an accident that he went on vacation just before
the storm hit?--he couldn't be reached (according to Card) and no one
else had the authority to order the Federal resources Brown requested.
When Bush goes on vacation, take cover--a disaster of some kind always
strikes shortly after Bush goes fishing.

>> Dick Cheney also earned criticism for his role in the aftermath. On the
>> night of August 30, and again the next morning, he personally called the
>> manager of the Southern Pines Electric Power Association and ordered him
>> to divert power crews to electrical substations in nearby Collins,
>> Mississippi that were essential to the operation of the Colonial
>> Pipeline, which carries gasoline and diesel fuel from Texas to the
>> Northeast. The power crews were reportedly upset when told what the
>> purpose of the redirection was, since they were in the process of
>> restoring power to two local hospitals, but did so anyway.
>>
>>



no defense of dick cheney? Don't blame you.

>> In January 2007, former FEMA director Michael D. Brown charged that
>> partisan politics had played a role in the White House's decision to
>> federalize emergency response to the disaster in Louisiana only rather
>> than along the entire affected Gulf Coast region, which Brown said he
>> had advocated. "Unbeknownst to me, certain people in the White House
>> were thinking, 'We had to federalize Louisiana because she's a white,
>> female Democratic governor, and we have a chance to rub her nose in
>> it,'" Brown said, speaking before a group of graduate students at the
>> Metropolitan College of New York on January 19, 2007. "'We can't do it
>> to Haley [Mississippi governor Haley Barbour] because Haley's a white
>> male Republican governor. And we can't do a thing to him. So we're just
>> gonna federalize Louisiana.'"
>>

>
> Or it could be that they had to federalize LA because it was a ****
> up, and not MS because it wasn't.
>
>

LA had 40' of water, and poor highway access. MS had a storm surge that
receded within hours after the storm moved on. More storm damage,
certainly. But less after-effects. Easier logistics.

>>>> Dumb dumb dumb. The evidence--the FACTS--were presented and you chose
>>>> to ignore. Ignore, root of the word ignorant. Willful ignorance,
>>>> synonymous with you Bush apologists.
>>>>
>>>>>> You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--
>>>>>>
>>>> The state you lived in? TX, FL, GA, or my state, MS? I am a
>>>> transplant, so my parents were not siblings. The entire 77-mile stretch
>>>> of MS coastline held a small portion of the population of NO's city
>>>> limits alone.
>>>>
>>>> A more affluent economic base;
>>>>
>>> i.e. Not Welfare trash.
>>>

>> you, sir, are a racist and an economic bigot.
>>

>
> On what do you base this bullshit opinion? I didn't mention color at
> any point? And yes, it is well known that New Orleans is a Welfare
> economy.
>
>


you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!

They judged the people stranded on the bridge by the color of their skin
and their filthy clothes.
>>>> more roads out (more
>>>> places to go) for a far more mobile population; no levees to break,
>>>>
>>> So, this is all geography...how is the geography Bush's fault? (the
>>> same geography that made it very difficult to get INTO New Orleans
>>> after the storm. remember, less roads out means less roads in,also).
>>>

>> How is it Nagin's fault????
>>

>
> You seem to have a habit of inferring things I don't say. I didn't
> say it was Nagin's fault, just pointed out that you can't hold Bush
> responsible for geography.
>


bullshit. you have been saying exactly that throughout this thread. The
entire thread, as a matter of fact, originated due to a rightarded
republicon smear of Democratic Mayor Nagin.

>
>> You keep trying to slip-slide away from your original rant, that
>> Democrats Nagin and Blanco deserve sole blame for the disaster.
>>

>
> I never claimed that, but after the individual's responsibility, it is
> the responsibility of the local and state authority, THEN the federal.
>
>


Sure you have been.
you have been saying exactly that throughout this thread. The entire
thread, as a matter of fact, originated due to a rightarded republicon
smear of Democratic Mayor Nagin.

>>>> so
>>>> when the wind died down and the waves receded, Mississippi's emergency
>>>> situation was largely over. A different situation entirely.
>>>>
>>>> So get down from your high hobby horse before you get a bloody nose. I
>>>> know this is a difficult blow to your pride. But accept it.
>>>> Mississippi fared better during the aftermath of Katrina due to the
>>>> logistics of the thing. Not your state's superiority. I live here too,
>>>> so I know from firsthand experience that the intellect and worth ethic
>>>> of Mississippians are not superior to those of neighboring states.
>>>>
>>> I would dissagree. I've been AL, MS & LA post katrina. In AL, MS and
>>> some of LA, they are working hard to rebuild. In New Orleans, they
>>> are sitting on their ass, waiting for the guv'mint money, watching the
>>> mexicans rebuiled their town)
>>>

>> will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
>> housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).
>>

>
> Yeah, that's why I don't live in a major metropolitan area. New
> Orleans is a city based on generational welfare.
>
>


no manufacturing base. A higher percentage of New Orleans' citizens work
for minimum wage than that of any other city in the US. Before you say
it, they could move to a better wage base. But the poor have nothing
else of value but their families. They don't leave, they cling together,
for the same reason that Brooklynites would rather live in a Brooklyn
slum among their family and friends than virtually alone in an Atlanta
townhouse.


I realize that your bigotry will prevent you from understanding what
I've just said.


>> One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
>> doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
>> that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.
>>

>
> I rebuilt my own home. But the majority of New Orleans would rather
> bitch about the guv'mint not providing for them. (My favorite Post
> Katrina Quote, "The guv'mints been taking care of me my whole life.
> For them to stop no is unconstitutionable.")
>
>


will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).
One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.

The vast majority of them HAD NO HOMES TO REBUILD. And the small
percentage that had homes, had neither money nor insurance to pay the
freight of rebuilding.

>>>> We cleaned up quicker, as I said, because we endured far far less
>>>> flooding,
>>>>
>>> I got six feet of flooding, how about you?
>>>

>> only three feet, inland fifteen miles from the ocean. it quickly
>> receded; how about yours?
>>

>
> 6 feet, about 40 miles from the gulf (not ocean), but only a few miles
> from the Bay.
>
>
>> NO got up to 40' in some areas, and it had to be pumped out, a process
>> that required more than a month.
>>

>
> See, not a good place to stay during a hurricane.
>



I won't bother responding again to this circular rant of yours. By now
you can probably quote my response to that by heart.

>
>>>> and help could get to us far far easier.
>>>>
>>> Strange, I don't remember help getting to my house for about 8 days.
>>> Of course, we had pretty much cleaned up what we could by then.
>>>

>> YOUR house. YOUR neighborhood.
>>

>
> Yes, mine. You see, me, and my neighbors, didn't sit on our asses
> waiting for assistance.
>
>


will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).
One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.




>>>> And perhaps most
>>>> importantly of all, a larger percentage of us owned our own homes (one
>>>> is more apt to repair one's own property as even a rightarded
>>>> Mississippian ought to realize).
>>>>
>>> Yeah, we were dumb enough to have something called 'insurance'...and
>>> we still have spent over $100K out of pocket (mainly becasue we
>>> decided it would be a good time to do improvements). And, although
>>> we've had massive amounts of damage, we STILL haven't received any
>>> goverment assistance.
>>>

>> State Farm blamed my roof damage on the central air (which runs two feet
>> below the roof). No money, not a dime for $12,00 in damage. State Farm
>> was not a "good neighbor."
>>

>
> I agree. State farm is really ****ing the people of MS...I hope that
> gets changed.
>
>


All insurance companies are ****ing everyone who gets in the way of a
natural disaster. ore regulation is needed of that dastardly industry.

>> BTW, one does not purchase insurance for housing projects and even your
>> own home if your income barely buys the groceries.
>>

>
> Yeah, maybe they should put down the crack pipe in order to better
> themselves. They are still responsible for their own safety.
>
>


your bigotry is astonishing but not surprising, coming from a republicon
bush apologist.
you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!
you see a black man or black woman or black child, you see crack addict!

They judged the people stranded on the bridge by the color of their skin
and their filthy clothes.



>>>> So wipe that smirk off your arrogant,
>>>> inbred face, bucko.
>>>>
>>> You like to infer that I am inbred. I'll just call you a '****ing
>>> idiot', you ****ing idiot.
>>>

>> you are a bigot: you earned the appellation by your refusal to assess
>> any of the blame to your boy George Bush.
>>

>
> So, in your idiot mind, 'supporting Bush' equals 'Bigot'...your hatred
> is noted.
>
>

your bigotry is astonishing but not surprising, coming from a republicon
bush apologist.
you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!
you see a black man or black woman or black child, you see crack addict!

They judged the people stranded on the bridge by the color of their skin
and their filthy clothes.





>> I imply ; you infer . (i.e., I inferred from your smug, racist rants
>> that you might be inbred, and then I implied that you might be inbred).
>>

>
> Either way, you're still a ****ing idiot.
>
>

an example of your low intellect is above. The above is also one example
of my wit and education.


>>>>> Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
>>>>> Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
>>>>> hurricane....EVER?
>>>>>
>>>> do you recall your uncle-daddy's name? the color of your mother-sister's
>>>> eyes?
>>>>
>>>> Do you recall that 75,000 people were stranded at the Superdome alone?
>>>>
>>> Yeah, maybe someone responsible should have provided more shelters
>>> (according to the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness plan, there
>>> should have been more and Nagin was in charge). How is this Bush's
>>> Fault?
>>>

>> Well, for one thing his tax cuts to the wealthy forced cuts in Federal
>> funds available to the States.
>>

>
> Actually, if you'd read up on it, tax cuts created the largest income
> for the IRS...ever.
>
>


Bush's $3.2 trillion in deficit spending may have had a bit to do with
that.


>> FEMA? After FL's last direct hit ( a mild hurricane, if there can be
>> such a thing), FEMA passed out checks, unasked, 200 miles north of the
>> damage zone. An investment in the next election, maybe?
>>

>
> I don't agree with paying people for a disaster with tax money. Some
> people around here managed to **** the gov. out of hundreds of
> thousands of dollars.
>



you can bet your ass that big business got the largest chunk of the
Katrina funds. For instance, all those trailers sitting around down
here? travel trailer size, retail cost about $15,000. Bush paid $68,000
to $98,000 for them and another $15,898 to have them moved 700 miles.
Transport cost should have been the $898, leaving $15,000 going into
someone's pocket for each trailer.
>
>>>> that cops refused to allow anyone to escape from NO into neighboring
>>>> towns?
>>>>
>>> Bush's cops?
>>>

>> Bush had the power to open the escape routes; he did nothing.
>>

>
> No, he didn't
>
>
>>>> that it was all lies that the poor of NO were raping and killing
>>>> one another at the Superdome and other places people were suffering
>>>> together?
>>>>
>>> Yes, it was bullshit, that was made up by the media? Is the Media
>>> Bush's fualt?
>>>

>> Possibly Rove's fualt [sic]. He is after all, Bush's personal Goebbels.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> that Media filmed cops threatening to kill people fleeing
>>>> destroyed stores with cans of food and loaves of moldy bread? that cops
>>>> and Blackwater contractors and, yes, a few National Guard amateurs did
>>>> in fact fire at and kill desperate people from helicopters and boats?
>>>>
>>> Yes, those 'deperate people' who had fired at the helicopters and
>>> boats FIRST. It's called 'self defense'.
>>>

>> Not one iota of evidence was ever presented that this happened. But when
>> YOUR child, YOUR grandmother is drowning, or has been stranded for four
>> days on a roof surrounded by floating corpses, and helicopters and
>> boats, cameras busily filming your grandmother's naked backside, pass
>> you by, might YOU be tempted to fire a shot into the air to get their
>> attention?
>>

>
> One copter was actully hit. But to you, I guess bullet holes in sheet
> metal are not 'evidence'.
>
>

cite that. And I again state (modified to reflect your undocumented claim:

when
YOUR child, YOUR grandmother is drowning, or has been stranded for four
days on a roof surrounded by floating corpses, and helicopters and
boats, cameras busily filming your grandmother's naked backside, pass
you by, might YOU be tempted to fire a shot at a helicopter to get their
attention?

>>>> Do
>>>> you recall that nearly two years after the storm, thousands of people
>>>> are still prohibited from reclaiming undamaged NO homes?
>>>>
>>>>>> your dishonesty is glaring brightly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
>>>>> so.
>>>>>
>>>> I have done so. You have been exposed to the facts in numerous
>>>> documentaries,
>>>>
>>> Yeah, supposedly Bowling for Columbine was a 'documentary', too.
>>>

>> sometimes the truth is painful for you rightards.
>>

>
> You haven't been presenting any truth.
>
>



I said: armed bigots prevented desperate people from escaping. TRUTH. I
said: NO lacked the resources to evacuate 120,000 people, and bush's
Feds did. TRUTH.
I said: Nagin cannot be blamed for people making wrong choices. TRUTH. I
said: Dozens of other predicted hurricanes had not materialized, so
people must be forgiven for thinking this one too might miss them.
TRUTH. Disprove any of the above. Not more of your bigoted, willfully
ignorant republicon rants. But evidence that disproves anything I've
just said.

>>>> news reports, congressional investigations
>>>>
>>> What were the criminal charges again? OH? Not any?
>>>

>> lots of levels of blame, dude. Bush has yet to be charged in a court of
>> law for his treasonous lies that got us involved in Iraq.
>>

>
> That's because you can't prove he 'lied' when in fact, he didn't.
>
>

branching into yet another direction to escape the hook you swallowed on
this one? No WMDs, no terrorist connection with Saddam Hussein--and a
list of experts longer than this post told him they would not be found.
Bush is either a goddamn liar or dumb as a stump.



>> Cheney has yet
>> to be charged for his treasonous outing of a top secret CIA operative.
>>

>
> It's been proven that Cheney is not the one who 'outed' her..it wasn't
> even Libby. (Try Armatage)
>


nothing of the sort has been proven. Cheney is in charge of the WH;
Bush, Armitage, Rove all worked for Cheney.


>
>> It's unlikely that they will be. It's about accountability, assigning
>> blame where blame is due.
>>
>>
>>>> and here on usenet.
>>>>
>>> Again, 'usenet' does not equate to facts..it equates to debate.
>>>

>> During the course of debate, skilled debaters conduct research and post
>> facts that support their viewpoints. I have presented you with facts
>> regarding bush's mishandling of the Katrina disaster; again, you will
>> choose to ignore the truth about your boy george. Ignore , root word of
>> ignorance .
>> The willful ignorance of a "compassionate" conservative.
>>

>
> Usually, on usenet, 'debate' is you presenting your lies.
>
>

I said: armed bigots prevented desperate people from escaping. TRUTH.
I said: NO lacked the resources to evacuate 120,000 people, and bush's
Feds did. TRUTH.
I said: Nagin cannot be blamed for people making wrong choices. TRUTH.
I said: Dozens of other predicted hurricanes had not materialized, so
people must be forgiven for thinking this one too might miss them. TRUTH.

Disprove any of the above. Not more of your bigoted, willfully ignorant
republicon rants. But evidence that disproves anything I've just said.




>>>> Yet you stubbornly, dishonestly refuse to accept what your
>>>> eyes have seen and your ears have heard and what the muted voice of your
>>>> conscience keeps trying to tell you is the truth about George Bush's
>>>> malfeasance and incompetence in office.
>>>>
>>> I'm not crazy about Bush. He was, in my opinion, the lesser of two
>>> evils. I dissagree with him on many things, but that does not make
>>> him responsible for the ineptness of New Orleans and LA.
>>>

>> Kerry was evil in what way?
>>

>
> Kerry was too damn wishy washy, changing based on the latest poles.
> He was, in my opinion, a traitor during Korea. His purple hearts were
> bullshit. to name a few.
>
>


you must occasionally listen to something other than Fox unNews.
O'Really, limbaugh, savage, hannity, they are all entertainers for the
stupid: they are not journalists.
KOREA? Gosh, you are overwhelming me with the power of your intellect.

You should stay out of this one, bucko. I'll eat your lunch on this one.
a tidbit: bush went AWOL; Kerry won medals fighting in VIETNAM.


>> You voted for Bush even though you knew in
>> 2004 that he had been a disaster as president merely because you lacked
>> the personal courage to reverse your previous defense of the incompetent
>> asshole. How sad for you.
>>

>
> I voted for Bush because I thought he was the best choice.
>
>


Ready to admit that you were wrong? No? didn't think so. You usenet
republicons lack the balls to admit your mistake.


>>>>>> I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
>>>>>> with a man lacking personal integrity.
>>>>>>
>>>>> i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.
>>>>>
>>>> Don't rant, provide evidence of Nagin's **** ups, then I will gladly
>>>> produce evidence refuting your every claim.
>>>>
>>> Nagin's **** Ups:
>>>
>>> Federal officials have faulted Nagin's administration for not
>>> marshaling its Regional Transit Authority buses and those of the
>>> School Board. When Nagin failed to follow the evacuation plan for New
>>> Orleans, he threw a HUGE monkey-wrench into the activities and
>>> responsibility of the Lousiana National Guard, who now had to shift
>>> gears to manage the masses converging on the Superdome. Mayor Nagin
>>> also miserably failed to implement the Hurricane Evacuation Plan for
>>> the city of New Orleans. He failed to evacuate those people that
>>> collected at city shelters via the buses he had at his disposal
>>> (ironically, within 24 hours of the levee breach, Nagin was in front
>>> of TV cameras blaming Bush for not sending buses, when he ordered the
>>> evacuation when he had over 1000 buses, that he never even tried to
>>> budge).
>>>
>>> The New Orleans contingency plan states, "The safe evacuation of
>>> threatened populations is on of the principle reasons for developing a
>>> Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But this was ignored.
>>>
>>> Not preparing for people to be in the Dome for several days after the
>>> storm. There was food and water in the Dome, but not enough for a
>>> week. Asking people to bring food and water is not 'preparing'.
>>>

>> The above rant has already been ably discounted.
>>

>
> What? It's been proven he didn't provide proper shelter.
>
>


did he know in advance that 120,000 people would need shelter? How much
of his taxpayer's money should he have spent laying in supplies --at a
commercial enterprise-- for a disaster that would not have happened had
bush strengthened the levees rather than abandon them???


>>>> Look, we both know that'll be a waste of your time and mine.
>>>> Desperately-Seeking Susan [question: does the S in wsthomas stand for
>>>> Susan?], desperate to prove to himself/herself that he/she was right and
>>>> everyone else is wrong about your boy george. Well, sonny/girly, you
>>>> have seen, heard, read the truth numerous times, yet you still refuse to
>>>> believe. So be it. Your loss. your inability to accept reality won't
>>>> affect me even a little bit.
>>>>
>>> The reality is that, if you live below sea level and a hurricane is
>>> comeing, get the **** out. It's YOUR responsibility. Nagin failed
>>> his city. Blanco failed her state. The Federal response was the
>>> fastest ever.
>>>

>> bullshit. Arriving on site is not the same as taking action. Reread my
>> previous comments twice more--a dozen times more, try to educate yourself.
>>
>>
>>> And we've been paying for it ever since. Since when did it become
>>> goverment's job to provide everyone with a house?
>>>

>> since we became a nation. Brother helps brother. Society helps victims
>> of disasters. Children are not allowed to go to bed hungry, without a
>> roof to cover their heads. We give spare change to the indigent (BTW,
>> many of those street bums are veterans of America's wars). Where's your
>> compassion for the less fortunate?
>>

>
> My compassion takes the form of donations to charities, volunteering
> at local schools, charities and re-building after hurricanes. It is
> not the governments job to force charity.
>
>


yeah, sure, I believe you. I have no reason to doubt you. I believe you
tithe your local church and donate cans of beans to food drives--of
course, that help goes to your fellow whites.

your bigotry is astonishing but not surprising, coming from a republicon
bush apologist.
you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!
you see a black man or black woman or black child, you see crack addict!



>>>>>> Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
>>>>>> his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
>>>>> protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
>>>>> classified as running and hiding)
>>>>>
>>>> your ignorance is astounding. While the Towers burned, he was in FL,
>>>> under his brother's protection, giving an emergency important political
>>>> speech, to a group of 3rd graders--or perhaps it was for help reading
>>>> his favorite novel, My Pet Goat? Look, the trip was a last-second
>>>> surprise to even the members of the WH Press Corps (most of whom were
>>>> left behind). Why so sudden, hmmm? Even you ought to wonder.
>>>>
>>> What, a president makes a photo op? That's a conspiracy?
>>>

>> no advance notice given of the trip. Ergo, less Press to take the pretty
>> pictures. And did you not notice the nervousness, the fear in Bush's
>> eyes even before he was notified about the first
>> Tower strike? No, you wouldn't: you'd rather blame it on his fear that
>> he'd have to ask a 3rd grader for help pronouncing the big words.
>>

>
> What fear before the notification? I think your projecting based on
> your hatred.
>


Watch the video of his FL 9/11 reading lesson closely. I don't hate
bush. His ineptitude is the best thing to happen to the Party of the
People since the last time Bill Clinton was elected.


>
>>>>> Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
>>>>> attack...right?
>>>>>
>>>> Laughing at you, sonny. Standing on the precipice of one canyon, now
>>>> you want to retreat to the safety of the cliffs of the Grand
>>>> Canyon--careful there, sonny/girly, you are standing quite close to the
>>>> precipice.
>>>>
>>> Oh, that such a big word for a ****ing idiot.
>>>

>> Precipice--big word? How about this one:
>> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious? Check its meaning and spelling if
>> you like. Just click on this link:www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtracks/s/thesoundofmusiclyrics/
>>

>
> Why not go for a real word, Pneumonoutlramicroscopicsilicavulcaniosis
> (actual word, spelling could be off).
>


Cute. You found a big word? doesn't devalue the spanking you deserved
for your inept attempt to ridicule a more intelligent, more
knowledgeable, more eloquent man--me.
>
>> You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
>> trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
>> I feel it is a lost cause. For instance, the above sentence lacks a verb.
>>

>
> Gee, didn't know I was being graded.
>
>


you received a failing grade.

>>>> This too has been debated countless times.
>>>>
>>> And you conspiracy idiots are all ****ing...well, idiots.
>>>

>> You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
>> trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
>> I feel it is a lost cause.
>>

>
> Yes, I have nothing to learn from ****ing idiots such as yourself.
>
>


you have received a deserved spanking for your inept attempt to ridicule
a more intelligent, more knowledgeable, more eloquent man--me. Learn
from it.

>>>> Two planes, yet three
>>>> buildings collapse--
>>>>
>>> Could be, two collapsed from big assed airplanes barrelling into them
>>> and the third from the damage inflicted by the falling of the first
>>> two. Check out ALL the film of the day and you will realize that over
>>> 10 floors of WTC 7 had been damaged with the damage going over 25%
>>> into the structure.
>>>

>> http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm
>>
>> Here's a snippet from that website:
>> BBC Footage Shows Report On 911 Attack Describing Building #7's
>> Collapse...23 Minutes BEFORE It Actually Occurred
>>
>> http://www.rense.com/general7/aale.htm
>>
>> http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/Grossmann/Four Horsemen/066 Fo...
>> THE BUILDING SECURITY CONNECTION, MARVIN BUSH:
>>
>> NAMES: Marvin Bush, Barbara Bush, James Pierce, Securacom, Al Sabah
>> family of Kuwait
>>
>> Marvin P. Bush, with other co-conspirators, knew and permitted the
>> planting of bombs in the World Trade Center on or around September 8 and
>> 9, 2001 for the purpose of destroying and pulverizing the World Trade
>> Center twin towers on September 11, 2001 and killing several thousand
>> innocent people.
>>
>> On Thursday before 9-11, building security removed the bomb-sniffing
>> dogs that had been safeguarding the World Trade Center against bombs.
>> Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been
>> working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone
>> threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
>>
>> On Saturday and Sunday before 9-11, the power was shut down in the twin
>> towers and unidentified technicians ,,rewired" the buildings from the
>> 50th floor upwards; it is obvious that this could have been an
>> opportunity to plant demolition charges to later take the buildings down.
>>

>
> Okay, demolition prep takes months, charge installation takes weeks,
> and a huge crew is involved. So, you're saying that literally
> hundreds of people installed thousands of pounds of explosives in a
> weekend, and no one noticed the destruction it takes to place these
> charges (I guess they cleaned up...strange nobody notice huge amounts
> of new plaster).
>


On Thursday before 9-11, building security removed the bomb-sniffing
dogs that had been safeguarding the World Trade Center against bombs.
Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been
working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone
threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

On Saturday and Sunday before 9-11, the power was shut down in the twin
towers and unidentified technicians ,,rewired" the buildings from the
50th floor upwards; it is obvious that this could have been an
opportunity to plant demolition charges to later take the buildings down.


demolition of LV casinos is accomplished in about 2 days, total--I've
watched documentaries about them.



> But, you claim hundreds of people could keep this a secret. Hell,
> Bill couldn't even keep a blow-job secret, and that only involved 2
> people.
>
>


Marvin Bush was in charge of the security of the Towers; the same man
owned both Towers and Bldg 7. Watch the film clip I provided the link
to. She's announcing that Bldg 7 has fallen--and behind her, it is still
standing!


>> The private security company who was responsible for the security of the
>> World Trade Center on 9-11-1 was Securacom, a Bush family company. On
>> the Board of Directors of Securacom was Marvin P. Bush, one of President
>> George W. Bush's brothers. This Bush family company was a joint venture
>> with the ruling Al Sabah family of Kuwait.
>>
>> Barbara Bush has admitted that her son Marvin was in Manhattan at the
>> World Trade Center when the buildings were taken down as if to
>> supervise. A nephew of Barbara Bush, James Pierce, apparently was tipped
>> off and vacated his office in the World Trade Center shortly before the
>> very location of his office was hit and blown up in a huge explosion
>> during one of the attacks.
>>
>> On Terror Tuesday, 9-11-1, bombs exploded in the World Trade Center and
>> demolished the twin towers, killing over two thousand Americans. This
>> was originally explained by Albert Turi, the New York Fire Department
>> Security Chief, and numerous bomb experts, confirmed by dozens of
>> eyewitnesses of the explosions,
>>

>
> These 'explosions' have been proven to be compression blasts.
>
>


from kerosene? Bullshit. Study metallurgy. Kerosene doesn't burn hot
enough to bring down a skyscraper.

>> the seismic measurements of the
>> explosions,
>>

>
> Disproven. Even the owners and operators of the seismographs admit
> this.
>
>



so produce a cite.

>> the original version of the mainstream TV videos
>> (meticulously documented by Henrik Melvang, Denmark), the huge explosion
>> blasts that rocked at least one helicopter and blew-up otherwise
>> inexplicably huge dust clouds, etc.
>>

>
> Compression...proven.
>
>
>

proven to the willfully foolish.

prove it.


>> The bombs were apparently placed in
>> the World Trade Center under the responsibility of a security company
>> entitled "Securacom" that was controlled by the Bush family.
>>

>
> And your proof is?
>
>


look it up. Marvin Bush was CEO/operations manager of Securacom until a
few days before 9/1l; he resigned from the company 's board quite suddenly.


>> The melting point of iron is 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit; jet fuel
>> (essentially just kerosene) has a flash point of 120 degrees Fahrenheit.
>>

>
> Flash point is not burning temp. The burning temp of Kerosene, open
> air, is 500-599°F, the maximun burning temp is 1796°F. Add wood, paper
> and platics, you get a hotter fire.
>


flash point is the point that it flames. Wood, paper, plastics all have
a much much lower flash point. A smoldering cigarette will light a
newspaper. Poof!--it's gone.


> Plus, it is your strawman that the steel must melt. It didn't have
> to. Steel weakens dramatically (looses ~80% of its cold strength) at
> about 1470°F.
>
>

you're talking to a former certified welder. You can't teach me about
metals. and if it had "weakened" that much, what do you think would
happen? Collapse straight down?. no my man, like a tree, it falls to its
weakest side. Cut straight through with a cutting torch (temp about 3500
degrees, a few hundred degrees hotter than the melting point of steel),
yeah, if supported by a chain at its top, a steel column will drop
straight down. You can easily find photos of the rubble showing columns
standing in the center, their tops about 75' from the basement floor
cleanly cut.


>> The buildings collapsed straight down, as in commercial demolitions. I
>> suggest you watch this short video:
>>

>
> Well, gravity kinda works down. When failure results in a pancaking
> action, things tend to go down.
>


you can easily find examples of collapsed steel structure bldgs that did
not fall straight down. You will not find one more example of one that
did. Only those three in the entire history of tall steel structure bldgs.


> BTW, while you had virtually no credibility to begin with, support the
> 9/11 conspiracy theories proves you have none.
>
>


your refusal to even examine the issue proves your willful ignorance.


>> http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm
>>
>>
>>>> straight down,
>>>>
>>> You want them to fall up, maybe?
>>>

>> A smart ass comment is all you can muster to counter my argument?
>>

>
> Well, seeing as all the credible science and investigation states that
> there is nothing to these hoax bullshit theories, what else needs to
> be said?
>
>


oh, I see, if it counters the official version it is not credible?

http://www.rense.com/general62/zxero.htm
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635160132,00.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/090207broughtdown.htm
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread182861/pg1
http://www.serendipity.li/wtc5.htm

- A plane hits tower #1, blowing a hole in it high up. The expected
things then happen:

- The building stays up. A reinforced concrete building is extremely
strong. Terrorists set off a large bomb inside that building without
significant damage. ...

- The second plane hits the second tower, lower and moving faster. It
blows a bigger hole through it, showering debris on the street, but the
building is clearly still standing and still looks quite solid.

- The second building begins burning, also from the impact point up.

- Perhaps a half hour later, the fire in the first building goes out .
It is still smoldering and letting off black smoke, but there is no
flame. ...

- The fire in the second building goes out.

- Then, later, the second building suddenly crumbles into dust, in a
smooth wave running from the top of the building (above the burned part)
down through all the stories at an equal speed. The debris falls
primarily inward. The tower does not break off intact and collapse into
other buildings. ... The crumbling comes from the top (above the
damage). It moves at a uniform rate. All of the structural members are
destroyed in a smooth pattern, so there is no remaining skeleton. The
damage is uniform, symmetric, and total.

In summary, it looks exactly like a demolition — because that's what it is.

- The first tower collapses in a similar demolition wave.

There's no doubt that the planes hit the building and did a lot of
damage. But look at the footage — those buildings were demolished . To
demolish a building, you don't need all that much explosive but it needs
to be placed in the correct places (in direct contact with the
structural members) and ignited in a smooth, timed sequence. ...

.......

Television viewers watching the horrific events of Sept. 11 saw evidence
of explosions before the towers collapsed. Televised images show what
appears to be a huge explosion occurring near ground level, in the
vicinity of the 47-story Salomon Brothers Building, known as WTC 7,
prior to the collapse of the first tower.

... One eyewitness whose office is near the World Trade Center told AFP
that he was standing among a crowd of people on Church Street, about
two-and-a-half blocks from the South tower, when he saw "a number of
brief light sources being emitted from inside the building between
floors 10 and 15." He saw about six of these brief flashes, accompanied
by "a crackling sound" before the tower collapsed. Each tower had six
central support columns.

One of the first firefighters in the stricken second tower, Louie
Cacchioli, 51, told People Weekly on Sept. 24: "I was taking
firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to
evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there
were bombs set in the building."

Kim White, 32, an employee on the 80th floor, also reported hearing an
explosion. "All of a sudden the building shook, then it started to sway.
We didn't know what was going on," she told People. "We got all our
people on the floor into the stairwell ... at that time we all thought
it was a fire ... We got down as far as the 74th floor ... then there
was another explosion." — Eyewitness Reports Persist Of Bombs At WTC
Collapse <http://www.rense.com/general17/eyewitnessreportspersist.htm>




>>>> the only three steel skyscrapers in
>>>> the history of man to implode without help from strategically placed
>>>> explosives.
>>>>
>>> WTC's 1 & 2 were not steel frame buildings. They were designed as
>>> what is known as verticcal fenestration. Otherwise knows as a
>>> perforated steel bearing-wall system. Why do you lie so much?
>>>

>> steel melting point 2,750 degrees, the heat of the burning kerosene,
>> only 120 degrees.
>>

>
> FLASHPOINT (not burning temp) of about 100°F. BURNING TEMP(open air)
> of about 500°-599°F. MAX BURNING TEMP of about 1796°F. Check out a
> MSDS sometimes (or, run a flashpoint).
>



bullshit. your facts are dead wrong.
> Temp at which steel loses 80% of strength....1470°. Temperatures of
> 1000° F can cause buckling and temperatures of 1500° F can cause steel
> to lose strength and collapse.
>
> Please quit claiming that the steel had to melt...this was not
> necessary for structural failure. It is a pitiful strawman.
>
>


why in the history of steel bldgs on the entire planet, only those three
bldgs dropped straight down?

Your facts are wrong. read the cites I've provided.



>>> And they did not 'implode', they collapsed.
>>>

>> they imploded. prove they did not.
>>

>
> Actually, as I am going by science & physics, it is up to YOU to prove
> that they DID.
>
>


LOL. you make a claim, it is up to you to back it up. I have backed up
my viewpoint. you merely rant.


>>> Nor is it true that no other steel skyscrapers have collapsed without
>>> the help from strategically placed explosives
>>>

>> prove even one has done so.
>>

>
> McCormick Place exhibition hall in Chicago collapsed in 1967 only 30
> minutes after the start of a small electrical fire.
>
> January 28, 1997, in the Lancaster County, Pennsylvania township of
> Strasburg, a fire caused the collapse of the state-of-the-art, seven
> year old Sight and Sound Theater.
>
> There's two...and they didn't even suffer collision damage....you
> loose.
>
>


they did not collapse straight down.


>>> (and, how pray tell,
>>> would such explosives 1) be placed without someone's knowledge and 2)
>>> without someone noticing..it would take thousands of pounds, which
>>> would be difficult to hide and would take months to place)
>>>

>> http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/Grossmann/Four Horsemen/066 Fo...
>> THE BUILDING SECURITY CONNECTION, MARVIN BUSH:
>>
>> browse the website.
>>
>>
>>>> Cheney, ordering the Air Force to stand down that morning,
>>>>
>>> Okay, you have evidence of this?
>>>

>> This article appears in the September 19, 2003 issue of Executive
>> Intelligence Review.
>> Cheney's Role in 9/11
>> Put on Center Stage by British MP
>> by Mark Burdman
>>
>> For the first time, a prominent British political figure has aired his
>> suspicions, that the group around U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney may
>> have intentionally caused, or allowed to happen, the mega-terrorism in
>> New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001, to set into motion an era of
>> neo-imperial wars. Labour Party Member of Parliament Michael Meacher
>> wrote a major feature focusing on Cheney's Project for a New American
>> Century grouping, in the London Guardian on Sept. 6. Meacher had
>> resigned in June as Environment Minister, a post he held in Tony Blair's
>> government for six years. This Summer's political wars in Britain, as
>> EIR forecast they would, are drawing ever closer to Cheney. This is the
>> context in which Meacher took Blair to task for subordinating Britain's
>> interests to Cheney and his neo-conservative gang in Washington.
>>

>
> Okay, he 'aired his suspicions'....suspicions are not proof.
>
>


there's no proof that anyone other than oswald killed JFK, but there
sure as hell is reason for suspicion. When governments are involved, and
governments have the power to suppress investigation, there won't be proof.


>> Wargames Were Cover For the Operational Execution of 9/11
>>
>> Alex Jones & Paul Joseph Watson | Updated September 20 2004
>>
>> UPDATE: Alex Jones Discusses 9/11 Wargames in April 2004 Video
>>
>> For almost three years since 9/11 independent researchers have
>> stockpiled individual smoking guns which prove that the official version
>> of events was not only a lie but operationally impossible.
>>
>> However, no single smoking gun has yet been forwarded to explain why air
>> defenses categorically reversed Standard Operating Procedure and failed
>> to respond to hijacked jetliners.
>>
>> Until now. More and more individuals are looking at the facts and
>> highlighting exercise drills that took place on the morning of 9/11.
>>
>> It is clear that at least five if not six training exercises were in
>> operation in the days leading up to and on the morning of 9/11. This
>> meant that NORAD radar screens showed as many as 22 hijacked airliners
>> at the same time. NORAD had been briefed that this was part of the
>> exercise drill and therefore normal reactive procedure was forestalled
>> and delayed.
>>
>> The large numbers of 'blips' on NORAD screens that displayed both real
>> and 'drill' hijacked planes explain why confused press reports emerged
>> hours after the attack stating that up to eight planes had been
>> hijacked. Click here for that article.
>>
>> http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2004/080904wargamescove...
>>
>>
>>>> bush ordering the Air Force to permit two planes filled to overflowing
>>>> with members of the bin Laden family to fly home to the home of all 19
>>>> terrorists.
>>>>
>>> This bullshit theory has been debunked.
>>>

>> it is FACT. what part of it are you denying? that all but one of the
>> hijackers were Saudi citizens?
>>

>
> This is a fact.
>
>
>> or that members of the bin Laden family
>> were permitted to fly home when all US citizens were grounded?
>>

>
> This has been debunked. No flights of saudi nationals were permitted
> while all US citizens were grounded.
>
>


bullshit. that was well documented. Bush owned up to it. they were
"fully vetted" by the FBI before being allowed to depart.

>> Could it be that Osama himself was aboard one of those planes? We'll
>> never know now, will we: Bush's presidential order allowing them to
>> leave American airspace made sure of that.
>>

>
> All flights that were chartered by Saudi national that left (AFTER
> flights had be resumed) had all the passengers interviewed by
> authorities before they left.
>


We have only bush's word for that, and you know how reliable his word
is. I won't bother trying to find it tonight, but one FBI agent
complained that the only access they were permitted to the bin ladens
was through one of their bodyguards; they did not get an audience with
any of the family.


>
>>>> I could go on. but I
>>>>
>>> Yes, I'm sure you COULD go on spouting false bullshit all day long.
>>>

>> Disprove anything I have written. Otherwise, you will have to remain in
>> the eyes of this newsgroup's auspicious readers either honestly ignorant
>> of the facts or just plain dishonest.
>>

>
> Your bullshit strawman about steel melting, when it in fact did not
> have to melt, but only weaken.
>


prove it.

> Your bullshit claims that the Bin Laden family flew when others were
> grounded has been disproven (that makes it dishonest).
>



then produce the proof.
> Your claim that 'no other steel frame building had collapsed due to
> fire' was easy to disprove.
>


not proven the fell straight down--and actually, not proven--only
stated-- that they fell at all.


> Your claim of 'seismic measurements of the explosions' had been
> disproven, by the very people who own and operate the seismographs.
>
>


prove it.

> Your claim that Bush is solely responsible for the condition of the
> Levees was disproven in the fact that they were deemed unsafe in the
> 60's.
>

the administration was repeatedly warned NOT to cut Corps of Engineering
funding for the levees. They did anyway.


> Your claim that Bush is responsible for the evacuation of citizens
> before a hurricane.
>


I did not claim that. I said Nagin was not solely responsible as YOU
claimed. That **** happens. that it is impossible to quickly evacuate
major cities. Bush failed in HIS responsibilities. While Rome burned,
Nero fiddled. While NO drowned, Bush went fishing.


> Your claim that Cheney outed Plame when it was in fact, Armitage.
>
>


Who does armitage take his orders from? who does bush take his from?
dead-eye dick cheney.

> YolBolsun,
> Grendel.
>
> "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers."-
> SOlomon Short.
>
>
>> tired of getting your ass kicked yet?
>>

>
> You've yet to demonstrate any 'ass kicking'. You've had yours handed
> to you a couple of times, though.
>



Silly boy, I have cited everything I have claimed. you have ineloquently
ranted. Not one shred of evidence to back up any OPINION you have
expressed. You have demonstrated your bigotry.
Your low intellect and poor education. And your blatant hypocrisy.

I said: armed bigots prevented desperate people from escaping. TRUTH.
I said: NO lacked the resources to evacuate 120,000 people, and bush's
Feds did. TRUTH.
I said: Nagin cannot be blamed for people making wrong choices. TRUTH.
I said: Dozens of other predicted hurricanes had not materialized, so
people must be forgiven for thinking this one too might miss them. TRUTH.

Disprove any of the above. Not more of your bigoted, willfully ignorant
republicon rants. But evidence that disproves anything I've just said.





--
fas-cism (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.
-- The American Heritage Dictionary



"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is...I think it's also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn."
------George W. Bush to the Houston Chronicle, April 9th, 1999
 
On Mar 22, 2:33 am, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
> wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > On Mar 20, 4:07 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> >> wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:

>
> >>> On Mar 20, 12:07 am, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> >>> (some paragraphs deleted for brevity)

>
> >> deleted to disguise your inability to mount a cogent debate.

>
> > Actually, if you had checked it, I did not delete anything that
> > required responses too. Nor did I delete anything from your last
> > post, but from several posts back. The responses are getting
> > inordinatly long.

>
> >>>> This has been discussed at length for many many months. Tons of factual
> >>>> data were presented, and you still make the same silly, baseless
> >>>> arguments. You don't wear blinders?--alright, I'll give you that.
> >>>> Apparently, though, like your esteemed president, you don't read
> >>>> anything that's too difficult.

>
> >>>> If I provide the information once more, you still will not read it, or
> >>>> if you do muddle through, your intellect will not be up to the task of
> >>>> understanding it.

>
> >>>> I was out of town when Katrina hit MS Gulf Coast. My daughter and
> >>>> family sat in stalled traffic for nearly 12 hours a few miles outside
> >>>> Pensacola; their home was virtually destroyed. I had to threaten to
> >>>> kick butt to get them to leave in time. So don't attempt to tell me a
> >>>> goddamn thing about hurricanes.

>
> >>> It's a good thing you got your daughters family out. They took
> >>> responsibility for their own safety. Most in New Orleans did not. How
> >>> is this Bush's Fault?

>
> >> You should have read my post before beginning to delete.

>
> >> Look, Katrina was a disaster. Like the T-shirt says, **** happens. Not
> >> Nagin's fault, as you loudly proclaim, not altogether Bush's fault,
> >> which I have not claimed. But more Bush's fault than any other person's.

>
> > How do you figure that? It's not Bush's responsibility to prepare the
> > city and it's citizens for a Hurricane. It was Nagin's
> > responsibility, clearly stated in the Hurricane Preparedness Plan (if
> > you read it, you'll find there is no mention of getting federal help
> > to prepare).

>
> unfortunately for all of us, bush is the president. Natural disasters
> are NATIONAL disasters.


Yes, but the federal government is not the one responsible for
preparing an area for natural disasters. Check any Hurricane
Preparedness Plan for any city on the Gulf Coast, you will find it
spells out who does what...and the federal government is usually not
referred to for preparations.

> >>>> The year before, the Media had a feast, blathering for hours about one
> >>>> hurricane after another that either missed America entirely or rolled in
> >>>> meek as a spring storm. When it could accurately be predicted precisely
> >>>> where Katrina would hit land, and how terrible its power, those who had
> >>>> transportation began to move north. But tens of thousands had no way out.

>
> >>> Yeah, because someone responsible, say like Nagin, didn't provide the
> >>> available transportation. How is this Bush's fault? (of course, you
> >>> ignore that most just didn't 'feel' like leaving)

>
> >> I see you really are arrogant in your ignorance. Shall I repost all the
> >> deleted material? would you read it this time? Perhaps if I use
> >> Winword's grammar checker to dumb it down to a 3rd grader's reading
> >> level?--you know, 3-word sentences, single syllable words. (i.e., "See
> >> the levees break. See New Orleans drown." Or is that also too difficult
> >> for your comprehension?)

>
> > i.e. See Nagin ****-up. See people not leave.

>
> Read how Bush has cut funding for levee maintenance.


Maybe you'd like to check out the new report released by the LSU
Hurricane Center this Wednesday (just read about it myself). It
places the blame for the Levee failures on the Army Corps of Engineers
Team Louisiana and decades of mistakes such as:
1) Errors in the original plans in 1965, which relied on land height
measurements from 1929 (the city had sunk since then).
2) Same mistake was 'locked in' for continuing constructions by a
policy adopted in 1985 (even though scientist knew how fast NO was
sinking).
3) Failure by the corps to utilize a storm surge model released in
1979 by the National Hurricane Center.
4) Ignoring its own models that suggested that the Mississippi River
Gulf Outlet, completed in the early 1960s, would funnel storm surge
into St. Bernard Parish and New Orleans.
5) Ignoring soil strength analysis available since the 1950s.

Strangely, they didn't mention lack of funding anywhere.


> Listen to the
> National Weather Service announce that there's less than one chance in
> three that the storm will strike New Orleans. See people make their own
> life choices.


See people having to live with those life choices.

> Hear George proclaim, "Brownie you're doing a heckuva job."
>
> A storm is on the way...people are fleeing, the roads are clogged (12-15
> hours to drive 50 miles). Cops and firefighters and bus drivers and
> sanitation workers and doctors are also jumping ship, more loyalty to
> their families than to the city.


For which they should be fired. If they are intelligent enough to
hold the job, they should be intelligent enough to make plans to cover
their jobs and provide for their family's evacuation, too.

> About 20 years ago, Japanese were
> asked, if a tsunami is approaching and you can either save your wife and
> children or go warn your boss, which would you do?--about 90% said they
> would first report to their employers. This ain't Japan. For Americans,
> family comes first over everything else. How about you? Say you're a bus
> driver, earning (in LA) about $8.50 per hour,


I wouldn't have such a low paying job.

> a hurricane is coming,
> everyone is encouraged to leave, your scared shitless wife has bundled
> up your four kids and says, "Are you coming, or do I have to do this by
> myself?"


Nor would I marry someone who was that incompetent. BUT, if it were
my responsibility, I would stay and accomplish what I have signed up
for. Such thinking is why I am a member of the volunteer fire
department and a member of my company's Fire Team and Emergency
Response and Incident Management team.

> I'm tiring of trying to educate a willfully ignorant bush-apologist.


All you're trying to do is put forth bullshit ideas, unsuccessfully,
at that.

> >>>> Although its path was only an educated guess at that point, three days
> >>>> before the storm hit land, Louisiana's Democratic governor made her
> >>>> request for emergency aid official.

>
> >>> Actually, that's a lie. SHE declared LA a disaster are three days
> >>> before hand, but she didn't ask BUSH to declare it a major
> >>> disaster ,in order to release federal assistance, less than 48 hours
> >>> before landfall.

>
> >> Bullshit. Blanco's declaration was sent officially to the WH three full
> >> days before the storm hit.

>
> > BLANCO's declaration declaring LA a disaster area was three days
> > before. She didn't request BUSH to declare it a NATIONAL disaster
> > area until TWO days before. Please check your fact.

>
> produce a cite.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina

Friday, August 26, 2005: Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco declared a
state of emergency for the state of Louisiana.

Saturday, August 27, 2005: Governor Blanco sends a letter to President
George W. Bush asking him to declare a major disaster for the State of
Louisiana, in order to release federal assistance.


> Aug 26, 2005
> GOVERNOR BLANCO DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY
>
> BATON ROUGE, LA--Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco today issued
> Proclamation No. 48 KBB 2005, declaring a state of emergency for the
> state Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat, carrying
> severe storms, high winds, and torrential rain that may cause flooding
> and damage to private property and public facilities, and threaten the
> safety and security of the citizens of the state of Louisiana The state
> of emergency extends from Friday, August 26, 2005, through Sunday,
> September 25, 2005, unless terminated sooner.
>
> The full text of Proclamation No. 48 KBB 2005 is as follows:
>
> WHEREAS, the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and
> Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., confers upon the governor of the
> state of Louisiana emergency powers to deal with emergencies and
> disasters, including those caused by fire, flood, earthquake or other
> natural or man-made causes, in order to ensure that preparations of this
> state will be adequate to deal with such emergencies or disasters and to
> preserve the lives and property of the citizens of the state of Louisiana;
>
> WHEREAS, when the governor finds a disaster or emergency has occurred,
> or the threat thereof is imminent, R.S. 29:724(B)(1) empowers her to
> declare the state of disaster or emergency by executive order or
> proclamation, or both; and
>
> WHEREAS, On August 26, 2005, Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat
> to the state of Louisiana, carrying severe storms, high winds, and
> torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property
> and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the
> citizens of Louisiana;
>
> NOW THEREFORE I, KATHLEEN BABINEAUX BLANCO, Governor of the state of
> Louisiana, by virtue of the authority vested by the Constitution and
> laws of the state of Louisiana, do hereby order and direct as follows:
>
> SECTION 1: Pursuant to the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency
> Assistance and Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., a state of emergency
> is declared to exist in the state of Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina
> poses an imminent threat, carrying severe storms, high winds, and
> torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property
> and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the
> citizens of the state of Louisiana;
>
> SECTION 2: The state of Louisiana's emergency response and recovery
> program is activated under the command of the director of the state
> office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness to prepare for
> and provide emergency support services and/or to minimize the effects of
> the storm's damage.
>
> SECTION 3: The state of emergency extends from Friday, August 26, 2005,
> through Sunday, September 25, 2005, unless terminated sooner.


Thank you for proving my point. This declaration only concerns the
STATE and only activates STATE assets.

It wasn't until Saturday (or Sunday depending on the source) that she
officially requested FEDERAL assistance.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/weather/july-dec05/katrina/fema_background.html
"As Katrina threatened the Gulf Coast, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco
issued a state of emergency on Aug. 26 and on Aug. 28 sent a letter to
President Bush requesting a disaster declaration for the state in
order to release federal assistance. "

> On August 26, during her Press Conference announcing her proclamation,
> holding a copy of the official request in her hands, she publicly asked
> Bush for Federal assistance.


Okay, even if this were true, waving a STATE proclamation of Emergency
and 'publicly' asking for federal assistance is not the same as
OFFICIALLY asking for federal assistance, which the President has to
wait for. This was accomplished on either the 27th or 28th.

> >> Bush declared Louisiana, MS and AL a national
> >> disaster area two full days before landfall. But as I said, 24 hours
> >> before landfall, NWS still proclaimed only a 29% chance of it striking
> >> New Orleans a direct blow. Actually, New Orleans was hardly damaged by
> >> the storm--people poured out of their homes, hugging and crying and
> >> laughing, another bullet had missed their beloved city. Then the levees
> >> broke. The maintenance of which Bush had defunded shortly after taking
> >> office.

>
> I notice you ignore fact that you can't dispute. Ignore , root of
> IGNORANCE . This is another example of your unadulterated willful
> ignorance.


Please see above cite of report by the Deputy Director of the LSU
Hurricane Center. You will find that the levees have been incapable
of handling a Cat 3 hurricane since the 1960s.

> >>>> Nagin was doing his part
> >>>> too--threatening, begging people to leave,

>
> >>> Yeah, if by 'threatening, begging' you mean he didn't declare a
> >>> mandatory evacuation until less then 20 hours before landfall. How is
> >>> this Bush's fault?

>
> >> How is it Nagin's fault?
> >> on the morning of the 28th, according to NWS experts, there was still a
> >> 71% chance the storm would turn away from Louisiana and move on to Texas
> >> or even Mexico. Any evacuation places a tremendous hardship on
> >> governments, on businesses, and more importantly, on individuals.

>
> > Okay, evacuation places tremendous hardship on everybody, but then so
> > does FLOOD, and anyone who lives in New Orleans knows this is a
> > possibility.

>
> estimated 90% of NO citizens didn't own an automobile. Sorta like NYC,
> where everyone relies on public transportation.


Might have been a good idea to use public transportation to evacuate,
then...you know, as called for in the Hurricane Preparedness Plan.

> In NYC, because there's
> no parking. In NO because there's no money.


So, you're saying that people in New Orleans are incapable of making
money? How racist of you.

> >>>> begging for transportation
> >>>> for his people.

>
> >>> Yeah, if by 'beggin for transportation' you mean 'not utilizing metro
> >>> and school board busses he had access to'...how is this Bush's fualt?

>
> >> how is this Bush's fualt [sic]? He didn't send even one more bus, not
> >> one military transport, he didn't order commercial buses to take
> >> evacuees, he didn't send in military helicopters to evacuate the hospitals.

>
> > BEFORE the hurricane (I see you intentionally misunderstood the
> > statement) it is Nagin's responsiblity to handle the evacuation.
> > Please take time to read the Hurricane Preparedness Plans for both the
> > City of New Orleans and the state of LA. It points out specifically
> > who is responsible. AFTER the storm, access was near impossible.

>
> Damnit, is it necessary to explain dozens of times why 120,000 stranded
> people couldn't be evacuated in a few hours by 300-500 buses???? Are you
> really so ****ing stupid? Or are you so dishonest?


Again, you claim that if ALL couldn't be evacuated then NONE should be
evacuated?

Some of those people would have never left. Some desperately wanted
to, but didn't have the chance to because the city FAILED IN ITS
OBLIGATION!! Okay, we got that straight now?

> >> How is it Nagin's fault that all evacuations require all roads back in
> >> to be turned into more roads out? 300...500...even 800 buses would have
> >> been insufficient, because each bus could have made only one trip out,
> >> and with only 50-70 people.

>
> > There would be that many more people out of harms way.

>
> 300 buses require 300 drivers. Kinda difficult to get a low-paid blue
> collar employee to ignore his own family's needs in order to help his
> employer.


Again, the city failed to hire people that were responsible enough for
the job.

> >> If they could have gotten safely away
> >> through the clogged highways. And you have to wonder, if the buses had
> >> tried to run west to avoid the worst traffic snarl in history, would
> >> they too have been stopped by armed bigots from neighboring parishes?

>
> > So, there were armed bigots out BEFORE the storm? You realize that it
> > is better to evacuate BEFORE a storm than AFTER, right?

>
> Probably were.
> Stop ignoring my reply to the same damn rant you have repeated two dozen
> times. My answer will not change. That you fail to comprehend or choose
> to ignore (thereby remaining ignorant) is your problem. I won't keep
> repeating myself.


And your answer will continue to be bullshit.

> >> school board busses [?] A buss is a kiss (as in a buss on the lips). I assume you meant "buses". but, in fairness, I'll give you this: since "buss" itself is a word, a spell checker wouldn't have caught your error.

>
> >>>> But on August 28th--one day before landfall, according
> >>>> to NWS experts, there was only a 29% probability that NO would receive a
> >>>> direct hit.

>
> >>> And, as it turned out, it didn't receive a direct hit.

>
> >> ah, so you admit this? So what created such a disaster? The broken
> >> levees. The levees that Bush had cut the funding for.

>
> > Yeah, maybe he cut funding (and was not the first to do so) when he
> > realized no improvements were getting done on the levess because New
> > Orleans decided it needed a new bridge to it's casino, a $4 million
> > statue and LA decided it needed a new senate building, all paid for
> > with the levee funds.

>
> the levee funds were controlled by corps of engineers, who were either
> doing or supervising the work.


Then why do they have a New Orleand Levee Board?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342186/
"The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in
typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the
Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the
levees surrounding New Orleans - the same levees that failed after
Katrina hit"
"In fact, NBC News has uncovered a pattern of what critics call
questionable spending practices by the Levee Board - a board which, at
one point, was accused by a state inspector general of "a long-
standing and continuing disregard of the public interest."



> >>>> So, yes, some who could have left did not bother;

>
> >>> And this is Bush's fault, how?

>
> >> this is Nagin's fault because?

>
> > Didn't claim it was. Some are not going to leave even under a
> > mandatory evacuation. No one can be held responsible for their
> > stupidity.

>
> according to everything you have written, everything was Nagin and/or
> Blanco's fault.


No, there are things that they could not control (geography, nature,
stubborn citizens). BUT, in the things they COULD control, they failed
miserably.

> Bush talks to god and god answers: why didn't he know in
> june that Katrina was coming?


Maybe God's racist. (btw...that's sarcasm)

> >>>> leaving would be
> >>>> expensive, and who had any money to waste??

>
> >>> So, your family's security is based on the price of a tank of gas?

>
> >> tank of gas? I take it you have never traveled 50 miles beyond family
> >> and friends? Motels, up to $130 per day. Meals, up to $25 each, per
> >> couple. Lost wages. Damage to homes that might have been prevented, had
> >> someone been there to, for instance, tape busted windows; loss of
> >> belongings to looters. And, yes, sometimes, just plain thrill seeking
> >> kept some fools home.

>
> > During the evacuation for Ivan, I saw people that went north just far
> > enough to get out of the storm, and then set up tents. I went to
> > Memphis (16 hours), only because my wife wanted to. That was the only
> > one I've ever evacuated for. Will never again.

>
> See? Yet you condemn others for making the same choice? what hypocrisy.


No hypocrisy what so ever. I don't live in an area that is
inordinately dangerous, by choice. I don't live in an area that is
below sea level, by choice. I don't live close to the Gulf, by
choice. If I am in an area I deem unsafe when a Hurricane approaches
(say Gulf Shores), I leave.

And, if I decide to stay, I will be responsible for my safety and for
getting out of any situation that arises. It's called 'personal
responsibility' and we don't have enough of it in this country.

> >>>> and a waste it would have
> >>>> been, if the storm had veered away at the last moment--after all, the
> >>>> experts had been wrong lots of times.

>
> >>> So, they took and chance, and lost...Bush's fault how?

>
> >> I notice that your argument has transmogrified from blaming Democrat
> >> Nagin into defense of Bush's reputation. They "took and [sic] chance"
> >> for the reasons listed above, and many more than are known only to the
> >> individuals.

>
> > And no one can be blamed for what happens to them when they decide to
> > put themselves in danger.

>
> no one can be blamed because incompetent, uncaring mothers don't care
> for their children. But the children are hungry and must be fed. you're
> saying, **** 'em if they won't/can't leave. **** hungry children also?


Nope, take care of the children, but don't reward the useless mother.
Take the kids away from the useless mother and let her fend for
herself.

> >>>> And what of those with no way out?

>
> >>> It actually doesn't take a lot to get out of the flood area of New
> >>> Orleans. You can walk it if you have to.

>
> >> A foolish, disingenuous statement. Are you really so misinformed????
> >> Armed deputies and shotgun-toting vigilantes stood guard at bridges to
> >> the west.

>
> > Only AFTER the storm. I've spent time in New Orleans. 1) I would
> > never stay during a thunder storm, much less a hurricane & 2) If
> > you're halfway intelligent, you can get out BEFORE a storm.

>
> "That was the only one I've ever evacuated for. Will never again."
> Your comment. don't be such as blatant hypocrite.


Like I said, not hypocritical at all. I wasn't in an area that was
going to flood (unless the water rose 200 feet and came 90 miles
inland). If I had been in New Orleans, I would leave for every storm,
no matter how small (there IS a reason I don't live in New
Orleans...it's because it's a shithole that's below sea level).

> 80-90% of NO citizens did not own a vehicle. For the umpteenth time, had
> they wanted to leave (and a large percentage--like you--did not wish to
> evacuate), the city's resources were insufficient to transport them all
> when there was such short notice.


And again, even if the resources are insufficient, there was still
enough, HAD THEY FOLLOWED PROCEDURE, to get the majority of those that
WANTED to leave out.

> Remember, on the 28th, NWS reported
> only a 29% chance that the city would be hit.


So, Nagin gets a pass for there being some question over if they were
gonna get hit, but you want to blame Bush for not getting help in
before the storm? Did he have information that Nagin didn't?

> >> And, umm, you are aware, are you not, that Katrina's cone was
> >> wide and deep and moving fast as a mother****er.

>
> > Strangely enough, I lived through it. I had plenty of time to
> > prepare, and helped my extended family prepare.

>
> oh, now you're claiming that you lived in NO?


Didn't say that at all, you seem to have a reading comprehension
problem. I was hit by Katrina, also. I had the same amount of warning
as NO. The difference is that I don't take any hurricane lightly. I
boarded up our windows (turned out to be useless) and the windows of
my Mother's house and helped my brother do his., cleaned up the yard
and got to higher ground as I knew that there was a 'possibility' of
flooding (even though it hadn't happened in that area in 100 years).
Guess what, got flooded, but my family was safe. **** happens.

> >> The storm center made
> >> landfall on the western edge of MS, but it still destroyed homes and
> >> killed people as far to the East as Alabama, as far to the West as
> >> Houston, farther to the North than Baton Rouge. What's your best walking
> >> speed?

>
> > I was talking about walking out of the area of New Orleans that is
> > below sea level (a bad place to be in a hurricane).

>
> 120,000 people walked out of that area, tried to cross the bridges and
> were turned back. They either camped on the bridges or at the superdome.


And, had some of these people been evacuated by the city beforehand,
less people would have suffered, and those left would have found
slightly better conditions.

> >>>> Bus? 1,000 busloads onto already clogged interstates and local roads?

>
> >>> Another failure by the authorities of LA. They waited WAY to long
> >>> before reversing flow on the interstates.

>
> >> Your ignorance is astounding, especially for one who claims to have
> >> lived through other hurricanes. The buses could not have taken all the
> >> stranded to safety with one trip, and here you are suggesting that any
> >> return trips for more passengers should have been prevented even earlier
> >> by reversing the flow of all lanes in.

>
> > So, if you can't safe EVERYBODY, you shouldn't save ANYBODY? Kinda
> > cold there.

>
> disingenuous comment.
> You see the films of the mob tearing down the fences of the American
> embassy during the last hours of the Vietnam War? Should they have done
> what that one $200 per day hotel did?--hire one bus to take out their
> wealthy patrons, and **** everyone else?


Well, the hotel's responsibility is to its patrons first and
foremost. If they were able to get buses, why couldn't Nagin?

> Which argument do you want to pursue, pre-katrina, or post-katrina?
> please make up your mind. The storm did very little damage to NO. After
> the winds died, people poured onto the streets, high-fiving their good
> sense in riding out the storm.


And, when the levees failed, that 'good sense' turned out to be a very
bad decision. And the possibility of the levees failing has always
been there.

> >> Remember, too, that bus drivers
> >> and cops also have families they want to get to safety, and most had
> >> money for travel, so almost all the bus drivers and a large percentage
> >> of the cops and firemen took your advice and left long before the storm
> >> hit.

>
> > Which is another failure of local government. Emergency services and
> > support are not supposed to abandon the city, they are supposed to
> > stay and help.

>
> you are perfect, correct?--were you raised in Japan? Pal, like everyone
> else, you would have first seen to the needs of your own family.


The difference is I'VE ALREADY seen to the needs of my family. In
case of hurricanes, my family knows what to do. I start early taking
care of my property, and have time left over to help neighbors and
family. After Katrina I was the first one able to get out of my
neighborhood to help others. (Granted, it's a small neighborhood, but
we had to remove trees just to get out of the driveway).

> They
> were not in the Army; they had freedom of choice.


But, they also had responsibilities.

> >> Additionally, do keep in mind the old adage: You can lead a cow to
> >> water, but you can't make it drink if it isn't thirsty.

>
> > But do you blame the farmer when they don't drink?

>
> LOl. Yet you are blaming Nagin, aren't you? That is what this thread was
> originally about, wasn't it? You and other rightards jumping on Nagin
> once again?
> Thank you for supporting my argument.


Didn't support you at all. Nagin failed in his responsibilities. I
don't see how anyone can argue this. Granted, most of the failures
had to do with personnel, but Nagin is responsible for people under
his administration.

> >>>> So, when the storm struck, more than 100,000 survivors were stranded.
> >>>> But NO was largely intact after the storm. It was what happened
> >>>> afterwards that made it a tragedy.

>
> >>> This is true.

>
> >> what happened afterward is clearly the fault of the Bush
> >> administration's "discretionary spending" budget cuts. The rich needed
> >> them tax cuts!

>
> > Yes, he was indeed 'discrete' in not supplying the government official
> > with more money to line their pockets.

>
> want to branch into ethics of politicians? I can supply a veeery long
> list of Republicans who have been busted for ethics violations in the
> recent past.


The same with Democrats. (I find it amusing that Dims who wanted to
castrate Foley for sending dirty text messages to someone of age are
the same people that supported, and celebrated Rep. Gerry Studds'
actual sexual encounters with an underage teen page as 'personal &
private'. Now THAT's the definition of hypocrisy.)

> > Everyone got tax cuts...strangely enough, that mostly affected the
> > people that pay the most taxes. Should we have found a way to give
> > more tax cuts to people who don't pay taxes (you'd probably answer
> > 'yes')?

>
> You want to move off into this also? You're all over the place. I leave
> on a long business trip tomorrow morning, so I won't be able to respond
> to your reply to this.
>
> Family income of $70,000, a tax cut of $300. $200,000 income, a tax cut
> of $15,000. $1,000,000 and above income, a tax cut approaching $100,000.


Okay, now tell me, who had the highest percentage of tax cut (hint,
the dude making $70,000). If you pay more taxes, you get more back.
Why is that a difficult theory to understand? You actually have to
PAY taxes before you can get a Tax CUT.

> If the purpose of the cuts was to kick start the economy, it made sense
> to give it to the people who would spend it immediately for necessities.


But, by doing it across the board, everyone gets relief from a
burdensome tax. And those getting more back are more likely to buy
luxuries...helping the economy.

> As Warren Buffet remarked, 'My secretary paid higher taxes last year
> than I did, and her yearly income is less than I spend on personal
> luxuries in an average week. That is just flat wrong.'


Well, maybe Buffet should send more money in. Of course, income tax
is based on INCOME (strangely enough) not what you spend, and how much
'income' did Buffet list? (That doesn't count a big bank accounts or
assets). Sounds like he's cheating.

> >>>> Bush happened. Funds cut from the Corps of Engineers, so levees were
> >>>> unable to withstand the load.

>
> >>> Those levees have been deemed insufficient to withstand a Cat 3
> >>> hurricane since the 1960's. How is Bush responsible for this?

>
> >> They weren't maintained at even a minimal level, thanks solely to Bush's
> >> budget cuts.

>
> > They weren't being maintained even when they were fully funded, as the
> > money was being diverted. There is a reason that LA is considered the
> > most corrupt state.

>
> Prove your claim. The Corps of Engineers is not under control of any
> governor.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342186/

> >>>> Surrounding townships sending armed
> >>>> guards to keep people from escaping NO happened.

>
> >>> Well, being neighbors, maybe they had a pretty good idea of the people
> >>> they would be getting and wanted to protect their own..of course, this
> >>> does not make it right, but nor does it make it Bush's Fualt.

>
> >> it makes it bigotry.

>
> > I would call it a sense of preservation.


Well, maybe they thought that some of the looters and armed rioters
would get into the city. Is it bigotry if it's true?

> The Nazis hardened their Camp guards by first transporting people like
> cattle, standing room only--they **** themselves standing up, their
> clothes were nasty, smelly, millionaires coming off those cattle cars
> looked as if they had just left a Los Angeles housing project.
>
> All people stranded on a bridge after a hurricane tend to look like
> bums, like potential criminals. College professors, corporate CEOs in
> the same circumstance would look like the lowest kind of human.
>
> And what of the children? were they--would you be--afraid that toddlers
> would pull a gun?
>
> You're a goddamn bigot. Compassionate conservative, my ass.


Not a bigot at all. I'm not condoning what the neighboring towns did,
just attempting to understand it. I wasn't out on the highway with a
gun. I was cleaning up neighbor's yards, neighbors of all races.

> >> Bush had the power to order those avenues of escape
> >> left open--he had National Guard, armed Blackwater contractors and the
> >> bully-pulpit of the presidency to force compliance. He did nothing. THAT
> >> makes it Bush's fault.

>
> > Maybe he thought that using the National Guard to help save people was
> > more important. Not to mention, the President does not have control
> > over local police, Ever heard of the Posse Comitatus Act? t
> > generally prohibits Federal military personnel and units of the United
> > States National Guard under Federal authority from acting in a law
> > enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly
> > authorized by the Constitution or Congress.

>
> you want to discuss pre- or post-Katrina?
>
> He did expressly order the NG to act in violation of the PC. One ****ing
> phone call would have opened the damned bridges. He too is a goddamn bigot.


You seem to like that word. Let me guess, anyone who doesn't agree
with you is automatically called a 'bigot', right? If the paper boy
throws your paper on the roof, he's a bigot. If someone cuts you off
in traffic, he's a bigot.

> >>>> Bush's FEMA and Bush's
> >>>> Homeland Security happened. And people died needlessly due to your
> >>>> president's inaction.

>
> >>> Again, FEMA was on scene within 24 hours, and had National Guard in
> >>> the city within 3 days. This is far better than the five in normally
> >>> takes.

>
> >> Bullshit. Besides, "on scene" does not mean in action. Driving through
> >> the rubble that was MS four days after the storm, the trucks were just
> >> then beginning to roll south. Contrast this to the instantaneous
> >> Federal response to hurricanes that struck FL during the past decade.

>
> > The best response after a hurricane in FL that I am aware of is about
> > 5 days.

>
> bullshit. Brownie performed so poorly after Katrina by design of Bush's
> WH. You think it was an accident that he went on vacation just before
> the storm hit?--he couldn't be reached (according to Card) and no one
> else had the authority to order the Federal resources Brown requested.


Hmm, except when receiving a blow-job, when is a President ever out of
touch?

> When Bush goes on vacation, take cover--a disaster of some kind always
> strikes shortly after Bush goes fishing.
>
> >> Dick Cheney also earned criticism for his role in the aftermath. On the
> >> night of August 30, and again the next morning, he personally called the
> >> manager of the Southern Pines Electric Power Association and ordered him
> >> to divert power crews to electrical substations in nearby Collins,
> >> Mississippi that were essential to the operation of the Colonial
> >> Pipeline, which carries gasoline and diesel fuel from Texas to the
> >> Northeast. The power crews were reportedly upset when told what the
> >> purpose of the redirection was, since they were in the process of
> >> restoring power to two local hospitals, but did so anyway.

>
> no defense of dick cheney? Don't blame you.


Actually, no response because I've never heard of this story. Doesn't
make it true, but I can't negate it either. If you could provide a
cite for this, I'll look into it and get back to you.

> >> In January 2007, former FEMA director Michael D. Brown charged that
> >> partisan politics had played a role in the White House's decision to
> >> federalize emergency response to the disaster in Louisiana only rather
> >> than along the entire affected Gulf Coast region, which Brown said he
> >> had advocated. "Unbeknownst to me, certain people in the White House
> >> were thinking, 'We had to federalize Louisiana because she's a white,
> >> female Democratic governor, and we have a chance to rub her nose in
> >> it,'" Brown said, speaking before a group of graduate students at the
> >> Metropolitan College of New York on January 19, 2007. "'We can't do it
> >> to Haley [Mississippi governor Haley Barbour] because Haley's a white
> >> male Republican governor. And we can't do a thing to him. So we're just
> >> gonna federalize Louisiana.'"

>
> > Or it could be that they had to federalize LA because it was a ****
> > up, and not MS because it wasn't.

>
> LA had 40' of water, and poor highway access. MS had a storm surge that
> receded within hours after the storm moved on. More storm damage,
> certainly. But less after-effects. Easier logistics.


True, and no one can be held accountable. But there was still serious
damage in MS & AL. Both governors handled it well.

> >>>> Dumb dumb dumb. The evidence--the FACTS--were presented and you chose
> >>>> to ignore. Ignore, root of the word ignorant. Willful ignorance,
> >>>> synonymous with you Bush apologists.

>
> >>>>>> You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> >>>> The state you lived in? TX, FL, GA, or my state, MS? I am a
> >>>> transplant, so my parents were not siblings. The entire 77-mile stretch
> >>>> of MS coastline held a small portion of the population of NO's city
> >>>> limits alone.

>
> >>>> A more affluent economic base;

>
> >>> i.e. Not Welfare trash.

>
> >> you, sir, are a racist and an economic bigot.

>
> > On what do you base this bullshit opinion? I didn't mention color at
> > any point? And yes, it is well known that New Orleans is a Welfare
> > economy.

>
> you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
> bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
> wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!


Not really, if I see black people in my neighborhood, I think Dee next
door has company and wonder if he'll invite me to the barbecue.

And, what are the chances of a black man in a Cadillac sarcasm .

I live not too far from a predominantly black city. The crime is much
more prevalent than that of the city next door, which is predominantly
white. This is not 'bigotry', but a fact. A verifiable reality. Is
it because the are black? I don't know nor do I care..I just avoid
the area at night.

> They judged the people stranded on the bridge by the color of their skin
> and their filthy clothes.


And the fact that they come from a corrupt and crime ridden city.

> >>>> more roads out (more
> >>>> places to go) for a far more mobile population; no levees to break,

>
> >>> So, this is all geography...how is the geography Bush's fault? (the
> >>> same geography that made it very difficult to get INTO New Orleans
> >>> after the storm. remember, less roads out means less roads in,also).

>
> >> How is it Nagin's fault????

>
> > You seem to have a habit of inferring things I don't say. I didn't
> > say it was Nagin's fault, just pointed out that you can't hold Bush
> > responsible for geography.

>
> bullshit. you have been saying exactly that throughout this thread. The
> entire thread, as a matter of fact, originated due to a rightarded
> republicon smear of Democratic Mayor Nagin.


Pointing out the fact that he failed in his responsibility is a
'smear'?

> >> You keep trying to slip-slide away from your original rant, that
> >> Democrats Nagin and Blanco deserve sole blame for the disaster.

>
> > I never claimed that, but after the individual's responsibility, it is
> > the responsibility of the local and state authority, THEN the federal.

>
> Sure you have been.
> you have been saying exactly that throughout this thread. The entire
> thread, as a matter of fact, originated due to a rightarded republicon
> smear of Democratic Mayor Nagin.


Pointing out the fact that thousands suffered as a result of his
incompentence is a 'smear'?

> >>>> so
> >>>> when the wind died down and the waves receded, Mississippi's emergency
> >>>> situation was largely over. A different situation entirely.

>
> >>>> So get down from your high hobby horse before you get a bloody nose. I
> >>>> know this is a difficult blow to your pride. But accept it.
> >>>> Mississippi fared better during the aftermath of Katrina due to the
> >>>> logistics of the thing. Not your state's superiority. I live here too,
> >>>> so I know from firsthand experience that the intellect and worth ethic
> >>>> of Mississippians are not superior to those of neighboring states.

>
> >>> I would dissagree. I've been AL, MS & LA post katrina. In AL, MS and
> >>> some of LA, they are working hard to rebuild. In New Orleans, they
> >>> are sitting on their ass, waiting for the guv'mint money, watching the
> >>> mexicans rebuiled their town)

>
> >> will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
> >> housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).

>
> > Yeah, that's why I don't live in a major metropolitan area. New
> > Orleans is a city based on generational welfare.

>
> no manufacturing base.


Plenty of manufacturing base. Petroleum factories, a very busy
port...these are the reasons the city was built to begin with.

> A higher percentage of New Orleans' citizens work
> for minimum wage than that of any other city in the US.


Also the highest amount of people on public assistance and the highest
amount of political corruption.

> Before you say
> it, they could move to a better wage base. But the poor have nothing
> else of value but their families. They don't leave, they cling together,
> for the same reason that Brooklynites would rather live in a Brooklyn
> slum among their family and friends than virtually alone in an Atlanta
> townhouse.


Not my problem.

> I realize that your bigotry will prevent you from understanding what
> I've just said.


Sure, you're claiming they are incapable of taking care of themselves
and it's Guv'mint's job to do so. Sounds racist to me.

> >> One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
> >> doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
> >> that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.

>
> > I rebuilt my own home. But the majority of New Orleans would rather
> > bitch about the guv'mint not providing for them. (My favorite Post
> > Katrina Quote, "The guv'mints been taking care of me my whole life.
> > For them to stop no is unconstitutionable.")

>
> will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
> housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).
> One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
> doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
> that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.


Okay, how about getting a job, getting paid to rebuild those
destroyed. There are plenty of jobs to do this in New Orleans, but
they are having to import workers because the majority of people in
New Orleans don't want to work when they can collect a check from the
guv'mint.

> The vast majority of them HAD NO HOMES TO REBUILD. And the small
> percentage that had homes, had neither money nor insurance to pay the
> freight of rebuilding.


But, there are plenty of jobs available as a result of the
hurricane...why don't they apply for them?

> >>>> We cleaned up quicker, as I said, because we endured far far less
> >>>> flooding,

>
> >>> I got six feet of flooding, how about you?

>
> >> only three feet, inland fifteen miles from the ocean. it quickly
> >> receded; how about yours?

>
> > 6 feet, about 40 miles from the gulf (not ocean), but only a few miles
> > from the Bay.

>
> >> NO got up to 40' in some areas, and it had to be pumped out, a process
> >> that required more than a month.

>
> > See, not a good place to stay during a hurricane.

>
> I won't bother responding again to this circular rant of yours. By now
> you can probably quote my response to that by heart.


Getting tired of being wrong?

> >>>> and help could get to us far far easier.

>
> >>> Strange, I don't remember help getting to my house for about 8 days.
> >>> Of course, we had pretty much cleaned up what we could by then.

>
> >> YOUR house. YOUR neighborhood.

>
> > Yes, mine. You see, me, and my neighbors, didn't sit on our asses
> > waiting for assistance.

>
> will you not understand that a large percentage of NO citizens lived in
> housing projects? (the same is true of every major metropolitan area).
> One cleans one's own home, and the community in which it sits. One
> doesn't volunteer money or your own labor to rebuild the homes of people
> that turned their noses up when passing you on the street before the storm.


But, they could easily get paid for rebuilding them, and become
productive members of society. They choose not to.

And, if they are unwilling to rebuild a place to live, why should I
worry if they have a place to live?

> >>>> And perhaps most
> >>>> importantly of all, a larger percentage of us owned our own homes (one
> >>>> is more apt to repair one's own property as even a rightarded
> >>>> Mississippian ought to realize).

>
> >>> Yeah, we were dumb enough to have something called 'insurance'...and
> >>> we still have spent over $100K out of pocket (mainly becasue we
> >>> decided it would be a good time to do improvements). And, although
> >>> we've had massive amounts of damage, we STILL haven't received any
> >>> goverment assistance.

>
> >> State Farm blamed my roof damage on the central air (which runs two feet
> >> below the roof). No money, not a dime for $12,00 in damage. State Farm
> >> was not a "good neighbor."

>
> > I agree. State farm is really ****ing the people of MS...I hope that
> > gets changed.

>
> All insurance companies are ****ing everyone who gets in the way of a
> natural disaster. ore regulation is needed of that dastardly industry.


I didn't have any trouble with mine. But then, I had the proper
coverage.

> >> BTW, one does not purchase insurance for housing projects and even your
> >> own home if your income barely buys the groceries.

>
> > Yeah, maybe they should put down the crack pipe in order to better
> > themselves. They are still responsible for their own safety.

>
> your bigotry is astonishing but not surprising, coming from a republicon
> bush apologist.


Hmmm, you seem to think that when I talk about people 'putting down
their crack pipe' I'm automatically talking about blacks..kinda racist
of you.

> you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
> bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
> wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!
> you see a black man or black woman or black child, you see crack addict!


I didn't mention black at all. YOU did. Are you a bigot? At this
moment, if I see black skin, I see a co-worker. I work in a
predominantly black area. I don't automatically assume everyone I see
outside is a criminal. I try not to assume anything about any race.
If I wanted to, I could be pissed of at the white race. BUT, groups
who are where they are because of their actions (say, generational
welfare recipients) I have opinions on all day long.

> They judged the people stranded on the bridge by the color of their skin
> and their filthy clothes.


And the fact they come from a crime ridden and corrupt city.

> >>>> So wipe that smirk off your arrogant,
> >>>> inbred face, bucko.

>
> >>> You like to infer that I am inbred. I'll just call you a '****ing
> >>> idiot', you ****ing idiot.

>
> >> you are a bigot: you earned the appellation by your refusal to assess
> >> any of the blame to your boy George Bush.

>
> > So, in your idiot mind, 'supporting Bush' equals 'Bigot'...your hatred
> > is noted.

>
> your bigotry is astonishing but not surprising, coming from a republicon
> bush apologist.
> you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
> bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
> wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!
> you see a black man or black woman or black child, you see crack addict!
>
> They judged the people stranded on the bridge by the color of their skin
> and their filthy clothes.


I think your needle is stuck.

> >> I imply ; you infer . (i.e., I inferred from your smug, racist rants
> >> that you might be inbred, and then I implied that you might be inbred).

>
> > Either way, you're still a ****ing idiot.

>
> an example of your low intellect is above. The above is also one example
> of my wit and education.


What, that you have neither? If you want examples of wit and
education:

Today at work I will be polymerizing four individual batches of a
cationic oil-in-water emulsion in glass jacketed reactors, varying the
amount Aqueous-to-Oil phases and catalyst initiators in a 2x2
experiment to see what quantitative effects such variations will have
on initiation reactivity, Oil & Sediment separation and overall
viscosity.

How many burgers did you flip today?

> >>>>> Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> >>>>> Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> >>>>> hurricane....EVER?

>
> >>>> do you recall your uncle-daddy's name? the color of your mother-sister's
> >>>> eyes?

>
> >>>> Do you recall that 75,000 people were stranded at the Superdome alone?

>
> >>> Yeah, maybe someone responsible should have provided more shelters
> >>> (according to the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness plan, there
> >>> should have been more and Nagin was in charge). How is this Bush's
> >>> Fault?

>
> >> Well, for one thing his tax cuts to the wealthy forced cuts in Federal
> >> funds available to the States.

>
> > Actually, if you'd read up on it, tax cuts created the largest income
> > for the IRS...ever.

>
> Bush's $3.2 trillion in deficit spending may have had a bit to do with
> that.
>
> >> FEMA? After FL's last direct hit ( a mild hurricane, if there can be
> >> such a thing), FEMA passed out checks, unasked, 200 miles north of the
> >> damage zone. An investment in the next election, maybe?

>
> > I don't agree with paying people for a disaster with tax money. Some
> > people around here managed to **** the gov. out of hundreds of
> > thousands of dollars.

>
> you can bet your ass that big business got the largest chunk of the
> Katrina funds. For instance, all those trailers sitting around down
> here? travel trailer size, retail cost about $15,000. Bush paid $68,000
> to $98,000 for them and another $15,898 to have them moved 700 miles.
> Transport cost should have been the $898, leaving $15,000 going into
> someone's pocket for each trailer.


You mean someone ****ed the government? Say it ain't so.. I know a
lot of people were glad to get those trailers, but yes, we got
screwed. What was Bush to say? "Well, that's a little
expensive...let's not buy they trailers this year."

> >>>> that cops refused to allow anyone to escape from NO into neighboring
> >>>> towns?

>
> >>> Bush's cops?

>
> >> Bush had the power to open the escape routes; he did nothing.

>
> > No, he didn't

>
> >>>> that it was all lies that the poor of NO were raping and killing
> >>>> one another at the Superdome and other places people were suffering
> >>>> together?

>
> >>> Yes, it was bullshit, that was made up by the media? Is the Media
> >>> Bush's fualt?

>
> >> Possibly Rove's fualt [sic]. He is after all, Bush's personal Goebbels.

>
> >>>> that Media filmed cops threatening to kill people fleeing
> >>>> destroyed stores with cans of food and loaves of moldy bread? that cops
> >>>> and Blackwater contractors and, yes, a few National Guard amateurs did
> >>>> in fact fire at and kill desperate people from helicopters and boats?

>
> >>> Yes, those 'deperate people' who had fired at the helicopters and
> >>> boats FIRST. It's called 'self defense'.

>
> >> Not one iota of evidence was ever presented that this happened. But when
> >> YOUR child, YOUR grandmother is drowning, or has been stranded for four
> >> days on a roof surrounded by floating corpses, and helicopters and
> >> boats, cameras busily filming your grandmother's naked backside, pass
> >> you by, might YOU be tempted to fire a shot into the air to get their
> >> attention?

>
> > One copter was actully hit. But to you, I guess bullet holes in sheet
> > metal are not 'evidence'.

>
> cite that. And I again state (modified to reflect your undocumented claim:


Sorry, I was mistaken. "We investigated one incident and it turned out
to have been shooting on the ground, not at the helicopter," Air Force
Maj. Mike Young told The New York Times on September 29.
"

> when
> YOUR child, YOUR grandmother is drowning, or has been stranded for four
> days on a roof surrounded by floating corpses, and helicopters and
> boats, cameras busily filming your grandmother's naked backside, pass
> you by, might YOU be tempted to fire a shot at a helicopter to get their
> attention?


I doubt it, as I know enough about rescue to realize what they are
going through and what choices they had to make.

> >>>> Do
> >>>> you recall that nearly two years after the storm, thousands of people
> >>>> are still prohibited from reclaiming undamaged NO homes?

>
> >>>>>> your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> >>>>> Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> >>>>> so.

>
> >>>> I have done so. You have been exposed to the facts in numerous
> >>>> documentaries,

>
> >>> Yeah, supposedly Bowling for Columbine was a 'documentary', too.

>
> >> sometimes the truth is painful for you rightards.

>
> > You haven't been presenting any truth.

>
> I said: armed bigots prevented desperate people from escaping. TRUTH. I
> said: NO lacked the resources to evacuate 120,000 people, and bush's
> Feds did. TRUTH.


TRUTH: New Orleans had the resources to evacuate MANY (maybe even all
that wanted to go) and did not follow its own Hurricane Preparedness
Plan.
TRUTH: It is not the federal governments job to prepare a city for a
hurricane. Nor did they have time before the hurricane to provide
such.

> I said: Nagin cannot be blamed for people making wrong choices.


That is correct, but he didn't supply transportation to those who
wanted it.

> TRUTH. I
> said: Dozens of other predicted hurricanes had not materialized, so
> people must be forgiven for thinking this one too might miss them.


People must be forgiven for stupidity? And you want to forgive them
but claim the Bush knew without a doubt, beforehand, what would
happen.

> TRUTH. Disprove any of the above. Not more of your bigoted, willfully
> ignorant republicon rants. But evidence that disproves anything I've
> just said.


It has been PROVEN that Nagin had the responsibility to provide
transportation, and did not do so.
It has been proven that New Orleans had resources that Nagin did not
utilize.
It has been proven that New Orleans did not properly outfit shelters.
It has been proven that the New Orleans Levee Board misused funds that
could have improved the levees.
It has been proven that New Orleans is the most corrupt city in the
country.

> >>>> news reports, congressional investigations

>
> >>> What were the criminal charges again? OH? Not any?

>
> >> lots of levels of blame, dude. Bush has yet to be charged in a court of
> >> law for his treasonous lies that got us involved in Iraq.

>
> > That's because you can't prove he 'lied' when in fact, he didn't.

>
> branching into yet another direction to escape the hook you swallowed on
> this one? No WMDs,


To be found YET.

> no terrorist connection with Saddam Hussein


This is a lie. There are plenty of connections proven of terrorist to
Saddam Hussien (he funded suicide bombers, for one). The report you
mis-represent is that there was not certifiable proof of his
connection to the attacks on 9/11.

>--and a
> list of experts longer than this post told him they would not be found.
> Bush is either a goddamn liar or dumb as a stump.
>
> >> Cheney has yet
> >> to be charged for his treasonous outing of a top secret CIA operative.

>
> > It's been proven that Cheney is not the one who 'outed' her..it wasn't
> > even Libby. (Try Armatage)

>
> nothing of the sort has been proven. Cheney is in charge of the WH;
> Bush, Armitage, Rove all worked for Cheney.
>
>
>
> >> It's unlikely that they will be. It's about accountability, assigning
> >> blame where blame is due.

>
> >>>> and here on usenet.

>
> >>> Again, 'usenet' does not equate to facts..it equates to debate.

>
> >> During the course of debate, skilled debaters conduct research and post
> >> facts that support their viewpoints. I have presented you with facts
> >> regarding bush's mishandling of the Katrina disaster; again, you will
> >> choose to ignore the truth about your boy george. Ignore , root word of
> >> ignorance .
> >> The willful ignorance of a "compassionate" conservative.

>
> > Usually, on usenet, 'debate' is you presenting your lies.

>
> I said: armed bigots prevented desperate people from escaping. TRUTH.


Agreed.

> I said: NO lacked the resources to evacuate 120,000 people, and bush's


TRUTH: NO had access to resources that it did not utilize, AS
REQUIRED, that could have alleviated alot of suffering.

> Feds did. TRUTH.


TRUTH: The feds do not have the responsibility, nor did it have TIME
beforehand to accomplish this.

> I said: Nagin cannot be blamed for people making wrong choices. TRUTH.


TRUTH: Nagin CAN be blamed for not following proper procedures.

> I said: Dozens of other predicted hurricanes had not materialized, so
> people must be forgiven for thinking this one too might miss them. TRUTH.


TRUTH: People can be stupid.

> Disprove any of the above. Not more of your bigoted, willfully ignorant
> republicon rants. But evidence that disproves anything I've just said.


You've yet to prove any of them as fact. Only opinion.

> >>>> Yet you stubbornly, dishonestly refuse to accept what your
> >>>> eyes have seen and your ears have heard and what the muted voice of your
> >>>> conscience keeps trying to tell you is the truth about George Bush's
> >>>> malfeasance and incompetence in office.

>
> >>> I'm not crazy about Bush. He was, in my opinion, the lesser of two
> >>> evils. I dissagree with him on many things, but that does not make
> >>> him responsible for the ineptness of New Orleans and LA.

>
> >> Kerry was evil in what way?

>
> > Kerry was too damn wishy washy, changing based on the latest poles.
> > He was, in my opinion, a traitor during Korea. His purple hearts were
> > bullshit. to name a few.

>
> you must occasionally listen to something other than Fox unNews.
> O'Really, limbaugh, savage, hannity, they are all entertainers for the
> stupid: they are not journalists.
> KOREA? Gosh, you are overwhelming me with the power of your intellect.


Sorry, said Korea instead of Vietnam. Was in a hurry and have been
reading some interesting books on Korea the last few days.

> You should stay out of this one, bucko. I'll eat your lunch on this one.
> a tidbit: bush went AWOL; Kerry won medals fighting in VIETNAM.


Okay, where is his dishonorable discharge for being AWOL, or records
of discipline for being AWOL (and made up CBS documents don't count).

Yeah, Kerry won medals for filming his every moment in Vietnam...and
got purple hearts for paper cuts.

> >> You voted for Bush even though you knew in
> >> 2004 that he had been a disaster as president merely because you lacked
> >> the personal courage to reverse your previous defense of the incompetent
> >> asshole. How sad for you.

>
> > I voted for Bush because I thought he was the best choice.

>
> Ready to admit that you were wrong? No? didn't think so. You usenet
> republicons lack the balls to admit your mistake.


Not a mistake, still feel he was the best choice.
If Gore had won, after 9/11 the entire country would have had to
attend 'sensitivity training' to see how we offended the terrorists.
Not to mention, us 'peons' would be forced to drive electric golf
carts while he drove an SUV, which is okay as he pays himself for
bullshit 'carbon credits'...all in the name of his bullshit people
caused 'Earth Fever'.

If Kerry had won, he would have decided not to take care of terrorism
after he decide TO take care of terrorism.

> >>>>>> I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> >>>>>> with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> >>>>> i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> >>>> Don't rant, provide evidence of Nagin's **** ups, then I will gladly
> >>>> produce evidence refuting your every claim.

>
> >>> Nagin's **** Ups:

>
> >>> Federal officials have faulted Nagin's administration for not
> >>> marshaling its Regional Transit Authority buses and those of the
> >>> School Board. When Nagin failed to follow the evacuation plan for New
> >>> Orleans, he threw a HUGE monkey-wrench into the activities and
> >>> responsibility of the Lousiana National Guard, who now had to shift
> >>> gears to manage the masses converging on the Superdome. Mayor Nagin
> >>> also miserably failed to implement the Hurricane Evacuation Plan for
> >>> the city of New Orleans. He failed to evacuate those people that
> >>> collected at city shelters via the buses he had at his disposal
> >>> (ironically, within 24 hours of the levee breach, Nagin was in front
> >>> of TV cameras blaming Bush for not sending buses, when he ordered the
> >>> evacuation when he had over 1000 buses, that he never even tried to
> >>> budge).

>
> >>> The New Orleans contingency plan states, "The safe evacuation of
> >>> threatened populations is on of the principle reasons for developing a
> >>> Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But this was ignored.

>
> >>> Not preparing for people to be in the Dome for several days after the
> >>> storm. There was food and water in the Dome, but not enough for a
> >>> week. Asking people to bring food and water is not 'preparing'.

>
> >> The above rant has already been ably discounted.

>
> > What? It's been proven he didn't provide proper shelter.

>
> did he know in advance that 120,000 people would need shelter?


Did he know his town is mostly below sea level? Did he know how many
people where in his town? Did he know his levees were sub-par (as has
been reported since the 60s)?

> How much
> of his taxpayer's money should he have spent laying in supplies


As much as was necessary. You make it sound like he only had 48 hours
to prepare for disaster. He had since the beginning of his term.
Provisions for shelters should be available year round with inventory
taken before every hurricane season. The entire system failed. He
was supposed to be in charge of the system.

>--at a
> commercial enterprise-- for a disaster that would not have happened had
> bush strengthened the levees rather than abandon them???


So, Bush first item of business was to fix a problem that has been
****ed up for over 50 years, when the very city it's supposed to
protect didn't worry about it?

> >>>> Look, we both know that'll be a waste of your time and mine.
> >>>> Desperately-Seeking Susan [question: does the S in wsthomas stand for
> >>>> Susan?], desperate to prove to himself/herself that he/she was right and
> >>>> everyone else is wrong about your boy george. Well, sonny/girly, you
> >>>> have seen, heard, read the truth numerous times, yet you still refuse to
> >>>> believe. So be it. Your loss. your inability to accept reality won't
> >>>> affect me even a little bit.

>
> >>> The reality is that, if you live below sea level and a hurricane is
> >>> comeing, get the **** out. It's YOUR responsibility. Nagin failed
> >>> his city. Blanco failed her state. The Federal response was the
> >>> fastest ever.

>
> >> bullshit. Arriving on site is not the same as taking action. Reread my
> >> previous comments twice more--a dozen times more, try to educate yourself.

>
> >>> And we've been paying for it ever since. Since when did it become
> >>> goverment's job to provide everyone with a house?

>
> >> since we became a nation. Brother helps brother. Society helps victims
> >> of disasters. Children are not allowed to go to bed hungry, without a
> >> roof to cover their heads. We give spare change to the indigent (BTW,
> >> many of those street bums are veterans of America's wars). Where's your
> >> compassion for the less fortunate?

>
> > My compassion takes the form of donations to charities, volunteering
> > at local schools, charities and re-building after hurricanes. It is
> > not the governments job to force charity.

>
> yeah, sure, I believe you. I have no reason to doubt you. I believe you
> tithe your local church


Don't go to church.

> and donate cans of beans to food drives->-of
> course, that help goes to your fellow whites.


Yep, along with building props and materials for the local elementary
school choir (as everyone knows, black kids don't sing).
I also helped build a playground for the local United Cerebral Palsy
pre-school (as everyone knows, black kids are never in wheelchairs).
I'm a member of the Volunteer fire department (as everyone knows only
white folks houses burn).
Why, I'm so racist I once let a black fellow burn to death because he
wasn't even worth pissin on sarcasm
I work with handicap children, and last time I checked, ALL races are
represented by children in wheelchairs.
I tutor high school and college math...all races.
After Ivan, I worked cleaning up and rebuilding 8 different
residences. More than that after Katrina.
It was instilled by my parents. Help others. If you see someone
stranded on the side of the road, stop and help.
Have you ever changed a tire for someone you didn't know? (or a fuel
filter)
Ever did maintenance work around the house of a single mother?
One of the individuals I love most in the work is named Nikita..care
to guess what color she is?
I do volunteer work for UCP, Children's Rehab, etc.
Me and my girlfriend will be making dinner for the local Ronald
McDonald House next month (we like what they do). We're also on the
list as drivers and chaperones of a monthly trip that takes children
to visit their parents who are in prison.
How many wheelchair ramps have you built?
I am volunteer and co-founder of the Wheelchair Wipeout we put on
every year. It's a party we give before school starts in the fall.
Food, fun, and we do repair work on and clean up wheelchairs, so kids
will have a decent one for going to school. No one is charged for
this service. The food is donated (the local Outback Steakhouse),
everybody is a volunteer, radio and t.v. show up. It's great time.
This year we expanded it to include a child safety seat seminar.

Do you have to believe any of this? I don't give a ****.

> your bigotry is astonishing but not surprising, coming from a republicon
> bush apologist.
> you label yourself. Like the armed guards blocking escape at the
> bridges, you see black skin, you think, Another mugger..better hide my
> wife! you see a black man in a Cadillac, you think, There's a carjacker!
> you see a black man or black woman or black child, you see crack addict!


Hit the side of your head, your needle is stuck again.

> >>>>>> Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> >>>>>> his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> >>>>> Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> >>>>> protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> >>>>> classified as running and hiding)

>
> >>>> your ignorance is astounding. While the Towers burned, he was in FL,
> >>>> under his brother's protection, giving an emergency important political
> >>>> speech, to a group of 3rd graders--or perhaps it was for help reading
> >>>> his favorite novel, My Pet Goat? Look, the trip was a last-second
> >>>> surprise to even the members of the WH Press Corps (most of whom were
> >>>> left behind). Why so sudden, hmmm? Even you ought to wonder.

>
> >>> What, a president makes a photo op? That's a conspiracy?

>
> >> no advance notice given of the trip. Ergo, less Press to take the pretty
> >> pictures. And did you not notice the nervousness, the fear in Bush's
> >> eyes even before he was notified about the first
> >> Tower strike? No, you wouldn't: you'd rather blame it on his fear that
> >> he'd have to ask a 3rd grader for help pronouncing the big words.

>
> > What fear before the notification? I think your projecting based on
> > your hatred.

>
> Watch the video of his FL 9/11 reading lesson closely. I don't hate
> bush. His ineptitude is the best thing to happen to the Party of the
> People since the last time Bill Clinton was elected.


You seriously believe that the Democratic Party is 'the Party of the
People'? That's it, you're delusional.

> >>>>> Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> >>>>> attack...right?

>
> >>>> Laughing at you, sonny. Standing on the precipice of one canyon, now
> >>>> you want to retreat to the safety of the cliffs of the Grand
> >>>> Canyon--careful there, sonny/girly, you are standing quite close to the
> >>>> precipice.

>
> >>> Oh, that such a big word for a ****ing idiot.

>
> >> Precipice--big word? How about this one:
> >> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious? Check its meaning and spelling if
> >> you like. Just click on this link:www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtracks/s/thesoundofmusiclyrics/

>
> > Why not go for a real word, Pneumonoutlramicroscopicsilicavulcaniosis
> > (actual word, spelling could be off).

>
> Cute. You found a big word? doesn't devalue the spanking you deserved
> for your inept attempt to ridicule a more intelligent, more
> knowledgeable, more eloquent man--me.


Didn't look it up, if I had I probably would have spelled it
correctly. Just remember the trivia that it is the longest word in
the English language, (I think it's a type of flu caused by exposure
to volcanic ash).

At least mine wasn't made up.

> >> You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
> >> trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
> >> I feel it is a lost cause. For instance, the above sentence lacks a verb.

>
> > Gee, didn't know I was being graded.

>
> you received a failing grade.


That would mean you're the teacher...if that's the case, the school is
****ed.

> >>>> This too has been debated countless times.

>
> >>> And you conspiracy idiots are all ****ing...well, idiots.

>
> >> You've demonstrated your low intellect throughout this thread. I've been
> >> trying to educate you on English grammar as well as national events, but
> >> I feel it is a lost cause.

>
> > Yes, I have nothing to learn from ****ing idiots such as yourself.

>
> you have received a deserved spanking for your inept attempt to ridicule
> a more intelligent, more knowledgeable, more eloquent man--me. Learn
> from it.
>
> >>>> Two planes, yet three
> >>>> buildings collapse--

>
> >>> Could be, two collapsed from big assed airplanes barrelling into them
> >>> and the third from the damage inflicted by the falling of the first
> >>> two. Check out ALL the film of the day and you will realize that over
> >>> 10 floors of WTC 7 had been damaged with the damage going over 25%
> >>> into the structure.

>
> >>http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm

>
> >> Here's a snippet from that website:
> >> BBC Footage Shows Report On 911 Attack Describing Building #7's
> >> Collapse...23 Minutes BEFORE It Actually Occurred

>
> >>http://www.rense.com/general7/aale.htm

>
> >>http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/Grossmann/Four Horsemen/066 Fo...
> >> THE BUILDING SECURITY CONNECTION, MARVIN BUSH:

>
> >> NAMES: Marvin Bush, Barbara Bush, James Pierce, Securacom, Al Sabah
> >> family of Kuwait

>
> >> Marvin P. Bush, with other co-conspirators, knew and permitted the
> >> planting of bombs in the World Trade Center on or around September 8 and
> >> 9, 2001 for the purpose of destroying and pulverizing the World Trade
> >> Center twin towers on September 11, 2001 and killing several thousand
> >> innocent people.

>
> >> On Thursday before 9-11, building security removed the bomb-sniffing
> >> dogs that had been safeguarding the World Trade Center against bombs.
> >> Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been
> >> working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone
> >> threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

>
> >> On Saturday and Sunday before 9-11, the power was shut down in the twin
> >> towers and unidentified technicians ,,rewired" the buildings from the
> >> 50th floor upwards; it is obvious that this could have been an
> >> opportunity to plant demolition charges to later take the buildings down.

>
> > Okay, demolition prep takes months, charge installation takes weeks,
> > and a huge crew is involved. So, you're saying that literally
> > hundreds of people installed thousands of pounds of explosives in a
> > weekend, and no one noticed the destruction it takes to place these
> > charges (I guess they cleaned up...strange nobody notice huge amounts
> > of new plaster).

>
> On Thursday before 9-11, building security removed the bomb-sniffing
> dogs that had been safeguarding the World Trade Center against bombs.
> Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been
> working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone
> threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
>
> On Saturday and Sunday before 9-11, the power was shut down in the twin
> towers and unidentified technicians ,,rewired" the buildings from the
> 50th floor upwards; it is obvious that this could have been an
> opportunity to plant demolition charges to later take the buildings down.
>
> demolition of LV casinos is accomplished in about 2 days, total--I've
> watched documentaries about them.


I've seen those documentaries...the preparation for them took months.

> > But, you claim hundreds of people could keep this a secret. Hell,
> > Bill couldn't even keep a blow-job secret, and that only involved 2
> > people.

>
> Marvin Bush was in charge of the security of the Towers; the same man
> owned both Towers and Bldg 7. Watch the film clip I provided the link
> to. She's announcing that Bldg 7 has fallen--and behind her, it is still
> standing!
>
> >> The private security company who was responsible for the security of the
> >> World Trade Center on 9-11-1 was Securacom, a Bush family company. On
> >> the Board of Directors of Securacom was Marvin P. Bush, one of President
> >> George W. Bush's brothers. This Bush family company was a joint venture
> >> with the ruling Al Sabah family of Kuwait.

>
> >> Barbara Bush has admitted that her son Marvin was in Manhattan at the
> >> World Trade Center when the buildings were taken down as if to
> >> supervise. A nephew of Barbara Bush, James Pierce, apparently was tipped
> >> off and vacated his office in the World Trade Center shortly before the
> >> very location of his office was hit and blown up in a huge explosion
> >> during one of the attacks.

>
> >> On Terror Tuesday, 9-11-1, bombs exploded in the World Trade Center and
> >> demolished the twin towers, killing over two thousand Americans. This
> >> was originally explained by Albert Turi, the New York Fire Department
> >> Security Chief, and numerous bomb experts, confirmed by dozens of
> >> eyewitnesses of the explosions,

>
> > These 'explosions' have been proven to be compression blasts.

>
> from kerosene? Bullshit. Study metallurgy. Kerosene doesn't burn hot
> enough to bring down a skyscraper.


Yes, it does. Kerosene burns plenty hot enough to weaken steel. (it's
YOUR straw man that it had to 'melt' steel'). Add other fuels and you
get a hotter fire. And 'compression blasts' refers to the pressure of
the open space of a floor being ejected when the floor pancakes.

> >> the seismic measurements of the
> >> explosions,

>
> > Disproven. Even the owners and operators of the seismographs admit
> > this.

>
> so produce a cite.


http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_WTC/WTC_LDEO_KIM.pdf

Don't see any mention of bombs.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?do=print

"There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions
brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of
our work is categorically incorrect and not in context." The report
issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic
readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well
as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com
chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings
over a 30-minute time span. On that graph, the 8- and 10-second
collapses appear--misleadingly--as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-
Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more
detailed picture: The seismic waves--blue for the South Tower, red for
the North Tower--start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble
to the ground. Translation: no bombs.

> >> the original version of the mainstream TV videos
> >> (meticulously documented by Henrik Melvang, Denmark), the huge explosion
> >> blasts that rocked at least one helicopter and blew-up otherwise
> >> inexplicably huge dust clouds, etc.

>
> > Compression...proven.

>
> proven to the willfully foolish.
>
> prove it.


Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of
air. As they pancaked, all that air--along with the concrete and other
debris pulverized by the force of the collapse--was ejected with
enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor
collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window,"
NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder.

> >> The bombs were apparently placed in
> >> the World Trade Center under the responsibility of a security company
> >> entitled "Securacom" that was controlled by the Bush family.

>
> > And your proof is?

>
> look it up. Marvin Bush was CEO/operations manager of Securacom until a
> few days before 9/1l; he resigned from the company 's board quite suddenly.


I'm looking for your proof that there were bombs. You have not
presented any.

> >> The melting point of iron is 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit; jet fuel
> >> (essentially just kerosene) has a flash point of 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

>
> > Flash point is not burning temp. The burning temp of Kerosene, open
> > air, is 500-599
 
On Mar 19, 2:44 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Grendelwrote:
> > > On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > wrote:

>
> > >> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message

>
> > >>news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>
> > >>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:

>
> > >>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> > >>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> > >>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> > >> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> > >> the hell he's talking about.

>
> > > Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> > > Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> > > who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> > > minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> > > accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> > > the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> > > oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> > > place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> > > out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> > > He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

>
> > I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
> > life with blinders on.

>
> So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
> of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
> hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?
>
> > Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
> > many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.

>
> 'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.
>
> > You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
> in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
> Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
> hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
> rescue us.
>
> Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> hurricane....EVER?
>
> > your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> so.
>
>
>
> > I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> > with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.
>
> > Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> > his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> classified as running and hiding)
>
> Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> attack...right?
>
> > Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.

>
> Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
> being AWOL.
>
> Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his
>
> > cowardly heels.

>
> > > (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> > > was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> > > New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> > > Election?)

>
> > Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
> > hit, so your
> > argument doesn't hold water.

>
> I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
> was refering too.
>
> "Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
> anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
> Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
> readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
> dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
> community."
>
> > He enjoys the confidence of
> > his city's
> > citizens, both the black and the white.

>
> That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
> Welfare gready idiots.
>
> > Pull up your
> > panties, boy, your
> > racism is showing.

>
> So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
> be black, I'm am a 'racist'?
>
> Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
> that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.
>
> > >> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
> > > Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

>
> > >YolBolsun,
> > >Grendel.

>
> > Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .

>
> I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
> doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
> case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
> asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.
>
> > You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.

>
> So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
> own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
> ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
> school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
> those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
> follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
> not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
> during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
> faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
> that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
> inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
> Guard without coordinating with the Governer).
>
> I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
> person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
> sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
> make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
> decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
> protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
> governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
> support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
> assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
> it has always been.
>
> In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
> Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
> this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
> have no viable reasoning)
>
> Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
> resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
> Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.
>
> Yol Bolsun,
> Grendel.
>
> "Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
> privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


The pompous asshole grendel speaks and as usual says exactly NOTHING!

Is it not amazing how he has seen and done everything!?

"****ing moron is he" - Yoda
 
On Mar 23, 9:31 am, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 2:44 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> > > Grendelwrote:
> > > > On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > wrote:

>
> > > >> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message

>
> > > >>news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>
> > > >>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > >>> wrote:

>
> > > >>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> > > >>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> > > >>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> > > >> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> > > >> the hell he's talking about.

>
> > > > Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> > > > Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> > > > who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> > > > minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> > > > accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> > > > the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> > > > oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> > > > place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> > > > out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> > > > He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

>
> > > I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
> > > life with blinders on.

>
> > So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
> > of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
> > hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?

>
> > > Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
> > > many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.

>
> > 'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.

>
> > > You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> > Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
> > in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
> > Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
> > hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
> > rescue us.

>
> > Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> > Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> > hurricane....EVER?

>
> > > your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> > Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> > so.

>
> > > I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> > > with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> > i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> > > Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> > > his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> > Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> > protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> > classified as running and hiding)

>
> > Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> > attack...right?

>
> > > Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.

>
> > Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
> > being AWOL.

>
> > Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his

>
> > > cowardly heels.

>
> > > > (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> > > > was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> > > > New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> > > > Election?)

>
> > > Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
> > > hit, so your
> > > argument doesn't hold water.

>
> > I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
> > was refering too.

>
> > "Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
> > anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
> > Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
> > readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
> > dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
> > community."

>
> > > He enjoys the confidence of
> > > his city's
> > > citizens, both the black and the white.

>
> > That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
> > Welfare gready idiots.

>
> > > Pull up your
> > > panties, boy, your
> > > racism is showing.

>
> > So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
> > be black, I'm am a 'racist'?

>
> > Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
> > that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.

>
> > > >> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
> > > > Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

>
> > > >YolBolsun,
> > > >Grendel.

>
> > > Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .

>
> > I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
> > doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
> > case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
> > asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.

>
> > > You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.

>
> > So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
> > own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
> > ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
> > school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
> > those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
> > follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
> > not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
> > during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
> > faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
> > that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
> > inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
> > Guard without coordinating with the Governer).

>
> > I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
> > person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
> > sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
> > make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
> > decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
> > protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
> > governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
> > support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
> > assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
> > it has always been.

>
> > In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
> > Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
> > this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
> > have no viable reasoning)

>
> > Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
> > resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
> > Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.

>
> >YolBolsun,
> >Grendel.

>
> > "Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
> > privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> The pompous assholegrendelspeaks and as usual says exactly NOTHING!


Gee, Hawkeye, what is this strange fascination you have have with me?
You're like the little whipped puppy that keeps whining at his abusive
master's feet, as a beating is the only attention you get.

I take it by your lack of arguement, you can not refute anything said.

> Is it not amazing how he has seen and done everything!?


One speaks only on the basis of his own experiences. How am I unique
in the fact that I weathered Hurricane Katrina? (kinda goes with the
territory, as it were) Or that I'm familiar with New Orleans?

If this thread were about, say, Snowmobiling, I wouldn't bother to
answer, as I've never been on a snowmobile. Unlike you, I prefer to
have some practical knowledge on the subjects of which I speak.

Yol Bolsun,
Grendel.

"Hawkeye is living proof that Diarrhetic Manure can sprout lips and
talk!"-Not Solomon Short.
 
On Mar 23, 6:05 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On Mar 23, 9:31 am, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 19, 2:44 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> > > > Grendelwrote:
> > > > > On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:

>
> > > > >> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message

>
> > > > >>news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>
> > > > >>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > >>> wrote:

>
> > > > >>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> > > > >>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> > > > >>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> > > > >> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> > > > >> the hell he's talking about.

>
> > > > > Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> > > > > Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> > > > > who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> > > > > minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> > > > > accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> > > > > the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> > > > > oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> > > > > place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> > > > > out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> > > > > He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

>
> > > > I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
> > > > life with blinders on.

>
> > > So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
> > > of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
> > > hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?

>
> > > > Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
> > > > many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.

>
> > > 'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.

>
> > > > You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> > > Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
> > > in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
> > > Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
> > > hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
> > > rescue us.

>
> > > Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> > > Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> > > hurricane....EVER?

>
> > > > your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> > > Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> > > so.

>
> > > > I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> > > > with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> > > i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> > > > Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> > > > his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> > > Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> > > protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> > > classified as running and hiding)

>
> > > Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> > > attack...right?

>
> > > > Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.

>
> > > Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
> > > being AWOL.

>
> > > Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his

>
> > > > cowardly heels.

>
> > > > > (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> > > > > was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> > > > > New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> > > > > Election?)

>
> > > > Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
> > > > hit, so your
> > > > argument doesn't hold water.

>
> > > I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
> > > was refering too.

>
> > > "Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
> > > anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
> > > Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
> > > readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
> > > dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
> > > community."

>
> > > > He enjoys the confidence of
> > > > his city's
> > > > citizens, both the black and the white.

>
> > > That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
> > > Welfare gready idiots.

>
> > > > Pull up your
> > > > panties, boy, your
> > > > racism is showing.

>
> > > So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
> > > be black, I'm am a 'racist'?

>
> > > Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
> > > that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.

>
> > > > >> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
> > > > > Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

>
> > > > >YolBolsun,
> > > > >Grendel.

>
> > > > Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .

>
> > > I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
> > > doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
> > > case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
> > > asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.

>
> > > > You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.

>
> > > So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
> > > own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
> > > ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
> > > school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
> > > those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
> > > follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
> > > not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
> > > during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
> > > faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
> > > that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
> > > inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
> > > Guard without coordinating with the Governer).

>
> > > I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
> > > person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
> > > sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
> > > make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
> > > decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
> > > protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
> > > governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
> > > support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
> > > assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
> > > it has always been.

>
> > > In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
> > > Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
> > > this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
> > > have no viable reasoning)

>
> > > Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
> > > resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
> > > Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.

>
> > >YolBolsun,
> > >Grendel.

>
> > > "Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
> > > privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > The pompous assholegrendelspeaks and as usual says exactly NOTHING!

>
> Gee, Hawkeye, what is this ?
> You're like the little whipped puppy that keeps whining at his abusive
> master's feet, as a beating is the only attention you get.
>
> I take it by your lack of arguement, you can not refute anything said.
>
> > Is it not amazing how he has seen and done everything!?

>
> One speaks only on the basis of his own experiences. How am I unique
> in the fact that I weathered Hurricane Katrina? (kinda goes with the
> territory, as it were) Or that I'm familiar with New Orleans?
>
> If this thread were about, say, Snowmobiling, I wouldn't bother to
> answer, as I've never been on a snowmobile. Unlike you, I prefer to
> have some practical knowledge on the subjects of which I speak.
>
> Yol Bolsun,
> Grendel.
>
> "Hawkeye is living proof that Diarrhetic Manure can sprout lips and
> talk!"-Not Solomon Short.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Meglomaniac egotists have always have a strange fascination for me. My
guess, diluted from your incessant barrage of bullshit on any subject,
is you address anyone with an opinion OTHER than yours as inferior.
Being a total unique inferior yourself this is your way of feeling
good. Now why don't you climb back onto your sperm soaked soiled bed
of self-indulgent masterbating goo, and carry on with more of the
same. Also stop annoying the children.

"grendel, having lost a hansel of his own, has been on a trip to find
love but has only discovered himself" Sigmund
 
On Mar 24, 11:22 am, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 23, 6:05 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 9:31 am, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 19, 2:44 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> > > > > Grendelwrote:
> > > > > > On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:

>
> > > > > >> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message

>
> > > > > >>news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>
> > > > > >>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > > >>> wrote:

>
> > > > > >>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> > > > > >>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> > > > > >>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> > > > > >> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> > > > > >> the hell he's talking about.

>
> > > > > > Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> > > > > > Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> > > > > > who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> > > > > > minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> > > > > > accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> > > > > > the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> > > > > > oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> > > > > > place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> > > > > > out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> > > > > > He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

>
> > > > > I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
> > > > > life with blinders on.

>
> > > > So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
> > > > of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
> > > > hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?

>
> > > > > Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
> > > > > many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.

>
> > > > 'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.

>
> > > > > You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> > > > Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
> > > > in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
> > > > Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
> > > > hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
> > > > rescue us.

>
> > > > Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> > > > Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> > > > hurricane....EVER?

>
> > > > > your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> > > > Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> > > > so.

>
> > > > > I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> > > > > with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> > > > i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> > > > > Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> > > > > his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> > > > Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> > > > protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> > > > classified as running and hiding)

>
> > > > Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> > > > attack...right?

>
> > > > > Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.

>
> > > > Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
> > > > being AWOL.

>
> > > > Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his

>
> > > > > cowardly heels.

>
> > > > > > (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> > > > > > was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> > > > > > New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> > > > > > Election?)

>
> > > > > Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
> > > > > hit, so your
> > > > > argument doesn't hold water.

>
> > > > I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
> > > > was refering too.

>
> > > > "Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
> > > > anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
> > > > Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
> > > > readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
> > > > dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
> > > > community."

>
> > > > > He enjoys the confidence of
> > > > > his city's
> > > > > citizens, both the black and the white.

>
> > > > That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
> > > > Welfare gready idiots.

>
> > > > > Pull up your
> > > > > panties, boy, your
> > > > > racism is showing.

>
> > > > So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
> > > > be black, I'm am a 'racist'?

>
> > > > Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
> > > > that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.

>
> > > > > >> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
> > > > > > Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

>
> > > > > >YolBolsun,
> > > > > >Grendel.

>
> > > > > Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .

>
> > > > I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
> > > > doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
> > > > case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
> > > > asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.

>
> > > > > You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.

>
> > > > So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
> > > > own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
> > > > ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
> > > > school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
> > > > those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
> > > > follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
> > > > not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
> > > > during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
> > > > faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
> > > > that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
> > > > inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
> > > > Guard without coordinating with the Governer).

>
> > > > I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
> > > > person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
> > > > sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
> > > > make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
> > > > decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
> > > > protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
> > > > governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
> > > > support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
> > > > assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
> > > > it has always been.

>
> > > > In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
> > > > Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
> > > > this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
> > > > have no viable reasoning)

>
> > > > Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
> > > > resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
> > > > Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.

>
> > > >YolBolsun,
> > > >Grendel.

>
> > > > "Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
> > > > privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > The pompous assholegrendelspeaks and as usual says exactly NOTHING!

>
> > Gee, Hawkeye, what is this ?
> > You're like the little whipped puppy that keeps whining at his abusive
> > master's feet, as a beating is the only attention you get.

>
> > I take it by your lack of arguement, you can not refute anything said.

>
> > > Is it not amazing how he has seen and done everything!?

>
> > One speaks only on the basis of his own experiences. How am I unique
> > in the fact that I weathered Hurricane Katrina? (kinda goes with the
> > territory, as it were) Or that I'm familiar with New Orleans?

>
> > If this thread were about, say, Snowmobiling, I wouldn't bother to
> > answer, as I've never been on a snowmobile. Unlike you, I prefer to
> > have some practical knowledge on the subjects of which I speak.

>
> >YolBolsun,
> >Grendel.

>
> > "Hawkeye is living proof that Diarrhetic Manure can sprout lips and
> > talk!"-Not Solomon Short.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Meglomaniac egotists have always have a strange fascination for me. My
> guess, diluted from your incessant barrage of bullshit on any subject,
> is you address anyone with an opinion OTHER than yours as inferior.


No, plenty of people have opinions other than my own. It does not make
their's wrong or inherently inferior, it just makes them differing
opinions. Some people are of the opinion that N-SYNC had talent,
while I'm of the opinion that their music was annoying...neither
opinion is right or wrong, just opinion. (btw..wtf is a
'Meglomaniac'? A person with delusions of glowing?)

Your stupidity, on the other hand, makes your bullshit inherently
inferior.

> Being a total unique inferior yourself this is your way of feeling
> good.


There you go....projecting again.

> Now why don't you climb back onto your sperm soaked soiled bed
> of self-indulgent masterbating goo, and carry on with more of the
> same.


Can I help it if you can't find a woman that's impressed with the
money you bring home flipping burgers?

> Also stop annoying the children.


Hear that alot do you? You need to quite trolling the daycares for
dates.

Yol Bolsun,
Grendel.

"Everyone has the right to be stupid. Hawkeye abuses this privilege."-
Solomon Short (paraphrased)
 
On Mar 24, 12:22 pm, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 23, 6:05 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 9:31 am, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 19, 2:44 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> > > > > Grendelwrote:
> > > > > > On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:

>
> > > > > >> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message

>
> > > > > >>news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>
> > > > > >>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > > >>> wrote:

>
> > > > > >>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> > > > > >>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> > > > > >>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> > > > > >> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> > > > > >> the hell he's talking about.

>
> > > > > > Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> > > > > > Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> > > > > > who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> > > > > > minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> > > > > > accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> > > > > > the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> > > > > > oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> > > > > > place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> > > > > > out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> > > > > > He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

>
> > > > > I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
> > > > > life with blinders on.

>
> > > > So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
> > > > of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
> > > > hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?

>
> > > > > Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
> > > > > many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.

>
> > > > 'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.

>
> > > > > You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> > > > Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
> > > > in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
> > > > Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
> > > > hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
> > > > rescue us.

>
> > > > Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> > > > Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> > > > hurricane....EVER?

>
> > > > > your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> > > > Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> > > > so.

>
> > > > > I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> > > > > with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> > > > i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> > > > > Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> > > > > his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> > > > Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> > > > protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> > > > classified as running and hiding)

>
> > > > Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> > > > attack...right?

>
> > > > > Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.

>
> > > > Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
> > > > being AWOL.

>
> > > > Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his

>
> > > > > cowardly heels.

>
> > > > > > (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> > > > > > was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> > > > > > New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> > > > > > Election?)

>
> > > > > Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
> > > > > hit, so your
> > > > > argument doesn't hold water.

>
> > > > I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
> > > > was refering too.

>
> > > > "Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
> > > > anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
> > > > Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
> > > > readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
> > > > dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
> > > > community."

>
> > > > > He enjoys the confidence of
> > > > > his city's
> > > > > citizens, both the black and the white.

>
> > > > That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
> > > > Welfare gready idiots.

>
> > > > > Pull up your
> > > > > panties, boy, your
> > > > > racism is showing.

>
> > > > So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
> > > > be black, I'm am a 'racist'?

>
> > > > Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
> > > > that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.

>
> > > > > >> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
> > > > > > Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

>
> > > > > >YolBolsun,
> > > > > >Grendel.

>
> > > > > Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .

>
> > > > I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
> > > > doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
> > > > case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
> > > > asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.

>
> > > > > You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.

>
> > > > So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
> > > > own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
> > > > ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
> > > > school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
> > > > those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
> > > > follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
> > > > not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
> > > > during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
> > > > faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
> > > > that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
> > > > inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
> > > > Guard without coordinating with the Governer).

>
> > > > I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
> > > > person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
> > > > sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
> > > > make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
> > > > decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
> > > > protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
> > > > governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
> > > > support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
> > > > assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
> > > > it has always been.

>
> > > > In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
> > > > Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
> > > > this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
> > > > have no viable reasoning)

>
> > > > Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
> > > > resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
> > > > Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.

>
> > > >YolBolsun,
> > > >Grendel.

>
> > > > "Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
> > > > privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > The pompous assholegrendelspeaks and as usual says exactly NOTHING!

>
> > Gee, Hawkeye, what is this ?
> > You're like the little whipped puppy that keeps whining at his abusive
> > master's feet, as a beating is the only attention you get.

>
> > I take it by your lack of arguement, you can not refute anything said.

>
> > > Is it not amazing how he has seen and done everything!?

>
> > One speaks only on the basis of his own experiences. How am I unique
> > in the fact that I weathered Hurricane Katrina? (kinda goes with the
> > territory, as it were) Or that I'm familiar with New Orleans?

>
> > If this thread were about, say, Snowmobiling, I wouldn't bother to
> > answer, as I've never been on a snowmobile. Unlike you, I prefer to
> > have some practical knowledge on the subjects of which I speak.

>
> > Yol Bolsun,
> > Grendel.

>
> > "Hawkeye is living proof that Diarrhetic Manure can sprout lips and
> > talk!"-Not Solomon Short.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Meglomaniac egotists have always have a strange fascination for me. My
> guess, diluted from your incessant barrage of bullshit on any subject,
> is you address anyone with an opinion OTHER than yours as inferior.
> Being a total unique inferior yourself this is your way of feeling
> good. Now why don't you climb back onto your sperm soaked soiled bed
> of self-indulgent masterbating goo, and carry on with more of the
> same. Also stop annoying the children.
>
> "grendel, having lost a hansel of his own, has been on a trip to find
> love but has only discovered himself" Sigmund- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Also give up on the "personal experience" claptrap. It gets really
thin when you blather on about how, no matter the subject, you have
personal experience with it. In other words.............. STOP MAKING
UP ****! Do the wheelchair kids have a show we can watch?
 
On Mar 26, 9:02 am, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 24, 12:22 pm, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 23, 6:05 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 23, 9:31 am, "Hawkeye" <ket...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > > > On Mar 19, 2:44 pm, wstho...@bellsouth.net wrote:

>
> > > > > On Mar 19, 12:16 pm, gringo <gri...@nospam.net> wrote:

>
> > > > > > Grendelwrote:
> > > > > > > On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:

>
> > > > > > >> <omareno...@aol.com> wrote in message

>
> > > > > > >>news:1174315865.948540.113930@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>
> > > > > > >>> On Mar 19, 7:42 am, "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfg...@infectedmail.com>
> > > > > > >>> wrote:

>
> > > > > > >>>> Tomgram: Rebecca Solnit on Not Forgetting New Orleans

>
> > > > > > >>> Why would anyone want to forget how thoroughly the Democratic mayor
> > > > > > >>> and governor ****ed that cesspool? Continue wailing :)

>
> > > > > > >> Spoken like someone who's never been to New Orleans and doesn't know what
> > > > > > >> the hell he's talking about.

>
> > > > > > > Speaking for someone who lives near New Orleans, has been to New
> > > > > > > Orleans before and after Katrina (including during the clean-up) and
> > > > > > > who has lived through Camille, Frederick, Ivan, Katrina and too many
> > > > > > > minor hurricanes to mention, I would have to say that Omar has
> > > > > > > accurately described what the problem was with New Orleans. It was
> > > > > > > the responsiblity of Nagin to prepare his city for a hurricane,
> > > > > > > oversee and assist in a evacuation for a hurricane and have people in
> > > > > > > place to oversee rescue and assistence afterward (as all was spelled
> > > > > > > out in the New Orleans Hurricane Preparedness Plan). He ran and hid.
> > > > > > > He accomplished nothing, and wanted to blame everyone else.

>
> > > > > > I too live near New Orleans. Apparently you go through
> > > > > > life with blinders on.

>
> > > > > So, having experience with hurricanes and knowing the responsibilities
> > > > > of local, state and federal authorites before, during and after a
> > > > > hurricane is considered going through life 'with blinders on'?

>
> > > > > > Apparently, you didn't bother to follow the
> > > > > > many threads about Katrina during the months after it struck.

>
> > > > > 'Threads' does not equate to 'facts'.

>
> > > > > > You know very well what went on along the entire Gulf Coast--

>
> > > > > Yes, I know very well, as I lived through it. And the state I lived
> > > > > in did not have the same problems as NO for the simple reasons that 1)
> > > > > Our leaders fullfilled their obligations and prepared for the
> > > > > hurricane and 2) we didn't sit on our ass expecting the Guv'mint to
> > > > > rescue us.

>
> > > > > Do you recall that the 'slow response' to New Orleans by the National
> > > > > Guard actually constituted the FASTEST RESPONSE to a
> > > > > hurricane....EVER?

>
> > > > > > your dishonesty is glaring brightly.

>
> > > > > Then you should be able to point out where I was dishonest...please do
> > > > > so.

>
> > > > > > I won't waste my time debating the Katrina disaster again
> > > > > > with a man lacking personal integrity.

>
> > > > > i.e....you have no substantial arguements for Nagin's **** ups.

>
> > > > > > Except for this: Bush ran and hid-- from the 9/11 show
> > > > > > his pals the Saudis arranged to save his presidency.

>
> > > > > Care to point out how he 'ran and hid' (and following procedures to
> > > > > protect the chain of command during a national emergency can not be
> > > > > classified as running and hiding)

>
> > > > > Also, you can easily provide evidence that he was complicit in the
> > > > > attack...right?

>
> > > > > > Bush ran and hid--from his stateside commitment to the National Guard during >time of war.

>
> > > > > Okay, then you will be able to show me his dishonorable discharge for
> > > > > being AWOL.

>
> > > > > Bush always hides when danger comes nipping at his

>
> > > > > > cowardly heels.

>
> > > > > > > (btw..have you heard Nagin's latest bullshit...that Hurricane Katrina
> > > > > > > was nothing more than a Republican Plot to disperse the citizens of
> > > > > > > New Orleans so that he [Nagin] would not win the next Mayoral
> > > > > > > Election?)

>
> > > > > > Nagin won reelection by a wide margin long after the storm
> > > > > > hit, so your
> > > > > > argument doesn't hold water.

>
> > > > > I didn't say it was my argument..it is NAGIN'S bullshit quotes that I
> > > > > was refering too.

>
> > > > > "Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen
> > > > > anywhere," Nagin said at a dinner sponsored by the National Newspaper
> > > > > Publishers association, a trade group for newspapers that target black
> > > > > readers. "They are studying this model of natural disasters,
> > > > > dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that
> > > > > community."

>
> > > > > > He enjoys the confidence of
> > > > > > his city's
> > > > > > citizens, both the black and the white.

>
> > > > > That just proves that the majority of New Orleans is a bunch of
> > > > > Welfare gready idiots.

>
> > > > > > Pull up your
> > > > > > panties, boy, your
> > > > > > racism is showing.

>
> > > > > So, by criticizing a mayor who fails in his obligations and happens to
> > > > > be black, I'm am a 'racist'?

>
> > > > > Must be nice to BELIEVE that calling a racist wins an arguement. But,
> > > > > that just demonstrates the fact that your arguement is weak.

>
> > > > > > >> Thanks for being consistant, Omar.

>
> > > > > > > Thank you for being ignorant of the facts.

>
> > > > > > >YolBolsun,
> > > > > > >Grendel.

>
> > > > > > Ignorant , derived from the root word ignore .

>
> > > > > I called him ignorant because I was giving him the benefit of the
> > > > > doubt that he may not actually be familier with the facts of the
> > > > > case. If he IS familier with the fact, and still persists in his
> > > > > asinine statements, then he is a ****ing idiot. Much as you.

>
> > > > > > You ignore facts that conflict with your bigotry.

>
> > > > > So, what did I ignore? The fact that Nagin failed to follow his very
> > > > > own cities Hurricane Preparedness plan? The fact that he had the
> > > > > ability to evacuate thousands of people but failed to do so (city and
> > > > > school buses)? The fact that he failed to provide proper shelters for
> > > > > those who needed it? The fact that the Governer herself failed to
> > > > > follow the State's Hurricane Preparedness plan? That fact that it is
> > > > > not the federal governments job to prepare or protect a city before or
> > > > > during a hurricane? The fact the the federal governments response was
> > > > > faster than any other hurricane in the last 40 years? And the fact
> > > > > that the response would have been even FASTER had not Blanco be an
> > > > > inept **** up? (remember, the President can not send in the National
> > > > > Guard without coordinating with the Governer).

>
> > > > > I've lived through many hurricanes. I know, for a fact, that the
> > > > > person most responsible for my safety is...ME. It is up to me to make
> > > > > sure I take all proper steps. It is the responsibility of my mayor to
> > > > > make sure I have information at my disposal to help me make that
> > > > > decision, and also his responsibility to aid anyone unable to properly
> > > > > protect themselves (shelters, transportation, etc). I know it is my
> > > > > governer's repsonsibility to make sure that my mayor has all the
> > > > > support he needs. I know that I cannot expect for any federal
> > > > > assistance to be on hand until 5 DAYS after a hurricane....this is how
> > > > > it has always been.

>
> > > > > In what way does my being responsible for my own safety, or calling
> > > > > Nagin inept, in any way equate to me being a 'bigot'? (and again,
> > > > > this does not win the arguement in your favor, it just proves that you
> > > > > have no viable reasoning)

>
> > > > > Now, if you would care to present some actual FACTS rather than
> > > > > resorting to useless namecalling, it might be more interesting.
> > > > > Otherwise you'll end being continually bitch-slapped.

>
> > > > >YolBolsun,
> > > > >Grendel.

>
> > > > > "Everyone has the right to be stupid. Gringo appearently abuses the
> > > > > privilege."-Solomon Short (paraphrased)- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > > The pompous assholegrendelspeaks and as usual says exactly NOTHING!

>
> > > Gee, Hawkeye, what is this ?
> > > You're like the little whipped puppy that keeps whining at his abusive
> > > master's feet, as a beating is the only attention you get.

>
> > > I take it by your lack of arguement, you can not refute anything said.

>
> > > > Is it not amazing how he has seen and done everything!?

>
> > > One speaks only on the basis of his own experiences. How am I unique
> > > in the fact that I weathered Hurricane Katrina? (kinda goes with the
> > > territory, as it were) Or that I'm familiar with New Orleans?

>
> > > If this thread were about, say, Snowmobiling, I wouldn't bother to
> > > answer, as I've never been on a snowmobile. Unlike you, I prefer to
> > > have some practical knowledge on the subjects of which I speak.

>
> > >YolBolsun,
> > >Grendel.

>
> > > "Hawkeye is living proof that Diarrhetic Manure can sprout lips and
> > > talk!"-Not Solomon Short.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > Meglomaniac egotists have always have a strange fascination for me. My
> > guess, diluted from your incessant barrage of bullshit on any subject,
> > is you address anyone with an opinion OTHER than yours as inferior.
> > Being a total unique inferior yourself this is your way of feeling
> > good. Now why don't you climb back onto your sperm soaked soiled bed
> > of self-indulgent masterbating goo, and carry on with more of the
> > same. Also stop annoying the children.

>
> > "grendel, having lost a hansel of his own, has been on a trip to find
> > love but has only discovered himself" Sigmund- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Also give up on the "personal experience" claptrap. It gets really
> thin when you blather on about how, no matter the subject, you have
> personal experience with it.


That's because I tend to have strong opinions on subjects that I have
personal experience WITH! Why is that so difficult for your pittiful
little mind to grasp. I don't bother posting about **** I don't care
about or don't have experience with. I wish you would do the same
(then, we could avoid you alltogether by just avoiding discussions
about pedophelia and burgerflipping).

> In other words.............. STOP MAKING
> UP ****!


So, because you can not put forth a viable argument, you feel that
calling me a liar wins the argument?

> Do the wheelchair kids have a show we can watch?


Hmmm, why would any kids (19, 14 & 14) have a show just because two of
them happen to be in wheelchairs?

You may disbelieve me as you wish. But do you feel morally superior
by putting down people in wheelchairs?

The fact that your pidling little mind can't grasp that someone might
actually have disabled family just proves that you are a ****ing
idiot. I tell you what, why don't you go to alt.support.wheelchairs
or alt.ucp and call them a bunch of liars. After all, if a member of
usegroups can't have handicapped family members, then ACTUAL
handicapped people can't POSSIBLY be on the internet....Right? You
****ing asshole.

Yol Bolsun,
Grendel.

"Stupidity is not necessarily punishable by violence. But Hawkeye
makes me wish it were."-Solomon Short.
 
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