Pretty on the dot quote...

WIN OR LOSE?

.... We have a very vocal minority who want to cripple the war effort in Iraq. I have come to the conclusion that it is only because they are invested in defeat.

.... First there are the "peace-at-any pricers" who hate the military, don't believe war accomplishes anything and will make sure there are no new examples to contradict them.

.... Then there are the PR Zombies like Sheehan, who don't even care about right or wrong but just see this as another opportunity to get in the media again.

.... And finally we have the Bush-haters. These people prefer Marxist thugs like Chavez and whacko dictators like Kim to our own President. These people are self-absorbed in their own little worlds and don't care if the rest of this country is dragged into the dirt, so long as they get their imagined "revenge" against a democratically-elected moral and honorable man. And if they have to snatch the terrorists of the world from the jaws of defeat they know this may be their last chance.[/Quote]

 

just thought i'd put that up.

And we truely appreciate it M60!

That guy is right IMO.

.... We have a very vocal minority who want to cripple the war effort in Iraq. I have come to the conclusion that it is only because they are invested in defeat.

.... First there are the "peace-at-any pricers" who hate the military, don't believe war accomplishes anything and will make sure there are no new examples to contradict them.

.... Then there are the PR Zombies like Sheehan, who don't even care about right or wrong but just see this as another opportunity to get in the media again.

.... And finally we have the Bush-haters. These people prefer Marxist thugs like Chavez and whacko dictators like Kim to our own President. These people are self-absorbed in their own little worlds and don't care if the rest of this country is dragged into the dirt, so long as they get their imagined "revenge" against a democratically-elected moral and honorable man. And if they have to snatch the terrorists of the world from the jaws of defeat they know this may be their last chance.

Totally...because, you know..the parents who have children in the armed forces who don't want to see their kids die in an unnecessary war...and the veterans from certain past wars who recognize this one to be unnecessary..and just people in general who worry about the state of conditions this will leave for the future...yeah none of those people have valid opinions. In fact, unless you agree with every damn word that comes out of Bush's mouth, you don't have a valid opinion.

Honestly though, when more than half the country disagree with the way things are being handled, how the hell is that a "vocal minority"?

And Bush...a moral and honorable man? Puh-lease! Even most of the people who voted for him wouldn't say that, they only did cuz they didn't like the other guy.

So in conclusion, Give me a break..give me a break.. break me off a piece of that kitka-- suck me off.

Totally...because, you know..the parents who have children in the armed forces who don't want to see their kids die in an unnecessary war...

Why does everyone keep acting like the military is made up of a bunch of kids? Unless someone lied about their age, not easy to do now days, I'm pretty sure there is not one child in the military.

I really hope you are not referring to the Sheehan. She didn’t give a shit about her son and had not had contact with him in years. She was in it for the attention.

Why does everyone keep acting like the military is made up of a bunch of kids? Unless someone lied about their age, not easy to do now days, I'm pretty sure there is not one child in the military.

 

I really hope you are not referring to the Sheehan. She didn

Because at 18 you're still a damn kid.

The "kids" should not have signed up if they didn't want to fight for america. Once you go through boot camp you are no longer a kid.

soooooo i'm a kid who does not know anything?

and becouse my folks have a problem with me going to war somehow that makes MY feelings on how I should do things not valid?

it's not the parents feelings that matter, it's the people actually going out and using the gun, having the ability to understand what they want and act on it even against their parents opinion makes them adults in at least a small way.

Because at 18 you're still a damn kid.

Then why the hell are we still letting you 'kids' vote.

Anyone know what the average age in the military is? I doubt it is 18.

Then why the hell are we still letting you 'kids' vote.

 

Anyone know what the average age in the military is? I doubt it is 18.

na na na nineteen.....

na na na nineteen.....

Here is some stats:

http://www.militarycity.com/advertising/circulation.html

Age 18 - 25: 45%

Age 26 - 34: 30%

Age 35+ : 25%

soooooo i'm a kid who does not know anything?

 

and becouse my folks have a problem with me going to war somehow that makes MY feelings on how I should do things not valid?

 

it's not the parents feelings that matter, it's the people actually going out and using the gun, having the ability to understand what they want and act on it even against their parents opinion makes them adults in at least a small way.

Since when does being a kid equate to not knowing anything? I know plenty of kids who know more than most adults do.

And no, your parents being upset at your choice to join the army by no means makes your feelings invalid. But your desire to save the world doesn't make their concern invalid either. Which is what I was originally pointing out. And as far as your last comment goes, both the parents and the people getting shipped out have feelings that matter.

Anyways you get the idea, I just slapped those up there because they came to mind first. there are literally thousand more and not all are just high achievers in the money field. Funny thing about money is, you can get it any place, people will pay you to do what you normally would do for free, but for some reason most people cant get any money... hummm.

 

Age has it limits but I have found that most the limits have been implanted by parents, teachers and society. 18 is getting onto old. Stop limiting yourselves and others.

Well I agree being 18 does not necessarily make you a kid, but most 18 year olds are kids. I'd define a kid as someone lacking a decent supply of worldly experience. And judging from the guys I knew/know in highschool that went off to join the military, half of them hadn't even been outside of the state they lived in prior to that decision.

Also, having money doesn't suddenly validate you as an adult. Making a piece of plastic to hold a crayon, or designing a website for jewish kids doesn't quite seem to be the benchmark for adulthood in my eyes...luck is bound to happen to some people.

The "kids" should not have signed up if they didn't want to fight for america. Once you go through boot camp you are no longer a kid.

The kids should not have signed up if they didn't want to fight for America in a way that protected the freedom of those back home. I'll be you most men and women in the armed forces didn't sign up to be shipped off to a completely unnecesarry war.

Then why the hell are we still letting you 'kids' vote.

 

Anyone know what the average age in the military is? I doubt it is 18.

Then why the hell can't an adult order a beer?

You have kids Tori. At 18 do you honestly think they're going to stop being your kids?

N U K E ! The Reasonable Alternative.

Well, quick, somebody fetch us a rag. Thine cup just brimeth over with intellectual insight.

your parents being upset at your choice to join the army [/Quote]

 

Marines, I'm not gonna get into my opinions on the average army recruit.

 

and what the fuck is this "they didn't know/want to be shipped off to a war" bullshit, if I'm not mistaken the military is not a college fund, it's the fucking military, you know what they do? they fight wars, so shut the fuck up and deal with it. if i hear one more idiot go off about how they joined for the enlistment bonus or the GI bill, I'm gonna snap. god bless the USMC, to hell with enlistment bonus.

Marines, I'm not gonna get into my opinions on the average army recruit.

 

and what the fuck is this "they didn't know/want to be shipped off to a war" bullshit, if I'm not mistaken the military is not a college fund, it's the fucking military, you know what they do? they fight wars, so shut the fuck up and deal with it. if i hear one more idiot go off about how they joined for the enlistment bonus or the GI bill, I'm gonna snap. god bless the USMC, to hell with enlistment bonus.

Marines then, I apologize.

And I made no mention of not wanting to be shipped off to war. I said I would bet most people in the armed forces would not want to be shipped off to an unnecessary war, or one that isn't being handled efficiently. If you're in a position where you're giving everything you have--your life-- would you not want it to be a situation where your death makes a positive difference? Wouldn't you want to be fighting a war that you agree with ideologically? Or even one that if you don't, at least the majority of the people you're fighting to protect do?

Then why the hell can't an adult order a beer?

Depends on what state you are in.

You have kids Tori. At 18 do you honestly think they're going to stop being your kids?

Being a kid and being my kid are two different things. As Nazz said, age depends on the person. My husband lived on his own at 15, worked nights, and still finished high school. He joined the military at 17 and went active duty at 18. I would not have considered him a kid at 18.

As for my children, they will be my kids when they are 60, but that doesn't mean they are kids. I would be proud for any of my children to follow in their fathers footsteps by joining the military.

First there are the "peace-at-any pricers" who hate the military, don't believe war accomplishes anything and will make sure there are no new examples to contradict them.

Imagine wanting peace! They must be evil. And it goes without saying that they must hate the military.

Believe it or not, there are normal sane people in the world who believe that war should be the very last resort. These people don't hate the military. They just don't think killing people is the best way to resolve conflict.

.... And finally we have the Bush-haters. These people prefer Marxist thugs like Chavez and whacko dictators like Kim to our own President.

I despise Bush. And while I don't think Chavez is a Marxist thug (he's NOT) I don't agree with the way Kim Jong does things. Why is it that Republican pundits et al often try to spread the mentality of "you're either with us, or you're a terrorist and/or you support all the 'bad guys'"

It's so babyish to think like that. Grow up!

These people are self-absorbed in their own little worlds and don't care if the rest of this country is dragged into the dirt, so long as they get their imagined "revenge" against a democratically-elected moral and honorable man. And if they have to snatch the terrorists of the world from the jaws of defeat they know this may be their last chance.

I love it how "Doc" Crabtree doesn't even bother to back this bullshit up. He knows it's bullshit. But he also knows that most right wing supporters will be happy to go along with anything that makes Democrats/Liberals look bad.

As for people thinking that parents aren't allowed to be upset about their kids fighting in wars - how ridiculous.

Imagine that your son signed up for the military. He is basically signing his life away, and pledging blind allegiance to whatever choices the President makes.

I think it's reasonable for parents to expect that their President will at the very least err on the side of caution when taking their son's life into his own hands. In fact, they should expect him to have a very fucking good reason for sending their son to war.

The fact that Saddam didn't like his Daddy is not a legitimate reason.

And what about all the innocent children in Iraq who have been killed? Don't they matter?

Why is smearing the Democrats/Liberals more important to Republicans than actually, say, saving lives?

sigh i wish there was an emoticon that could truly convey my expression... I would describe it as disgust.... not for you alone, but for everyone who waists their given ability to make change.

You may say whatever you want, but when done in this way, it will not make a difference, you can do, think, say, wish, anything, and it will not make a difference unless you find a way to make it count. And if you find that way, please, let me know, because i have yet to find it.

And yet, you respond to a simple quote with such fervor, like your opinion on what some obscure cartoonist in the Army thinks matters.

Well, i guess i should let you return to your pathetic life of enforcing your opinion through typed wording on a screen.

I will leave you with a question though, why do you do this? Why do you not search for a way to make a difference instead of waisting what short priceless life you have on this earth playing politics and opinion to strangers?

Also. I would like you to know, I'm not mocking you, i am asking a serious question, and i would appreciate a serious answer.

sigh i wish there was an emoticon that could truly convey my expression... I would describe it as disgust.... not for you alone, but for everyone who waists their given ability to make change.

 

You may say whatever you want, but when done in this way, it will not make a difference, you can do, think, say, wish, anything, and it will not make a difference unless you find a way to make it count. And if you find that way, please, let me know, because i have yet to find it.

 

And yet, you respond to a simple quote with such fervor, like your opinion on what some obscure cartoonist in the Army thinks matters.

 

Well, i guess i should let you return to your pathetic life of enforcing your opinion through typed wording on a screen.

 

I will leave you with a question though, why do you do this? Why do you not search for a way to make a difference instaid of waisting what short priceless life you have on this earth playing politics and opinion to strangers?

 

Also. I would like you to know, i'm not mocking you, i am asking a serious question, and i would appreciate a serious answer.

sigh I wish there was an emoticon that could truly convey my expression, but since there isnt, I'm going to have to go with the voice of Miss Bunny Swan:

Typical

I notice you didn't bother to actually refute any of the points I made. You just made a really vague point that deliberately distracts from the original point, and that has nothing to do with argument at hand.

How very Republican of you.

Need I point out that YOU posted the original comment? Surely you wanted people to share their opinions about it - this is a debate forum, after all.

So come on, argue your point. Tell me why you posted that piece of shit cut and paste quote.

sigh i wish there was an emoticon that could truly convey my expression... I would describe it as disgust.... not for you alone, but for everyone who waists their given ability to make change.

 

You may say whatever you want, but when done in this way, it will not make a difference, you can do, think, say, wish, anything, and it will not make a difference unless you find a way to make it count. And if you find that way, please, let me know, because i have yet to find it.

 

And yet, you respond to a simple quote with such fervor, like your opinion on what some obscure cartoonist in the Army thinks matters.

 

Well, i guess i should let you return to your pathetic life of enforcing your opinion through typed wording on a screen.

 

I will leave you with a question though, why do you do this? Why do you not search for a way to make a difference instaid of waisting what short priceless life you have on this earth playing politics and opinion to strangers?

 

Also. I would like you to know, i'm not mocking you, i am asking a serious question, and i would appreciate a serious answer.

sigh I wish there was an emoticon that could truly convey my expression, but since there isn't, I'm going to have to go with the voice of Miss Bunny Swan:

Typical

I notice you didn't bother to actually refute any of the points I made. You just changed the subject, making a really vague point that deliberately distracts from the original point, and that has nothing to do with argument at hand.

How very Republican Spin Doctor of you.

Need I point out that YOU posted the original comment - thereby being the one 'enforcing' your opinion on others?

And surely you wanted people to share their opinions about it - this is a debate forum, after all.

Nevermind the fact that you constantly share your opinion as if it matters.

Or that several people were debating this point before I joined the thread, but you never bothered to pose such a question to them.

And if you think I write with fervour that's probably because this thread really pisses me off. I can't believe that people still think like that. It drives me nuts.

So please, argue your point. Tell me why you posted that piece of shit cut and paste quote, then actually try and refute the points I brought up, and then maybe I'll consider answering your questions.

The Ideologue

by Patrick J. Buchanan

Churchillian it was not. Yet the State of the Union seemed a success if Bush's purpose was to buy time from Congress to wait and see if his surge of US forces into Iraq might yet succeed.

 

But when Bush started to describe the ideological war we are in, one began to understand why we are in the mess we are in.

 

"This war," said Bush, "is an ideological struggle. ... To prevail, we must remove the conditions that inspire blind hatred and drove 19 men to get onto airplanes and to come to kill us."

 

But the "conditions" that drove those 19 men "to come to kill us" is our dominance of their world, our authoritarian allies, and Israel.

 

They were over here because we are over there.

 

If Bush is going to remove those "conditions," he is going to have to get us out of the Middle East. Is he prepared to do that? Of course not. Because Bush, believing the problem is not our pervasive presence but the lack of freedom in the Middle East, is waging his own ideological war to bring freedom in by force of arms, if necessary.

 

"What every terrorist fears most is human freedom – societies where men and women make their own choices."

 

Very American. But the truth is terrorists do not fear free societies, they flourish in them. The suicide bombers of 9/11, Madrid, and London all plotted their atrocities in free societies. From the Red Brigades, who murdered Italy's Aldo Mori, to the Baader-Meinhoff Gang, who tried to kill Al Haig, to the Basque ETA, the IRA and the Puerto Rican terrorists who tried to assassinate Harry Truman, free societies are where they do their most effective work.

 

Stalin's Russia and Nazi Germany had no trouble with terrorists.

 

"Free people are not drawn to violent and malignant ideologies," declared Bush. Oh? Explain, then, why 70 million Germans, under the most democratic government in their history, gave more than half their votes to Nazis and Communists in 1933? In every plebiscite he held, Hitler won a landslide. In the year of Anschluss and Munich, 1938, Hitler was Time's Man of the Year and far more popular than FDR, who lost 71 seats in the House.

 

During 2006, free Latin peoples brought to power anti-American Leftists Hugo Ch

"Down on the corner.... Out in the street...." happy music dance

you know... dancing in an office chair is an acquired skill it's mostly in the feet and shoulders

Right! on to the reply!

Imagine wanting peace! They must be evil. And it goes without saying that they must hate the military.

wanting peace and sacrificing anything for it is different, SGT. Crabtree was not referring to people that simply wish for peace, he was talking about the ones who will do ANYTHING including allowing hundreds of our men to die to avoid actually fighting the war.

Believe it or not, there are normal sane people in the world who believe that war should be the very last resort. These people don't hate the military. They just don't think killing people is the best way to resolve conflict.

yep, i agree with them, and I'm sure SGT. Crabtree does too, but you're not realizing that war was the last resort. oil for food, sanctions, U.N. inspections, they all failed, so we got out the gun and did what 'diplomacy' couldn't

I despise Bush. And while I don't think Chavez is a Marxist thug (he's NOT) I don't agree with the way Kim Jong does things. Why is it that Republican pundits et al often try to spread the mentality of "you're either with us, or you're a terrorist and/or you support all the 'bad guys'"

 

It's so babyish to think like that. Grow up!

I love Bush, he gave me a war to go to, and a war that can make a difference, i think hes a cool mother fucker.

Chavez needs to be assassinated. and Kim 'mini-me' Jong is very much against us. The swiss on the other hand, are neutral. everyone else is just saying 'we are neutral!' while they screw us over behind the doors. kinda like france.

I love it how "Doc" Crabtree doesn't even bother to back this bullshit up. He knows it's bullshit. But he also knows that most right wing supporters will be happy to go along with anything that makes Democrats/Liberals look bad.

It's his opinion, you agree or disagree, he is pointing out what he sees as the groups of people opposed to the war, what is there to back up?

and the lib's will go along with anything that makes bush or the right wing look bad just the same.

As for people thinking that parents aren't allowed to be upset about their kids fighting in wars - how ridiculous.

no, they can be upset, but who the hell cares, the shit they are doing to stop the war they are so opposed to is getting their children killed, so fuck them. they are NOT loving folks just looking out for their kids, they are controlling insecure assholes supporting sanctions that will get their kids killed.

Imagine that your son signed up for the military. He is basically signing his life away, and pledging blind allegiance to whatever choices the President makes.

and that's his/her choice. as for me, it's my personal choice.

I think it's reasonable for parents to expect that their President will at the very least err on the side of caution when taking their son's life into his own hands. In fact, they should expect him to have a very fucking good reason for sending their son to war.

he did have a good reason, the parents just don't want the kids to go to war, the reason does not matter, it's the instinctive 'protect the next generation' parenting mind kicking in, the same people would be pissed even if the war was perfect.

The fact that Saddam didn't like his Daddy is not a legitimate reason.

how about the FACT that Saddam tried to kill his dad? or the FACT that Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of people, or the FACT that he was using WMD's, and the FACT that he was one of the most powerful military powers in the area.

And what about all the innocent children in Iraq who have been killed? Don't they matter?

yep, but apparently more than the ones SLAUGHTERED by Saddam. goes both ways bitch

Why is smearing the Democrats/Liberals more important to Republicans than actually, say, saving lives?

"OH! we're never gonna quit, just acting like we're animals!" more chair dance DA! Dana! da-dana-da-da-da-da-da-da!!!!!!! half-hearted head bang

anyway, the lib's pull shit just as bad and get more innocent lives killed, fact is, both wings are full of dip shit people that care more about money and themselves than others lives, deal with it, both sides have the good and the bad, i just happen to be of the opinion that the current administration cares more for our lives than the current left, and you are of the other opinion.

25 or 6 To 4 duna na na na, duna na na na, duna na na na.... trombone <--- i think it's a trombone anyway.

OK, i validated your existence by replying to you, so yes, you are alive.

NOW... will you respond to my question? i am asking politely see? I'm even smiling, i just want a serious answer, that's all.

Imagine wanting peace! They must be evil. And it goes without saying that they must hate the military.

 

Believe it or not, there are normal sane people in the world who believe that war should be the very last resort. These people don't hate the military. They just don't think killing people is the best way to resolve conflict.

Seriously Anna? YOU are the one who sounds like a spin doctor... All this Jargon, spinning it so that it appears to everyone that people who actually agree with the war and support MY president are insane or blood thirsty. Wanting peace has NOTHING to do with hate for the military. People do make a generalization about anti-war Americans. It is mostly because of the example that we've seen plastered on the televisions; the propaganda that the biased media drills into the heads of people who can't think for themselves. It appears that the majority of anti-war Americans are normal, people who had little or no opinion about the war at all, until they turned on CNN or NBC to watch the shit that's being fed to the masses. It's these same things that changed the mob's ideas about the war, that cause the people that think for themselves to over-generalize the people that are against the war. Savvy?

I despise Bush. And while I don't think Chavez is a Marxist thug (he's NOT) I don't agree with the way Kim Jong does things. Why is it that Republican pundits et al often try to spread the mentality of "you're either with us, or you're a terrorist and/or you support all the 'bad guys'"

 

It's so babyish to think like that. Grow up!

I happen to adore Bush. I appreciate him. He's a fuck-ton better than that tard clinton was, or that cunt kerry would have been.

Chaves is ABSOLUTELY an Marxist thug... do you not follow him at all? Be reasonable...

It does tend to be kind of an all or nothing situation sometimes... Either you agree with what's going on, or you disagree... If you don