Re: What Ever Happened to Peace On Earth

[V]

On Dec 10, 11:46 am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> I've been wondering the same question. If the Christians are for war,
> who's gonna be for peace and the environment?
>
> Well, their Christmas cliche notwithstanding, they voted for the most
> warmongering candidate. But, of course, the cliche will be repeated
> this year one more time. I don't know yet, but I'd like to see what's
> the Devil's position on these issues.
>
> Willie Nelson sings it like it is:
>
> (Whether you support the candidate he endorses, or, if you are a
> little more skeptical and want to support our own "candidate" below,
> be sure not to be part of the herd. The sheep are armed and
> dangerous.)
>
> Here's the video...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIzfQx98XSg
>
> Here's the lyrics...
>
> Peace On Earth
> What Ever Happened to Peace On Earth
> by Willie Nelson
>
> There's so many things going on in the world
> Babies dying
> Mothers crying
> How much oil is one human life worth
> And what ever happened to peace on earth
>
> We believe everything that they tell us
> They're gonna' kill us
> So we gotta' kill them first
> But I remember a commandment
> Thou shall not kill
> How much is that soldier's life worth
> And whatever happened to peace on earth
>
> (Bridge)
> And the bewildered herd is still believing
> Everything we've been told from our birth
> Hell they won't lie to me
> Not on my own damn TV
> But how much is a liar's word worth
> And whatever happened to peace on earth
>
> So I guess it's just
> Do unto others before they do it to you
> Let's just kill em' all and let God sort em' out
> Is this what God wants us to do
>
> (Repeat Bridge)
> And the bewildered herd is still believing
> Everything we've been told from our birth
> Hell they won't lie to me
> Not on my own damn TV
> But how much is a liar's word worth
> And whatever happened to peace on earth
>
> Now you probably won't hear this on your radio
> Probably not on your local TV
> But if there's a time, and if you're ever so inclined
> You can always hear it from me
> How much is one picker's word worth
> And whatever happened to peace on earth
>
> But don't confuse caring for weakness
> You can't put that label on me
> The truth is my weapon of mass protection
> And I believe truth sets you free
>
> (Bridge)
> And the bewildered herd is still believing
> Everything we've been told from our birth
> Hell they won't lie to me
> Not on my own damn TV
> But how much is a liar's word worth
> And whatever happened to peace on earth
>
> OUR MAN TO THE WHITE HOUSEhttp://webspawner.com/users/elections2008
>
> WELCOME TO THE JUNGLEhttp://webspawner.com/users/donquijote















Well, you seem to miss the fact that the Xtians are the lesser of 2
evils..for if atheists were running things the killing would be much
worse.

We should be kissing the asses of the politicians that they are NOT
atheists.

If you like politics with no God go to Russia, China, North Korea or
Burma.

Atheists look at this topic with tunnel vision.

Atheists like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion
would never have been invented.

Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other
religions. But many of these religious practitioners also do good
things.

You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and
clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.

Atheist organized?

There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but
nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations.

Political / religious boundaries are tough to define if one is seeking
perfection and exactness. If we examine out own lives we can see we
step outside the boundaries of healthful and peaceful living ourselves
many times. So just as we do, so do others. Ego is also injected into
the equation. And generally anyone that enters politics has an
overblown ego and craves power and attention.

When a politician of a certain religion gets voted in, you get 'the
whole package' and the religious morals and values are part of that
package. Generally religion does not become a problem in politics
unless the religion is imposed against the will of people it is being
imposed on.

Other times humanity can be most grateful for having such religious
values being imposed on them.

We can see that come to fruition with the many countries that the US
has been at war with and subsequently lost the war. If we were a
country that did not apply Christian principles to our captors
millions more would have been killed.

Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity. Atheist like to claim religion
killed so many people...well without religion in world the killings
would have been much worse.

I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the
Secular Humanism Foundation and yes even Sam Harris and others about
this very topic...none had the courtesy to reply.

No, I prefer to keep things as they are and keep religions, even with
all their imperfections. I believe religions do more good than harm. I
shutter to think what the world would be like if it was composed
solely of atheists.

When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to
say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
creation of the Christians."

When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking
at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I
speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule,
where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of
the church.

For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian
principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to
live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this
world.

"The Corporal Works of Mercy"

To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead

"The Spiritual Works of Mercy"

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead

You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part.

What about our children, parents and loved ones?

Wouldn't we wish the same for them?

We have no loved ones?

What about our neighbors?

The Christian ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be
treated. As we give ~ so we receive.

Even if an atheist, as we give peace - we receive inner peace as many
of the tools I mentioned above do not require belief in God, they only
requirement is a desire to be at peace and to bring peace to others.

This is the Christian doctrine in a nutshell, when we put principles
before personalities.

As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor."

This is universal truth that transcends man made religions.

Remember, we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction
and forget perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form
is of the soul.

There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual paths, no
one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said that
walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge.

But if we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can
find tools that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or
believer.

When you get rid of one thing it makes room for another.

The facts are if people are devoid of religion...they generally stink
as humans.

Until atheism can replace religion as a viable and REAL way to inner
peace and a reverence of humanity it can never take over the world.

Sure there are theists that stink, but lets look at the facts and see
that the vast majority of people are theists or religious or believe
in hereafter, so the pot is enormous that we draw from when we pull
out examples of evildoing theists.

The USA was founded with God in the details. I suggest atheists that
hate a religious based country like the US move to China or Russia.
Then you can live your dream right now, in your God free country.

In China, it was a common practice to execute political prisoners with
one bullet to the head..then they sent the bill for the bullet to the
family of the executed man.

That is where separation of state and religion can lead. Once religion
is out, then the only thing left in control is ego.


See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=380.0


http://groups.google.com/group/alt....gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0


Sure, some 'spiritually based atheist' can far surpasses many theists
in kindness and virtue many times...so it just depends on what 'type
of atheist' you are talking about?

But these sort of atheists are very rare to encounter.

"People that practice religion are worried about going to hell -
people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't
want to go back."

A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do
not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until
they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace)
they seek.

It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
between them and happiness.

So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of
spiritual values.

Always remember...one thing only goes so far with giving a person a
good life. Seek balance.

Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect, but we can all do
better at being humane if we try.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

There are many flavors of atheists...natural atheists, personal
atheists, explicit atheists, implicit atheists weak atheists, strong
atheists, discovery atheists, reactionary atheists, indoctrinated
atheists and of course the bad ass atheists with attitude aka BAAWA
varieties. But the defining characteristic that leads an atheist to
peace is whether they are a 'spiritual based atheist' or 'defiance
based atheist.''

The business of humanism is 'all our business' if we with to live life
at peace. Egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to
be open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your
growth and sustenance for life - as no one person is god. As a
freethinking agnostic I AM FREE to look for truth wherever the road
takes me. I discriminate against no one. As such, I study with the
Christians, the Buddhists, the Jews, the Muslims, the Taoists and even
find truth as I study with the atheists.

When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace. I suggest any atheists wishing
to find inner peace within their life adopt the creed of the atheists
(their version of prepackaged morals) and become secular humanists as
a good first start.

The 'informal creed' of atheism.

An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy.

An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he
must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life,
to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.

An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a
knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will
help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow
man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital
should be built instead of a church.

An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer
said.

An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.
He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He
wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a
god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a
hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our
own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the
time is now."

http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/



"The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles"

We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to
explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature
for salvation.

We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute
to the betterment of human life.

We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is
the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian
elites and repressive majorities.

We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and
state.

We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of
resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.

We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so
that they will be able to help themselves.

We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race,
religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or
ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of
humanity.

We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future
generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other
species.

We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our
creative talents to their fullest.

We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to
fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to
exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and
informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We
want to nourish reason and compassion.

We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still
to be made in the cosmos.

We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to
novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of
despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal
significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than
despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance,
joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love
instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of
ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.

We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that
we are capable of as human beings.

Council for Secular Humanism




Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2

 

[V]

I agree that war stinks. But we are in a new era of human life. We are
entering the 'post crude' phase of our existence and we will see much
more turmoil in the near future than just the few killing that have
come our of our current war effort.

You see, we will be at war over crude until the last buckets have been
sucked from the earth...so get used to it.

As we would leave the Middle East...China or Russia would step in.

See:

http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-Introduction/dp/0805055762

China has triple our pop and a fraction of our oil reserves within its
borders.

So either we play bodyguard to the Middle East or China or Russia
will.

You like typing on the 'puter don't you?

Well, without the crude to make the diesel to power the train that
brings the coal to the power plant you would not be typing on the
'puter.

WAKE UP GUYS!!!!

It seems everyone wishes to hide their heads in the sand when it comes
to this subject of peak oil. We can't depend on the President to come
clean with the public. All his energies are spent just trying to keep
the oil flowing. He can't admit that the oil will stop in the not so
distant future, no matter what we do. It is a problem beyond his as
well as all of our control.

As they say in 12 Step programs - admitting you have a problem is step
1. And our country cannot admit it, after all, admitting this problem
would raise hell with our retirement funds. And until we can admit it,
we cannot begin on our long road to a 'semblance' of recovery.

And in the big picture, we can't fix the problem, we can only postpone
the inevitable. But buying a little more time would make things much
more livable in the not so distant future than the current path we are
headed in.

The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are
pretending this problem does not exist. We can only blame ourselves,
for it is just how we have built our world over the years....too many
people, living outside of natures intended balance and not an infinite
supply of energy to fuel all our demands.

It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning
trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means
allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But
ten billion people can't burn the trees! (Ten billion people is a
conservative estimate of world population in the not so distant
future. We are at 7 people billion now.)

The World Coal Institute estimates world energy reserves as follows:

"At current production levels coal will be available for at least the
next 155 years compared to 41 years for oil and 65 years for gas."

http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=21

Even though this was written a few years ago and it is based on
'current production and consumption' it gives the same haunting
message to the generations to come.

We may not exactly see the end of our free flowing energy as we know
it - but some of our descendants will in the not so distant future.
This is the legacy they will inherit from us. But before the energy
dries up completely massive changes in our world will have taken
place.

Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no
return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it
today when it comes to their energy demands.

And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption

Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if
we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take
the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism.

And what does all that consumerism lead to?

It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will
be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious
lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream'

You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all
its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all
the needs the people crave.

The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and
all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth
gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are
depleted.

Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World
banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to
fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for
Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go
up...fueled by spending of the consumer.

It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get
away from.

Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low
interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a
life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it
comes to durable goods.

All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our
retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global
warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the
governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem
artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them
happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it
goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW

You see, no other animal destroys its environment except mankind. We
are the only ones that do not accept and live within our comfortable
means. We not only debt with our finances we debt with our
environment. What we are borrowing in terms of petroleum, coal and
natural gas takes millions of years for nature to make. Yet we are
using it all up in just a few hundred years...we can never pay it
back.

I think our countries future will be....'America...a Democratic,
Communist Nation Under God.'

And maybe I am using the wrong word with communism? Maybe it should be
Nationalism? Socialism? I don't know since I have little interest in
politics.

As far for what I means, it could be compared somewhat to Plato's
Republic. Where the republic came first and people came second. But
with the US, the injection of Democratic values as well as a spiritual
foundation that supports our country would 'hopefully' separate us
from the atheist based communists that have been run as
dictatorships.

Without energy our country is open for takeover ... no jets...no
tanks...no transport on the ground or in the air. Luckily we will
still have nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers as long as
the uranium holds out. But the jets on the flattop all use jet fuel.
All the supplies for those subs and carriers petroleum dependent. So
long before the crude dries up the government must 'secure a supply'
of crude for it own needs.

Other countries such as Russia that have a good supply of crude may
not be so kind to keep on selling it to us and we need a 'local and
continual' source somewhat within our borders. You see, jet fuel as
well as gasoline deteriorates and cannot be stored indefinitely. So we
must always be producing some of it to replace the stale stuff to
supply the military. But, that's why we elect politicians to deal with
these troubles

As our world changes and our drug supply dries up, things will only
get worse. And the bigger the city - the bigger the hellhole it will
become. And this time RIGHT NOW is the defining moment as to whether
most of our population will die off or not in the crisis that awaits
us in the not so distant future.

When it comes to the future, I see people living in miniature houses
(the lucky ones that survive that is, after all most of the population
died off long ago from starvation, freezing to death or from the
riots) with roofs shingled completely with solar material.

They drive up to their house on an electric scooter that is recharged
from their solar roof. If they are higher up the totem pole they may
have a solar golf cart. But in either case, luck must still be on
their side for without the sun shinning to charge it, their
transportation sits idle. (Not much lead left to build big
batteries...China gobbled it all up, so we have to make due with very
small storage cells.)

They work for the government and in exchange the government feeds and
clothes them from their warehouses. You see, we have become a sort of
'Communist Democracy' for without that bold leap and a desire 'to put
our country first' Russia or China would have stepped in to acquire
some new real estate.

The warehouses are fed from government owned coal fired steam
locomotives. Diesel dried up long ago, so it was either wood or coal
to fuel the trains. It did not take our government long to realize
this. the electric plants only had to shut down sporadically for 8
months so until they could build the first of a large fleet of steam
locomotives.

This was a 'slight' government oversight. They never figured that the
coal fired power plants were fed with 'diesel powered' locomotives.
They kept concentrated on the prediction that we had a hundred of
years of coal left, but were oblivious as to how that coal is
delivered to the power plant. But all these changes have some bright
spots in them. As the coal producers were able to hire many more
workers to manually mine coal, as the diesel powered mining equipment
sit idle from lack of diesel fuel.

Now some of the states or bigger cities had the foresight to build one
or two electric rail trolleys for public transport. Your only problem
is getting to the main road to catch the trolley and then it is a
straight ride to the government warehouse.

What happened to Private industry & Money?

Money is nothing more than stored energy. But since the crude dried
up, the 'real energy' behind the money has vanished...and so did
private industry. What about the coal mines...all government owned. If
you want to eat you work..it is that simple.

So, what is money good for nowadays...to wipe your ass?

Not really, the government supplied toilet paper works better than
that.

Martha Stewart syndrome died out long ago, now people are happy to eat
rice and beans and get a clean glass of water to drink.

After all, the government can't afford to fool around decorating
everyone's house, they can hardly produce enough food to keep a
fraction of the population alive. Yes, tractors, reapers and farming
is very crude intensive...but no one bothered to think about that as
they continued to squander the worlds petroleum resources.

On a positive note, since most of the population died off from
'natural causes', the government does not have to worry about passing
'population control' any longer. They tried to get that universally
opposed program passed for many years, but the public just would not
go for it...too UN-American...goes against our religious
upbringings...too controversial and all of the rest. We can still hear
the cries now...Communist!...Atheist!...Baby
Killer....Hitler....Impeach the President!!!!

Such objections are only subjective and prejudicial states of mind.
As such, all problems related to 'controversial subjects' such as this
are problems created in the mind...the mind of ego based, prejudicial
man. If you find yourself being distracted with such thoughts as 'too
controversial' just ask yourself if the proposed controversy is true,
false or I don't know?

This introspective method may help you become truth based and not ego
based. You will have made a 'choice divorced of need'...you wont 'need
your ego' to support the truth...the truth will be able to stand on
its own.

But nature helped us humans out with that hard decision - for nature
does not discriminate nor find the truth too controversial or
provocative or opinionated to be true. And in the end, nature settled
the dispute of population control with even handed justice of 75% of
our population dying off, ever reminding us all that nature does not
bow to man...it is always man that bows to nature.

But, people hold no grudges against nature and are more in harmony
with nature and enjoy a simpler life nowadays. People pick pine
needles from trees to make their tea, since there is no jet fuel to
import any Darjeeling tea or coffee. Once in a while people are able
to kill a bird, a rat or cat to supplement their diet - so we still
can find a place of gratitude in our life for such gifts.

Of course one problem still haunts the world?

The last remaining buckets of crude will soon be gone and they have
still not found out how to make the tires for the solar powered golf
carts and scooters without that critical ingredient of crude oil?

Add it all together and you have 'America...a Democratic, Communist
Nation Under God.' as the 'best fit ' equation.

And for dessert add 'politics as usual' and we can see nothing
substantive will be done in the US to fix our energy woes until it is
too late. (Really it can't be fixed, we can only slowed down the
inevitable at this point.)

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car?


BTW, do I like communism?

No, I like things EXACTLY as they are. But what I like doesn't
matter...neither does what you like matter. That's the point, for the
US to survive, we must put 'what matters to our country' on the front
burner. And as our country survives so do we survive.

Alan Watts used to say, it doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't
matter what you like, it doesn't matter what you hope for...all that
really matters is what IS.

Sure we keep our treasured paper money, our guns, and what have you.
The atheists can still be atheists and the Christians, Muslims and
Jews can still worship as they like...that is why we would be a free
democracy...of sorts.

But the difference is, instead of the ego based decisions that
politicians and the titans of business get sucked into, they will put
the long term viability as top priority over personal profit. We must
all pull together and stop pulling in counterproductive directions.

The gov needs to cut the fat and stop all this foolish sickness that
they are addicted to in Washington. Hire yourself some truth based
philosophers and futurists as Socrates suggested in the Republic as an
oversight committee to keep you guys on track.

One important thing would be to add an addendum to the constitution or
bill of rights or whatever other documents that outlines what we are
'now' all about...something that is clear advice that we can all look
to and not the 1000 page BS that politician use to hide their
sickness.

And yes,...hiding behavior is a signpost of die-ease.

And put it right upfront in the addendum as to why things changed...we
were energy whores and had no other choice.

But realize this, throughout history many great nations that once were
are not around any longer. Hopefully the US will understand this and
start accepting the truth that something has to give and it can't be
business as usual...it doesn't matter what you like...it doesn't
matter what you hope for...all that really matters is what is.


See:

See:

http://www.algore.org/forum/al_gore..._crisis/why_dont_we_do_anything_about_global_

http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573

http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/0691116253

http://www.lastoilshock.com/

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-Introduction/dp/0805055762

http://www.amazon.com/Long-Emergency-Converging-Catastrophes-Twenty-First/dp/0871138883

http://dieoff.org/



Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist

 

[V]

With reference to your comment on the environment...why don't we do
anything about global warming?

We don't do much because we can't.

To do anything substantive would cause a financial and population
backlash of unimaginable proportions.

And what we could do, even with drastic measures, would not cure
global warming but only slow things down.

In addition, there is no one global entity to control all the green
house gas emitters. China an India plan on adding more dirty coal
burning electric plants to feed their burgeoning economies.

Yes, we have Kyoto, but...the largest polluters of green house gasses
have exempted themselves from it.

"As of June 2007, a total of 172 countries and other governmental
entities have ratified the agreement (representing over 61.6% of
emissions from Annex I countries). Notable exceptions include the
United States and Australia. Other countries, like India and China,
which have ratified the protocol, are not required to reduce carbon
emissions under the present agreement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

We can't start wars over green house gas like we do oil...even then we
would have to go to war right here at home before we point fingers at
other countries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm

As far as foreign wars, many of these newly rich nations seem to be in
a war of sorts to see who can build the biggest and the tallest. Well,
the bigger the building is the more energy it takes to power it and
the more green house gas is given off to pay for the ego behind the
monstrosity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_the_world#Tallest_buildings

Thoreau once said when people invited him to dinner they 'put their
pride' in how fancy and expensive a meal they could make. Whereas he
put his pride in how simple and inexpensive a meal he could make.

Where do we put our pride?

We surely don't put it in living within our means and in balance with
nature.

In the US, 93.2% of our electric comes from non renewable, greenhouse
gas producing methods.

If we are looking to hydroelectric and renewable sources, 4.46% of our
electric comes from hydroelectric and 2.34% comes from renewable
energy production.

Out of this 2.34% of renewable sources, an undisclosed portion still
contributes to global warming despite its prestige of being a
'renewable energy source' as it involves the burning of wood, black
liquor, wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste,
tires, agriculture byproducts and biomass.

Only a fraction of the 2.34% of renewable electric energy that is
produced comes from geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy,
and wind.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates.html

Lets say we decided to turn off the coal fired plants for 25% of a 24
hour day to save some fossil fuel.

Saving 25% seems to be a modest proposal.

So they shut the coal fired plants down for 6 hours during peak
daytime operation.

And lets say we don't care that all the frozen food in the markets
will thaw out and the refrigerated foods will spoil.

And lets say the workforce will sacrifice their jobs for the 6 hours
every day while the electric is shut off.

And we put up with the gridlock and accidents from not having traffic
lights and the doctors and hospitals all shut down.

And people just hold their noses over the backed up sewage that cannot
be processed when the electric is off.

The real problem with trying to implement even a modest 25% fossil
fuel saving plan is this - it just can't be done.

Coal fired plants are not of the nature to be turned off and turned on
with the flip of a switch.

If a coal fired plant was turned off and completely cooled down it
would take many days to bring it back online. If a coal powered plant
was shut down even for 6 hours, it would take between 10 to 12 hours
to bring it back to operational capacity.

In addition, when the plant is started back up, all the fossil fuel
that is consumed in the startup does not make electric, it just goes
to bring things back up to speed. And during startup, the plant
operates at lower temperature and produces more pollution at those
lower temperatures. And if that is not enough, startups of that
magnitude send out power surges that destroy transformers and cause
grid problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant

Well, if saving 25% from the coal plants does not seem feasible, what
about going to the American public?

Can we cut back on GNP by 25%?

Cut back on utility use at home by 25%

Cut back on driving by 25%?

Cut back on consumption whether it be food or hard goods by 25%?

Cut back on interstate trucking by 25%?

And cut back in all related areas that use energy by 25%?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The 'public' gets their underpants in a bind when the GNP drops at
all...even when it is still in the positive numbers.

They start a panic in the stock market when the GNP is +1%, so how can
it survive a -25% GNP drop?.

And as for cutting back on our demands...well it goes against the
American dream.

Are you starting to see the folly of thinking mankind can stop global
warming, when mankind is built on such a ludicrous foundation?

There is no 'simple or easy answer' to this issue nor is there even a
'not so simple and hard answer' to our dilemma.

The world is in a death spiral. It is just how we have built our world
over the years.

It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning
trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means
allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But
ten billion people can't burn the trees!

The World Coal Institute estimates world energy reserves as follows:

"At current production levels coal will be available for at least the
next 155 years compared to 41 years for oil and 65 years for
gas." (See footnote #1)

http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=21

Even though this was written a few years ago and it is based on
'current production and consumption' it gives the same haunting
message to the generations to come.

We may not see the end of our free flowing energy as we know it - but
some of our descendants will in the not so distant future. This is the
legacy they will inherit from us.

Mankind is just a little 'too smart' for his environment and learned
to live beyond natures intended means.

But mankind does not seem 'smart enough' to fix the mess that it has
created.

Yes, mankind has done great things over their reign on earth, but we
must always remember nature does not bow to us..in the end we all bow
to nature.

Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no
return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it
today.

And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption

Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if
we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take
the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism.

And what does all that consumerism lead to?

It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will
be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious
lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream'

I love our country and would rather live here than anyplace else in
the world. But be that as it may, our country and the rest of the
world is built on unsustainable means and the bill is coming due soon
for our spending spree.

Since the US is said to be about 75% Christian and was founded on
maximum freedom for its people, I doubt whether the US will ever come
up with a population control plan. It would be too controversial and
it goes against promoting life, certain religions and personal
freedoms.

And let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- for if I had to die
in a hot box from global warming, I would rather die with the
Christians praying than with the atheists cursing.

See:

"What the hell would we need 'spiritual values' for when we can have
real values."

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0.

And while I cannot deny the wisdom of promoting life as many religions
profess and personal freedom, sometime we must accept the lesser of
two evils if promoting life turns into being more destructive to life
than 'not promoting' it.

It then becomes a decision whether to choose between the 'greater good
for the whole' or the 'greater personal right for the individual'...
and the whole be damned. (Whole meaning entire human population of our
planet.)

For instance, on a farm if the plants are planted packed like sardines
(or 'packed like sushi' as they say in Japan) the plants do not
flourish.

In nature, trees that are overcrowded weed themselves out by nature's
decree. But if man forced the trees to not weed out and forces
crowding the trees may die from disease due to a forced and
unsustainable growth plan.

So it goes with how our planet is evolving...a sad but exactly true
statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

Now, I a not a tree hugger, green peace freak or communist. I drive
dirt bikes, love 2 stroke 500cc thumpers, run jet skis and snowmobiles
and could consume along with the best of em.

But I do respect and admire nature and most of all I respect and
admire life and have had to 'mend my ways' so to speak once it sunk in
how things were. And in the process I have given up a lot of personal
desires for the greater good of the whole.

You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all
its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all
the needs the people crave.

The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and
all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth
gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are
depleted.

Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World
banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to
fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for
Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go
up...fueled by spending of the consumer.

It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get
away from.

Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low
interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a
life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it
comes to durable goods.

All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our
retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global
warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the
governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem
artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them
happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it
goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW

You see, no other animal destroys its environment except mankind. We
are the only ones that do not accept and live within our comfortable
means. We not only debt with our finances we debt with our
environment. What we are borrowing in terms of petroleum, coal and
natural gas takes millions of years for nature to make. Yet we are
using it all up in just a few hundred years...we can never pay it
back.

And even if you are of a religious bent that think God created it all
6000 years ago. What took 6000 years will still be used up in a
fraction of the time it took to create it.

Some theists say we need to pray harder to God to fix our mess. Other
theists say it is Gods punishment raining down on us?

No telling since God doesn't have much to say on this topic.

See:

'Why is God silent - I don't know?'

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0

The scary thing is China and India are just starting to bloom with
their demands for fossil fuels We haven't seen anything yet with the
meteoric rise of gas, energy and over consumption.

In China the per capita car ownership rate is 40 car owners per 1000
persons. In India it is much lower, running 8 cars per 1000 people. As
these two giants evolve more of their population will want cars...in
India, they are making a $2500 car as well.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/percapita_car_o.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20394364/

But what can one say about the problem unless people just cut back
reproducing?

Everyone has a desire to have some sex stimulation and through that
stimulation comes more and more people.

And everyone has a desire to keep warm when it is cold or to keep cool
in the heat or move about the earth and wear clothes. And it is from
all those desires that global warming fueled through the expenditure
of fossil fuels takes place.

But the sad reality is even if people cut back having babies, we are
only delaying the inevitable and that alone will not fix the problem.
It can be compared to men stuck underwater in a crippled submarine.
The more they move around, the quicker they run out of air and die.
The less they move, the longer they can live...but the end result is
the same.

Now maybe some genius will come up with a replacement for petroleum,
natural gas and coal to meet all out needs. But it is unrealistic to
think we can grow enough corn to fuel all the trucks, airlines, cargo
ships, cars and other needs we humans have in addition run all the
power plants and factories, heat and cool our homes.

You see all our energy needs are met with non sustainable non
renewable resources whether it be coal, petroleum, or natural gas.
Even nuclear power is dependent on the mining of uranium and has
limits as to how long the supply will last.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4287300/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/uranium.html

But lets not project too far in the future and try to keep our minds
on the problems at hand.

$10 a gallon gas in the future? What about $30 a gallon gas??

No doubt! All we have to do is look to history for the answer.

When I first took notice of gas prices in the early 70's gas was .22
cents a gallon.

No one would have thought that gas would take a 1360% rise in price in
3 1/2 decades.

In addition to cars and gasoline, tons of other products and
industries are dependent on crude oil as a component for their
products.

http://www.lmoga.com/refoutput.htm

I can see how life has degenerated in recent years and this is just
the tip of the berg for things to come. I am not an alarmist as one
lady accused me, but I would do humanity a disservice if I did not
bring this topic up now an again for discussion.

See my post

"Your sanity is my sanity and my sanity is your sanity."

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=628.0

When you bring up population control the talk naturally turns to China
and India.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2872/is_1_27/ai_71563390

And population control alone is a controversial subject to discuss

...."when you get beyond the mythology and seriously examine the one-
child policy, it is clear the policy is not viable even if one can
stomach the horrendous human rights violations it entails."

From:

http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/countries-of-the-world/asia/china/chinas-one-child-policy/

But in reality, there is no such thing as 'opinionated' -
'provocative' 'controversial' subjects. The contemplative life finds
it joy in discovering truth. And the truth does not set such limits on
itself as being 'too controversial' to be true.

These are only subjective and prejudicial states of mind. Such 'mind
blocks' may bother one, but do not bother another. As such, all
problems related to 'controversial subjects' such as this are problems
created in the mind...the mind of ego based, prejudicial man.

If you find yourself being distracted with such thoughts as 'too
controversial' just ask yourself if the proposed controversy is true,
false or I don't know?

That method may help you become truth based and not ego based. You
will have made a 'choice divorced of need'...you wont 'need your ego'
to support the truth...the truth will be able to stand on its own.

Any President would do doubt have little success in getting anything
done with population control. We can hear the cries
now...Communist!...Atheist!...Baby Killer....Hitler!!!!

So the best thing for the President to do would be to put it before
the public every 2 or 3 years in a national election to get America's
verdict on the subject and our country mindful of the issue.

Put America on record.

Then at least the President could say he tried, but the people of the
US prefer to thumb their noses at the rest of the world and the US
will do as they like.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption

If anyone is against population control and has no other viable
alternative to offer other than Communist!...Atheist!...Baby
Killer....Hitler! - when they are asked what can be done to slow down
global warming - slow down over consumption - slow down the
destruction of the human race that hell bent on growing at an
unsustainable pace - they should respond: (See footnote #2)

"I just don't care...that is someone else's problem not mine."

Now, I don't claim to have the magic bullet to fix all our woes. I'm
just a simple philosopher not a scientist or genius. All I can do is
to bring the problem to the forefront and ask that we all work in a
healthier direction that the one we have been headed in. And when we
can understand that all humans are interdependent and not independent
of one another, we come to realize that we all share the same breath.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=8.0


Footnote #1:

Something to think about is coals dependence on crude. Our crude oil
(41 years of reserves) will be depleted much sooner than our coal (155
years of reserves) This brings up certain problems of production and
distribution. For instance, coal is delivered to power plants by rail.
The trains are powered by diesel fuel, which is made from crude oil.
Now, we may be able to resort back to old technology and start running
coal fired steam locomotives to deliver the coal, but this will have a
negative effect on the green house gas emissions. But even before the
coal can be delivered it has to be mined and processed...and most of
that mining is powered by crude as well.

http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/mcoal.htm


Footnote #2:

It seems global warming can't be fixed, it can only be slowed
down...too many people on earth to fix it...to many demands...too many
cravings...best we can do is to slow it down.


Postscript

Who Killed the Electric Car?

It would be most worth while. The documentary not only discuses
electric vehicle in depth, but cover hydrogen fuel cells, ethanol,
methanol and biodiesel. A truly outstanding educational tool for
anyone interested in this subject.

Just a few tidbits from the film...a hydrogen cell car cost upwards of
one million dollars. Every gallon of gas we burn puts 19 pounds of Co2
in the atmosphere and producing hydrogen for the fuel cells as well as
ethanol is, I am sorry to say...crude intensive!

Get it from your library today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car?


Also See:

http://www.algore.org/forum/al_gore..._crisis/why_dont_we_do_anything_about_global_

http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573

http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/0691116253

http://www.lastoilshock.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-Introduction/dp/0805055762

http://www.amazon.com/Long-Emergency-Converging-Catastrophes-Twenty-First/dp/0871138883

http://dieoff.org/



Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
vfr44@aol.com

 

[donquijote1954]

On Dec 10, 6:36 pm, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
> I agree that war stinks. But we are in a new era of human life. We are
> entering the 'post crude' phase of our existence and we will see much
> more turmoil in the near future than just the few killing that have
> come our of our current war effort.
>
> You see, we will be at war over crude until the last buckets have been
> sucked from the earth...so get used to it.
>
> As we would leave the Middle East...China or Russia would step in.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Resource-Wars-Landscape-Conflict-Introduction/d...
>
> China has triple our pop and a fraction of our oil reserves within its
> borders.
>
> So either we play bodyguard to the Middle East or China or Russia
> will.
>
> You like typing on the 'puter don't you?
>
> Well, without the crude to make the diesel to power the train that
> brings the coal to the power plant you would not be typing on the
> 'puter.

Well, the sermon have been cut down to its bare minimum, so I can give
a precise and concise answer:

It's not about powering trains or computers, it's about keeping an
obsolete but profitable technology alive. It's about denying space to
the weak and smart, such as the environmentally-friendly bicycle. It's
about keeping the Christian SUVs going --and the rest of us
terrorized...

(just posted somewhere else)

"Should SUV Driving amount to Drunk Driving?"

Are SUVs' tinted windows a sign of shame? Or are they a sign of
misanthropism? I know their wanton disregard for the environment and
their isolation from others causes a lot of problems. I can never
read
what they are up to, for one. And I feel terrorized in my bike or
scooter. I just know I better get out of their way, just as from
drunk
drivers.

It's very fitting what this quote applies to frequent flyers...

"Such wanton disregard for the environment must become as socially
unacceptable as drunk driving."

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.1152757.0.0.php

 

[donquijote1954]

On Dec 10, 6:32 pm, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:

> Well, you seem to miss the fact that the Xtians are the lesser of 2
> evils..for if atheists were running things the killing would be much
> worse.

The lesser of two evils is still an evil.
>
> We should be kissing the asses of the politicians that they are NOT
> atheists.

Why, are the Christian politicians any better than the regular
Christians?

>
> If you like politics with no God go to Russia, China, North Korea or
> Burma.

Russia got rid of communism already. Saudi Arabia is not that free and
democratic either.

>
> Atheists look at this topic with tunnel vision.
>
> Atheists like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion
> would never have been invented.
>
> Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other
> religions. But many of these religious practitioners also do good
> things.
>
> You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and
> clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.

They are for justice, not for handouts that get you some juicy
donations.

>
> Atheist organized?

Not organizing is not a sin. Organizing for profit and manipulation,
and lying toward that end, is.

>
> There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but
> nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations.
>
> Political / religious boundaries are tough to define if one is seeking
> perfection and exactness. If we examine out own lives we can see we
> step outside the boundaries of healthful and peaceful living ourselves
> many times. So just as we do, so do others. Ego is also injected into
> the equation. And generally anyone that enters politics has an
> overblown ego and craves power and attention.
>
> When a politician of a certain religion gets voted in, you get 'the
> whole package' and the religious morals and values are part of that
> package. Generally religion does not become a problem in politics
> unless the religion is imposed against the will of people it is being
> imposed on.
>
> Other times humanity can be most grateful for having such religious
> values being imposed on them.

Sure. I read "religious agendas" (gay rights and abortion) that have
little to do with the real world. What are you doing for "universal
healthcare," or at least for "children healthcare"?

>
> We can see that come to fruition with the many countries that the US
> has been at war with and subsequently lost the war. If we were a
> country that did not apply Christian principles to our captors
> millions more would have been killed.
>

European politics are far less ruled by religious elites and enjoy the
benefits above.

> Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
> cleansing rather than applying charity. Atheist like to claim religion
> killed so many people...well without religion in world the killings
> would have been much worse.

Maybe not. So why be religious if it doesn't make a practical
difference?

>
> I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the
> Secular Humanism Foundation and yes even Sam Harris and others about
> this very topic...none had the courtesy to reply.

Try writing to the Pope. Or any other world leader.

>
> No, I prefer to keep things as they are and keep religions, even with
> all their imperfections. I believe religions do more good than harm. I
> shutter to think what the world would be like if it was composed
> solely of atheists.

The indifference for the fate of the world you plant on people is most
dangerous. People do nothing about the most pressing issues, ie the
environment and peace.

>
> When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to
> say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
> creation of the Christians."
>
> When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking
> at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I
> speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule,
> where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of
> the church.
>
> For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian
> principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to
> live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this
> world.

So those who don't believe in Christianity (Muslims and other
religions as well) are highly immoral.

>
> "The Corporal Works of Mercy"
>
> To feed the hungry
> To give drink to the thirsty
> To clothe the naked
> To harbour the harbourless
> To visit the sick
> To ransom the captive
> To bury the dead
>
> "The Spiritual Works of Mercy"
>
> To instruct the ignorant
> To counsel the doubtful
> To admonish sinners
> To bear wrongs patiently
> To forgive offenses willingly
> To comfort the afflicted
> To pray for the living and the dead
>
> You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
> can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
> would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part.
>
> What about our children, parents and loved ones?
>
> Wouldn't we wish the same for them?
>
> We have no loved ones?
>
> What about our neighbors?
>
> The Christian ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be
> treated. As we give ~ so we receive.

What should do we "give and receive," Christmas presents?

>
> Even if an atheist, as we give peace - we receive inner peace as many
> of the tools I mentioned above do not require belief in God, they only
> requirement is a desire to be at peace and to bring peace to others.

Look at this other ethics by Epicurus...

'Epicurus recognizes the virtue of justice. Like the other virtues,
justice is not considered by Epicureans to be an "absolute good," but
rather an obligatory means for securing happiness. The nature of this
obligation is contractual; justice is grounded upon a promise not to
initiate harm against one's peers, nor to permit such wrongdoing to go
unpunished. Throughout history, it has proved mutually advantageous
for individuals to band together into societies implicitly or
explicitly embracing this kind of pact, because, according to
Epicurus, "the greatest fruit of justice is peace of mind." When we
live under conditions of assured protection, we can derive solace from
the expectation that we will not fall prey to criminal acts, or in the
unlikely event that we do, that there will at least be avenues of
recourse available to us. On the other hand, those who try to cheat
the social covenant by committing crimes are subject to perpetual
anxieties that accompany the prospects of looming retaliation.'

ISN'T IT EVEN BETTER THAN CHRISTIANITY?

>
> This is the Christian doctrine in a nutshell, when we put principles
> before personalities.

Unless it's "your" candidate, ie GW Bush.

>
> As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
> and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
> a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
> patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
> the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
> peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
> possessor."

Sounds good. Do you practice it though? I only know of Gandhi.

>
> This is universal truth that transcends man made religions.
>
> Remember, we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction
> and forget perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form
> is of the soul.
>
> There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual paths, no
> one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said that
> walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge.
>
> But if we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can
> find tools that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or
> believer.

True. And if we all practiced what we preach...

>
> When you get rid of one thing it makes room for another.
>
> The facts are if people are devoid of religion...they generally stink
> as humans.

Contradicts the statement before. You can be full of religiosity and
empty of humanism. The ones that crashed planes into the Towers were.

>
> Until atheism can replace religion as a viable and REAL way to inner
> peace and a reverence of humanity it can never take over the world.

Atheism won't, but HUMANISM will.

>
> Sure there are theists that stink, but lets look at the facts and see
> that the vast majority of people are theists or religious or believe
> in hereafter, so the pot is enormous that we draw from when we pull
> out examples of evildoing theists.
>
> The USA was founded with God in the details. I suggest atheists that
> hate a religious based country like the US move to China or Russia.
> Then you can live your dream right now, in your God free country.

Only the USA and China refuse to be part of the effort to avoid
Climate Change. Interesting, no?

>
> In China, it was a common practice to execute political prisoners with
> one bullet to the head..then they sent the bill for the bullet to the
> family of the executed man.
>
> That is where separation of state and religion can lead. Once religion
> is out, then the only thing left in control is ego.

You can have ego and religion. Just look at how the pharaohs prepared
for the afterlife. As the cost of the riches of the whole nation.

>
> See:
>
> http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=380.0
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa...
>
> http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0
>
> Sure, some 'spiritually based atheist' can far surpasses many theists
> in kindness and virtue many times...so it just depends on what 'type
> of atheist' you are talking about?
>
> But these sort of atheists are very rare to encounter.

I see them all the time. Go to Europe, for a vacation at least.

>
> "People that practice religion are worried about going to hell -
> people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't
> want to go back."
>
> A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do
> not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until
> they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace)
> they seek.
>
> It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
> between them and happiness. ...

"In Gold We Trust"

Please no more long sermons. I hate going to church!

By the way, take a hint from these people: Their gods caused their
demise...

(In a place called Easter Island)

'In his book "A Short History of Progress", Ronald Wright speculates
that for a generation or so, "there was enough old lumber to haul the
great stones and still keep a few canoes seaworthy for deep water".
When the day came the last boat was gone, wars broke out over "ancient
planks and wormeaten bits of jetsam". The people of Rapa Nui exhausted
all possible resources, including eating their own dogs and all
nesting birds when finally there was absolutely nothing left. All that
was left were the stone giants who symbolized the devouring of a whole
island. The stone giants became monuments where the islanders could
keep faith and honour them in hopes of a return. By the end, there
were more than a thousand moai (stone statues), which was one for
every ten islanders (Wright, 2004).'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Island