Guest Raymond Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Jan 19, 7:26�pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: > A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had > no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or history book. And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man himself . G-d that is. SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm Also see: http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's Christianity --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object of the love will be eaten up... Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation. "If I would follow your advice and Jesus could perceive it, he, as a Jewish teacher, surely would not approve of such behavior." Reply to a Roman Catholic student urging him to pray to Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, and convert to Christianity. --- Albert Einstein ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." --- Bertrand Russell Let us prey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roy Jose Lorr Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Raymond wrote: > On Jan 19, 7:26�pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: > >>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. > > > And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist > Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. > > Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no > troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. > Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't > understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or > history book. Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a tutorial in reality. > > And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man > himself . G-d that is. Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. > > SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem > http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm Absolute exploitative insanity. > > Also see: > http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html Arab propaganda. > > Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was > a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long > as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power > without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> > So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never > questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where > it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's > Christianity > --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. > > A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never > tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another > religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of > a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in > another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not > successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might > of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, > the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion > demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, > because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus > intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. > The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the > conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a > child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object > of the love will be eaten up... You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers in the atheist religion. > > Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation. > > "If I would follow your advice and Jesus could perceive it, he, as a > Jewish teacher, surely would not approve of such behavior." > > Reply to a Roman Catholic student urging him to pray to Jesus Christ, > the Virgin Mary, and convert to Christianity. > --- Albert Einstein > > ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not > believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And > if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such > an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." > --- Bertrand Russell Russel the moron. > > Let us prey Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richard Anacker Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Roy Jose Lorr , 01.20.2008: > Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. [...] > Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a > tutorial in reality. [...] > Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. [...] > Absolute exploitative insanity. [...] > Arab propaganda. [...] > Russel the moron. [..] > Amen. So you have nothing to say at all exept of lies and lack of reality. No proof, only empty phrases. Nobody needs that, go and pray a bit, maybe your gawd sends you some contents. greets richie X'Posted to: alt.atheism,alt.politics,alt.philosophy,alt.religion,alt.politics.republicans -- We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. - Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wbyeats@ireland.com Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> wrote: >Raymond wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >> >>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >> >> >> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush > >Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >> Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no >> troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. >> Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't >> understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or >> history book. > >Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a >tutorial in reality. So you're going to rewrite history to rationalize your ignorance? Figures! >> And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man >> himself . G-d that is. > >Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. Anti-God hysteria. The burden of proof is on the believers - not on the non-believers. Now prove to us all that there is a God. Hint - Kant couldn't and you can't. >> SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem >> http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm > >Absolute exploitative insanity. Excuse me - it's in the Bible and isn't everything in the Bible God's honest truth? >> Also see: >> http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html > >Arab propaganda. Yeah, right. And the Holocaust was Jewish propaganda foisted off by the Rothschilds as truth. And the Inquisition was just a pop quiz. And the Crusades a cruise on Holland-America. And pogroms were cheerleader props. PS - you and the Muslims have the exact same God. >> Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was >> a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long >> as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power >> without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> >> So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never >> questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where >> it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's >> Christianity >> --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. > >Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, >no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. Of course - your point is? >> A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never >> tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another >> religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of >> a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in >> another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not >> successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might >> of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, >> the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion >> demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, >> because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus >> intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. >> The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the >> conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a >> child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object >> of the love will be eaten up... > >You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers >in the atheist religion. Atheism is a religion? Beep - wrong. Nobody's out there signing up converts. >> Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation. >> >> "If I would follow your advice and Jesus could perceive it, he, as a >> Jewish teacher, surely would not approve of such behavior." >> >> Reply to a Roman Catholic student urging him to pray to Jesus Christ, >> the Virgin Mary, and convert to Christianity. >> --- Albert Einstein >> >> ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not >> believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And >> if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such >> an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." >> --- Bertrand Russell > >Russel the moron. Yup - Roy's the perfect ignorant Xtian - his mind's made up. Everyone who doesn't believe in his brand of Xtianity is a moron. This includes Russell, Kant, Einstein, Darwin, Galileo, and a cast of thousands. Pretty good company. If there ever was a Jesus, (there's no proof of his existence except for a footnote in an archaic text that refers to a Christos) he'd be much more at home with those folks than with a bunch of narrow-minded bigots. WB Yeats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >wrote: > >>Raymond wrote: >> >>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>> >>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>> >>> >>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >> >>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. > >"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >fighting for the work of the Lord." > >"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >sufferer but as a fighter." > >Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian would even consider. Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" mixed in with his messages of hate. > >>> Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no >>> troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. >>> Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't >>> understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or >>> history book. >> >>Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a >>tutorial in reality. > >So you're going to rewrite history to rationalize your ignorance? >Figures! > >>> And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man >>> himself . G-d that is. >> >>Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. > >Anti-God hysteria. The burden of proof is on the believers - not on >the non-believers. Now prove to us all that there is a God. Hint - >Kant couldn't and you can't. Only if the believers are trying to force their beliefs on you. People are entitled to their beliefs and are not obliged to provide any proof to anyone. After all it IS called "faith". > >>> SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem >>> http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm >> >>Absolute exploitative insanity. > >Excuse me - it's in the Bible and isn't everything in the Bible God's >honest truth? > >>> Also see: >>> http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html >> >>Arab propaganda. > >Yeah, right. And the Holocaust was Jewish propaganda foisted off by >the Rothschilds as truth. And the Inquisition was just a pop quiz. And >the Crusades a cruise on Holland-America. And pogroms were cheerleader >props. PS - you and the Muslims have the exact same God. > >>> Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was >>> a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long >>> as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power >>> without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> >>> So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never >>> questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where >>> it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's >>> Christianity >>> --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. >> >>Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, >>no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. > >Of course - your point is? > >>> A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never >>> tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another >>> religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of >>> a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in >>> another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not >>> successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might >>> of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, >>> the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion >>> demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, >>> because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus >>> intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. >>> The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the >>> conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a >>> child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object >>> of the love will be eaten up... >> >>You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers >>in the atheist religion. > >Atheism is a religion? Beep - wrong. Nobody's out there signing up >converts. Then what do you call all those little arguments presented by "The American Atheists" and others that get very heated in their presentations? What do you call it when atheists post all their little messages to groups like alt.Christianity and others calling the "believers" every name in the book while trying to convince them that there is no God? If it were a minister doing the same thing you'd call it "preaching". When M M O'hare used to have her little cable show where they asked for donations and such they sat and basically talked in the same manner as religious types do on their little discussion programs. Neither side has any upper hand on the other. Both are based essentially on "faith" There is no proof of the existence of God which is not evidence that one does not exists. And there is no proof that there absolutely is not a God out there somewhere simply watching which, also, is not evidence that there is one. Both sides can claim that it is up to the other to prove them wrong. Anecdotally speaking, I've had atheists get just as upset and angry with me for not subscribing to their beliefs as I have 4 Square Pentecostals for not believing in their insanity. The beliefs are different but the attitudes are in the same vein. > >>> Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation. >>> >>> "If I would follow your advice and Jesus could perceive it, he, as a >>> Jewish teacher, surely would not approve of such behavior." >>> >>> Reply to a Roman Catholic student urging him to pray to Jesus Christ, >>> the Virgin Mary, and convert to Christianity. >>> --- Albert Einstein >>> >>> ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not >>> believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And >>> if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such >>> an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." >>> --- Bertrand Russell >> >>Russel the moron. > >Yup - Roy's the perfect ignorant Xtian - his mind's made up. Everyone >who doesn't believe in his brand of Xtianity is a moron. This includes >Russell, Kant, Einstein, Darwin, Galileo, and a cast of thousands. >Pretty good company. If there ever was a Jesus, (there's no proof of >his existence except for a footnote in an archaic text that refers to >a Christos) he'd be much more at home with those folks than with a >bunch of narrow-minded bigots. > >WB Yeats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher A.Lee Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>wrote: >> >>>Raymond wrote: >>> >>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>> >>>> >>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>> >>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >> >>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>fighting for the work of the Lord." >> >>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>sufferer but as a fighter." >> >>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. > >Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >would even consider. Bullshit. Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? Was Martin Luther a Christian? Or Chrysostom? Or any of the other church fathers who treated Jews as Christ-killers and wrote telling their flock to do appalling things to them? If you read Martin Luther you see that Hitler was simply carrying out what he ordered. > Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a >combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without >establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it >out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he >bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" >mixed in with his messages of hate. A standard in-denial canard. His anti-Semitism was part of Western European culture going back 1900 years and fostered by the Church. It lasted longer and was more extreme in Germany and Poland than in many other countries. He wasn't particularly manipulating the German population who were Christian and also immersed in the same culture of anti-Semitism. Whether you like it or not, they accepted his motivation/justification and were equally culpable. I've never understood why, but a lot of in-denial Christians imagine Hitler must have known he was evil and that he lied to get the pro-Semitic Christian population to carry out his orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Roy Jose Lorr wrote: > > ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not > > believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And > > if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such > > an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." > > --- Bertrand Russell > > Russel the moron. I take it then that you disagree with Russell and you believe that God DOES, in fact, have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence? > > Let us prey Preying is for xians, mantis' and other insects. > Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wbyeats@ireland.com Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>wrote: >> >>>Raymond wrote: >>> >>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>> >>>> >>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>> >>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >> >>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>fighting for the work of the Lord." >> >>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>sufferer but as a fighter." >> >>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. > >Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >would even consider. Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a >combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without >establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it >out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he >bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" >mixed in with his messages of hate. Where did anyone say that Hitler started a church or religion? Seems he used religion in much the same way as our current crop of candidates. Bottom line - you have no idea about the man's religious beliefs. >>>> Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no >>>> troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. >>>> Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't >>>> understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or >>>> history book. >>> >>>Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a >>>tutorial in reality. >> >>So you're going to rewrite history to rationalize your ignorance? >>Figures! >> >>>> And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man >>>> himself . G-d that is. >>> >>>Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. >> >>Anti-God hysteria. The burden of proof is on the believers - not on >>the non-believers. Now prove to us all that there is a God. Hint - >>Kant couldn't and you can't. > >Only if the believers are trying to force their beliefs on you. >People are entitled to their beliefs and are not obliged to provide >any proof to anyone. After all it IS called "faith". Of course folks can hold to their own beliefs. But as soon as these same folks take those beliefs and equate them with reality or fact that's where the trouble begins. George Bush and his 'faith-based' initiatives are a prime example. Freedom of religion implicitly gives us freedom FROM religion in the public sector. >>>> SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem >>>> http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm >>> >>>Absolute exploitative insanity. >> >>Excuse me - it's in the Bible and isn't everything in the Bible God's >>honest truth? >> >>>> Also see: >>>> http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html >>> >>>Arab propaganda. >> >>Yeah, right. And the Holocaust was Jewish propaganda foisted off by >>the Rothschilds as truth. And the Inquisition was just a pop quiz. And >>the Crusades a cruise on Holland-America. And pogroms were cheerleader >>props. PS - you and the Muslims have the exact same God. >> >>>> Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was >>>> a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long >>>> as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power >>>> without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> >>>> So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never >>>> questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where >>>> it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's >>>> Christianity >>>> --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. >>> >>>Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, >>>no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. >> >>Of course - your point is? >> >>>> A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never >>>> tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another >>>> religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of >>>> a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in >>>> another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not >>>> successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might >>>> of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, >>>> the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion >>>> demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, >>>> because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus >>>> intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. >>>> The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the >>>> conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a >>>> child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object >>>> of the love will be eaten up... >>> >>>You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers >>>in the atheist religion. >> >>Atheism is a religion? Beep - wrong. Nobody's out there signing up >>converts. > >Then what do you call all those little arguments presented by "The >American Atheists" and others that get very heated in their >presentations? What do you call it when atheists post all their >little messages to groups like alt.Christianity and others calling the >"believers" every name in the book while trying to convince them that >there is no God? Atheism is defined as no belief in a higher being. And yet you seek to equate this with some sort of organized religion of non-believers. Doesn't cut it. >If it were a minister doing the same thing you'd call it "preaching". .....or a used car salesman. >When M M O'hare used to have her little cable show where they asked >for donations and such they sat and basically talked in the same >manner as religious types do on their little discussion programs. >Neither side has any upper hand on the other. Both are based >essentially on "faith" There is no proof of the existence of God >which is not evidence that one does not exists. And there is no proof >that there absolutely is not a God out there somewhere simply watching >which, also, is not evidence that there is one. >Both sides can claim that it is up to the other to prove them wrong. That's not quite right. When positing the existence of anything, the burden of proof is up to those seeking to prove that same existence. Nobody's ever proven God to be anything except a human search to make the unknowable known. There is no physical or factual proof of God's existence. Period. I could say that garlic keeps vampires away because there aren't any vampires around. Your argument doesn't hold up. >Anecdotally speaking, I've had atheists get just as upset and angry >with me for not subscribing to their beliefs as I have 4 Square >Pentecostals for not believing in their insanity. >The beliefs are different but the attitudes are in the same vein. True. >>>> ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not >>>> believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And >>>> if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such >>>> an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." >>>> --- Bertrand Russell >>> >>>Russel the moron. >> >>Yup - Roy's the perfect ignorant Xtian - his mind's made up. Everyone >>who doesn't believe in his brand of Xtianity is a moron. This includes >>Russell, Kant, Einstein, Darwin, Galileo, and a cast of thousands. >>Pretty good company. If there ever was a Jesus, (there's no proof of >>his existence except for a footnote in an archaic text that refers to >>a Christos) he'd be much more at home with those folks than with a >>bunch of narrow-minded bigots. WB Yeats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:19:53 -0500, Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller ><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>Raymond wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>> >>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>> >>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>> >>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>> >>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >> >>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>would even consider. > >Bullshit. > >Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? The bloody past is due to those that twist the religion to suit their own selfish desires. That's what a "false prophet" is and it was written that history would be filled with such types. Why is it that you types want to assign blame to a religion rather than those that commit the crimes? The religion itself does not demand that they act in such ways. They claim to be a Christian and you all point to the religion as somehow making them evil. A religion that DOES NOT say that the Jew should be eliminated, does not say that you should physically force others to worship your god and doesn;t say that you should twist the words in the "good book" around to suit your own desired end. It is the organized church that allows for the misinterpretation and outright lying that justifies all the bullshit that they have perpetrated over the centuries(again this was foretold, the false prophets thing). There are millions of Christians as well as Muslims all over the world that do not subscribe to any notions of "death to unbelievers" or any such nonsense. Most try their best to emulate Christ as best they can and never commit any acts that would be considered to be "un christian". > >Was Martin Luther a Christian? > >Or Chrysostom? > >Or any of the other church fathers who treated Jews as Christ-killers >and wrote telling their flock to do appalling things to them? > >If you read Martin Luther you see that Hitler was simply carrying out >what he ordered. Martin Luther dictates what Christianity is supposed to be does he? Just because someone professes a faith and then spouts of scripture claiming it to justify whatever they want does not make it righteous. The Crusades are a perfect example of that. The Crusades may have been ordered by the church but they were about as far away from what the religion of Christianity teaches as they could be. Nowhere is it written that Jesus wanted anyone to go out and physically force anyone to believe in him. Those that did and try to do today are not following the teachings that they profess to follow. > >> Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a >>combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without >>establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it >>out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he >>bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" >>mixed in with his messages of hate. > >A standard in-denial canard. His anti-Semitism was part of Western >European culture going back 1900 years and fostered by the Church. It >lasted longer and was more extreme in Germany and Poland than in many >other countries. Denial of what exactly? You want to show me chapter and verse in the Bible where he can get that notion? You are tryig to equate the church and it's political agendas with what the Christian faith is supposed to mean. > >He wasn't particularly manipulating the German population who were >Christian and also immersed in the same culture of anti-Semitism. > >Whether you like it or not, they accepted his motivation/justification >and were equally culpable. No one said they weren't. If they truly knew their faith instead of letting someone else tell them what to believe about it then they may have been less willing to follow. > >I've never understood why, but a lot of in-denial Christians imagine >Hitler must have known he was evil and that he lied to get the >pro-Semitic Christian population to carry out his orders. He said what he needed to to get what he wanted. He gave the people something to hate. And he indeed did lie. Or do you also believe that Germany was in the state that it was in pre WW2 because of the "dirty Jews"? Funny, it seems to be really important to you folks to try to show Hitler as being some kind of epitome of Christianity. As another poster stated, he could have been a Christian or a devout atheist and it would not have changed what he did or how he accomplished it. So just what kind of point is it that you are attempting to make? That Christians are bloodthirsty because of their faith? Tell that crap to Josef Stalin or Pol Pot. They managed to slaughter millions without a mention of any religion. In fact they murdered a lot of folks because they believed in a god other than the state. Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ. There are no teachings directing anyone to kill anyone because of their belief or non belief. Those that do any such thing while claiming that it is their faith that directs them to do so are simply wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Free Lunch Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:58:09 -0600, in alt.atheism Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote in <me47p3dvhbskkog1dsg8od5tdfj3q3urrf@4ax.com>: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:19:53 -0500, Christopher A.Lee ><calee@optonline.net> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller >><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>Raymond wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>>> >>>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>>> >>>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>>> >>>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>>> >>>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >>> >>>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>>would even consider. >> >>Bullshit. >> >>Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? > >The bloody past is due to those that twist the religion to suit their >own selfish desires. So, how do I tell if someone is truly Christian? What test can you offer me that is foolproof? Or, does it turn out that there are no Christians at all, that they are almost all twisting that religion to suit their own selfish desires? >That's what a "false prophet" is and it was >written that history would be filled with such types. >Why is it that you types want to assign blame to a religion rather >than those that commit the crimes? The religion itself does not >demand that they act in such ways. They claim to be a Christian and >you all point to the religion as somehow making them evil. A religion >that DOES NOT say that the Jew should be eliminated, does not say that >you should physically force others to worship your god and doesn;t say >that you should twist the words in the "good book" around to suit your >own desired end. >It is the organized church that allows for the misinterpretation and >outright lying that justifies all the bullshit that they have >perpetrated over the centuries(again this was foretold, the false >prophets thing). >There are millions of Christians as well as Muslims all over the world >that do not subscribe to any notions of "death to unbelievers" or any >such nonsense. Most try their best to emulate Christ as best they can >and never commit any acts that would be considered to be "un >christian". Not helpful. >>Was Martin Luther a Christian? >> >>Or Chrysostom? >> >>Or any of the other church fathers who treated Jews as Christ-killers >>and wrote telling their flock to do appalling things to them? >> >>If you read Martin Luther you see that Hitler was simply carrying out >>what he ordered. > >Martin Luther dictates what Christianity is supposed to be does he? >Just because someone professes a faith and then spouts of scripture >claiming it to justify whatever they want does not make it righteous. >The Crusades are a perfect example of that. The Crusades may have >been ordered by the church but they were about as far away from what >the religion of Christianity teaches as they could be. Nowhere is it >written that Jesus wanted anyone to go out and physically force anyone >to believe in him. Those that did and try to do today are not >following the teachings that they profess to follow. Yet Christianity engaged in a huge amount of brute-force savagery in the name of Jesus. Why did Jesus allow that? >>> Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a >>>combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without >>>establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it >>>out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he >>>bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" >>>mixed in with his messages of hate. >> >>A standard in-denial canard. His anti-Semitism was part of Western >>European culture going back 1900 years and fostered by the Church. It >>lasted longer and was more extreme in Germany and Poland than in many >>other countries. > >Denial of what exactly? You want to show me chapter and verse in the >Bible where he can get that notion? >You are tryig to equate the church and it's political agendas with >what the Christian faith is supposed to mean. What is the Christian faith supposed to mean? >>He wasn't particularly manipulating the German population who were >>Christian and also immersed in the same culture of anti-Semitism. >> >>Whether you like it or not, they accepted his motivation/justification >>and were equally culpable. > >No one said they weren't. If they truly knew their faith instead of >letting someone else tell them what to believe about it then they may >have been less willing to follow. So, how many Christians are there, really? Six? >>I've never understood why, but a lot of in-denial Christians imagine >>Hitler must have known he was evil and that he lied to get the >>pro-Semitic Christian population to carry out his orders. > >He said what he needed to to get what he wanted. He gave the people >something to hate. And he indeed did lie. Or do you also believe >that Germany was in the state that it was in pre WW2 because of the >"dirty Jews"? >Funny, it seems to be really important to you folks to try to show >Hitler as being some kind of epitome of Christianity. Germany was a Christian state. It is that the Christians of Germany followed Hitler into this evil that makes us give pause when faced with the claim that somehow Christians behave better than others. >As another >poster stated, he could have been a Christian or a devout atheist and >it would not have changed what he did or how he accomplished it. >So just what kind of point is it that you are attempting to make? >That Christians are bloodthirsty because of their faith? From the historical record, you certainly cannot prove that they are not bloodthirsty. >Tell that crap to Josef Stalin or Pol Pot. They managed to slaughter >millions without a mention of any religion. In fact they murdered a >lot of folks because they believed in a god other than the state. > >Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ. There are >no teachings directing anyone to kill anyone because of their belief >or non belief. >Those that do any such thing while claiming that it is their faith >that directs them to do so are simply wrong. We have no idea what Jesus actually said or did. Certainly the name was common enough, but the stories could have been collected from a number of itinerant teachers of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 There is one simple way to end all arguments. But, there is also one condition. That you have an objective mind. Organized religion in all its forms has one exact and common thread; that is, that one must believe and have faith in ideas and things that have no basis in fact. One who subscribes to religious belief gives up, by virtue of the concept itself, the concept of objective reality. He who believes, believes for the sake of belief. He believes in the existence of something that he has not ever objectively witnessed for himself, or that there is any objective evidence to support. Unfrotunately it is a flaw of the human animal. Even those who proclaim to be objective such as scientists and others cannot fully free themselves of this flaw. They, too, will tend towards subjective thinking at one time or another. But, like everything and everyone there is variation and degree in men; some men are more objective than others, some are physically larger, than others, some are black and some are white, some are more intelligent. Some are better at Math while some are gifted musically. These variations are no different than the variations in how men think. Some are more objective than others. My Grandmother was a extremlely religious woman. She gave money away hand over fist to the Christian church. And, despite the evidence that I put forth to her about the existence of dinosaurs (which the bible and all other religions could never accept if they were to stand behind their true beliefs) she made excuses that somehow Satan had created these random findings in an attempt to fool God's followers. When confronted with the illogic of Adam and Eve she shunned me, her own grandson, for attempting to shed such blaspemy upon God's creation. I also asked her to explain why, if there was only one God, were there so many variations in the interpretation of his word. I argued that if God's own word were so important would it not be logical to ensure that the word be easy to follow, simple to interpret and that all epeople would be able to interpret equally? She had no answer. She shunned me. She would not take up conversation with me because my logic shattered her belief and that comfort was something she was not willing to give up. I say unto all those who aspire to any religion that you subscribe to lies and to beliefs only because you are internally weak and lack the fortitude to open yourself up to the truth of objective thought. You choose religion as a comfort, some absolution to soothe your guilty conscience. You are the filth of this earth. You burned those who were different than you at the stake. You crucified those who didn't aspire to your thought and you tortured those who did not harm to you except to think opposite. You are the scourge of the earth, you are the cowards and the pigs. You are the reason the earth burns. <wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message news:tgr6p35bif2a1fh9kn5ni3vb63oprer56e@4ax.com... > On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> > wrote: > >>Raymond wrote: >> >>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>> >>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin >>>>had >>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>> >>> >>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >> >>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. > > "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of > the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am > fighting for the work of the Lord." > > "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a > fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by > a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned > men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a > sufferer but as a fighter." > > Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a > Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of > God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. > >>> Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no >>> troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. >>> Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't >>> understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or >>> history book. >> >>Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a >>tutorial in reality. > > So you're going to rewrite history to rationalize your ignorance? > Figures! > >>> And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man >>> himself . G-d that is. >> >>Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. > > Anti-God hysteria. The burden of proof is on the believers - not on > the non-believers. Now prove to us all that there is a God. Hint - > Kant couldn't and you can't. > >>> SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem >>> http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm >> >>Absolute exploitative insanity. > > Excuse me - it's in the Bible and isn't everything in the Bible God's > honest truth? > >>> Also see: >>> http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html >> >>Arab propaganda. > > Yeah, right. And the Holocaust was Jewish propaganda foisted off by > the Rothschilds as truth. And the Inquisition was just a pop quiz. And > the Crusades a cruise on Holland-America. And pogroms were cheerleader > props. PS - you and the Muslims have the exact same God. > >>> Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was >>> a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long >>> as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power >>> without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> >>> So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never >>> questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where >>> it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's >>> Christianity >>> --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. >> >>Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, >>no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. > > Of course - your point is? > >>> A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never >>> tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another >>> religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of >>> a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in >>> another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not >>> successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might >>> of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, >>> the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion >>> demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, >>> because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus >>> intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. >>> The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the >>> conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a >>> child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object >>> of the love will be eaten up... >> >>You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers >>in the atheist religion. > > Atheism is a religion? Beep - wrong. Nobody's out there signing up > converts. > >>> Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation. >>> >>> "If I would follow your advice and Jesus could perceive it, he, as a >>> Jewish teacher, surely would not approve of such behavior." >>> >>> Reply to a Roman Catholic student urging him to pray to Jesus Christ, >>> the Virgin Mary, and convert to Christianity. >>> --- Albert Einstein >>> >>> ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not >>> believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And >>> if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such >>> an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." >>> --- Bertrand Russell >> >>Russel the moron. > > Yup - Roy's the perfect ignorant Xtian - his mind's made up. Everyone > who doesn't believe in his brand of Xtianity is a moron. This includes > Russell, Kant, Einstein, Darwin, Galileo, and a cast of thousands. > Pretty good company. If there ever was a Jesus, (there's no proof of > his existence except for a footnote in an archaic text that refers to > a Christos) he'd be much more at home with those folks than with a > bunch of narrow-minded bigots. > > WB Yeats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher A.Lee Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:58:09 -0600, Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:19:53 -0500, Christopher A.Lee ><calee@optonline.net> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller >><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>Raymond wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>>> >>>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>>> >>>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>>> >>>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>>> >>>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >>> >>>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>>would even consider. >> >>Bullshit. >> >>Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? > >The bloody past is due to those that twist the religion to suit their >own selfish desires. That's what a "false prophet" is and it was >written that history would be filled with such types. Bullshit. They simply practices Christianity as they saw it. >Why is it that you types want to assign blame to a religion rather >than those that commit the crimes? We do when the religion is to blame. Do you seriously imagine that MArtin Luther wasn't a Christian but just twisting religion to commit crimes? Or the conquistadors? Or the Confederate slave owners? Or the Protestants who slaughtered Catholics and vice versa during the Reformation? Or the crusaders? Or Pope "Innocent" III who ordered the massacre of the Cathars saying "Kill them all, the Lord will care for his own? For which he was canonised as a protector of the faith? > The religion itself does not >demand that they act in such ways. Sometimes it does. Other times the emotional strength of the ideology makes people do things the religion doesn't say they should. But Christianity in the shape of the writings of numarous Christians like Martin Luther Chrysostom etc is directly responsible for much evil. Like 1900 years of Xhristian anti-Semitism culminating in the holocaust. Do you seriously imagine people hated Jews as Christ-killers for any other reason than they were Christians who believed the Jews were responsible for killing Christ? But thank you for demonstrating just how in denial so many Christians are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DanielSan Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Roy Jose Lorr said the following on 1/20/2008 6:53 AM: > Raymond wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 7:26�pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >> >>> A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist >>> Stalin had >>> no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >> >> >> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush > > Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How > people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. And cue the bagpipes. -- DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 -------------------------------------------------- "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." --Thomas Jefferson, 1802 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:50:50 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller ><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>wrote: >>> >>>>Raymond wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>> >>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>> >>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>> >>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>> >>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >> >>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>would even consider. Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a >>combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without >>establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it >>out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he >>bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" >>mixed in with his messages of hate. > >Where did anyone say that Hitler started a church or religion? Seems >he used religion in much the same way as our current crop of >candidates. Bottom line - you have no idea about the man's religious >beliefs. See the part where I said he made up shit without establishing an official church or religion. And I wasn;'t talking about what he himself believed in on a spiritual level. I was stating how he used the beliefs of those he needed in order to gain their favor. There are all kinds of folks that believe that they are good Christians, for example, but they don;t know their asses from holes in the ground. Just look at the idiots that, even though it says nothing of the sort in the Bible, believe they should hate the Jews because they are the ones who crucified Jesus. So old Adolpoh may very well have been a "Christian" in name but as far as what he preached(like the words above) he was just plain wrong. > >>>>> Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no >>>>> troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. >>>>> Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't >>>>> understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or >>>>> history book. >>>> >>>>Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a >>>>tutorial in reality. >>> >>>So you're going to rewrite history to rationalize your ignorance? >>>Figures! >>> >>>>> And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man >>>>> himself . G-d that is. >>>> >>>>Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. >>> >>>Anti-God hysteria. The burden of proof is on the believers - not on >>>the non-believers. Now prove to us all that there is a God. Hint - >>>Kant couldn't and you can't. >> >>Only if the believers are trying to force their beliefs on you. >>People are entitled to their beliefs and are not obliged to provide >>any proof to anyone. After all it IS called "faith". > >Of course folks can hold to their own beliefs. But as soon as these >same folks take those beliefs and equate them with reality or fact >that's where the trouble begins. George Bush and his 'faith-based' >initiatives are a prime example. Freedom of religion implicitly gives >us freedom FROM religion in the public sector. NO, all it says in the constitution is the state will not impede your freedom to practice the religion of your choosing and the state will not establish any official church, such as "The Church Of England". That's ALL it says. > >>>>> SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem >>>>> http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm >>>> >>>>Absolute exploitative insanity. >>> >>>Excuse me - it's in the Bible and isn't everything in the Bible God's >>>honest truth? >>> >>>>> Also see: >>>>> http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html >>>> >>>>Arab propaganda. >>> >>>Yeah, right. And the Holocaust was Jewish propaganda foisted off by >>>the Rothschilds as truth. And the Inquisition was just a pop quiz. And >>>the Crusades a cruise on Holland-America. And pogroms were cheerleader >>>props. PS - you and the Muslims have the exact same God. >>> >>>>> Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was >>>>> a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long >>>>> as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power >>>>> without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> >>>>> So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never >>>>> questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where >>>>> it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's >>>>> Christianity >>>>> --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. >>>> >>>>Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, >>>>no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. >>> >>>Of course - your point is? >>> >>>>> A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never >>>>> tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another >>>>> religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of >>>>> a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in >>>>> another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not >>>>> successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might >>>>> of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, >>>>> the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion >>>>> demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, >>>>> because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus >>>>> intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. >>>>> The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the >>>>> conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a >>>>> child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object >>>>> of the love will be eaten up... >>>> >>>>You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers >>>>in the atheist religion. >>> >>>Atheism is a religion? Beep - wrong. Nobody's out there signing up >>>converts. >> >>Then what do you call all those little arguments presented by "The >>American Atheists" and others that get very heated in their >>presentations? What do you call it when atheists post all their >>little messages to groups like alt.Christianity and others calling the >>"believers" every name in the book while trying to convince them that >>there is no God? > >Atheism is defined as no belief in a higher being. And yet you seek to >equate this with some sort of organized religion of non-believers. >Doesn't cut it. Then why pursue arguments about it as though it is. You folks keep screaming that there positively is no spiritual life or god but you can't prove it anymore than you can prove that there definitely isn't any life on any other planet in the universe. So your notions are based on your own "faith" whether you want to concede it or not. But I will come to a middle ground and say that a lot of atheists BEHAVE as though they are preaching a religious faith. I've told a couple of the more adamant posters here over the years that they are "religious" in their non religious beliefs. > >>If it were a minister doing the same thing you'd call it "preaching". > >....or a used car salesman. Well, I have met a few preachers in my time that were indeed used car salesmen before they got their "calling". In fact this discussion could almost end right here because in a nutshell, Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Khomeini et al could be described as consummate salesmen. They marketed their ideas and got enough sales under their belt to "buy the company" metaphorically speaking. > >>When M M O'hare used to have her little cable show where they asked >>for donations and such they sat and basically talked in the same >>manner as religious types do on their little discussion programs. >>Neither side has any upper hand on the other. Both are based >>essentially on "faith" There is no proof of the existence of God >>which is not evidence that one does not exists. And there is no proof >>that there absolutely is not a God out there somewhere simply watching >>which, also, is not evidence that there is one. >>Both sides can claim that it is up to the other to prove them wrong. > >That's not quite right. When positing the existence of anything, the >burden of proof is up to those seeking to prove that same existence. >Nobody's ever proven God to be anything except a human search to make >the unknowable known. There is no physical or factual proof of God's >existence. Period. I could say that garlic keeps vampires away because >there aren't any vampires around. Your argument doesn't hold up. See the statement I made about life existing on other planets. There are some things that by the nature of their definition that are simply too far out there to either prove or disprove. And just an FYI, I don;t care whether you believe in Jesus or the Sun god or nothing at all. I just think it's foolish to blame everything and anything that any fool has done while claiming to be of a particular belief to be rooted in the religion itself rather than the fucked up mentality of those that wish to use it as an excuse. That's all anyone that has ever declared a crusade or jihad has ever done. They weren't following their faith. They were using it and manipulating it to suit their own desires. A simple modern day example of that would be something like: It says in the book of Deuteronomy I believe that it is a sin in the eyes of God for a man to lay with a man, a woman with a woman etc. But it doesn't say that MAN should be the one to punish them for that sin. (As my grandma always said "what you do is between you and your god) But look how many morons are out there in today's world preaching that it is a sin and WE have to deal with it and fight it and in the past abused and killed(legally) those that were seen as being guilty of those sins. Christians are supposed to pray for them that they may have a change in their heart and come to know god etc etc. but there are a lot of morons that preach different. The problems with Christianity today are not due to what the Bible actually teaches but are due to what zealots and egomaniacs twist those teachings into. Just like what the moolahs do in the middle east in regards to Islam. Their greatest accomplishment has been convincing their followers that a martyr is someone who will die in the name of their religion by suicide and murder rather than someone that is willing to die rather than give up their faith. A subtle nuance in words but it makes the difference between being devout and being a murdering lunatic. Personally I don't go to church. I see no point in someone interpreting an interpretation of a translation of a translation of a translation as being the true word of anything. I don't want to think that we are simply machines that wear out until we're done and that's it but I also can't bring myself to imagine any gold lined streets with a grey haired bearded god sitting on a thrown where we will all serve and worship them for all eternity either. Wouldn't that be a bitch? Work your entire life doing what you think you're supposed to believing you'll be rewarded with eternal spiritually life only to be hit with an eternal 9 to 5 job. That's heaven? LOL ' > >>Anecdotally speaking, I've had atheists get just as upset and angry >>with me for not subscribing to their beliefs as I have 4 Square >>Pentecostals for not believing in their insanity. >>The beliefs are different but the attitudes are in the same vein. > >True. > >>>>> ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not >>>>> believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And >>>>> if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such >>>>> an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." >>>>> --- Bertrand Russell >>>> >>>>Russel the moron. >>> >>>Yup - Roy's the perfect ignorant Xtian - his mind's made up. Everyone >>>who doesn't believe in his brand of Xtianity is a moron. This includes >>>Russell, Kant, Einstein, Darwin, Galileo, and a cast of thousands. >>>Pretty good company. If there ever was a Jesus, (there's no proof of >>>his existence except for a footnote in an archaic text that refers to >>>a Christos) he'd be much more at home with those folks than with a >>>bunch of narrow-minded bigots. > >WB Yeats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher A.Lee Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:50:42 -0600, Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >>Where did anyone say that Hitler started a church or religion? Seems >>he used religion in much the same way as our current crop of >>candidates. Bottom line - you have no idea about the man's religious >>beliefs. > > See the part where I said he made up shit without establishing an >official church or religion. And I wasn;'t talking about what he >himself believed in on a spiritual level. I was stating how he used >the beliefs of those he needed in order to gain their favor. And how does that make him atheist? Why was he never excommunicated? Why did he remain in good faith a member of the Catholic church? He was a leader who was Christian, whose followers were also, and who accepted his religious motivation and justification. Were the Crusaders Christians? Martin Luther and the other Church fathers both Catholic and Protestant whose writings fostered 1900 years of Christian anti-Semitism that became enshrined in Western Europan Christian culture. Pope Innocent III who ordered the massacre of the Cathars at Beziers and said "Kill them all, God will care for his own"? The Protestants and Catholics who slaughtered each other duringthe Reformation? The thirty years war? >There are all kinds of folks that believe that they are good >Christians, for example, but they don;t know their asses from holes in >the ground. Just like you. If you were you weren't be in denial about ?Christians who did Bad Things. > Just look at the idiots that, even though it says nothing >of the sort in the Bible, believe they should hate the Jews because >they are the ones who crucified Jesus. Just look at the idiots who don't think about the effect of the emotional strength of somebody's philosophy. Just look at he idiots who imagine there is no Biblical justification for anti-Semitism. That the Bible doesn't blame the Jews for killing Christ, and it doesn't talk about the sins of the fathers being passed down through the generations. > So old Adolpoh may very well >have been a "Christian" in name but as far as what he preached(like >the words above) he was just plain wrong. Just like all the other Christians who imagine theirs is the only kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:09:56 -0600, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:58:09 -0600, in alt.atheism >Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote in ><me47p3dvhbskkog1dsg8od5tdfj3q3urrf@4ax.com>: >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:19:53 -0500, Christopher A.Lee >><calee@optonline.net> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller >>><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Raymond wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>>>> >>>>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>>>> >>>>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>>>> >>>>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>>>> >>>>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >>>> >>>>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>>>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>>>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>>>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>>>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>>>would even consider. >>> >>>Bullshit. >>> >>>Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? >> >>The bloody past is due to those that twist the religion to suit their >>own selfish desires. > >So, how do I tell if someone is truly Christian? What test can you offer >me that is foolproof? Or, does it turn out that there are no Christians >at all, that they are almost all twisting that religion to suit their >own selfish desires? Those that actually try to do right by there faith are those that you DON'T read about in the paper for doing insane apparent anti Christian acts. There is no foolproof test. And the Bible doesn't say that one must be a perfect anything. It says that man should strive to be as much like Jesus as they can for they cannot be perfect. All I can say is there are those that simply misinterpret the good book and there are those that intentionally manipulate it for reasons other than faith. > >>That's what a "false prophet" is and it was >>written that history would be filled with such types. >>Why is it that you types want to assign blame to a religion rather >>than those that commit the crimes? The religion itself does not >>demand that they act in such ways. They claim to be a Christian and >>you all point to the religion as somehow making them evil. A religion >>that DOES NOT say that the Jew should be eliminated, does not say that >>you should physically force others to worship your god and doesn;t say >>that you should twist the words in the "good book" around to suit your >>own desired end. >>It is the organized church that allows for the misinterpretation and >>outright lying that justifies all the bullshit that they have >>perpetrated over the centuries(again this was foretold, the false >>prophets thing). >>There are millions of Christians as well as Muslims all over the world >>that do not subscribe to any notions of "death to unbelievers" or any >>such nonsense. Most try their best to emulate Christ as best they can >>and never commit any acts that would be considered to be "un >>christian". > >Not helpful. > >>>Was Martin Luther a Christian? >>> >>>Or Chrysostom? >>> >>>Or any of the other church fathers who treated Jews as Christ-killers >>>and wrote telling their flock to do appalling things to them? >>> >>>If you read Martin Luther you see that Hitler was simply carrying out >>>what he ordered. >> >>Martin Luther dictates what Christianity is supposed to be does he? >>Just because someone professes a faith and then spouts of scripture >>claiming it to justify whatever they want does not make it righteous. >>The Crusades are a perfect example of that. The Crusades may have >>been ordered by the church but they were about as far away from what >>the religion of Christianity teaches as they could be. Nowhere is it >>written that Jesus wanted anyone to go out and physically force anyone >>to believe in him. Those that did and try to do today are not >>following the teachings that they profess to follow. > >Yet Christianity engaged in a huge amount of brute-force savagery in the >name of Jesus. Why did Jesus allow that? > >>>> Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a >>>>combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without >>>>establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it >>>>out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he >>>>bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" >>>>mixed in with his messages of hate. >>> >>>A standard in-denial canard. His anti-Semitism was part of Western >>>European culture going back 1900 years and fostered by the Church. It >>>lasted longer and was more extreme in Germany and Poland than in many >>>other countries. >> >>Denial of what exactly? You want to show me chapter and verse in the >>Bible where he can get that notion? >>You are tryig to equate the church and it's political agendas with >>what the Christian faith is supposed to mean. > >What is the Christian faith supposed to mean? Show us where anything that Hitler did was referenced in the Bible as a teaching of Christ? You folks keep coming at this like you're supposed to be some kind of experts but you apparently don;t know your subject enough to actually debate it worth a damn. Read the new freaking testament for crying out loud if you want to know. Just a few aspects are that you don't go around trying to dominate and force anyone into your faith for starters. You don;t commit genocide. You don;t go out and murder and claim it to be the will of God. Most of it is pretty common sense. > >>>He wasn't particularly manipulating the German population who were >>>Christian and also immersed in the same culture of anti-Semitism. >>> >>>Whether you like it or not, they accepted his motivation/justification >>>and were equally culpable. >> >>No one said they weren't. If they truly knew their faith instead of >>letting someone else tell them what to believe about it then they may >>have been less willing to follow. > >So, how many Christians are there, really? Six? > >>>I've never understood why, but a lot of in-denial Christians imagine >>>Hitler must have known he was evil and that he lied to get the >>>pro-Semitic Christian population to carry out his orders. >> >>He said what he needed to to get what he wanted. He gave the people >>something to hate. And he indeed did lie. Or do you also believe >>that Germany was in the state that it was in pre WW2 because of the >>"dirty Jews"? >>Funny, it seems to be really important to you folks to try to show >>Hitler as being some kind of epitome of Christianity. > >Germany was a Christian state. It is that the Christians of Germany >followed Hitler into this evil that makes us give pause when faced with >the claim that somehow Christians behave better than others. That statement is almost as foolish as ya'lls claims that Christian equates to bloodthirsty murderer across the board. The Klan claims to be Christian and most of their members make that claim as well. And they let their leaders convince them that they should hate Jews because of the crucifixion. They convince their followers that black folks are the descendants of cain even though, according to the Bible, those descendants were wiped from the earth. Are Christians somehow supposed to be immune to propaganda? No more than any atheist I would imagine. As stated further up, there are plenty of really nasty individuals that have murdered millions throughout history that believed in no god at all. They had to have their followers as well or they would never have obtained their power. > >>As another >>poster stated, he could have been a Christian or a devout atheist and >>it would not have changed what he did or how he accomplished it. >>So just what kind of point is it that you are attempting to make? >>That Christians are bloodthirsty because of their faith? > >From the historical record, you certainly cannot prove that they are not >bloodthirsty. From a historical record you can't prove that anyone wasn't bloodthirsty that was able to survive very long. However, historically speaking, Caeser and a couple of others did a fair job of almost eliminating the early Christians because of their non violent attitudes. But killing and murder and forced submission is not what the Christian faith is supposed to teach. As I said show me in the New Testament where Jesus taught anything like what was perpetrated by the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisitions or Adolph Hitler would have been good in the eyes of God. Show where it is written that those atrocities are prescribed by Jesus. > >>Tell that crap to Josef Stalin or Pol Pot. They managed to slaughter >>millions without a mention of any religion. In fact they murdered a >>lot of folks because they believed in a god other than the state. >> >>Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ. There are >>no teachings directing anyone to kill anyone because of their belief >>or non belief. >>Those that do any such thing while claiming that it is their faith >>that directs them to do so are simply wrong. > >We have no idea what Jesus actually said or did. Certainly the name was >common enough, but the stories could have been collected from a number >of itinerant teachers of the time. So show us anything that shows Jesus to be the cold blooded murdering asshole that you all apparently want to claim he was. After all if Christianity is the cause of all those historical atrocities rather than those that commited them then you should have no trouble showing us where that methodology is taught in the Bible. If you can't then it simply shows that all those evil acts were commited by people that simply used Christianity in name for pure popularity without following the doctrine. After several years of folks posting shit like Christianity is a murdering religion, the only thing anyone ever comes up with is how some nut spouting off his religion does something horrible and how it supposedly represents the religion itself. Not one time in over ten years has one of you ever come up with anything that can be read from the New Testament that promotes any of those crimes. So why is it that you all keep wanting to make the claim that the religion itself as is preached by Jesus in the New Testament is what makes people do such things? If you want to claim that there are a lot of "professed" Christians that are total assholes that don't have a clear understanding of their own faith then I can go with that. But saying that what is written in the scripture is the cause of all the bullshit in the world just doesn't have any weight. There just aren't any teachings of Christ in the Bible that condone or promote anything of the sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Karl Johanson Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 "Roy Jose Lorr" <Kenthz@comcast.net> wrote > Raymond wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >> >>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist >>>Stalin had >>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >> >> >> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush > > Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How > people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. Hitler and Bush are clearly Christian. But the point is moot regardless. According to Christianity, God wanted Hitler, Bush and Stalin in power. Further, according to Christianity, god wanted people to obey them. Romans 13: "Submission to the Authorities 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. " Whether or not any given evil leader is Christian isn't the point. The point is that Christianity requires that people obey the orders of evil leaders. Just say "no". Karl Johanson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0500, Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:58:09 -0600, Starkiller ><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:19:53 -0500, Christopher A.Lee >><calee@optonline.net> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller >>><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Raymond wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>>>> >>>>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>>>> >>>>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>>>> >>>>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>>>> >>>>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >>>> >>>>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>>>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>>>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>>>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>>>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>>>would even consider. >>> >>>Bullshit. >>> >>>Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? >> >>The bloody past is due to those that twist the religion to suit their >>own selfish desires. That's what a "false prophet" is and it was >>written that history would be filled with such types. > >Bullshit. They simply practices Christianity as they saw it. > > >>Why is it that you types want to assign blame to a religion rather >>than those that commit the crimes? > >We do when the religion is to blame. > >Do you seriously imagine that MArtin Luther wasn't a Christian but >just twisting religion to commit crimes? > >Or the conquistadors? > >Or the Confederate slave owners? > >Or the Protestants who slaughtered Catholics and vice versa during the >Reformation? > >Or the crusaders? > >Or Pope "Innocent" III who ordered the massacre of the Cathars saying >"Kill them all, the Lord will care for his own? For which he was >canonised as a protector of the faith? > >> The religion itself does not >>demand that they act in such ways. > >Sometimes it does. Other times the emotional strength of the ideology >makes people do things the religion doesn't say they should. > >But Christianity in the shape of the writings of numarous Christians >like Martin Luther Chrysostom etc is directly responsible for much >evil. Like 1900 years of Xhristian anti-Semitism culminating in the >holocaust. > >Do you seriously imagine people hated Jews as Christ-killers for any >other reason than they were Christians who believed the Jews were >responsible for killing Christ? > >But thank you for demonstrating just how in denial so many Christians >are. I'll tell you like another previous poster. Get a bible and point nout where Jesus teaches anything that you've listed in your little diatribe to be the way to live. You list off all these folks that you say were Christians but they are just individuals. If you want to claim that they were acting upon their faith and what they were taught in as far as what the Bible teaches in regards to Jesus then you should have no problem showing where their ideology is taken from the bible. If you can't then the religion of Christianity itself is not at fault but rather those that falsely claim to be following that faith are the true culprits. So show us where Jesus taught any of the crap you listed or you got no argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher A.Lee Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:38:03 -0600, Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0500, Christopher A.Lee ><calee@optonline.net> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:58:09 -0600, Starkiller >><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:19:53 -0500, Christopher A.Lee >>><calee@optonline.net> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller >>>><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>>>>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Raymond wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>>>>> >>>>>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>>>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>>>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>>>>> >>>>>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>>>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>>>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>>>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>>>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>>>>> >>>>>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>>>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>>>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >>>>> >>>>>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>>>>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>>>>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>>>>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>>>>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>>>>would even consider. >>>> >>>>Bullshit. >>>> >>>>Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? >>> >>>The bloody past is due to those that twist the religion to suit their >>>own selfish desires. That's what a "false prophet" is and it was >>>written that history would be filled with such types. >> >>Bullshit. They simply practices Christianity as they saw it. >> >> >>>Why is it that you types want to assign blame to a religion rather >>>than those that commit the crimes? >> >>We do when the religion is to blame. >> >>Do you seriously imagine that MArtin Luther wasn't a Christian but >>just twisting religion to commit crimes? >> >>Or the conquistadors? >> >>Or the Confederate slave owners? >> >>Or the Protestants who slaughtered Catholics and vice versa during the >>Reformation? >> >>Or the crusaders? >> >>Or Pope "Innocent" III who ordered the massacre of the Cathars saying >>"Kill them all, the Lord will care for his own? For which he was >>canonised as a protector of the faith? >> >>> The religion itself does not >>>demand that they act in such ways. >> >>Sometimes it does. Other times the emotional strength of the ideology >>makes people do things the religion doesn't say they should. >> >>But Christianity in the shape of the writings of numarous Christians >>like Martin Luther, Chrysostom etc is directly responsible for much >>evil. Like 1900 years of Xhristian anti-Semitism culminating in the >>holocaust. >> >>Do you seriously imagine people hated Jews as Christ-killers for any >>other reason than they were Christians who believed the Jews were >>responsible for killing Christ? >> >>But thank you for demonstrating just how in denial so many Christians >>are. So on your planet none of those were Christian? Even the founder of Protestantism and the early Catholic church fathers? Why are you in denial about your religion's bloody history? >I'll tell you like another previous poster. Get a bible and point >nout where Jesus teaches anything that you've listed in your little >diatribe to be the way to live. What "little diatribe", in-denial liar? > You list off all these folks that you >say were Christians but they are just individuals. That was Christianity, liar. > If you want to >claim that they were acting upon their faith and what they were taught >in as far as what the Bible teaches in regards to Jesus then you >should have no problem showing where their ideology is taken from the >bible. More dishonesty. Why do you imagine that Christians in earlier generations had to be your kind of Christian? Perhaps YOU would like to point out where Jesus tells you to lie, where Jesus tells today's Christians to be bigoted and discriminate against people who don't believe exactly as they do, etc? > If you can't then the religion of Christianity itself is not >at fault but rather those that falsely claim to be following that >faith are the true culprits. Did Martin Luther and Chrysostom "falsely claim to be Christian" on your planet? Or the crusaders, the conquistadors, the Confederate slave owners, the Catholics and Protestants who slaughtered each other during the Reformation? Or Pope Innocent III who ordered "kill them all, God will take care of his own" and then got canonised for exterminating a heretical split-off. Please tell me you're joking. >So show us where Jesus taught any of the crap you listed or you got no >argument. It doesn't matter what you imagine Jesus "taught". What matters is that they did it because of their religion. Sometimes directly because of the combination of the Bible blaming the Jews for the crucifixion and the sins of the fathers being passed down. Sometimes because of the emotional strength of the belief. Can't you read for comprehension or are you just in denial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:09:21 -0500, Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:50:42 -0600, Starkiller ><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >>>Where did anyone say that Hitler started a church or religion? Seems >>>he used religion in much the same way as our current crop of >>>candidates. Bottom line - you have no idea about the man's religious >>>beliefs. >> >> See the part where I said he made up shit without establishing an >>official church or religion. And I wasn;'t talking about what he >>himself believed in on a spiritual level. I was stating how he used >>the beliefs of those he needed in order to gain their favor. > >And how does that make him atheist? > >Why was he never excommunicated? > >Why did he remain in good faith a member of the Catholic church? > >He was a leader who was Christian, whose followers were also, and who >accepted his religious motivation and justification. > >Were the Crusaders Christians? Martin Luther and the other Church >fathers both Catholic and Protestant whose writings fostered 1900 >years of Christian anti-Semitism that became enshrined in Western >Europan Christian culture. > >Pope Innocent III who ordered the massacre of the Cathars at Beziers >and said "Kill them all, God will care for his own"? > >The Protestants and Catholics who slaughtered each other duringthe >Reformation? > >The thirty years war? > >>There are all kinds of folks that believe that they are good >>Christians, for example, but they don;t know their asses from holes in >>the ground. > >Just like you. If you were you weren't be in denial about ?Christians >who did Bad Things. Have you not read the posts? I guess you have since you snipped out where I listeed all kinds of crap perpetrated by "professed Christians" Guess it didn;t suit your silly little argumen did it TROLL. > >> Just look at the idiots that, even though it says nothing >>of the sort in the Bible, believe they should hate the Jews because >>they are the ones who crucified Jesus. > >Just look at the idiots who don't think about the effect of the >emotional strength of somebody's philosophy. > >Just look at he idiots who imagine there is no Biblical justification >for anti-Semitism. That the Bible doesn't blame the Jews for killing >Christ, and it doesn't talk about the sins of the fathers being passed >down through the generations. Yet you want to say Christianity is what makes those idiots believe in what is not in the bible. You're arguing in circles. > >> So old Adolpoh may very well >>have been a "Christian" in name but as far as what he preached(like >>the words above) he was just plain wrong. > >Just like all the other Christians who imagine theirs is the only >kind. You have yet to show me where Hitlers acts are condoned or promoted in the Bible. That's where I get the notion. Where is it that you get the idea that Hitlers Genocide and World War would be condoned by Jesus. You keep falling on your face because you have yet to show where Christianity teaches what it is you say it does. Either give some references citing such or just STFU and quit wasting everyones time. You keep citing so called "Christians" that have commited horrible acts but you just simply can;t come up with anything showing that the religion as taught by Jesus incites any of it. All you got to go on is just a mere label. Stalin and Pol Pot were both Atheists. So I guess I should start saying that since they were atheists and they had a lot of non god believing followers that atheists must be bloodthristy murdering totalitarians right? Cause that's where you're coming from Einstein and you got as much proof about your little theories about Christianity calling for blood as I do regarding atheism. Which, as a matter of fact, shows the flaw in the header. Cause I don't detest nor do I fear any atheist. I damn sure don't lump them all into one bag because of the actions of a few assholes. that apparently is your thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:35:34 GMT, "Karl Johanson" <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote: >"Roy Jose Lorr" <Kenthz@comcast.net> wrote >> Raymond wrote: >> >>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>> >>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist >>>>Stalin had >>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>> >>> >>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >> >> Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >> people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. > >Hitler and Bush are clearly Christian. But the point is moot regardless. >According to Christianity, God wanted Hitler, Bush and Stalin in power. >Further, according to Christianity, god wanted people to obey them. > >Romans 13: "Submission to the Authorities 1Everyone must submit himself >to >the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which >God >has established. The authorities that exist have been established by >God. >2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against >what >God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on >themselves. >3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do >wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do >what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do >you >good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for >nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on >the >wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not >only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. " > >Whether or not any given evil leader is Christian isn't the point. The >point is that Christianity requires that people obey the orders of evil >leaders. > >Just say "no". > >Karl Johanson > And how many times have you all cited "Give unto Caeser that which is due Caeser" when you talk about conservatives being against taxes? And it still doesn't say that Christians should go out and commit genocide and inquisitions. Your cites above basically just say that you should obey the law of the land. Are you saying that it shouldn;t be that way? Are you saying that Christians should consider themselves to be above the law of the land? Are you saying that if I consider the president to not be "of God" that I should go out and just ignore all of the laws of the nation? Got news for ya brainiac. You got to abide by the law wherever you are or you will be punished for it when caught. And it won't be God doing the punishing at that point. Hell of a bunch of extrapolation you had to come up with from simply obeying the law to "doing the evil deeds of evil leaders". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starkiller Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:54:36 -0500, Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:38:03 -0600, Starkiller ><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0500, Christopher A.Lee >><calee@optonline.net> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:58:09 -0600, Starkiller >>><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:19:53 -0500, Christopher A.Lee >>>><calee@optonline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller >>>>><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>>>>>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Raymond wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>>>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>>>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>>>>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>>>>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>>>>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>>>>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>>>>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>>>>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>>>>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>>>>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >>>>>> >>>>>>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>>>>>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>>>>>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>>>>>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>>>>>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>>>>>would even consider. >>>>> >>>>>Bullshit. >>>>> >>>>>Why are so many Christians in denial about Christianity's bloody past? >>>> >>>>The bloody past is due to those that twist the religion to suit their >>>>own selfish desires. That's what a "false prophet" is and it was >>>>written that history would be filled with such types. >>> >>>Bullshit. They simply practices Christianity as they saw it. >>> >>> >>>>Why is it that you types want to assign blame to a religion rather >>>>than those that commit the crimes? >>> >>>We do when the religion is to blame. >>> >>>Do you seriously imagine that MArtin Luther wasn't a Christian but >>>just twisting religion to commit crimes? >>> >>>Or the conquistadors? >>> >>>Or the Confederate slave owners? >>> >>>Or the Protestants who slaughtered Catholics and vice versa during the >>>Reformation? >>> >>>Or the crusaders? >>> >>>Or Pope "Innocent" III who ordered the massacre of the Cathars saying >>>"Kill them all, the Lord will care for his own? For which he was >>>canonised as a protector of the faith? >>> >>>> The religion itself does not >>>>demand that they act in such ways. >>> >>>Sometimes it does. Other times the emotional strength of the ideology >>>makes people do things the religion doesn't say they should. >>> >>>But Christianity in the shape of the writings of numarous Christians >>>like Martin Luther, Chrysostom etc is directly responsible for much >>>evil. Like 1900 years of Xhristian anti-Semitism culminating in the >>>holocaust. >>> >>>Do you seriously imagine people hated Jews as Christ-killers for any >>>other reason than they were Christians who believed the Jews were >>>responsible for killing Christ? >>> >>>But thank you for demonstrating just how in denial so many Christians >>>are. > >So on your planet none of those were Christian? > >Even the founder of Protestantism and the early Catholic church >fathers? > >Why are you in denial about your religion's bloody history? > >>I'll tell you like another previous poster. Get a bible and point >>nout where Jesus teaches anything that you've listed in your little >>diatribe to be the way to live. > >What "little diatribe", in-denial liar? > >> You list off all these folks that you >>say were Christians but they are just individuals. > >That was Christianity, liar. > >> If you want to >>claim that they were acting upon their faith and what they were taught >>in as far as what the Bible teaches in regards to Jesus then you >>should have no problem showing where their ideology is taken from the >>bible. > >More dishonesty. Why do you imagine that Christians in earlier >generations had to be your kind of Christian? > >Perhaps YOU would like to point out where Jesus tells you to lie, >where Jesus tells today's Christians to be bigoted and discriminate >against people who don't believe exactly as they do, etc? > >> If you can't then the religion of Christianity itself is not >>at fault but rather those that falsely claim to be following that >>faith are the true culprits. > >Did Martin Luther and Chrysostom "falsely claim to be Christian" on >your planet? Or the crusaders, the conquistadors, the Confederate >slave owners, the Catholics and Protestants who slaughtered each other >during the Reformation? Or Pope Innocent III who ordered "kill them >all, God will take care of his own" and then got canonised for >exterminating a heretical split-off. > >Please tell me you're joking. > >>So show us where Jesus taught any of the crap you listed or you got no >>argument. > >It doesn't matter what you imagine Jesus "taught". What matters is >that they did it because of their religion. > >Sometimes directly because of the combination of the Bible blaming >the Jews for the crucifixion and the sins of the fathers being passed >down. > >Sometimes because of the emotional strength of the belief. > >Can't you read for comprehension or are you just in denial? You apparently are the one that has a comprehension problem. This all started out with you all arguing that Christianity is a religion that promotes all kinds of evil shit. I keep asking you to show me where Jesus taugh any of it and you just keep rattling off names of people that you believe in your pointy little head to be perfect followers of those teachings. You keep trying to run in circles now claiming stupidly that it doesn't matter what Jesus taught it's about what some other asshole taught. Well if it ain't what is written in the good book then they ARE NOT TEACHING the preachings of Jesus. The Bible speaks of False Prophets as I stated but like in all of your other posts, you want to ignore what is actually written and go by what individuals claim and do. Apparently any fool can do anything and just say "hey I'm a Christian" and that gives you the greenlight to say that it must be because of their religion? You argue that the religion itself is what creates all of the violence and evil in the world as opposed to the actions of human beings but you can't show one iota of proof that the religion itself as written intends any such ends. I suppose you also believe that Buddhism is responsible for the Japanese Kamikazis performing their suicide dives into ships at Pearl Harbor. Most all of them were Buddhists so I guess that means that Buddhism is a bloodthirsty crazy philosophy yes? Your logic. I guess(as I told another poster) that it's OK for me to say that atheism is a major cause of death and destruction in the word because of the history that includes Pol Pot and Stalin who believed as you do that there is no God, right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wbyeats@ireland.com Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:50:42 -0600, Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:50:50 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:37:53 -0600, Starkiller >><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:17:48 -0800, wbyeats@ireland.com wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:53:51 -0800, Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>Raymond wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 19, 7:26?pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist Stalin had >>>>>>>no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >>>>>> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush >>>>> >>>>>Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How >>>>>people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. >>>> >>>>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of >>>>the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am >>>>fighting for the work of the Lord." >>>> >>>>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a >>>>fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by >>>>a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned >>>>men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a >>>>sufferer but as a fighter." >>>> >>>>Guess who said the above? There is as much evidence Hitler was a >>>>Christian as that he was not. He does seem to believe in some type of >>>>God so to profess that Hitler was an atheist is very dubious at best. >>> >>>Hitler used the belief system held by most Germans to manipulate the >>>masses. A lot of folks that didn't believe in shit with their heart >>>had no problem using the beliefs of others in manipulative ways. >>>Hitler could have professed being a "Christian" all he wanted but to >>>commit genocide against "The Chosen" is something no true Christian >>>would even consider. Hitler pretty much made up his own religion, a >>>combination of Catholicism and Paganism, but he did so without >>>establishing any official church or religion. He kind of pushed it >>>out there over time. The quote above is an example of how he >>>bastardized Christianity by using the words "God" and "Christian" >>>mixed in with his messages of hate. >> >>Where did anyone say that Hitler started a church or religion? Seems >>he used religion in much the same way as our current crop of >>candidates. Bottom line - you have no idea about the man's religious >>beliefs. > > See the part where I said he made up shit without establishing an >official church or religion. And I wasn;'t talking about what he >himself believed in on a spiritual level. I was stating how he used >the beliefs of those he needed in order to gain their favor. >There are all kinds of folks that believe that they are good >Christians, for example, but they don;t know their asses from holes in >the ground. Just look at the idiots that, even though it says nothing >of the sort in the Bible, believe they should hate the Jews because >they are the ones who crucified Jesus. So old Adolpoh may very well >have been a "Christian" in name but as far as what he preached(like >the words above) he was just plain wrong. Thanks - you've hit the nail on the head. Religion has been utilized to rationalize evil acts time and time again. That's the result of religion moving from a private belief to a public "ism". You've got all the current candidates trying to one-up the others on how serious is their belief in God and their religion. It's sickening. >>>>>> Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no >>>>>> troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. >>>>>> Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't >>>>>> understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or >>>>>> history book. >>>>> >>>>>Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a >>>>>tutorial in reality. >>>> >>>>So you're going to rewrite history to rationalize your ignorance? >>>>Figures! >>>> >>>>>> And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man >>>>>> himself . G-d that is. >>>>> >>>>>Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. >>>> >>>>Anti-God hysteria. The burden of proof is on the believers - not on >>>>the non-believers. Now prove to us all that there is a God. Hint - >>>>Kant couldn't and you can't. >>> >>>Only if the believers are trying to force their beliefs on you. >>>People are entitled to their beliefs and are not obliged to provide >>>any proof to anyone. After all it IS called "faith". >> >>Of course folks can hold to their own beliefs. But as soon as these >>same folks take those beliefs and equate them with reality or fact >>that's where the trouble begins. George Bush and his 'faith-based' >>initiatives are a prime example. Freedom of religion implicitly gives >>us freedom FROM religion in the public sector. > >NO, all it says in the constitution is the state will not impede your >freedom to practice the religion of your choosing and the state will >not establish any official church, such as "The Church Of England". >That's ALL it says. The Constitution also includes its defining (or redefining depending upon one's frame of reference) by the Supremes. This includes keeping religion and religious icons out of the public domain. The GOD that's referenced in public documents and buildings is not the God of religion(s) but a generic entity - read Jefferson. >>>>>> SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem >>>>>> http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm >>>>> >>>>>Absolute exploitative insanity. >>>> >>>>Excuse me - it's in the Bible and isn't everything in the Bible God's >>>>honest truth? >>>> >>>>>> Also see: >>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html >>>>> >>>>>Arab propaganda. >>>> >>>>Yeah, right. And the Holocaust was Jewish propaganda foisted off by >>>>the Rothschilds as truth. And the Inquisition was just a pop quiz. And >>>>the Crusades a cruise on Holland-America. And pogroms were cheerleader >>>>props. PS - you and the Muslims have the exact same God. >>>> >>>>>> Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was >>>>>> a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long >>>>>> as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power >>>>>> without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> >>>>>> So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never >>>>>> questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where >>>>>> it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's >>>>>> Christianity >>>>>> --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. >>>>> >>>>>Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, >>>>>no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. >>>> >>>>Of course - your point is? >>>> >>>>>> A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never >>>>>> tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another >>>>>> religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of >>>>>> a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in >>>>>> another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not >>>>>> successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might >>>>>> of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, >>>>>> the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion >>>>>> demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, >>>>>> because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus >>>>>> intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. >>>>>> The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the >>>>>> conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a >>>>>> child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object >>>>>> of the love will be eaten up... >>>>> >>>>>You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers >>>>>in the atheist religion. >>>> >>>>Atheism is a religion? Beep - wrong. Nobody's out there signing up >>>>converts. >>> >>>Then what do you call all those little arguments presented by "The >>>American Atheists" and others that get very heated in their >>>presentations? What do you call it when atheists post all their >>>little messages to groups like alt.Christianity and others calling the >>>"believers" every name in the book while trying to convince them that >>>there is no God? >> >>Atheism is defined as no belief in a higher being. And yet you seek to >>equate this with some sort of organized religion of non-believers. >>Doesn't cut it. > >Then why pursue arguments about it as though it is. You folks keep >screaming that there positively is no spiritual life or god but you >can't prove it anymore than you can prove that there definitely isn't >any life on any other planet in the universe. So your notions are >based on your own "faith" whether you want to concede it or not. >But I will come to a middle ground and say that a lot of atheists >BEHAVE as though they are preaching a religious faith. >I've told a couple of the more adamant posters here over the years >that they are "religious" in their non religious beliefs. The odds are that there is life outside our own solar system. The odds that there is a God out there controlling things or even cresting things are slim and none. Like I said before - folks can believe anything they wish - just keep it out of our politics and out of my face. >>>If it were a minister doing the same thing you'd call it "preaching". >> >>....or a used car salesman. > >Well, I have met a few preachers in my time that were indeed used car >salesmen before they got their "calling". > >In fact this discussion could almost end right here because in a >nutshell, Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Khomeini et al could be described >as consummate salesmen. They marketed their ideas and got enough >sales under their belt to "buy the company" metaphorically speaking. Yup. >>>When M M O'hare used to have her little cable show where they asked >>>for donations and such they sat and basically talked in the same >>>manner as religious types do on their little discussion programs. >>>Neither side has any upper hand on the other. Both are based >>>essentially on "faith" There is no proof of the existence of God >>>which is not evidence that one does not exists. And there is no proof >>>that there absolutely is not a God out there somewhere simply watching >>>which, also, is not evidence that there is one. >>>Both sides can claim that it is up to the other to prove them wrong. >> >>That's not quite right. When positing the existence of anything, the >>burden of proof is up to those seeking to prove that same existence. >>Nobody's ever proven God to be anything except a human search to make >>the unknowable known. There is no physical or factual proof of God's >>existence. Period. I could say that garlic keeps vampires away because >>there aren't any vampires around. Your argument doesn't hold up. > >See the statement I made about life existing on other planets. It probably does exist but this has nothing to do with our discussion. You're equating the corporeal with the 'divine'. It's faulty logic and a poor analogy. >There are some things that by the nature of their definition that are >simply too far out there to either prove or disprove. Again - the burden of proof is on the believers when they make their beliefs fact. Beliefs and faith are many times wonderful things - but don't equate the two with fact. >And just an FYI, I don;t care whether you believe in Jesus or the Sun >god or nothing at all. I just think it's foolish to blame everything >and anything that any fool has done while claiming to be of a >particular belief to be rooted in the religion itself rather than the >fucked up mentality of those that wish to use it as an excuse. >That's all anyone that has ever declared a crusade or jihad has ever >done. They weren't following their faith. They were using it and >manipulating it to suit their own desires. Nobody's equated every evil to religious fervor - just many of the massacres in history. For folks to kill and/or die in the name of religion is just plain ludicrous. For folks to study and train to be Christian soldiers (or suicide bombers, or whatever) and to spread their mesage in any way they can flies in the face of Christian teaching. See "Jesus Camp" for a prime example along with an excellent film about the genesis of a suicide bomber (the title escapes me at present). On top of that it's the religious faithful who seek to control a woman's right to choose - and to choose what they wish to do with their bodies. It's not up to some zealot or government agency or anyone else - it's a personal decision. Keep God out of it - she's neutral. (vbg) >A simple modern day example of that would be something like: It says >in the book of Deuteronomy I believe that it is a sin in the eyes of >God for a man to lay with a man, a woman with a woman etc. But it >doesn't say that MAN should be the one to punish them for that sin. >(As my grandma always said "what you do is between you and your god) >But look how many morons are out there in today's world preaching that >it is a sin and WE have to deal with it and fight it and in the past >abused and killed(legally) those that were seen as being guilty of >those sins. >Christians are supposed to pray for them that they may have a change >in their heart and come to know god etc etc. but there are a lot of >morons that preach different. >The problems with Christianity today are not due to what the Bible >actually teaches but are due to what zealots and egomaniacs twist >those teachings into. >Just like what the moolahs do in the middle east in regards to Islam. >Their greatest accomplishment has been convincing their followers that >a martyr is someone who will die in the name of their religion by >suicide and murder rather than someone that is willing to die rather >than give up their faith. A subtle nuance in words but it makes the >difference between being devout and being a murdering lunatic. > >Personally I don't go to church. I see no point in someone >interpreting an interpretation of a translation of a translation of a >translation as being the true word of anything. All very well said. >I don't want to think that we are simply machines that wear out until >we're done and that's it but I also can't bring myself to imagine any >gold lined streets with a grey haired bearded god sitting on a throne >where we will all serve and worship them for all eternity either. >Wouldn't that be a bitch? Work your entire life doing what you think >you're supposed to believing you'll be rewarded with eternal >spiritually life only to be hit with an eternal 9 to 5 job. That's >heaven? LOL Nope - it's the Twilight Zone. WB Yeats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christopher A.Lee Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:55:27 -0600, Starkiller <NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:09:21 -0500, Christopher A.Lee ><calee@optonline.net> wrote: > >>On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:50:42 -0600, Starkiller >><NoSpam.SKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>>>Where did anyone say that Hitler started a church or religion? Seems >>>>he used religion in much the same way as our current crop of >>>>candidates. Bottom line - you have no idea about the man's religious >>>>beliefs. >>> >>> See the part where I said he made up shit without establishing an >>>official church or religion. And I wasn;'t talking about what he >>>himself believed in on a spiritual level. I was stating how he used >>>the beliefs of those he needed in order to gain their favor. >> >>And how does that make him atheist? >> >>Why was he never excommunicated? >> >>Why did he remain in good faith a member of the Catholic church? >> >>He was a leader who was Christian, whose followers were also, and who >>accepted his religious motivation and justification. >> >>Were the Crusaders Christians? Martin Luther and the other Church >>fathers both Catholic and Protestant whose writings fostered 1900 >>years of Christian anti-Semitism that became enshrined in Western >>Europan Christian culture. >> >>Pope Innocent III who ordered the massacre of the Cathars at Beziers >>and said "Kill them all, God will care for his own"? >> >>The Protestants and Catholics who slaughtered each other duringthe >>Reformation? >> >>The thirty years war? Couldn't answer this? Or are you just in denial about your own religion's bloody past? >>>There are all kinds of folks that believe that they are good >>>Christians, for example, but they don;t know their asses from holes in >>>the ground. >> >>Just like you. If you were you weren't be in denial about ?Christians >>who did Bad Things. > >Have you not read the posts? I guess you have since you snipped out >where I listeed all kinds of crap perpetrated by "professed >Christians" Guess it didn;t suit your silly little argumen did it >TROLL. So were those I listed Christians or just "professed Christians"? And what "silly little argument", LIAR? Why are so many many Christians so dishionest? Do you seriously imagine that lying about my being atroll, somehow absolvesyou from answeing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rev. Karl E. Taylor Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Roy Jose Lorr wrote: > Raymond wrote: > >> On Jan 19, 7:26�pm, "Mr4701" <NoExi...@Earth.net> wrote: >> >>> A Godless person is just as bad as an overzealous person. Atheist >>> Stalin had >>> no more of a beef killing people than Islamofascist Osama Bin Laden. >> >> >> And Catholic Hitler had no more of a beef killing people than Atheist >> Stalin or Christian Episcopalean.....George Bush > > Hitler and stalin were and Bush is an atheist, self worshipers. How > people define themselves to the world is hardly ever the reality. > Hitler, Catholic. Stalin, Russian Orthodox. Bush family, US Christian. Now, you were saying? >> >> Most political and religious leaders throughout history have had no >> troulble killing millions of people----especially religious leaders. >> Religion has everything to do with terrorism Anyone who doesn't >> understand that has never been exposed to a decent history course or >> history book. > > Anyone who takes history courses and books at face value needs a > tutorial in reality. > >> >> And we must not exclude the Jewish leaders---including the main Man >> himself . G-d that is. > > Hmm... the obligatory anti God hysteria. > Hmmm, the obligatory projection, a RoyBoy special >> >> SEE Atrocities in the Bible. Shalom aleichem >> http://thetruth.hypermart.net/bible/atrocities.htm > > Absolute exploitative insanity. > Projection. >> >> Also see: >> http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html > > Arab propaganda. > Ignornace. >> >> Catholics today all try to repudiate Adolf Hitler and deny that he was >> a fellow Roman Catholic. But this was definitely not the case so long >> as he was in power, In fact, Hitler could not have come to power >> without the assistance of the Vatican and the German Catholic Church> >> So long as Adolf Hitler was in power, his Roman Catholic Church never >> questioned his Catholicism - at least not in public - which is where >> it mattered politically.--- just as no one questions GW Bush's >> Christianity >> --- at least not in public - which is where it matters politically. > > Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the people, > no matter their religious or anti religious affiliations. > Same with Bush. What's your point? Other then the fact that you like to overlook the obvious. The people are swayed by their CHURCH! How do you think the empty hat got to 1600 twice? >> >> A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never >> tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another >> religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of >> a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in >> another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not >> successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might >> of the majority is behind it. In the case of a Christian clergyman, >> the tragic-comical is found in this: that the Christian religion >> demands love from the faithful, even love for the enemy. This demand, >> because it is indeed superhuman, he is unable to fulfill. Thus >> intolerance and hatred ring through the oily words of the clergyman. >> The love, which on the Christian side is the basis for the >> conciliatory attempt towards Judaism is the same as the love of a >> child for a cake. That means that it contains the hope that the object >> of the love will be eaten up... > > You have just described the mental and physical behaviors of believers > in the atheist religion. > For the last time dickless. Atheists don't have a religion. An atheist is someone that is not a practitioner of any form of theism. Theism by and large are what twats call religion. >> >> Letter to Rabbi Solomon Goldman of Chicago's Anshe Emet Congregation. >> >> "If I would follow your advice and Jesus could perceive it, he, as a >> Jewish teacher, surely would not approve of such behavior." >> >> Reply to a Roman Catholic student urging him to pray to Jesus Christ, >> the Virgin Mary, and convert to Christianity. >> --- Albert Einstein >> >> ". I observe that a very large portion of the human race does not >> believe in God and suffers no visible punishment in consequence. And >> if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such >> an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence." >> --- Bertrand Russell > > Russel the moron. > You misspelled Roy Jose Lorr. >> >> Let us prey > > Amen. > Bite me. - -- There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers on their knees, with their eyes closed. ____________________________________________________________________ Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ A.A #1143 http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/ Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director ____________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHk8g0f+wl0F6+jvgRAoaUAJ9RW0CTAnkKtZMVFuREEpkRkA0uqgCeJs0v sCXQ1m1AhNkyxVF04yuQ9lE= =Wbsd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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