Re: Definition of God

Bob wrote:

> One of the ironies of the theist-atheist debate is that neither side

> can define what they mean by God. Theists claim they know God exists

> but when pressed to define what they mean, they lapse into religious

> jargon. Similarly atheists claim they know that God does not exist but

> they too are unable to define what they mean by this God that does not

> exist.

>

> No wonder such discussions always degernerate into shouting contests.

> Nobody knows what they are talking about.

>

> A proper definition includes a concrete rational description of the

> essential and necessary characteristic of the object in question.

>

> Can you define God in these terms?

>

God is a concept some humans use as a lever [crutch-lever?]. This

concept can be used to gain leverage up ahead in the future. A lever

that moves things in the future but is within "a respect for powers" in

the seen or unseen world. If evolutionary theory is correct, people

with particular religious instincts survived and the atheists died. A

lever that feeds the needs of a system, a system called culture.

A see saw is a lever familiar to everyone. A lever is a stiff rod or

plank that rotates around a fixed point, or fulcrum. Downward motion at

one end results in upward motion at the other end. Depending on where

the fulcrum is located, a_lever_can_multiply either the force applied,

or the distance over which the force is applied...

-------------------------------------

Across the globe and throughout history, human beings have engaged in a

variety of religious practices and have held a diversity of religious

beliefs. These phenomena have been explained in a variety of different

ways by anthropologists, psychologists, and other scholars, as well as

by religious practitioners themselves, with varying degrees of success.

Perhaps more puzzling, and just in need of an explanation, is the fact

that human beings have religion in the first place.

....Religion is a by-product of the way our minds evolved to negotiate

the natural and, more importantly, the social world. Evolutionary

Psychology's naturalistic and cognitivist approach is at variance with

many established traditions in the study of the religion and his

approach may seem wrong-headed to many...

http://www.semcoop.com/detail/0465006965

The explanation for religious beliefs and behaviours is to be found in

the way all human minds work. I really mean all human minds, not just

the minds of religious people or of some of them. I am talking about

humanminds because what matters here are prop-erties of minds that are

found in all members of our species with normal brains. The discoveries

I will mention here are about the ways minds in general (men

Immortalist wrote:

> God is a concept some humans use as a lever

> [crutch-lever?].

Okay. But with some 6 billion people on the planet,

this isn't exactly going out on a limb.

I mean, try to imagine if some aliens visited the

Earth from another planet, and not knowing a lot

about us they asked me about sex, what it is we

do. At this point I tell the aliens that some people

are masochistic, that they get a sexual thrill out

of having pain inflicted on them.

I'd be leaving them with a pretty misleading view

of human sexuality, would I not?

> If evolutionary theory is correct, people with

> particular religious instincts survived and the

> atheists died.

There is absolutely no reason to believe this.

None.

How are you arriving at this claim?

Immortalist wrote:

> God is a concept some humans use as a lever [crutch-lever?].

Curious comment! I had always understood a crutch-lever to be a device

utilised for the forcible removal of a chastity belt.

jtem01@gmail.com wrote:

> > If evolutionary theory is correct, people with

> > particular religious instincts survived and the

> > atheists died.

>

> There is absolutely no reason to believe this.

>

> None.

>

> How are you arriving at this claim?

It may be that you see no reason, or want there not to be one. That

does not mean that there is not one.

For example people living in a group or tribe that does not fight

amongst themselves are more likely to survive and raise more children

than individualists who don't have the support and protection of a

tribe.

This may be augmented by the tribes killing off anyone around that

won't become part of their tribe. Even in recent times religions have

tried to eliminate anyone who is not of their faith. See: the Middle

East.

Tribes probably operate best when there is a strong or chasimatic

leader that has absolute authority. Religious affiliation is much like

other affiliations such as patriotism, loyalty and family. These

combine to produce an advantage in terms of survival and breeding rates

such that they increasingly represent a larger part of the population.

Nowadays it is illegal in most places to just go out and kill people

because they don't agree with you. Not that it always stops them.

On 21 Aug 2006 19:41:57 -0700, "Immortalist"

<reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Can you define God in these terms?

>God is a concept some humans use as a lever [crutch-lever?].

That's epistemological, not ontological.

The Idealist world of the human mind is not subject to the same

constraints that the real objective world is. For example, you can put

your hand on a hot stove burner in your mind and it won't get burned.

Try that in the real objective world. You can also conceive of

contradictory entities in the subjective world - consult "Fuzzy

Thinking" by Bart Kosco. But the real objective world does not permit

contradictions to exist simultaneously. Finally there is no need for

causality in the subjective world of the mind. You can conceive of

anything you want without having to declare its source. However you

can't get by with that in the real objective ontological world. If

causality were not a requirement then there would be no order.

--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

On 21 Aug 2006 23:12:58 -0700, jtem01@gmail.com wrote:

>>people with

>> particular religious instincts survived and the

>> atheists died.

>There is absolutely no reason to believe this.

>None.

>How are you arriving at this claim?

Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever

survived the loss of religion.

"The solution to the basic problem of contemporary society is for

every human being to acknowledge dependence on a Supreme Being."

--Aldous Huxley

--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

> Immortalist schrieb:

> God is a concept ...

No, God is an object (an existent or nonexistent one), and "God" is a

name.

What is a concept is "god".

We characterize objects and define concepts:

-- "God is characterized as ..."

-- "'god' is defined as ..."

#PH

Bob wrote:

> On 21 Aug 2006 23:12:58 -0700, jtem01@gmail.com wrote:

>

>>>people with

>>> particular religious instincts survived and the

>>> atheists died.

>

>>There is absolutely no reason to believe this.

>>None.

>>How are you arriving at this claim?

>

> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever

> survived the loss of religion.

Well, any number of European nations get by with very

little religion.

--

His disciples said, "When will you become revealed

to us and when shall we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed

and take up your garments and place them under your

feet like little children and tread on them, then will you

see the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid"

- Gospel of Thomas.

Cheerful Charlie

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:55:41 -0500, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>

wrote:

>> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever

>> survived the loss of religion.

>Well, any number of European nations get by with very

>little religion.

That is not true. Most European nations are very religious.

But so what? It takes a long time for a nation to disappear.

It is possible that the reason behind deToqueville's observation is

simple, namely, that religion provides the structure that binds people

together, and therefore they do not scatter culturally. The Jews are a

good example - they are culturally similar even after 2000 years of

separation.

Once the dominant religion goes away, people factionalize into smaller

groups which causes them to lose their common heritage. That leads to

the destruction of their culture.

--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

On 22 Aug 2006 06:18:47 -0700, "Paul Holbach"

<paulholbachDELETETHENAME@freenet.de> wrote:

>> Immortalist schrieb:

>

>> God is a concept ...

>

>No, God is an object (an existent or nonexistent one), and "God" is a

>name.

>What is a concept is "god".

>

>We characterize objects and define concepts:

>

>-- "God is characterized as ..."

>

>-- "'god' is defined as ..."

God is the Being whose essence is existence, which means God is

immutable and is therefore the source of existence for all that can

and does exist. God is the energy needed for the Universe to exist.

--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

riplin@Azonic.co.nz wrote:

> jtem01@gmail.com wrote:

>

> > > If evolutionary theory is correct, people with

> > > particular religious instincts survived and the

> > > atheists died.

> >

> > There is absolutely no reason to believe this.

> >

> > None.

> >

> > How are you arriving at this claim?

>

> It may be that you see no reason, or want there not

> to be one. That does not mean that there is not one.

Nope. I have no emotional investment in any particular

answer, except that it be accurate.

> For example people living in a group or tribe that

> does not fight amongst themselves are more likely

> to survive and raise more children than individualists

> who don't have the support and protection of a tribe.

Okay, now this has jack to do with the subject....

> This may be augmented by the tribes killing off

> anyone around that won't become part of their tribe.

If MAY BE? Well, is it or isn't it?

> Tribes probably operate best when there is a strong

> or chasimatic leader that has absolute authority.

You mean someone who doesn't need anything like

religion to control people?

> Religious affiliation is much like other affiliations

> such as patriotism, loyalty and family.

So religion would have been extremely useful to any

early tribe that did not have a strong or charismatic

leader, family relations or patriotism.

> These combine to produce an advantage in terms

> of survival and breeding rates such that they

> increasingly represent a larger part of the population.

You're rationalizing.

Let's take your same "evolution" argument and

widen the context somewhat. Humans & chimps

share a common ancestor. The "Common Chimp"

displays the violent behavior you describe -- literally

searching for outsiders to kill. The Bonobo chimps,

on the other hand, are fairly passive.

Neither has religion.

Nature, "Evolution," demonstrates the exact results

you describe in the absence of religion. Religion does

not explain the behavior, and can't explain it.

Bob wrote:

> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major

> civilization has ever survived the loss of

> religion.

And here I thought it was people who had

(or did not have) religion, and not concepts.

Silly me.

Bob wrote:

> God is the Being whose essence is existence,

> which means God is immutable and is therefore

> the source of existence for all that can and

> does exist. God is the energy needed for the

> Universe to exist.

Your last name must be "Marley," judging from

the weed you're smoking...

Bob wrote:

>

> That is not true. Most European nations are very religious.

>

> But so what? It takes a long time for a nation to disappear.

>

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

Most are NOT very religious and the one's that are,

are often the worst off nations.

Albania et al.

Europe

Norris and Inglehart (2004) found that 39% of those in Britain do not

believe in God. According to a 2004 survey commissioned by the BBC, 44% of

the British do not believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 31% of the

British do not believe in God, although only 10% self-identify as

?atheist.? According to Bruce (2002), 10% of the British self-identify as

an ?agnostic person? and 8% as a ?convinced atheist,? with an additional

21% choosing ?not a religious person.? According to Froese (2001), 32% of

the British are atheist or agnostic. According to Gallup and Lindsay

(1999:121), 39% of the British do not believe in God or a ?Higher Power.?

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 44% of those in France do not

believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 48% of the French do not

believe in God, although only 19% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to

Froese (2001), 54% of the French are atheist or agnostic. According to

Davie (1999), 43% of the French do not believe in God.

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 64% of those in Sweden do not

believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 74% of Swedes said that they

did not believe in ?a personal God.? According to Greeley (2003), 46% of

Swedes do not believe in God, although only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.?

According to Froese (2001), 69% of Swedes are either atheist or agnostic.

According to Gustafsoon and Pettersson (2000), 82% of Swedes do not believe

in a ?personal God.? According to Davie (1999), 85% of Swedes do not

believe in God.

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004) 48% of those in Denmark do not

believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 49% of Danes do not believe

in ?a personal God.? According to Greeley (2003), 43% of Danes do not

believe in God, although only 15% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to

Froese (2001), 45% of Danes are either atheist or agnostic. According to

Gustafsson and Pettersson (2000), 80% of Danes do not believe in a

?personal God.?

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 31% of those in Norway do not believe

in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 54% of Norwegians said that they did

not believe in ?a personal God.? According to Greeley (2003), 41% of

Norwegians do not believe in God, although only 10% self-identify as

?atheist.? According to Gustafsson and Pettersson (2002), 72% of Norwegians

do not believe in a ?personal God.? According to Froese (2001), 45% of

Norwegians are either atheist or agnostic.

Norris and Inglehart (2004) found that 28% of those in Finland do not

believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 33% of Finns do not believe

in ?a personal God.? According to Gustafsson and Pettersson (2002), 60% of

Finns do not believe in a ?personal God.? According to Froese (2001), 41%

of Finns are either atheist or agnostic.

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 42% of those in the Netherlands do

not believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 43% of the Dutch do not

believe in God, although only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.? Houtman and

Mascini (2002) found that 39% of the Dutch are either agnostic or atheist.

According to Froese (2001), 44% of the Dutch are either atheist or

agnostic.

Norris and Inglehart (2004) found that 31% of West Germans do not believe in

God. According to Greeley (2003), 35% of West Germans do not believe in

God, but only 11% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese (2001),

35% of West Germans are either atheist or agnostic. According to Greeley

(2003), 75% of East Germans do not believe in God, with 51%

self-identifying as ?atheist.? According to Pollack (2002), 74% of East

Germans and 38% of West Germans do not believe in God. According to Shand

(1998), 42% of West Germans and 72% of East Germans are either atheist or

agnostic.

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 17% of those in Switzerland do not

believe in God, and Greeley (2003) found that 27% of the Swiss do not

believe in God, but only 4% self-identify as atheist.

Inglehart et al (2004) found that 15% of those in Spain do not believe in

God, and according to Greeley (2003), 18% of Spaniards do not believe in

God, but only 9% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese (2001),

24% of Spaniards are either atheist or agnostic.

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 18% of those in Austria do not

believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 20% of Austrians do not

believe in God, but only 6% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese

(2001), 26% of Austrians are either atheist or agnostic.

Ingelhart et al (2004) found that 6% of those in Italy do not believe in

God. According to Greeley (2003), 14% of Italians do not believe in God,

but only 4% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese (2001), 15% of

Italians are either atheist or agnostic. According to Davis and Robinson

(1999), 23% of Italians disagreed (some strongly) that a God exists who

concerns himself with every human being personally.

According to Greeley (2003), 5% of those in Ireland do not believe in God,

but only 2% accept the self-identification of ?atheist.? According to

Ingelhart et al (2004) and Davie (1999), 4% of the Irish do not believe in

God.

Inglehart et al (2004) found that 4% of those in Portugal do not believe in

God. According to Greeley (2003), 9% of those in Portugal do not believe in

God, with only 2% self-identifying as ?atheist.?

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 43% of those in Belgium do not

believe in God. According to Froese (2001), 42% of Belgians are either

atheist or agnostic.

According Inglehart et al (2004), 8% of those in Albania do not believe in

God. According to O?Brien and Palmer (1993), over 50% of Albanians claim

?no religious alliance.?

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 34% of those in Bulgaria do not believe

in God. According to Greeley (2003), 40% of those in Bulgaria do not

believe in God, but only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.?

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 61% of those in the Czech republic do

not believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 54% of those in the Czech

Republic do not believe in God, although only 20% self-identify as

?atheist.? According to a 1999 Gallup International Poll, over 55% of

Czechs chose ?none? as their religion.

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 17% of those in Slovakia do not believe

in God. According to Greeley (2003), 28% of those in Slovakia do not

believe in God, but only 11% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Gall

(1998), 10% of Slovaks are atheist.

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 7% of those in Croatia do not believe

in God. According to a 1999 Gallup International Poll, 5.5% of those in

Croatia and 6.4% of those in Bosnia chose ?none? as their religion.

According to Ingelhart et al (2004), 35% of those in Slovenia do not believe

in God. According to Greeley (2003), 38% of those in Slovenia do not

believe in God, but only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.?

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 32% of those in Hungary do not believe

in God. According to Greeley (2003), 35% of Hungarians do not believe in

God, a decrease in non-belief from 1981, when 45% reported that they didn?t

believe in God. According to Froese (2001), 46% of Hungarians are either

atheist or agnostic.

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 3% of those in Poland do not believe in

God. According to Greeley (2003), 6% of Poles do not believe in God, but

only 2% self-identifies as an ?atheist.?

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 16% of those in Iceland do not believe

in God. According to Froese (2001), 23% of those in Iceland are either

atheist or agnostic.

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 16% of those in Greece do not

believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 4% of those in Cyprus do not

believe in God, although only 1% choose to identify as ?atheist.? According

to Inglehart et al (2004) and the 1999 Gallup International Poll, less than

1-2% of those in Turkey are nonreligious.

According to Inglehart et al (2004), 4% of Romanians do not believe in God.

--

His disciples said, "When will you become revealed

to us and when shall we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed

and take up your garments and place them under your

feet like little children and tread on them, then will you

see the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid"

- Gospel of Thomas.

Cheerful Charlie

Bob wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:55:41 -0500, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>

> wrote:

>

> >> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever

> >> survived the loss of religion.

>

> >Well, any number of European nations get by with very

> >little religion.

>

> That is not true. Most European nations are very religious.

Really? I didn't think that even the Vatican City could match bible

belt America for religious fervour: But I'm just a backward European,

so what do I know.

Immortalist wrote:

> Bob wrote:

> > One of the ironies of the theist-atheist debate is that neither side

> > can define what they mean by God. Theists claim they know God exists

> > but when pressed to define what they mean, they lapse into religious

> > jargon. Similarly atheists claim they know that God does not exist but

> > they too are unable to define what they mean by this God that does not

> > exist.

> >

> > No wonder such discussions always degernerate into shouting contests.

> > Nobody knows what they are talking about.

> >

> > A proper definition includes a concrete rational description of the

> > essential and necessary characteristic of the object in question.

> >

> > Can you define God in these terms?

> >

I believe "God" to be different to many different people. I will admit

that I am a Christian, largely due to the fact that I don't want to

believe we are born on this earth live out our life and then cease to

exist. I have also seen some seriously strange behavior from someone I

would consider to be demon possed, you might laugh but it's true.

There is evil out there and you can't have it without good. I went

camping with some friends and neighbors when I was about 9 or 10. One

guy named Jeff (foster kid) was a Satan worshiper and read the Satanic

bible. One lady named Linda was just getting into Church and God. We

all walked (about 8 of us) behind my parents property (in the country)

back into the woods heading back to a lean-to that the foster kids

including Jeff had built. For some reason Jeff wanted Linda to go and

was insistent that she went, read on to find out why I was extremely

happy to have her along. It was at dusk and as we walked back Jeff

dissappeared and we begun to here howling which did not sound natural.

We started back to find him and he jumped out of the trees and onto the

road foaming at the mouth and he bit Chris in the chest. We all went

back to the camp site rather freaked out. We decided to send Chris and

Jake down to there house so they could get Ron and Carol, Jeff's foster

parents. In the mean time Jeff was chasing after Chris and Jake and

crossed a field in a matter of seconds and appeared to be floating

somehow. For whatever reason he stopped short of them and turned

around and came back to our camp site. He was floating in a zig zag

and was hissing as he talked. He came up to Linda and started spouting

off evil stuff about Satan having the power and going to take over the

world, Linda was rebuking him and telling him to leave. He left and

dissapeared into the woods. Ron and Darrel (Ron and Carol's son) came

driving back in their pickup to see what was going on. We all started

walking back deciding it wasn't a good idea to camp that night. We

meet up with Ron and Darrel as they were calling for Jeff and he came

back and kept going on about the power a ring he was wearing had.

Later I found out from Carol that Jeff was cold as ice and he ended up

being taken away that night to Phsyciatric Hospital. Never heard

anymore and how Jeff ended up but I can tell you there was something

unnatural about him and from that day on I decided there is for sure

good and evil in this world. Mom had been dragging me to church up to

that point and afterward I went willingly. I would rather invite good

into my heart than hatred or believe there is nothing to this

world/universe bigger than aliens, humans, animals, insects, plants and

such.

just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

Brian

> Bob schrieb:

> God is the Being whose essence is existence.

God is characterized by the theists as the being whose essence is

existence.

But there is absolutely nothing self-contradictory in claiming that the

being whose essence is existence does not exist.

#PH

thepossibilities wrote:

> Immortalist wrote:

>> Bob wrote:

>>> One of the ironies of the theist-atheist debate is that neither side

>>> can define what they mean by God. Theists claim they know God exists

>>> but when pressed to define what they mean, they lapse into religious

>>> jargon. Similarly atheists claim they know that God does not exist but

>>> they too are unable to define what they mean by this God that does not

>>> exist.

>>>

>>> No wonder such discussions always degernerate into shouting contests.

>>> Nobody knows what they are talking about.

>>>

>>> A proper definition includes a concrete rational description of the

>>> essential and necessary characteristic of the object in question.

>>>

>>> Can you define God in these terms?

>>>

>

> I believe "God" to be different to many different people. I will admit

> that I am a Christian, largely due to the fact that I don't want to

> believe we are born on this earth live out our life and then cease to

> exist.

That's a neat trick, I personally can't simply choose to believe

something because I don't like the opposite to be true.

I have also seen some seriously strange behavior from someone I

> would consider to be demon possed, you might laugh but it's true.

Hahaha

> There is evil out there and you can't have it without good. I went

> camping with some friends and neighbors when I was about 9 or 10. One

> guy named Jeff (foster kid) was a Satan worshiper and read the Satanic

> bible. One lady named Linda was just getting into Church and God. We

> all walked (about 8 of us) behind my parents property (in the country)

> back into the woods heading back to a lean-to that the foster kids

> including Jeff had built. For some reason Jeff wanted Linda to go and

> was insistent that she went, read on to find out why I was extremely

> happy to have her along. It was at dusk and as we walked back Jeff

> dissappeared and we begun to here howling which did not sound natural.

> We started back to find him and he jumped out of the trees and onto the

> road foaming at the mouth and he bit Chris in the chest. We all went

> back to the camp site rather freaked out. We decided to send Chris and

> Jake down to there house so they could get Ron and Carol, Jeff's foster

> parents. In the mean time Jeff was chasing after Chris and Jake and

> crossed a field in a matter of seconds and appeared to be floating

> somehow. For whatever reason he stopped short of them and turned

> around and came back to our camp site. He was floating in a zig zag

> and was hissing as he talked. He came up to Linda and started spouting

> off evil stuff about Satan having the power and going to take over the

> world, Linda was rebuking him and telling him to leave. He left and

> dissapeared into the woods. Ron and Darrel (Ron and Carol's son) came

> driving back in their pickup to see what was going on. We all started

> walking back deciding it wasn't a good idea to camp that night. We

> meet up with Ron and Darrel as they were calling for Jeff and he came

> back and kept going on about the power a ring he was wearing had.

> Later I found out from Carol that Jeff was cold as ice and he ended up

> being taken away that night to Phsyciatric Hospital. Never heard

> anymore and how Jeff ended up but I can tell you there was something

> unnatural about him and from that day on I decided there is for sure

> good and evil in this world. Mom had been dragging me to church up to

> that point and afterward I went willingly. I would rather invite good

> into my heart than hatred or believe there is nothing to this

> world/universe bigger than aliens, humans, animals, insects, plants and

> such.

>

> just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

hahaha

---oops---

Really, though, if you believe you actually witnessed that and believe

you have an accurate impression of its meaning, why is your believe in

Christianity "largely due to the fact that [you] don't want to believe

we are born on this earth [to/,] live out our life and then cease to

exist."???

I mean, you think you saw some guy floating, using the power of Satan,

biting people's chests, and whatnot. From your point of view, wouldn't

it be pretty clear cut that God exists, after witnessing that,

regardless of what you wanted to believe?

> I believe "God" to be different to many different people. I will admit

> that I am a Christian, largely due to the fact that I don't want to

> believe we are born on this earth live out our life and then cease to

> exist.

That seems like a completely irrational thing to say.

Just because you hope that death isn't permanent doesn't make it any

different.

What's the point in forcing yourself to believe in something, as you appear

to , simply because the alternative is unthinkable?

How do you actually manage to do that?

Most of us are incapable of such double think.

>I have also seen some seriously strange behavior from someone I

> would consider to be demon possed, you might laugh but it's true.

There's nothing funny about mental health problems or delusions - I can

assure you I'm not laughing- but what makes you think that a medical

condition has anything to do with "demons"?

I have seen some seriously strange behavior (and criminal behaviour) from

other people too- but I didn't automatically conlude that demons were

involed, so why should you?

> There is evil out there and you can't have it without good. I went

> camping with some friends and neighbors when I was about 9 or 10. One

> guy named Jeff (foster kid) was a Satan worshiper and read the Satanic

> bible. One lady named Linda was just getting into Church and God. We

> all walked (about 8 of us) behind my parents property (in the country)

> back into the woods heading back to a lean-to that the foster kids

> including Jeff had built. For some reason Jeff wanted Linda to go and

> was insistent that she went, read on to find out why I was extremely

> happy to have her along. It was at dusk and as we walked back Jeff

> dissappeared and we begun to here howling which did not sound natural.

> We started back to find him and he jumped out of the trees and onto the

> road foaming at the mouth and he bit Chris in the chest. We all went

> back to the camp site rather freaked out. We decided to send Chris and

> Jake down to there house so they could get Ron and Carol, Jeff's foster

> parents. In the mean time Jeff was chasing after Chris and Jake and

> crossed a field in a matter of seconds and appeared to be floating

> somehow. For whatever reason he stopped short of them and turned

> around and came back to our camp site. He was floating in a zig zag

> and was hissing as he talked. He came up to Linda and started spouting

> off evil stuff about Satan having the power and going to take over the

> world, Linda was rebuking him and telling him to leave. He left and

> dissapeared into the woods. Ron and Darrel (Ron and Carol's son) came

> driving back in their pickup to see what was going on. We all started

> walking back deciding it wasn't a good idea to camp that night. We

> meet up with Ron and Darrel as they were calling for Jeff and he came

> back and kept going on about the power a ring he was wearing had.

> Later I found out from Carol that Jeff was cold as ice and he ended up

> being taken away that night to Phsyciatric Hospital. Never heard

> anymore and how Jeff ended up but I can tell you there was something

> unnatural about him and from that day on I decided there is for sure

> good and evil in this world. Mom had been dragging me to church up to

> that point and afterward I went willingly. I would rather invite good

> into my heart than hatred or believe there is nothing to this

> world/universe bigger than aliens, humans, animals, insects, plants and

> such.

>

> just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

>

> Brian

Interesting story.

But I'd be interested in knowing what kind of mushrooms they had on that

site.

--

Steve O

a.a. #2240

"Apparently, as I understand it , I am supposed to repent for being the way

that God made me, and then God will save me from God's wrath?"

>

droth wrote:

> That's a neat trick, I personally can't simply choose to believe

> something because I don't like the opposite to be true.

>

> it's your choice, so you want to believe there is only evil and no good?

> > I have also seen some seriously strange behavior from someone I

> > would consider to be demon possed, you might laugh but it's true.

>

> Hahaha

don't really care if you believe it or not, atheists don't want to

believe something they can't rationalize through science. As long as

you are happy with what you believe it doesn't really matter to me.

> ---oops---

> Really, though, if you believe you actually witnessed that and believe

> you have an accurate impression of its meaning, why is your believe in

> Christianity "largely due to the fact that [you] don't want to believe

> we are born on this earth [to/,] live out our life and then cease to

> exist."???

>

it's more than that, there is too much history surrounding

Christianity, God and Jesus that can be proved for me not to believe.

> I mean, you think you saw some guy floating, using the power of Satan,

> biting people's chests, and whatnot. From your point of view, wouldn't

> it be pretty clear cut that God exists, after witnessing that,

> regardless of what you wanted to believe?

i don't "think" I saw some guy floating I did see him floating, the

others with me witnessed the same thing!!!!. Yes it is clear cut that

God exists!!!!!

Steve O wrote:

> That seems like a completely irrational thing to say.

> Just because you hope that death isn't permanent doesn't make it any

> different.

> What's the point in forcing yourself to believe in something, as you appear

> to , simply because the alternative is unthinkable?

> How do you actually manage to do that?

> Most of us are incapable of such double think.

i don't force myself to believe in God at all. I freely believe in him

and his son Jesus. Again if you want to believe you live out your life

on earth and then it's over and done with and you can be happy with

this then so be it.

If you want to believe there is only evil that's your choice, pretty

dismal belief if you ask me but that's your choice as well.

> There's nothing funny about mental health problems or delusions - I can

> assure you I'm not laughing- but what makes you think that a medical

> condition has anything to do with "demons"?

as for mental health problems I agree there is nothing funny about

them. I believe that people can have mental problems and it's not

anything to do with Satan or demons.

> I have seen some seriously strange behavior (and criminal behaviour) from

> other people too- but I didn't automatically conlude that demons were

> involed, so why should you?

why should I? because I believe in what the Bible says.

>

> Interesting story.

> But I'd be interested in knowing what kind of mushrooms they had on that

> site.

again I don't really care if you believe me or not it's your

perogative, I was there and know what I saw.

> Steve O

> a.a. #2240

> "Apparently, as I understand it , I am supposed to repent for being the way

> that God made me, and then God will save me from God's wrath?"

if you don't believe that man's hearts are truely evil then explain

while all the hateful spiteful stuff is going on in the world. With

all the killings, rapes, wars and so on. Again you can believe how you

wish, all this speak of is from my experience which is pretty clear cut

to me and no one is going to convince me otherwise.

"thepossibilities" <bhunt1273@hotmail.com> wrote in message

snip

> i don't "think" I saw some guy floating I did see him floating, the

> others with me witnessed the same thing!!!!. Yes it is clear cut that

> God exists!!!!!

Yeah, sure. Tell us another story.

--

Robyn

Resident Witchypoo

Atheist Bastard Extraordinaire

#1557

<jtem01@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1156227178.495729.118180@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>

> Immortalist wrote:

>

> > God is a concept some humans use as a lever

> > [crutch-lever?].

>

> Okay. But with some 6 billion people on the planet,

> this isn't exactly going out on a limb.

>

> I mean, try to imagine if some aliens visited the

> Earth from another planet, and not knowing a lot

> about us they asked me about sex, what it is we

> do. At this point I tell the aliens that some people

> are masochistic, that they get a sexual thrill out

> of having pain inflicted on them.

>

> I'd be leaving them with a pretty misleading view

> of human sexuality, would I not?

>

> > If evolutionary theory is correct, people with

> > particular religious instincts survived and the

> > atheists died.

>

> There is absolutely no reason to believe this.

>

> None.

>

> How are you arriving at this claim?

>

There are people who go to their deaths completely

assured that it's not the end. And are convinced they

will live again a much better life. Atheist, however,

have none of this assurance.

Dan Wood, DDS

On 24 Aug 2006 08:48:25 -0700, "thepossibilities"

<bhunt1273@hotmail.com> wrote:

>

>Steve O wrote:

>> That seems like a completely irrational thing to say.

>> Just because you hope that death isn't permanent doesn't make it any

>> different.

>> What's the point in forcing yourself to believe in something, as you appear

>> to , simply because the alternative is unthinkable?

>> How do you actually manage to do that?

>> Most of us are incapable of such double think.

>

>i don't force myself to believe in God at all. I freely believe in him

>and his son Jesus. Again if you want to believe you live out your life

>on earth and then it's over and done with and you can be happy with

>this then so be it.

Why do you morons invent beliefs we don't have?

Learn the difference between your stupid, ignorant and smug straw man,

and the actuality of HAVING ZERO REASON TO BELIEVE YOUR MYTHS.

>If you want to believe there is only evil that's your choice, pretty

>dismal belief if you ask me but that's your choice as well.

Another straw man to the point of lying.

Why can't you assholes have a shred of honesty?

>> There's nothing funny about mental health problems or delusions - I can

>> assure you I'm not laughing- but what makes you think that a medical

>> condition has anything to do with "demons"?

>

>as for mental health problems I agree there is nothing funny about

>them. I believe that people can have mental problems and it's not

>anything to do with Satan or demons.

Yet you believe other ridiculous things because of your religion - to

the point of inventing lies about those who don't.

>> I have seen some seriously strange behavior (and criminal behaviour) from

>> other people too- but I didn't automatically conlude that demons were

>> involed, so why should you?

>

>why should I? because I believe in what the Bible says.

Then you're a brainwashed idiot.