Response to Typical Sectarian's False Accusations Against Mormonism

>> The Bible and Book of Mormon are two testimonies of Jesus Christ.

>

> Yep, that is the claim. And an unsubstantiated claim. And is an outright

> lie.

>

> The truth is there are FOUR gospels or "testimonies" of Jesus Christ in

> the Canon we call the Bible. There are also a number of letters written

> by true apostles of Jesus Christ who were taught by Jesus Christ. We

> also have the OT which in toto is a testimony of the anticipated Messiah.

> Right there you have two witnesses - the OT prophets and the NT apostles.

> You have the OT prophets speaking of the Christ to come, and you have the

> apostles testifying of the Lord revealed. There are your two testimonies

> that you feel you need - sixty-six books all bundled up in one easily

> managed library.

>

> So you have to return to the well of deconstruction and fraud to say that

> Joseph Smith provides a SECOND testimony of Jesus Christ.

I forgot to add this to my previous reply of the same post. Jesus said "...

in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

(Matt. 18:16) Like I have thoroughly explained, Judah and Ephraim are two

witnesses, two nations that are a witness of Jesus Christ.

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know

ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am

God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the

same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall

run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

2 Nephi:29

>> Who told you that the Bible is the only word of God?

>

> By asking that question in that manner, you either know and intend to

> deceive, or you have no clue whatsoever to what is indeed "The Bible".

That was a rhetorical question. I know God continues to give revelation

today as He

did 2000 years ago. Only sectarians like you insist He doesn't. The

scriptures say He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law,

happy is he. (Prov. 29:18)

You will not repent due to your false traditions and darkness of mind so you

will not acknowledge the restoral of the Priesthood authority lost when the

Apostles of the first Church died and was lost for about 1800 years before

Peter, James, and John returned and anointed Joseph Smith the Priesthood

authority and that God once again speaks to us now in the present.

> Your purpose is either evil or ignorant. Which is it?

>

> Unlike you, I don't make a habit of just throwing out claims without at

> least a newsgroup acceptable level of evidence.

>

> For instance, your question treats The Bible as if some dude just sat down

> and wrote the whole thing - sort of how you treat Joseph Smith's writings

> or how some Muslim would treat Mohammed's works. Sure there are a number

> of ancillary writings by your church leaders and by Muslim imams to expand

> and comment on the foundational document.

>

> But the Bible wasn't written in one day, but was written by several

> prophets over a period exceeding fifteen hundred years in several

> different languages in different cultures and times to different people

> and dispensations using many different literary techniques. The apostles

> wrote letters that were distributed among the churches. If you want to

> hear a detailed description of how the Bible came about, tell a Roman

> Catholic that you are protestant and you will be schooled in the

> canoninzation of the Bible. Let's put it this way, the compilation of

> today's Bible was a massive undertaking, and that is why we have a

> trustworthy Bible today, because of the thousands upon thousands of

> man-hours of work by true men of God to reject the junk and keep what is

> believed to be Divinly inspired books and letters.

>

> Basically, the Joseph Smith letters don't even pass the most basic peer

> review. Under any scholarly practice Joseph Smith's letters would be

> marked as junk and quickly discarded.

I bear my testimony that Joseph Smith is indeed a true Prophet of God, as

much of a Prophet as any in the Bible. The same Spirit that testified to me

of Jesus Christ strives with me daily. I know it does not with you but you

only spout your opinions based on your false traditions and own noodle.

A true Prophet will teach doctrines and give revelations that may be new but

will not contradict past prophets.

"I hope you will search the Scriptures to see whether these things are not

also consistent with those things which the ancient Prophets and Apostles

have written." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 29)

Another difference between a true servant of God and a false priest or

minister is by the fact that a true servant gets revelations. A false

minister will say that God cannot give revelation any more. All the prophets

in the Old Testament received "Thus saith the Lord" revelations". Joseph

Smith received over 100 revelations that were published. Also a true Prophet

will require that his followers receive a witness of his calling and

teachings by the Spirit not to just blindly follow him. Paul said no man

knows the things of God but by the Spirit of God.

"Search the scriptures--search the revelations which we publish, and ask

your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the

truth

unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His glory nothing doubting,

He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for

yourselves and not for another. You will not then be dependent on man for

the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for speculation. No; for

when men receive their instruction from Him that made them, they know how He

will save them." (TPJS, pp. 11-12)

I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of

Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere

heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth

of it unto you.... (Moroni 10:4)

16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile

against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day

shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the

earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall

perish.

17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their

wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of

Hosts.

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth,

must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must

needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his

everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of

men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that

they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well--and

thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to

hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell;

and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none--and thus he

whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from

whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the

devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne

of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go

into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which

is endless torment.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth

the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the

truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with

gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he

shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we

need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men

line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and

blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my

counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will

give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be

taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or

shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given

by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding

I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me;

nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will

repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long,

saith the Lord God of Hosts.

(2 Ne 28:11-32)

Joseph Smith was born and raised in an area

> that was the center of the Great Revival so, due to lack of MTV and other

> distractions, a little bit of hype goes a long way.

"Every generation has flattered itself that it is a little better than the

one that preceded it. Every generation has prided itself in its knowledge

and great advancement in the arts and sciences and its superiority over

preceding generations; yet the power of the adversary and his hatred of

righteousness and truth are as great to-day as they ever were since the

creation of the earth." Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, Pg.228 - Pg.229,

George Q. Cannon, May 6, 1866

Furthermore, he was

> also raised in a time and place where everyone knew of buried treasure -

> think "Oak Island". It was a long lasting fad to believe that pirates

> buried treasure along the coast or on islands off the coast. Since money

> was hard to come by, this was the equivalent of today's lottery - finding

> buried treasure. What makes Joe's story absurd is that we are led to

> believe that these great golden plates were buried in little Palmyra.

> Has anyone bothered to ask why of all places?

What? Gold plates in a stone box, you say?

http://www.artbulla.com/zion/batcreek.html

"This gold plate of Darius proclaims his majesty and the vast extent of his

Persian empire. It was buried in a neatly made stone box in 516-515 B.C. at

Persepolis. This gold plate and its duplicate silver tablet were discovered

in 1933. Similarly, the Nephites of the sixth century B.C. kept two sets of

records on gold plates, one of which was buried in a stone box in 421 A.D."

Courtesy Paul R. Cheesman.

> It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if a young impressionable lad

> grows up in an area where preachers are revered and where anyone can win

> the lottery by just finding that one winning treasure map, that he would

> fabricate an entire religion that would enscounce himself in a position of

> spiritual leadership based on him discovering hidden treasure. Today's

> equivalent would be to win the lottery and then buy a political office.

>

> So of course he found buried GOLD plates, and of course it was alleged to

> have been written a "long, long time ago", and in a completely unknown

> tongue that required translation by imaginary magic fairy glasses. This

> is the plot line for a Raider of the Lost Ark series. This kind of story

> would titilate the rubes and the hicks who didn't get their Amway position

> in the last Great Revival tent carnival.

What you call "imaginary magic fairy glasses" are called seer stones or

a.k.a Urim and Thummim. This device was the means by which Joseph Smith

translated the ancient writings on the gold plates. Here from Joseph Smith's

own words from "Joseph Smith History" is his account of the meeting with the

resurrected Prophet from the Book of Mormon (you do believe in the

resurrection, don't you?) Moroni who told him the location of the gold

plates.

(Moroni appears to Joseph Smith-Joseph's name is to be known for good and

evil among all nations-Moroni tells him of the Book of Mormon and of the

coming judgments of the Lord, and quotes many scriptures-The hiding place of

the gold plates is revealed-Moroni continues to instruct the Prophet.)

(Verses 27-54.)

27 I continued to pursue my common vocations in life until the

twenty-first of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-three, all

the time suffering severe persecution at the hands of all classes of men,

both religious and irreligious, because I continued to affirm that I had

seen a vision.

28 During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the

vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three-having been forbidden

to join any of the religious sects of the day, and being of very tender

years, and persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have

treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored

in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me-I was left to all

kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently

fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the

foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers

temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no

one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to

commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and

sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that

character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had

been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my

youth, and is acquainted with my native cheery temperament.

29 In consequence of these things, I often felt condemned for my weakness

and imperfections; when, on the evening of the above-mentioned twenty-first

of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself

to prayer and supplication to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins

and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my

state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a

divine manifestation, as I previously had one.

30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light

appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter

than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside,

standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness

beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly

thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands

were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his

feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck

were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this

robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.

32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was

glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The

room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his

person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left

me.

33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent

from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a

work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among

all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil

spoken of among all people.

34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an

account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from

whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel

was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones,

fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and

Thummim-deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these

stones were what constituted "seers" in ancient or former times; and that

God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

Now how would a 17 year old unschooled simple farm boy know what a "Urim and

Thummim" is ? How could he have had fabricated that ? The Bible talks about

the Urim and Thummim used by Seers in ancient times.

30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the

Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the

LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his

heart before the LORD continually.

Exodus 28:30

8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the

Urim and the Thummim.

Leviticus 8:8

And if Joseph Smith did imagine up Moroni, why would he reference Moroni

quoting the following verses from the OT books of Malachi, Isaiah, and Joel,

huh?

36 After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of

the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and

he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with

a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting

the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus:

37 For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the

proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble; for they that

come shall burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them

neither root nor branch.

38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto

you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of

the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the

hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of

the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth

would be utterly wasted at his coming.

40 In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying

that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts,

twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New

Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet

come when "they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among

the people," but soon would come.

41 He also quoted the second chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse

to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to

be. And he further stated that the fulness of the Gentiles was soon to come

in. He quoted many other passages of scripture, and offered many

explanations which cannot be mentioned here.

42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had

spoken-for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled-I

should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim

and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I

did I should be destroyed. While he was conversing with me about the plates,

the vision was opened to my mind that I could see the place where the plates

were deposited, and that so clearly and distinctly that I knew the place

again when I visited it.

43 After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather

immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it

continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around

him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven,

and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it

had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

44 I lay musing on the singularity of the scene, and marveling greatly at

what had been told to me by this extraordinary messenger; when, in the midst

of my meditation, I suddenly discovered that my room was again beginning to

get lighted, and in an instant, as it were, the same heavenly messenger was

again by my bedside.

45 He commenced, and again related the very same things which he had done

at his first visit, without the least variation; which having done, he

informed me of great judgments which were coming upon the earth, with great

desolations by famine, sword, and pestilence; and that these grievous

judgments would come on the earth in this generation. Having related these

things, he again ascended as he had done before.

46 By this time, so deep were the impressions made on my mind, that sleep

had fled from my eyes, and I lay overwhelmed in astonishment at what I had

both seen and heard. But what was my surprise when again I beheld the same

messenger at my bedside, and heard him rehearse or repeat over again to me

the same things as before; and added a caution to me, telling me that Satan

would try to tempt me (in consequence of the indigent circumstances of my

father's family), to get the plates for the purpose of getting rich. This he

forbade me, saying that I must have no other object in view in getting the

plates but to glorify God, and must not be influenced by any other motive

than that of building his kingdom; otherwise I could not get them.

47 After this third visit, he again ascended into heaven as before, and I

was again left to ponder on the strangeness of what I had just experienced;

when almost immediately after the heavenly messenger had ascended from me

for the third time, the cock crowed, and I found that day was approaching,

so that our interviews must have occupied the whole of that night.

48 I shortly after arose from my bed, and, as usual, went to the necessary

labors of the day; but, in attempting to work as at other times, I found my

strength so exhausted as to render me entirely unable. My father, who was

laboring along with me, discovered something to be wrong with me, and told

me to go home. I started with the intention of going to the house; but, in

attempting to cross the fence out of the field where we were, my strength

entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was

quite unconscious of anything.

49 The first thing that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me,

calling me by name. I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over

my head, surrounded by light as before. He then again related unto me all

that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my

father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.

50 I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole

matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do

as commanded by the messenger. I left the field, and went to the place where

the messenger had told me the plates were deposited; and owing to the

distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place

the instant that I arrived there.

51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York,

stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the

neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a

stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This

stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner

towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the

ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under

the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in,

and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the

breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was

formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of

the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay

the plates and the other things with them.

53 I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger,

and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet

arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time; but he told me

that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and

that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until

the time should come for obtaining the plates.

54 Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year,

and at each time I found the same messenger there, and received instruction

and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the

Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be

conducted in the last days.

It's just the little details in the account of Smith's vision of Moroni that

help add credibility to it. It's strange that Smith said Moroni visited him

3 consecutive times that night giving the exact same message and then the

next day while working with his father on their farm, he had the same vision

of Moroni. Funny how, he said Moroni instructed him not to take out the gold

plates until exactly 4 years later but he was to visit Moroni at the

location of the plates annually up till the time of the 4th year.

(Joseph Smith marries Emma Hale-He receives the gold plates from Moroni and

translates some of the characters-Martin Harris shows characters and

translation to Professor Anthon, who says: "I cannot read a sealed

book." )(Verses 55-65.)

55 As my father's worldly circumstances were very limited, we were under

the necessity of laboring with our hands, hiring out by day's work and

otherwise, as we could get opportunity. Sometimes we were at home, and

sometimes abroad, and by continuous labor were enabled to get a comfortable

maintenance.

56 In the year 1823 my father's family met with a great affliction by the

death of my eldest brother, Alvin. In the month of October, 1825, I hired

with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango

county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having

been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of

Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order,

if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took

me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I

continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking,

and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it.

Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger.

57 During the time that I was thus employed, I was put to board with a Mr.

Isaac Hale, of that place; it was there I first saw my wife (his daughter),

Emma Hale. On the 18th of January, 1827, we were married, while I was yet

employed in the service of Mr. Stoal.

58 Owing to my continuing to assert that I had seen a vision, persecution

still followed me, and my wife's father's family were very much opposed to

our being married. I was, therefore, under the necessity of taking her

elsewhere; so we went and were married at the house of Squire Tarbill, in

South Bainbridge, Chenango county, New York. Immediately after my marriage,

I left Mr. Stoal's, and went to my father's, and farmed with him that

season.

59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and

Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one

thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of

another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly

messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be

responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through

any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my

endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them,

they should be protected.

60 I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to

keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had

done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was

it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get

them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for

that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and

multitudes were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible.

But by the wisdom of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had

accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to

arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and

he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one

thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight.

61 The excitement, however, still continued, and rumor with her thousand

tongues was all the time employed in circulating falsehoods about my

father's

family, and about myself. If I were to relate a thousandth part of them, it

would fill up volumes. The persecution, however, became so intolerable that

I was under the necessity of leaving Manchester, and going with my wife to

Susquehanna county, in the State of Pennsylvania. While preparing to

start-being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was

no probability that we would ever be otherwise-in the midst of our

afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris,

who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr.

Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New

York, and a farmer of respectability.

62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination

in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying

the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and

by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did

between the time I arrived at the house of my wife's father, in the month of

December, and the February following.

63 Sometime in this month of February, the aforementioned Mr. Martin

Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off the

plates, and started with them to the city of New York. For what took place

relative to him and the characters, I refer to his own account of the

circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as

follows:

64 "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had

been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon,

a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated

that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen

translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet

translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and

Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate,

certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that

the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I

took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the

house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found

out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered

that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.

65 "He then said to me, 'Let me see that certificate.' I accordingly took

it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to

pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels,

and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I

informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden

to bring them. He replied, 'I cannot read a sealed book.' I left him and

went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said

respecting both the characters and the translation."

So from reading the account of Martin Harris' showing the translated

characters and the translation from the gold plates to Professor Charles

Anthon who verified the the characters and the translation of the characters

are authentic with a certificate (although due to his sectarian tradition

bigotry like your kind have he tore up the certificate) and second

verification by Dr. Mitchell we know on top of the other analysis of Joseph

Smith's experience with Moroni that there is nothing to find fault with

Smith's experience (except in the eyes of anti-Christ wannabe servants of

Christ sectarians.)

But this wasn't the end of Joseph Smith's early run of visions as a young

Prophet. He was anointed the Aaronic Priesthood along with Oliver Cowdery

and they baptized each other for the remission of sins and not too much time

later they received the fulness of the Gospel by both receiving the

Melchizedek Priesthood which was necessary to restore the Church of Jesus

Christ as existed almost 1800 years before the apostasy of the Church. The

Martin Luther Protestant Reformation was a prepratory stage for the return

of the Priesthood.

(Oliver Cowdery serves as scribe in translating the Book of Mormon-Joseph

and Oliver receive the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist-They are

baptized, ordained, and receive the spirit of prophecy. )(Verses 66-75.)

66 On the 5th day of April, 1829, Oliver Cowdery came to my house, until

which time I had never seen him. He stated to me that having been teaching

school in the neighborhood where my father resided, and my father being one

of those who sent to the school, he went to board for a season at his house,

and while there the family related to him the circumstances of my having

received the plates, and accordingly he had come to make inquiries of me.

67 Two days after the arrival of Mr. Cowdery (being the 7th of April) I

commenced to translate the Book of Mormon, and he began to write for me.

68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month

(May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of

the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found

mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed,

praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a

cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:

69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the

Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and

of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission

of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons

of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands

for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us

hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions

that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize

me.

71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and

afterwards he baptized me-after which I laid my hands upon his head and

ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on

me and ordained me to the same Priesthood-for so we were commanded.

72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this

Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called

John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction

of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of

Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on

us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he

(Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that

we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.

73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been

baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly

Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell

upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly

come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had

the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise

of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this

generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and

rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid

open to our understandings, and the btrue meaning and intention of their

more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could

attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we

were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the

Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution

which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.

75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, from time to time, and this,

too, by professors of religion. And their intentions of mobbing us were only

counteracted by the influence of my wife's father's family (under Divine

providence), who had become very friendly to me, and who were opposed to

mobs, and were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of

translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us

protection from all unlawful proceedings, as far as in them lay.

Something to think about it that is already surely in your minds. Who else

talks about so strenuously for baptism for remission of sins than the

Mormons and the need for the Melchizedek Priesthood? No one. Could Joseph

Smith just made all this up? Having considered all the facts only a

disingenuous person would continue to blabber false accusations against the

Prophet Joseph Smith.

I mean, since when do angels

> tell someone that they aren't the "right person" and then say the "right

> person" is someone who will be dead when its their time to act? This

> should be a major clue that the "angels" are not of God. Furthermore,

> what's with the necromancers? Didn't King Saul lose favor with God for

> consulting a necromancer? This whole story about the plates receives the

> loud guffaws that it deserves, and sends all but the most gullible running

> off.

Why is believing in angels in the past from the Bible so much more

believable ? How about the account of Jacob wrestling an angel all night

long and being renamed by the angel Israel? Or the angel who stopped

Balaam's donkey from moving as they were moving forward? Or the burning bush

speaking to Moses? Or the angel holding up a sword standing in air in front

of David? Or an angel appearing in front of Samson's parents telling them

that the mother would conceive of a child who would deliver Israel from

bondage from the Philistines? Or an angel appearing in front of Zacharias,

John the Baptist's father, telling him that his wife Elizabeth would

conceive despite their old age? Why in your false opinion were the

ministering of angels more viable back then? You are like sectarian

preachers described below:

(Some preachers and other professors of religion reject account of First

Vision-Persecution heaped upon Joseph Smith-He testifies of the reality of

the vision.)(Verses 21-26.)

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with

one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned

religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I

took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was

greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only

lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there

were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such

things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more

of them.

22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great

deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause

of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an

obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my

circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world,

yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public

mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among

all the sects-all united to persecute me.

23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very

strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age,

and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty

maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient

importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular

sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most

bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was

often the cause of great sorrow to myself.

24 However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have

thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before

King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a

light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him;

some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and

reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen

a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not

make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he

knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and

heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think

or believe otherwise.

25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of

that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and

though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet

it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking

all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my

heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a

vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think

to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew

it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do

it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under

condemnation.

26 I had now got my mind satisfied so far as the sectarian world was

concerned-that it was not my duty to join with any of them, but to continue

as I was until further directed. I had found the testimony of James to be

true-that a man who lacked wisdom might ask of God, and obtain, and not be

upbraided.

> It also explains why he made the stupid prediction that the financially

> strapped struggling "church" would discover "hidden treasure". If the

> parishioners believed it once with the gold plates, maybe they won't

> desert him if he makes another winning lottery ticket prediction again.

> It was an act of desperation, not one of proving some divine blessing.

>

> So given that his background doesn't recommend him as a prophet, or as one

> who would win the lottery ticket of allegedly discovering these gold

> plates using demonic "seer stones", "necromancers", dead brothers, and

> greedy treasure hunters, why, after using the tools and symbology of the

> occult, would God entrust Joe to godly things? Think about it. The

> united States was largely made up of reformed Christians who already had

> strong knowledge and fear of the Holy Bible. Why not expand operations

> in a pagan area of the world like the Far East? God hates Chinamen?

> What we have is wild stories of Jesus Christ and Joe Smith preaching to

> the choir rather than evangelizing the lost.

Ephraim is the birthright tribe. United States is Ephraim. Through Ephraim

the Gospel has been preached around the world.

> The usual procedure found in Scripture is that the child is called out

> into the ministry of a prophet through revelation to the parents first,

> and then the child is tutored in the ways of the LORD for many decades

> before that middle-aged adult begins the ministry. Joseph Smith had NONE

> of that. His own biography shows violation after violation of that

> Biblical manner and path. There is a reason why God went through the

> parents first and had the child go through decades of preparation before

> ministry - to eliminate the possibility of charlatans popping up and

> claiming to be prophets. Baby Moses, Samuel, John the Baptist and many

> others are shown to go down this path. Prophets like Elijah, the Bible

> does not desire to show us his character, only his ministry. Yet, we know

> of Elijah raising the dead and calling down fire from the sky. What are

> Joseph Smith's bona fides? His allegiance with demon and cultic talismans

> to discover things that are allegedly of God (and just incidentally are

> written on highly valued treasure which was the rage at that time). Did

> God write the Decalogue on gold or on stone? You have more red flags

> than May Day in Red Square.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 11:29

Paul who in practically all his writings was inspired by the Spirit wrote

the above and knows the verse to be true better than anyone because he was

in an unrepentant state persecuting the Saints when on road to Damascus with

some follower he saw Jesus Christ in a vision that his followers saw as

well.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send

peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the

daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in

law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he

that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 10:34-37

Apostle John who wrote the last book in the NT in your Bible was handpicked

by Jesus. So were all His other 12 Apostles. What about Jeremiah, Isaiah,

Ezekiel, or Amos? They were all called of God personally. So you're just

fabricating your own doctrine on what a prophet should be misleading people.

> So now we have you and your handlers falsely telling us that the Bible is

> merely one testimony. That is either profoundly ignorant or highly

> deceptive characterization of the canon. Take your pick. But this

> claim is absolutely necessary in order to conjure up the notion that there

> must be a second testimony. Well, if there is to be a second testimony,

> what happened to the "Book of Lehi"? Is this a testimony that God

> intended to be translated and then consequently lost forever? What kind

> of screwed up god couldn't manage to keep a translation around?

>

> And this gets to an important part here. "For verily I say unto you, Till

> heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from

> the law, till all be fulfilled." - Jesus Christ as recorded by Matthew

> (5:18).

>

> A prophet of the magnitude that Joseph Smith is alleged to be ranked,

> would have as his job description to tell of future things, and to

> administer the law. Now Jesus Christ is saying that not one jot or

> tittle shall pass from the law, but we have Joseph losing not just a jot

> or tittle, but the whole book of Lehi! Compare that to the enormous

> effort to preserve the entirety of the OT canon over the millennia,

> through wars, sieges, holocausts, dispersion and captivity. The OT canon

> has been preserved by God as a testimony to the coming Messiah, while

> Joseph and his irresponsible clod buddies are getting drunk and losing

> whole books of alleged "second testimony".

>

> Third, we have the canon of Scripture divinly inspired. That is,

> Christians believe as an article of faith that the entire Bible has been

> inspired by God and that the Spirit wrote down the revelations through

> men. Joseph is alleged to have digged up some buried treasure written by

> some unknown gnostic mystic on gold plates buried in the north eastern

> part of the united States a sleepy little no-name town between Lake

> Ontario and Interstate 90, which as we all know has been a hotbed of

> ancient Jewish and Christian history and prophecy. Then he hid away in

> his home using magic crystals while his face was buried in his hat to read

> these plates no one else has seen. I'm sure that Elijah and Moses

> routinely strapped on magic fairy rocks and cast chicken bones and eyes of

> newt to determine God's revealed plan.

We have the written testimonies of three credible witnesses, Martin Harris,

Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer who saw an angel turn over the pages of

the gold plates in bright daylight. Even though at one point each left the

church (2 came back except Whitmer), they never in their absence from the

Church ever denied their testimonies. Never.

I am not a Mormon and never have been but do believe in Mormonism (I believe

the modern Mormon Church are in apostasy that they have departed from the

correct teachings of the early Mormons.) I have mainly posted to only Mormon

newsgroups but have decided now to make a foray into many Christian

newsgroups. I am not trying to be intrusive or impose myself upon others but

sincerely believe that there are many doctrines of Mormonism that can answer

many of the questions that Christians have about their faith. I know there

must be many Christians out there who are curious of the Mormon faith as

there are a lot of misinformation spread about it so I would like clarify

these issues. I believe in an open dialogue and hope these posts can be of

great benefit.

THE THREE WITNESSES

A Response to the Utah Evangel

by

Ogden Kraut

Ever since the restoration of the Gospel of Christ and the re-establishment

of His Church, there have been a multitude of anti-Mormon writers pouring

out their venom against it. Most of this opposition comes from apostate

Mormons. That is understandable because Christ also suffered most from

apostates. Nevertheless, there should be some response made in vindication.

Oliver Cowdery said it best:

Since then our opposer, have been thus kind to introduce our cause before

the public, it is no more than just that a correct account should be given;

and since they have invariably sought to cast a shade over the truth, and

hinder its influence from gaining ascendancy, it is also proper that it

should be vindicated by laying before the world a correct statement of

events as they have transpired from time to time. (Letters by Oliver Cowdery

to W. W. Phelps, p. 15

This response is very brief in comparison to the volumes that could be

written in answer to the many publications by the anti-Mormons and

ex-Mormons. These people publish newspapers, books, pamphlets and produce

films and videos with a critical and negative attitude of the liberal left

wing of our "modern counterfeit Christians." their entire gospel is

anti-Mormonism. The following article comes from one such newspaper:

[2] The Three Witnesses

by Robert McKay

In the front of every Book of Mormon is found a statement called the

Testimony of Three Witnesses. It is signed by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer,

and Martin Harris. The Testimony says in substance that these three men saw

an angel holding the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was

supposedly translated.

The Mormon church claims that these three men were sober, steady

individuals who would not lie, who could not be easily fooled, and whose

word was reliable. The facts are otherwise. Rather than being unimpeachable,

these witnesses and their testimony are worthless in determining the truth

about the Book of Mormon.

Oliver Cowdery, the first the three witnesses, was not an upstanding

citizen. Among other things, he was a counterfeiter. A booklet published in

Warsaw, Illinois, states, "Joe (Joseph Smith) told me, that in Ohio he...and

Oliver Cowdery...were engaged in a bogus establishment" (The Adventures and

Experience of Joseph H. Jackson, pg. 15). A letter signed by 84 Mormons

declared that "Oliver Cowdery...united with a gang of counterfeiters"

(quoted in Senate Document 189, pg. 8). In 1838 Cowdery was tried before the

Far West (Missouri) High Council. The eighth charge against him was, "For

disgracing the Church by being connected in the bogus business." This charge

was "sustained" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, pgs. 16-17).

The LDS church claims that not one of the witnesses ever denied his

testimony. Yet a poem publishes in 1841 asks if it proves "Book of Mormon

not his (God's) word Because denied, by Oliver?" (Times and Seasons, Vol. 2.

pg. 482). Apparently Cowdery wasn't as sure of his statements as Mormons

would like to think.

David Whitmer was also involved in counterfeiting. His character is further

revealed by Joseph Smith's statement that Whitmer was a "dumb ass" (History

of the Church, Vol. 3. pg. 228). Whitmer himself declared, "if you believe

my testimony to the Book of Mormon...then I tell you that in June, 1838, God

spoke to me again by His own voice from the heavens, and told me to

`separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints (sic)...'" (An Address to

All Believers in Christ, pg. 27). According to this statement, if Whitmer's

testimony to the Book of Mormon is true then the LDS church has apostatized.

But the church denies that what Whitmer says here is true, thus casting

doubt on his testimony to the Book of Mormon.

The third witness, Martin Harris, was no better. It was Harris who lost the

116 pages of the book of Lehi, forcing Joseph Smith to start "translating"

all over again. Because of this incident. Harris was called "a wicked man,

Who...has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God"

(Doctrine & Covenants 3:12-13). An affidavit made in 1833 declares, "I have

been acquainted with Martin Harris, about thirty years... his moral and

religious character was such, as not to entitle him to respect among his

neighbors...He was first an orthadox (sic) Quaker, then a Universalist, next

a Restorationer, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon"

(Mormonism Unvailed, pgs. 260-261). An official Mormon publication said of

Harris, "he changed his religious position eight times" after accepting the

Book of Mormon (Improvement Era, March 69, pg. 63). One of the groups he

joined was the Shakers, who had their own "latter day scripture." At one

point Harris claimed that he believed in the Shakers more strongly than he

did his own testimony to the Book of Mormon (Martin Harris - Witness and

Benefactor to the Book of Mormon, pg. 52).

All three of these witnesses were excommunicated from the Mormon church.

Joseph Smith wrote, "Such characters as...David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and

Martin Harris, are too mean to mention, and we had liked to have forgotten

them" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, pg. 232).

Thus we see that the Testimony of Three Witnesses was signed by men who

were unreliable, who denied their testimony, and who were condemned by those

they aided. To hold these three men and their testimony up to the world as

proof that the Book of Mormon is of God is analogous to letting one

rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted.

THE UTAH EVANGEL

Aug.-Sept. 1985

[3] To recap, then, Robert McKay's article makes the following charges

against the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon:

1. Oliver Cowdery denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon.

2. Oliver Cowdery was a counterfeiter.

3. David Whitmer was a counterfeiter.

4. David Whitmer was told by God to leave the Saints, inferring that the

Church had apostatized.

5. Martin Harris's "moral and religious character was such, as not to

entitle him to respect among his neighbors, . . . " and also that "he

changed his religious position eight times...."

6. The three witnesses were unreliable, denied their testimony, and were

condemned by those they aided. Their testimony is like "letting one

rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted."

Oftentimes such accusations are false, overemphasized, or without real

proof, as is the case with the above charges. Without delving extensively

into the subject, here are a few explanations and clarifications that should

be considered in response to these charges by McKay.

Charge 1. Oliver Cowdery denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon.

In addition to the testimony given in the Book of Mormon, Cowdery made

similar positive statements even after he had left the LDS Church. The

following report was printed in 1910 by Judge C. M. Nielsen of Salt Lake

City. He stated that while he was traveling as a missionary in Minnesota

during the year of 1884, he met a wealthy farmer who became especially

interested in him because he came from Utah. The farmer stated that when he

was 21, an interesting event occurred at the time he was working on his

father's farm in Michigan. On one of his days off, he went to town where the

following incident occurred, as retold by Judge Nielsen:

"Near the courthouse I saw a great many people assembling and others

walking that way, so I went over to see what was up. There was a jam in the

courtroom, but being young and strong, I pushed my way close up to the

center, where I found the prosecuting attorney addressing the court and jury

in a murder trial. The prosecuting attorney was Oliver Cowdery, and he was

giving his opening address in behalf of the state. (After he was

excommunicated from the Church, Oliver Cowdery studied law, practicing in

Ohio, Wisconsin and then Michigan, where he was elected prosecuting

attorney.) After Cowdery sat down, the attorney representing the prisoner

arose and with taunting sarcasm said: `May it please the court and gentlemen

of the jury, I see one Oliver Cowdery is going to reply to my argument. I

wish he would tell us something about that golden [4] Bible that Joe Smith

dug out of the hill; something about the great fraud he perpetrated upon the

American people whereby he gained thousands of dollars. Now he seems to know

so much about this poor prisoner, I wonder if he has forgotten all about Joe

Smith and his connection with him.' The speaker all the while sneering and

pointing his finger in scorn at Cowdery in the hope of making him ridiculous

before the court and jury.

"Everybody present began to wonder if they had been guilty of making such

a mistake as choosing a Mormon for prosecuting attorney. Even the judge on

the bench began looking with suspicion and distrust at the prosecuting

attorney. The prisoner and his attorney became elated at the effect of the

speech. People began asking, `Is he a Mormon?' Everybody wondered what

Cowdery would say against such foul charges.

"Finally Oliver Cowdery arose, calm as a summer morning. I was within

three feet of him. There was no hesitation, no fear, no anger in his voice,

as he said: `May it please the court, and gentlemen of the jury, my brother

attorney on the other side has charged me with connection with Joseph Smith

and the golden Bible. The responsibility has been placed upon me, and I

cannot escape reply. Before God and man I dare not deny what I have said,

and what my testimony contains as written and printed on the front page of

the Book of Mormon. May it please your honor and gentlemen of the jury, this

I say, I saw the angel and heard his voice--how can I deny it? It happened

in the daytime when the sun was shining bright in the firmament; not in the

night when I was asleep. That glorious messenger from heaven, dressed in

white, standing above the ground, in a glory I have never seen anything to

compare with--the sun insignificant in comparison--and this personage told

us if we denied that testimony, there is no forgiveness in this life nor in

the world to come. Now how can I deny it--I dare not; I will not!'"

The man who related this to me was a prominent man in that state; he was a

rich man, a man who has held offices of trust from the people--a man of

respect, one when you look into his face you will not doubt. To strengthen

his statement this man, who knew nothing of "Mormon" history, said Oliver

Cowdery mentioned something he wanted me to explain--that the angel took

back a part that was not translated. We know this and that part of the gold

plates then withheld will be revealed at some future time.

"Since I heard Oliver Cowdery speak," continued my host, "I have not had

peace for these many years. I want to know more about your people. I felt

when I listened to Oliver Cowdery talking in the courtroom, he was more than

an ordinary man. If you can show us that you have what Oliver Cowdery

testified to, we shall be glad to receive it." (Liahona, August 30, 1910)

From this account it is very clear that even after Oliver left the Church,

he still did not deny his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Furthermore, he

had no intention of denying it in the future.

[5] Ten years after Oliver left the Church he returned to it. In October

1848 he arrived in Kanesville, Iowa, with his wife and daughter. He attended

a Church conference there and was invite to speak. Bishop Reuben Miller made

this verbatim account of Oliver's testimony:

"Friends and Brethren--My name is Cowdery, Oliver Cowdery. In the early

history of this Church I stood identified with her, and was one in her

councils. True it is that the gifts and callings of God are without

repentance. Not because I was better than the rest of mankind was I called;

but, to fulfill the purposes of God, He called me a high and holy calling.

"I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as

it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he translated it by

the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or, as it

is called by that book, `holy interpreters.' I beheld with my eyes and

handled with my hands the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also

saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the `holy interpreters.' That

book is true. Sidney Rigdon did not write it; Mr. Spaulding did not write

it; I wrote it myself as it fell frown the lips of the Prophet. It contains

the Everlasting Gospel, and came forth to the children of men in fulfillment

of the revelations of John, where he says he saw an angel come with the

Everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It

contains the principles of salvation; and if you, my hearers, will walk by

its light and obey its precepts, you will be saved with an everlasting

salvation in the kingdom of God on high. Brother Hyde has just said that it

is very important that we keep and walk in the true channel, in order to

avoid the sand-bars. This is true. The channel is here. The holy Priesthood

is here.

"I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from

heaven and conferred on us, or restored, the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood,

and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while

the earth stands.

"I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchizedek Priesthood

was conferred by holy angels from on high. This Priesthood we then conferred

on each other, by the will and commandment of God. This Priesthood, as was

then declared, is also to remain upon the earth until the last remnant of

time. This holy Priesthood, or authority, we then conferred upon many and is

just as good and valid as though God had done it in person.

"I laid my hands upon that man--yes, I laid my right hand upon his head

(pointing to Brother Hyde), and I conferred upon him this Priesthood, and he

holds that Priesthood now. He was also called through me, by the prayer of

faith, an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ."

In the early part of November following, Elder Hyde called a High Council

meeting in the log Tabernacle to consider the case of Oliver Cowdery; having

been cut off by the voice of a High Council, it was thought that, if he was

restored, he should be restored by the voice of a similar body. Before this

body Brother Cowdery said:

[6] "Brethren, for a number of years I have been separated from you. I now

desire to come back. I wish to come humbly and to be one in your midst. I

seek no station; I only wish to be identified with you. I am out of the

Church. I am not a member of the Church, but I wish to become a member of

it. l wish to come in at the door. I know the door. I have not come here to

seek precedence. I come humbly and throw myself upon the decisions of this

body, knowing as I do that its decisions are right and should be obeyed."

Brother George W. Harris, President of the Council, moved that Brother

Cowdery be received. Considerable discussion took place in relation to a

certain letter which, it was alleged, Brother Cowdery had written to David

Whitmer. Brother Cowdery again rose and said:

"If there be any person that has aught against me, let him declare it. My

coming back and humbly asking to become a member, through the door, covers

the whole ground. I acknowledge this authority." (Mill. Star 21:544-546)

At this conference Orson Hyde made a motion that Oliver Cowdery be received

back into the Church, which was seconded and carried unanimously. Shortly

afterwards Oliver was again baptized and confirmed a member of the Church.

Here again Oliver gave a strong confirmation of his previous testimony.

There were no qualms, side-stepping or excuses, which would have been the

case if he had previously denied that testimony.

After Oliver Cowdery had rejoined the Saints, he desired to journey out

west to Salt Lake City. However, a severe snow storm compelled him to remain

in Iowa for a couple of weeks. Samuel W. Richards was privileged to spend

much of this time with Oliver, and he wrote the following account of those

visits:

I had but the fall before returned from my first mission to the British

Isles, and was in the spirit of inquiry as to all matters of early history

and experiences in the Church, and soon found there was no reserve on the

part of Oliver in answering my many questions. In doing so his mind seemed

as fresh in the recollection of events, which occurred more than a score of

years before, as though they were but of yesterday.

To hear him describe, in his pleasant but earnest manner, the personality

of those heavenly messengers, with whom he and the Prophet had so freely

held converse, was enchanting to my soul. Their heavenly appearance, clothed

in robes of purity; the influence of their presence, so lovely and serene;

their eyes, that seemed to penetrate to the very depths of the soul,

together with the color of the eyes that gazed upon them, were all so

beautifully related as to almost make one feel that they were then

present....

Before taking his departure he wrote and left with the writer of this, the

following statement, which we believe to be his last living testimony,

though oft repeated, of the wonderful manifestations which brought the

authority of God to men on the earth:

[7] "While darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people; long

after the authority to administer in holy things had been taken away, the

Lord opened the heavens and sent forth His word for the salvation of Israel.

In fulfillment of the sacred scriptures, the everlasting gospel was

proclaimed by the mighty angel (Moroni) who, clothed with the authority of

his mission, gave glory to God in the highest. This gospel is the `stone

taken from the mountain without hands.' John the Baptist, holding the keys

of the Aaronic Priesthood; Peter, James and John, holding the keys of the

Melchizedek Priesthood, have also ministered for those who shall be heirs of

salvation, and with these administrations, ordained men to the same

Priesthoods. These Priesthoods, with their authority, are now, and must

continue to be, in the body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day

Saints. Blessed is the Elder who has received the same, and thrice blessed

and holy is he who shall endure to the end.

"Accept assurances, dear brother, of the unfeigned prayer of him who, in

connection with Joseph the Seer, was blessed with the above ministrations,

and who earnestly and devoutly hopes to meet you in the celestial glory.

(Oliver Cowdery, to Samuel W. Richards, January 13, 1849; see Improvement

Era 2:90-96)

Edward Stevenson also relates the following:

"I have often heard him <Oliver Cowdery> bear a faithful testimony to the

restoration of the gospel by the visitation of an angel, in whose presence

he stood in company with the Prophet Joseph Smith and David Whitmer. He

testified that he beheld the plates, the leaves being turned over by the

angel, whose voice he heard, and that they were commanded as witnesses to

bear a faithful testimony to the world of the vision that they were favored

to behold, and that the translation from the plates in the Book of Mormon

was accepted of the Lord, and that it should go forth to the world, and no

power on earth should stop its progress. Although for a time Oliver Cowdery

absented himself from the body of the Church, I never have known a time when

he faltered or was recreant to the trust so sacredly entrusted to him by an

angel from heaven." (Mill. Star 48:420)

Oliver Cowdery died on March 3rd, 1850, at Richmond, Missouri. Phineas

Young, who was present at his death, wrote the following:

"His last moments were spent in bearing testimony of the truth of the

gospel revealed through Joseph Smith, and the power of the holy Priesthood

which he had received through his administrations."

And . . .

Oliver Cowdery's half-sister, Lucy P. Young a widow of the late Phineas H.

Young, relates that Oliver Cowdery just before breathing his last, asked his

attendants to raise him up in bed, that [8] he might talk to the family and

his friends, who were present. He then told them to live according to the

teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them, if they would

do this, that they would meet him in heaven. He then said, "Lay me down and

let me fall asleep." A few moments later he died without a struggle.

(Biographical Encyclopedia, Jensen, 1:251)

In 1878 David Whitmer told Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith that:

"Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw. After shaking hands with the

family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said, `Now I lay me down for

the last time: I am going to my Savior;' and he died immediately with a

smile on his face." (Mill. Star 40:774)

As a witness to the Book of Mormon, Oliver died faithful to his testimony.

There are many accounts of that testimony given while he was a member of the

Church, after he left the Church, and when he returned. There are no

conclusive proofs that he ever denied his witnessing the golden plates. Any

accounts otherwise were based on rumor and are without verification.

Charge 2. Oliver Cowdery was a counterfeiter.

From all available research concerning Oliver's involvement in some bogus

money charge, there seems to be only rumors and accusations against him

without any definite proof. His name had been slandered by it, and it

somewhat dampened the reputation of the Church, but I can find no facts to

bear it out. Cowdery never went to prison for such a "crime"; there were no

trial or sentence held against him; nor has there since been any evidence to

prove his "guilt". It is difficult to defend or expose a charge which has no

evidence either for or against it.

But let's consider the type of characters who originated these charges--The

84 "Mormons" who signed the statement charging Oliver Cowdery as being

connected with counterfeiters were not those considered to be orthodox

Mormons. Many of these "Mormons" who testified in the Senate Document were

Sampson Avard, Reed Peck, George Hinkle, John Corrill and others of like

character. A statement by Nancy Rigdon sheds light on the character of

Sampson Avard:

I have heard Sampson Avard say that he would swear to a lie to accomplish

an object; that he had told many a lie, and would do so again. (Senate

Document 189, p. 40)

The same document contained testimony against Joseph Smith and all the

Twelve Apostles, accusing them of "high treason against the State for

murder, burglary, arson, robbery, and larceny." These were charges, too, but

proof was another thing.

[9] The key figure in pressing these counterfeit charges was Joseph H.

Jackson who published them in a booklet in Warsaw, Illinois. By his own

confession, he was a fugitive from the law, and had "committed the darkest

crimes", probably even being guilty himself of counterfeiting. The Warsaw

Signal, with its editor, T. C. Sharp, was a constant source of anti-Mormon

propaganda. Nearly every apostate had joined hands with the mobocrats and

anti-Mormons. These were the "men who had used their uttermost endeavors for

more than two years to incite the people to acts of mob violence against the

saints, . . ." (C.H.C. 2:235) Sometimes they would set fires to buildings

and blame the Mormons for it. From the little evidence available, it appears

that counterfeiting was another false charge against the leaders of the

Church.

In a special Nauvoo City Council session "Theodore Turley, a mechanic, who

being sworn, said that the Laws (William and Wilson), had brought bogus dies

to him to fix." (D.H.C. 6:435) They were apostates trying to bring about the

destruction of Joseph and Hyrum, along with most of the other leaders of the

Church. In that same meeting Hyrum Smith declared that he knew that "Jackson

was engaged in trying to make bogus, which was his principle business."

(Ibid., 6:435) Another witness, Lorenzo Wasson was sworn in and said,

"Joseph H. Jackson had told witness that bogus-making was going on in the

city; but it was too damned small business. Wanted witness to help him to

procure money, for the General (Smith) was afraid to go into it; and with

$500 he could get an engraving for bills on the Bank of Missouri, and one on

the State of New York, and could make money." (D.H.C. 6:436)

The City Council was aware of the bogus money being made in and around

Nauvoo and was trying to get evidence of who was responsible for it. Another

witness was called up by the name of Warren Smith, who stated:

F. M. Higbee came to him, and proposed to have him go in as a partner in

making bogus money. Higbee said he would not work for a living; that witness

might go in with him if he would advance fifty dollars; and showed him

(witness) a half-dollar which he said was made in his dies. (D.H.C. 6:447)

Joseph Smith, as Mayor of Nauvoo, wanted this counterfeiting press to be

dispatched as he did the press of the Nauvoo Expositor. Both were apparently

being operated by the same people. The Warsaw Signal newspaper was

constantly hurling malicious and slanderous attacks against the Saints,

occasionally inciting mob action against them. As a result, Joseph made the

following announcement:

Proclamation

By virtue of my office as Mayor of the city of Nauvoo, I do hereby

strictly enjoin it upon the municipal officers and citizens of said city to

use all honorable and lawful means in their power to assist me in

maintaining the public peace and common quiet of said city. As attempts have

already been made to excite the jealousy and prejudice of the people of the

surrounding country, by libels and [10] slanderous articles upon the

citizens and City Council, for the purpose of destroying the charter of said

city, and for the purpose of raising suspicion, wrath, and indignation among

a certain class of the less honorable portion of mankind, to commit acts of

violence upon the innocent and unsuspecting, in a certain newspaper called

the Nauvoo Expositor, recently established for such purposes in said city,

and which has been destroyed as a nuisance, according to the provision of

the charter. I further call upon every officer, authority, and citizen to be

vigilant in preventing, by wisdom the promulgation of false statements,

libels, slanders, or any other malicious or evil-designed concern that may

be put in operation to excite and ferment the passions of men to rebel

against the rights and privileges of the city, citizens, or laws of the

land; to be ready to suppress the gathering of mobs; to repel, by gentle

means and noble exertion, every foul scheme of unprincipled men to disgrace

and dishonor the city, or state, or any of their legally-constituted

authorities; and, finally to keep the peace by being cool, considerate,

virtuous, unoffending, manly, and patriotic, as the true sons of liberty

ever have been, and honorably maintain the precious boon our illustrious

fathers won.

In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and affixed the seal of

said corporation at the city of Nauvoo, this 11th day of June,

1844. --Signed Joseph Smith, Mayor. (D.H.C. 6:449)

In the session of the City Council, Jackson was exposed as a counterfeiter

and a murderer. Brigham Young spoke at the trial of Sidney Rigdon and

declared:

John C. Bennett said in his exposure, he knew all of Brother Joseph's

secrets, and he would publish them. Joseph H. Jackson, says he has published

all Joseph's secrets, but nobody believes their tales, because they lie! And

if Sidney Rigdon undertakes to publish all of our secrets, as he says, he

will lie the first jump he takes.... Any man that says the Twelve are bogus

makers, or adulterers, or wicked men, is a liar; and all who say such things

shall have the fate of liars, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who is there that has seen us do such things? No man. (Times and Seasons

5:664)

The publishers of the Nauvoo Expositor were friends of Joseph Jackson and

they defended him when they wrote:

We have reason to believe, from our acquaintance with Mr. Jackson, and our

own observation, that the statements he makes are true; and in view of these

facts, we ask, in the name of heaven, where is the safety of our lives and

liberties, when placed at the disposal of such heaven daring, hell

deserving, God forsaken villains. (Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844, p. 3)

[11] It is interesting to note the method they have of twisting things

around because as they were talking about fear for their "lives and

liberties", they themselves were in the process of plotting to kill Joseph,

Hyrum and others, and driving the Saints from the state in the middle of

winter.

Oliver Cowdery was aware of some others in and around Nauvoo that had made

an attempt to create bogus money according to Frederick G. Williams.

<Frederick G.> Williams, who vacillated between being a dissenter and a

faithful member of the Church, testified that Oliver had personally informed

him of a man in the Church by the name of Davis who would compound metal and

make dies which could print money that could not be detected from the real

thing. (A History of the Latter-day Saints in Northern Missouri from 1836 to

1839, BYU, 1965, p. 146)

Claims were made that Cowdery was an accessory and that he had a warrant

issued against him, but according to all available information, he was never

convicted or proven guilty.

Most of the counterfeit coins were turning up in Warsaw, as admitted by the

Warsaw Signal. Could it be that the bulk of counterfeiting was actually done

in Warsaw? Perhaps those who produced most of the counterfeit money actually

lived in Warsaw and were not Mormons at all. Or, could it be that the Mormon

apostates, anti-Mormons, and others used Nauvoo as headquarters for their

bogus operation? It would be an ideal place for it because if discovered,

they could blame the Mormon Church and its leaders.

There is a species of counterfeit, extensively circulated in this

community, called Nauvoo Bogus. They are half dollars, dated 1828. They are

a pretty good imitation of the genuine coin--so good, that some of our

business men have been imposed upon by them. It is said they are

manufactured in the City of the Saints. (Warsaw Signal, April 24, 1844, p.

2)

Only a few Mormons, or Mormon apostates, were actually involved or aware of

the bogus money, but the Mormons and their leaders were being charged with

the crime of originating it. Some Mormon people became innocent victims of

this bogus money, but it did not mean they were guilty of producing or

sanctioning it. (If you look along the edges of a dime, quarter or

half-dollar today, you will see that we too are the innocent victims of a

poor imitation of real money.)

Even if a Mormon had any association with someone who was or eventually

became connected with the bogus money, their names and reputation were

attached to counterfeiting by the Warsaw Signal. But how strange that all

the people in Warsaw found with most of the bogus money were never mentioned

by name--whether they were innocent or guilty.

[12] Some of those guilty of counterfeiting were eventually caught and

arrested.

We extract the following from the St. Louis Reviele:

Counterfeiters-- Mormon Certificates. Yesterday morning, a boy named

Theron Terrill was arrested, having in his possession twelve American half

and eight Spanish quarter dollars, all counterfeited in some sort of base

metal. On examination by the Marshal, he stated that many had been given to

him by one George Reader, with whom he had lived in former years, but who he

had only recently seen again. For a long time the boy maintained secrecy,

but, eventually, he yielded, and so told his story, Reader was caught and

arrested on board the Ospery, having taken passage for himself and the boy

to Nauvoo.... (Warsaw Signal, June 5, 1844)

It was also later discovered that John Long admitted that he had hidden

"two bogus presses" and stated that the presses belonged to Edward Bonney.

Governor Ford attended the trial of Bonney.

I, Thomas Ford, late Governor of Illinois, do certify that I was present

during the whole trial of Edward Bonney for counterfeiting, . . . I was

fully persuaded from the evidence adduced, that the prosecution was put on

foot, so far as Haight and the other witnesses against Bonney were

concerned, to be revenged on him for ferreting out and bringing to

punishment the murderers of Col. Davenport. And for the further object of

stopping Bonney from pursuing the residue of said murderers, then and yet at

large.--Thomas Ford, Jan. 6, 1847. (The Banditti of the Prairies, p. 259)

Another man called "Eaton" had been accused of making the bogus money, but

the final arrests of the guilty parties were announced in 1845:

Counterfeiters Arrested. Two of the Nauvoo Saints were arrested in

Burlington, Iowa, on the 20th ult., for passing counterfeit money. Their

names were Cyrus Chase and Rufus Adams, and each had passed on the same day

a $10 bill on the Lafayette Bank of Cincinnati. Other counterfeit money was

found upon them. They were both committed for trim. (St. Louis American,

Dec. 2, 1845)

However, Oliver Cowdery was never arrested, tried or found guilty of any of

these nefarious bogus operations. Neither were any of the other General

Authorities of the Church.

Charge 3. David Whitmer was a counterfeiter.

The same charge against Oliver Cowdery included David Whitmer, and evidence

is also lacking in his behalf.

[13]

Charge 4. David Whitmer was told by God to leave the Saints, inferring that

the Church had apostatized.

Church history records many interesting events connected with David

Whitmer. During some very trying times one of the Elders, William McLellin,

lost faith in the leaders of the Church, and "quit praying" and "quit

keeping the commandments of God" and "indulged himself in his lustful

desires." He was excommunicated from the Church at Far West. (D.H.C. 3:31)

From then on--

.. . . he took an active part in the persecution of the Saints in Missouri,

and at one time expressed the desire to do violence to the person of Joseph

Smith, while the latter was confined in Liberty prison. Subsequently he

attempted what he called a reorganization of the Church, and called upon

David Whitmer to take the presidency thereof, claiming that he was ordained

by Joseph Smith on the 8th of July, 1834, as his (the Prophet Joseph's)

successor. (D.H.C. 3:32)

The Prophet Joseph Smith wrote about these events while in Liberty Jail and

said:

But behold the words of the Savior: "If the light which is in you become

darkness, behold how great is that darkness." Look at the dissenters. Again,

"If you were of the world, the world would love its own." Look at Mr.

Hinkle--a wolf in sheep's clothing. Look at his brother John Corrill. Look

at the beloved brother Reed Peck, who aided him in leading us, as the Savior

was led, into the camp of His enemies, as a lamb prepared for the slaughter,

as a sheep dumb before his shearers; so we opened not our mouths.

But these men, like Balaam, being greedy for reward, sold us into the

hands of those who loved them, for the world loves his own. I would remember

William E. McLellin, who comes up to us as one of Job's comforters. God

suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job--but it never entered into their

hearts that Job would get out of it all. This poor man who professes to be

much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to

forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel; and this ass not being

of the same kind as Balaam's, therefore, the angel notwithstanding appeared

unto him, yet he could not penetrate his understanding sufficiently, but

that he brays out cursings instead of blessings. (D.H.C. 3:228)

Whitmer, like many of the men at that time, was severely tried and tested.

He was mortal and had weaknesses which led him into a wayward position

resulting in his being excommunicated from the Church. But during his trials

and temptations, he did not waver from nor deny his testimony of the Book of

Mormon and its truthfulness. It was in his darkness that he made the

following statement, as referred to in McKay's article:

If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon . . . then I tell you

that in June, 1838, God spoke to me again by His own voice from the heavens,

and told me to `separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints.... '

[14] This is a strong possibility, as when men get into that much darkness,

it is reasonable that God would not want them to remain any longer with the

Saints. If Joseph Smith likened Whitmer to "a dumb ass", then God certainly

would not want any of those in His Church! In fact, all these modern

Evangelist preachers who were once Mormons, claiming to be "Christians" but

acting more like dumb asses, were probably told by God to "separate

themselves" from the Latter-day Saints, as well. It would also be better for

them to leave the Saints alone, but they have done just as Joseph said they

would do--

Renegade "Mormon" dissenters are running through the world and spreading

various foul and libelous reports against us, thinking thereby to gain the

friendship of the world, because they know that we are not of the world, and

that the world hates us; therefore they <the world> make a tool of these

fellows <the dissenters>; and by them try to do all the injury they can, and

after that they hate them worse than they do us, because they find them to

be base traitors and sycophants.

Such characters God hates; we cannot love them. The world hates them, and

we sometimes think that the devil ought to be ashamed of them. (D.H.C.

3:230)

David Whitmer made the mistake of falling in with some of these dissenters

and he himself became confused on certain issues in the Church. However, he

never denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon. In fact, he strongly

refuted those rumors that he and the other two witnesses had ever denied

their testimonies of this sacred scripture:

It is recorded in the American Cyclopaedia and the Encyclopaedia

Britannica, that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the

three witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon; and that the other

two witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, denied their testimony to

that Book. I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never at any

time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world,

that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their

testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity

of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the death bed of Oliver Cowdery, and

his last words were, "Brother David, be true to your testimony to the Book

of Mormon." He died here in Richmond, Mo., on March 3d, 1850. Many witnesses

yet live in Richmond, who will testify to the truth of these facts, as well

as to the good character of Oliver Cowdery. The very powers of darkness have

combined against the Book of Mormon, to prove that it is not the word of

God, and this should go to prove to men of spiritual understanding, that the

Book is true. (Address to All Believers in Christ by a Witness to the Divine

Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, by David Whitmer, 1887, p. 8)

[15] In spite of all of Whitmer's straying from Church doctrines, his

difficulties with Joseph Smith, and being influenced by apostates, David

continued to bear a straight-forward testimony of seeing the plates. In 1878

Apostles Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith went to visit him and reported as

follows:

Orson Pratt: "Do you remember what time you saw the plates?"

David Whitmer: "It was in June, 1829, the latter part of the month, and

the Eight Witnesses saw them, I think, the next day or the day after (i.e.,

one or two days after). Joseph showed them the plates himself, but the angel

showed us (the Three Witnesses) the plates, as I suppose to fulfill the

words of the book itself. Martin Harris was not with us at this time; he

obtained a view of them afterwards (the same day). Joseph, Oliver and myself

were together when I saw them. We not only saw the plates of the Book of

Mormon, but also the brass plates, the plates of the Book of Ether, the

plates containing the records of the wickedness and secret combinations of

the people of the world down to the time of their being engraved, and many

other plates. The fact is, it was just as though Joseph, Oliver and I were

sitting just here on a log, when we were overshadowed by a light. It was not

like the light of the sun, nor like that of a fire, but more glorious and

beautiful. It extended away round us, I cannot tell how far, but in the

midst of this light about as far off as he sits (pointing to John C.

Whitmer, sitting a few feet from him), there appeared, as it were, a table

with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of

Mormon, also the sword of Laban, the directors (i.e., the ball which Lehi

had) and the interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed

(striking the bed beside him with his hand), and I heard the voice of the

Lord, as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life, declaring that the

records of the plates of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and

power of God." (Biographical Encyclopedia, Jensen, 1:266)

Before he died, David Whitmer made the following public announcement of his

testimony:

"Unto all Nations, Kindreds, Tongues and People, unto whom these presents

shall come:

"It having been represented by one John Murphy, of Polo, Caldwell County,

Missouri, that I, in a conversation with him last summer, denied my

testimony as one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon,

"To the end, therefore, that he may understand me now, if he did not then;

and that the world may know the truth, I wish now, standing as it were, in

the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once <and> for all to make

this public statement:

"That I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof,

which has so long since been published with that book, as one of the Three

Witnesses. Those who know me best well know that I have always adhered to

that testimony. And that no man may [16] be misled or doubt my present views

in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all my statements as

then made and published.

"`He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear;' it was no delusion; what is

written is written, and he that readeth let him understand.

"`And if any man doubt, should he not carefully and honestly read and

understand the same before presuming to sit in judgment and condemning the

light, which shineth in darkness, and showeth the way of eternal life as

pointed out by the unerring hand of God?'

"In the Spirit of Christ, who hath said: `Follow thou me, for I am the

life, the light and the way,' I submit this statement to the world; God in

whom I trust being my judge as to the sincerity of my motives and the faith

and hope that is in me of eternal life.

"My sincere desire is that the world may be benefited by this plain and

simple statement of the truth.

"And all the honor to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is

one God. Amen!

"DAVID WHITMER SEN., Richmond, Mo., March 19, 1881."

(Missouri Conservator, March 25, 1881)

A weekly Missouri newspaper called The Richmond Democrat printed the

following item concerning the death of David Whitmer:

"David Whitmer bore his long illness with great patience and fortitude,

his faith never for a moment wavering, and when the summons came he sank

peacefully to rest, with a smile on his countenance, just as if he was being

lulled to sleep by sweets music. Just before the breath left the body, he

opened his eyes, which glistened with the brightness of his early manhood.

He then turned them toward heaven, and a wonderful light came over his

countenance, which remained several moments, when the eyes gradually closed

and David Whitmer was gone to rest. On Monday last (Jan. 23, 1888), at 10

o'clock a.m., after awakening from a short slumber, he said he had seen

beyond the veil and saw Christ on the other side. His friends, who were

constantly at his bedside, claim that he had many manifestations of the

truths of the great beyond, and which confirms their faith beyond all shadow

of doubt. On Sunday evening, at 5:30 (Jan. 22, 1888), Mr. Whitmer called his

family and some friends to his bedside, and addressing himself to the

attending physician, said: `Dr. Buchanan, I want you to say whether or not l

am in my right mind, before I give my dying testimony.' The doctor answered:

`Yes, you are in your right mind, for I have just had a conversation with

you.' He then addressed himself to all around his bedside in these words:

`Now you must all be faithful in Christ. I want to say to you all, the Bible

and the record of the Nephites (Book of Mormon) is true, so you can say that

you have heard me bear my testimony on my death-bed. All be faithful in

Christ, and your reward will be according to your works. God bless you all.

My trust is in Christ forever, worlds without end. Amen.'"

[17]

Charge 5. Martin Harris's "moral and religious character was such, as not to

entitle him to respect among his neighbors. . . ", and also that "he changed

his religious position eight times...."

In answer to the last part of this charge, it is easy to understand why

anyone would wander around from church to church before becoming a Mormon.

That's like searching for a gourmet dinner in a 7-11 store. Then, when

Mormons somehow become disaffected with Joseph Smith or with the Church,

they again wander around without finding satisfaction in any of the

organized churches.

Any man on the brink of apostasy will experience feelings of doubt,

dissatisfaction and disappointment. The three witnesses of the Book of

Mormon were no exception; however, they never publicly denied their

testimony of the plates. Martin Harris made public and private statements

about the Book of Mormon, but they were not denials.

The following incident was recorded by David B. Dille, who visited Martin

Harris in 1853. Dille was on his way to fulfill a mission in Great Britain

and stopped enroute to see Harris.

"What do you think of the Book of Mormon? Is it a divine record?"

Mr. Harris replied and said, "I was the righthand man of Joseph Smith, and

I know that he was a Prophet of God. I know the Book of Mormon is true."

Then smiting his fist on the table, he said, "And you know that I know that

it is true. I know that the plates have been translated by the gift and

power of God, for His voice declared it unto us; therefore I know of surety

that the work is true. For," continued Mr. Harris, "did I not at one time

hold the plates on my knee an hour and a half, whilst in conversation with

Joseph, when we went to bury them in the woods, that the enemy might not

obtain them? Yes, I did. And as many of the plates as Joseph Smith

translated I handled with my hands, plate after plate."

Mr. Harris further said, "I took a transcript of the characters of the

plates to Dr. Anthon, of New York. When I arrived at the house of Professor

Anthon, I found him in his office and alone, and presented the transcript to

him, and asked him to read it. He said if I would bring the plates, he would

assist in the translation. I told him I could not, for they were sealed.

Professor Anthon then gave me a certificate certifying that the characters

were Arabic, Chaldaic, and Egyptian. I then left Dr. Anthon and was near the

door, when he said, `How did the young man know the plates were there?' I

said an angel had shown them to him. Professor Anthon then said, `Let me see

the certificate!'--upon which I took it from my waistcoat pocket and

unsuspectingly gave it to him. He then tore it up in anger, saying there was

no such thing as angels now--it was all a hoax. I then went to Dr. Mitchell

with the transcript, and he confirmed what Professor Anthon had said."

(Mill. Star 21:545)

[18] Edward Stevenson also recorded an interview with Martin Harris:

In the year 1869 I was appointed to a mission to the United States. Having

visited several of the Eastern States, I called at Kirtland, Ohio, to see

the first temple that was built by our people in this generation. While

there, I again met Martin Harris, soon after coming out of the temple. He

took from under his arm a copy of the Book of Mormon, the first edition, I

believe, and bore a faithful testimony, just the same as that I heard him

bear 36 years previously. He said that it was his duty to continue to lift

up his voice, as he had been commanded to do, in defense of the Book that he

held in his hand, and offered to prove from the Bible that just such a book

was to come forth out of the ground--and that, too, in a day when there were

no prophets on the earth--and that he was daily bearing testimony to many

who visited the temple. (Mill. Star 44:79)

Martin Harris, like Oliver Cowdery, eventually came back into the Church.

When he arrived in Utah, the Deseret News published the following:

He is remarkably vigorous for one of his years, his memory being very

good, and his sight, though his eyes appear to have failed, being so acute

that he can see to pick a pin off the ground.... He has never failed to bear

testimony to the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. He says it is

not a matter of belief on his part, but of knowledge. He with the other

witnesses declared, and their testimony has accompanied every copy of the

book, that "an angel of God came down from heaven, and brought and laid

before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings

thereon." This declaration he has not varied from in 41 years .... We are

glad to see Martin Harris once more in the midst of the Saints. (Des. News,

Aug. 31, 1870)

During his lifetime, Martin frequently related his unwavering testimony;

and up to the time of his death, he was still actively bearing testimony of

the Book of Mormon.

Brother Martin visited many of the wards, continuing to bear his testimony

both of what he had beheld with his own eyes, and verily knew to be true. He

publicly said that many years ago, in Ohio, a number of persons combined and

sought to get Martin to drink wine for the purpose of crossing him in his

testimony. At the conclusion they asked him if he really believed the

testimony that he had signed in the Book of Mormon to be true. He replied

no, he did not believe it, but, much to their surprise, he said he knew it

to be true!

Soon after receiving his blessings in the house of the Lord, he went to

Smithfield, Cache Valley, and lived with his son until he left this mortal

life. Just before he breathed his last, he sat up in his bed, holding the

Book of Mormon in his hand, and bore his last testimony to those who were

present. <Salt Lake City, November 30, 1881> (The Three Witnesses, by

Preston Nibley, p. 133)

[19] William Homer visited Martin Harris at the time of his death and made

the following statement:

The next day, July 10, 1875, marked the end. It was in the

evening--milking time--and Martin Harris Jr., and his wife, Nancy Homer

Harris, had gone out to milk and do the evening chores. In the house with

the stricken man were left my mother, Eliza Williamson Homer, and myself,

who had had so interesting a day with Martin Harris at Kirtland. I stood by

the bedside holding the patient's right hand and my mother at the foot of

the bed. Martin had been unconscious for a number of days. When we first

entered the room, the old gentleman appeared to be sleeping. He soon woke up

and asked for a drink of water. I put my arm under the old gentleman, raised

him, and my mother held the glass to his lips. He drank freely, and then he

looked up at me and recognized me. He said, "I know you. You are my friend."

He said, "Yes, I did see the plates on which the Book of Mormon was written;

I did see the angel; I did hear the voice of God; and I do know that Joseph

Smith is a Prophet of God, holding the keys of the Holy Priesthood."

This was the end. Martin Harris, divinely chosen witness of the work of

God, relaxed, gave up my hand. He lay back on his pillow, and just as the

sun went down behind the Clarkston mountains, the spirit of Martin Harris

passed on. --Signed, William Harrison Homer. (Imp. Era, March 1926)

Edward Stevenson adds another statement about an interview with Martin

Harris:

At an evening visit of some of my friends at my residence in Salt Lake

City, to see and hear Brother Harris relate his experience (which always

delighted him), Brother James T. Woods, who is now present while I am

writing this article, reminds me that himself and G. D. Keaton were present

on that occasion, and asked him to explain the manner in which the plates

containing the characters of the Book of Mormon were exhibited to the

witnesses. Brother Harris said that the angel stood on the opposite side of

the table on which were the plates, the interpreters, etc., and took the

plates in his hands and turned them over. To more fully illustrate this to

them, Brother Martin took up a book and turned the leaves over one by one.

On the afternoon of his death he was bolstered up in his bed, where, with

the Book of Mormon in his hand, he bore his last testimony to those who were

present. Brother Harris was over ninety years of age at the time of his

death, and had always enjoyed good health. Bishop Rigby, who preached his

funeral sermon, placed the Book of Mormon on his breast, while he lay in his

coffin, and it was buried with him. --Signed, Edward Stevenson. (Mill. Star,

June 21, 1886)

A prayer and final resume of Martin Harris's life and testimony were

published in the Deseret News at the time of his death, including the

following excerpt:

[20] Notwithstanding these great favors shown to this remarkable man he

had, like all of Adam's race, his imperfections. He did not follow up his

brethren in all their persecutions in the states of Missouri and Illinois,

but remained for many years in Ohio; this gave rise to many conjectures that

Mr. Harris had apostatized. But it can truly be said that Mr. Harris never

faltered nor swerved in the least degree from the great testimony given in

the Book of Mormon. (Des. News, July 17, 1875)

Martin Harris and the other two witnesses had their faults and weaknesses.

They may have differed in some of their beliefs, and they did not all return

to the Church, but they never publicly denied their testimony as printed at

the beginning of the Book of Mormon.

Now to answer the first part of Charge No. 5, McKay took this quote from E.

D. Howe's book Mormonism Unveiled:

"I have been acquainted with Martin Harris about thirty years. .... his

moral and religious character was such, as not to entitle him to respect

among his neighbors...." (pp. 260-261)

Howe was a master anti-Mormon. Getting a character reference of Martin

Harris from him would be like asking the Mafia for a character reference of

the Police Department. Talk about one rattlesnake vouching for another!

In spite of his personal weaknesses, Martin Harris was a man of veracity as

a witness to the Book of Mormon. He displayed weakness by continuing to ask

Joseph for the manuscript of 116 pages even after the Lord had forbid it.

However, after losing the manuscript, the Lord later permitted him to assist

in the work.

He contributed much time to the restoration, and gave $3,000 towards

publishing the first edition of the Book of Mormon. When the United Order

was first established, Martin Harris was the first one called of God by name

to set an example before the Church in laying his money before the Bishop.

(see D. & C. 58:35)

In 1835 he assisted in electing, ordaining and instructing the first quorum

of Twelve Apostles in this dispensation. He was active in the Church all the

while the Saints were in Kirtland.

When the Saints moved to Missouri, Martin chose to remain in Ohio. This

display of weakness caused him to become influenced by the Strangites, an

offshoot of the Mormons. However, his venture with them in 1846 didn't last

long.

After residing in Kirtland for many years, he left to emigrate to Salt Lake

City in 1870. His years in Kirtland did not prove "his moral and religious

character was such, as not to entitle him to respect among his neighbors."

[21] An Elder making a visit to New York said:

I found there an aged gentleman, 74 years old, who knew Martin Harris, and

said that he was known in that neighborhood as an honest farmer, having

owned a good farm three miles from that place. (see Mill. Star 44:78)

Martin tells about his relationship with his neighbors in Ohio during an

incident previously referred to in this section:

He <Martin Harris> said that on one occasion several of his old

acquaintances made an effort to get him tipsy by treating him to some wine.

When they thought he was in a good mood for talk, they put the following

question very carefully to him: "Well, now, Martin, we want you to be frank

and candid with us in regard to this story of your seeing an angel and the

golden plates of the Book of Mormon that is so much talked about. We have

always taken you to be an honest, good farmer and neighbor of ours, but

could not believe that you ever did see an angel. <Martin went on to tell

them he did not believe it, he knew it.> (Biographical Encyclopedia, Jensen,

p. 274)

Because Martin visited with other churches in Ohio after becoming a Mormon,

it is an indication of his good moral and religious character. When people

refuse to associate with churches or religion, then there can be justifiable

doubts about their character.

Charge 6. The three witnesses were unreliable, denied their testimony, and

were condemned by those they aided. Their testimony is like "letting one

rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted."

In his article of the three witnesses, Robert McKay tries to set a pattern

for judging the validity of these men at witnesses. He casts doubt upon

their testimony of the Book of Mormon by casting aspersions upon their

character and judgment. By exposing and exaggerating upon their moral and

ethical weaknesses, McKay assumes that their testimony of the Book of Mormon

is such that "they cannot be trusted."

Every crafty lawyer will attempt to discredit the testimony of a person by

attacking their character and by exposing any personal weaknesses or

failings. If a lawyer can destroy, or make the appearance of destroying, the

integrity and character of a person, then he can assume to destroy their

testimony as well. Such lawyers care nothing about validity. Truth is

immaterial to men who are so avid in the defense of their own case. However,

this means of judging is certainly not correct nor wise.

As has been mentioned several times already in this response, in spite of

the human weaknesses evident in each of these three witnesses, they never

did deny their testimonies of the Book of Mormon.

[22] Testimony of Bible Witnesses

If we were to use McKay's method of logic for doubting men's testimonies,

we could apply it to anything else--even the Bible itself. For instance,

let's use this anti-Mormon tactic by applying it to three of the witnesses

of Christ. We will judge the testimonies of John the Baptist, Simon Peter,

and Judas Iscariot by examining the imperfections of their characters as a

means of determining the credibility of their testimonies.

John the Baptist

The first consideration of John the Baptist could be concerning his

background. He was not educated in the "approved" theological schools of his

day. In fact, John was living "in the uninhabited country bordering on

Antipas' realm." He lived like a recluse, even away from the house of

Israel. In the Qumran scrolls there is evidence that the only contact John

had with the outside world was with the Essenes. Most ministers of today

must be students of some Christian seminary to qualify as a minister of

Christ, but not John. How could he qualify as a critic against the great

Pharisees and the Roman empire?

I am sure that if Oliver Cowdery had come out of the wilderness the way

John did, and wore a hairy camel's hide and ate locusts and wild honey, it

could have been used as further ammunition and "evidence" to discredit

Cowdery's testimony. The anti-Mormons would have said he was some kind of a

nut!

The Lord once spoke of John in the following terms:

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a

greater prophet than John the Baptist.... (Luke 7:28)

However, if this would have been said (in a revelation in the Doctrine and

Covenants) about Oliver Cowdery, the anti-Mormons would certainly question

the source of that revelation or else Oliver's abilities as a prophet. There

was not a greater prophet than John the Baptist, yet nowhere in scripture

did he ever make a prophecy!

Continuing further, there is also the question of John's identity. When

John was approached by a party from Jerusalem, he was asked, "What then? Art

thou Elias? And he saith, I am not." (John 1:21) But Jesus was telling

people, "if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

(Matt. 11:14) Didn't John know who he was?

In a very short time John lost confidence in Christ and "hesitated for a

time in his wholehearted support of Jesus's claims for Himself because Jesus

did not appear to be exactly the kind of Messiah he had expected."

(Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, 3:645) John, the first and

foremost witness of Christ, began to doubt his own testimony!

[23] From the Mandean sources of historical works (a sect still existing

today, and who claim their perpetuation from John the Baptist), there is a

recorded rivalry between John and Jesus. They claim that Jesus first came

under the ministry of John, but as Jesus rose in fame and honor, John's

diminished and he supposedly resented it.

Whatever John's feelings were towards Jesus, it appears that he had serious

doubts that Jesus was the Messiah. When John was sent to prison "he sent two

of his disciples, And said unto him (Jesus), Art thou he that should come,

or do we look for another?" (Matt. 11:3) This was John--the one who was

first to herald the announcement of Christ, who was the "forerunner" of the

Messiah, who baptized Jesus and heard the voice of God declaring that Jesus

was the "Only Begotten Son". According to the scriptures, John went to

prison and lo'/st his head still wondering if Jesus was the real Messiah!

Based upon McKay's own method and criteria of determining a valid

testimony, he certainly should not believe in the "witness" called John the

Baptist.

Simon Peter

Simon, or Peter, was another "witness" for Christ and a leader of the

Twelve Apostles. Peter, or "Rock", was the name given to him by Jesus. But

he was "not always stable and reliable as his name implies." He was very

well aware of his own weaknesses and once exclaimed, "Depart from me, for I

am a sinful man, O Lord." (Luke 5:8) The anti-Mormons would say that the

Lord could never use such sinners, but He did--He chose Peter as a chief

apostle.

In the New Testament we read that Jesus spoke to Peter saying: "And I say

also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my

church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:19)

Peter did not prove to be as stable as a rock, nor did the church prove

stable. Within a few hundred years the Church had suffered destruction,

apostasy and a complete departure from its original doctrines. Ignatius, in

his letter to the Romans, affirms that Peter actually held positions in the

Roman Catholic Church before his death. Marcarius of Magnesia states that

Peter was crucified in Rome after being a leader of the church there for

only a few months. The Roman episcopal lists make Peter the first Bishop of

that city. The film Quo Vadis portrays the story of Peter leaving his duties

in the church to save his life, but enroute he had a revelation that said,

"I had a disciple who was imprisoned and was to be put to death. He is

escaped, and is free. l go to die, a second time, for him." Peter cried out,

"Lord, go not; I will return and die!" He went back the next day, and

according to Origen, Peter was crucified upside down.

Regardless of the statements of the apocraphal writers about the apostasy

of the church from the time of Peter, the Protestants began to protest an

apostasy. They denounced the corruptions of the Catholic Church. The church

[24] was shattered into a thousand little pieces, all claiming to be right

and the others all wrong. It doesn't seem right to blame Peter for the mess

the Protestants brought about, but the scriptures said that Peter was given

the responsibility to keep the church from the gates of hell. It is evident

that the gates of hell have swallowed up nearly all of Christianity. Thus,

did Peter fail?

Following the conversion and baptism of Cornelius at Caesarea, Peter had to

return to Jerusalem to answer criticisms for the way he had conducted his

ministry. (see Acts 11:1-18) Paul also reprimanded Peter for the way he

handled his calling in the ministry. Paul said, "But when Peter was come to

Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." (Gal.

2:11) Poor Peter was getting chastised from the Lord, the disciples, and now

even Paul. Consider the following incidents showing that Peter was not

always as solid as a "rock":

1. Jesus told Peter, "Thou savourest not the things that be of God, but

those that be of men." (Matt. 16:23)

2. Jesus upbraided him for being a man "of little faith" and having "doubt".

(Matt. 14:31)

3. At one of the most critical periods in the life of Christ, Peter was

caught sleeping on the job and was chastised for it. (Matt. 26:40, Mark

14:37)

4. Both Mark and Luke mentioned the time of the transfiguration when Peter

carried on a conversation and didn't know what he was talking about. (Mark

9:5; Luke 9:33)

5. At the essential washing of the feet, Peter's impetuousness nearly cost

him his chance of ever remaining with the Savior. (John 13:8)

6. After the crucifixion, Peter apparently left the ministry. He said to the

other disciples, "I go a fishing," which even influenced the others to

follow him. (John 21:3)

7. Three times the Lord had to admonish Peter that if he loved Him, he

should "feed my sheep". (John 21:15-18)

8. Peter was over-confident, and boastful for he said though all men would

deny the Lord, he alone would remain faithful. Jesus said that before the

rising of the sun, he would be offended in Him. (Matt. 26:33-34)

9. Though Peter held the keys of the ministry of Christ, he took up a sword

and cut off a man's ear, for which he was rebuked by the Lord. (Matt. 26:52)

10. The most tragic scene in the life of Peter is when he denied knowing the

Savior. This was verified by all four Gospel writers. (Matt. 26:69-75; Mark

14:66-72; Luke 22:54-62; John 18:25-27)

[25]

11. Peter not only denied knowing Jesus once, but three times! In his third

denial he became so infuriated that he cursed and swore! (Matt. 26:74; Mark

14:71)

12. The most shocking rebuke Peter ever received was towards the end of his

ministry. Jesus "turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan:

thou art an offence unto me...." (Matt. 16:23) What had happened to the

Rock? Had it turned into a Prince of Darkness? When Jesus called Peter a

Satan, that was certainly much worse than Joseph calling Whitmer a dumb ass!

Scholars of the Zondervan Publishing House summarized Peter's weaknesses

best when they stated that his life--

.. . . illustrates, however, the danger of misdirected and superficial

enthusiasm. Some of the sharpest rebukes in the New Testament were directed

at him. His positive traits are inspiring and challenging; his negative

traits are a warning. Enthusiasm and devotion must be tempered by a balanced

and informed perspective. Peter could be overconfident in his enthusiasm, at

time bordering on the arrogance (as in the Upper Room)." (Zondervan

Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible 4:739)

If the Lord would have given a revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants

calling either Cowdery, Whitmer or Harris "Satan", then McKay would have a

more valid argument than the one he proposes. How could McKay ever

acknowledge the testimony of a man the Lord called "Satan"?

Judas Iscariot

There is little doubt that Judas, called Iscariot, became a Christian in

good faith and with good intentions. He aspired, and probably qualified, to

occupy the position of one of the Twelve Apostles--the highest position of

trust among the disciples of Jesus. However, he began to display certain

weaknesses of the flesh. The first incident of his mortal failings is

recorded thus:

Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed

the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was

filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples,

Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, Why was not this

ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (See Matt.

26:6-13; Mark 14:3-10; John 12:1-8)

The Apostle John was very certain in explaining that Judas was not really

interested in caring for the poor, but rather to satisfy his own avarice.

When Judas was complaining about the costly oil to be sold, John wrote:

This he said not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief,

and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. (John 12:6)

[26] According to John, Judas wanted the money turned over to him to give to

the poor, but his intentions were to steal it for himself. Judas was a

thief, and he could and perhaps should have been sent to jail. He was

stealing from all the other disciples and even from Jesus, too! That's worse

than Oliver's supposed bogus money scandle.

Judas became a "thief", yet Jesus did nothing, or at least very little, to

disfellowship or excommunicate the man for his thievery. Jesus was usually

the first to recognize the weaknesses of men and to help them overcome. All

through the New Testament we read of the mercy and forgiving nature of the

Gospel message. Personal weaknesses were tolerable to Christ and forgivable;

but when men turn traitor, they commit wilful, intentional and deliberate

sins, causing trouble or harm to those they once called friends. It was

these unrepentant evils which persisted in Judas that debased him and

resulted in his becoming a traitor. When men expose themselves to the spirit

of unrighteousness, they soon become servant to the master of all

unrighteousness. Judas, like most traitors, became an aspiring spirit,

undoubtedly considering himself better or more intelligent than the other

disciples.

From the scriptures we can ascertain that the plot and execution of

betrayal were ingeniously carried out with minutest detail. It was the

craftiest lawyers, the learned Pharisees, and the wisest sages of the Jews

that tried and failed so many times to trap the Messiah. Not until Judas

performed the act of a traitor was Christ brought into a position to be

murdered.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said:

I am exposed to far greater danger from traitors among ourselves than from

enemies without, although my life has been sought for many years by the

civil and military authorities, priests and people of Missouri; and if I can

escape from the ungrateful treachery of assassins, I can live as Caesar

might have lived, were it not for a right-hand Brutus. I have had pretended

friends betray me. All the enemies upon the face of the earth may roar and

exert all their power to bring about my death, but they can accomplish

nothing, unless some who are among us, who have enjoyed our society, have

been with us in our councils, participated in our confidence, taken us by

the hand, called us brother, saluted us with a kiss, join with our enemies,

turn our virtues into faults, and, by falsehood and deceit, stir up their

wrath and indignation against us, and bring their united vengeance upon our

heads. All the hue and cry of the chief priests and elders against the

Savior could not bring down the wrath of the Jewish nation upon his head,

and thereby cause the crucifixion of the Son of God, until Judas said unto

them: `Whomsoever I shall kiss he is the man; hold him fast.' Judas was one

of the Twelve Apostles, even their treasurer, and dipped with their Master

in the dish, and through his treachery, the crucifixion was brought about;

and we have a Judas in our midst, (Life of Joseph Smith, by George Q.

Cannon, p, 430)

In fact, there always have been Judases in the midst of the Mormons.

[27] Even though Judas was acknowledged to be an Apostle of Christ--a most

high and holy calling--sin overtook him and rather than fulfilling his

calling as an Apostle, he became an adversary. At the Last Supper, Jesus

said, "Ye are not all clean" (John 13:11), because He was aware of how far

Judas had transgressed. Though He washed their feet, He knew their hearts

and He saw filth in the heart of Judas. It would not wash away. The

traitorous character of Judas was not discernable to the other Apostles, but

Jesus knew he would betray Him.

Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders

of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

and consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.

Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief

priests, and said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him

unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from

that time he sought opportunity to betray him. (Matt. 26:3-4, 14-16)

The Scribes and Pharisees were eager to take advantage of the offer by

Judas. "And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him

money." (Mark 14:11) If greed for money was the reason that Judas acted the

traitor in the betrayal, it was a most paltry sum, for Judas sold Christ for

the price of a slave. (Ex. 21:32) So, "they took the thirty pieces of

silver, the price of him that was valued." (Matt. 27:9) In our money, this

is about $18.00.

Judas was aptly described by Christ as "a devil" (John 6:70), and also a

"son of perdition" (John 17:12). These two names were the worst possible

titles that Christ could put upon a mortal being.

The Gospel writers and the apostles also referred to him as, "Judas

Iscariot, which also was the traitor...." (Luke 6:16) The appellation was

earned and well attached to Judas, for it was his most famous act. Betrayal

or traitorous acts are all solemn and saddening. Those who forsake or turn

against their family leave broken hearts; those who betray the confidence of

an organization prove to be unworthy of trust by any other company; and he

that betrays or acts as traitor to his country is often worthy of death. But

the sin of betrayal to God is more serious, more terrible and worse in the

final judgment than man has conceived of.

Within the character of Judas we have an Apostle, or witness, of Jesus

Christ. Also within this person is a thief, a traitor, a liar, a betrayer

and a man who initiated the death of the Savior. However, the fact that he

had been a thief and worse during his ministry did not negate his work or

testimony of Christ. His early ministry was performed with good intention,

in faith and with certain testimony. His acts of sin were done in the hour

of temptation. His failure as an Apostle did not destroy his work of the

ministry--it only destroyed himself.

Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer also had their personal

weaknesses, but they never turned traitor to their testimony, nor did they

ever deny or betray Christ.

[28] CONCLUSION

To reiterate then, McKay makes this observation concerning the three

witnesses to the Book of Mormon:

The Mormon Church claims that these three men were sober, steady

individuals who would not lie, who could not be easily fooled, and whose

word was reliable. The facts are otherwise. Rather than being unimpeachable,

these witnesses and their testimony are worthless in determining the truth

about the Book of Mormon.

Yet, on the other hand, McKay would want you to believe that John the

Baptist and Simon Peter were "sober, steady individuals who would not lie,

who could not be easily fooled, and whose word was reliable." The facts are

otherwise. Using the same criteria, these witnesses and their testimony,

(according to McKay's reasoning) are worthless in determining the truth

about Christ and the Bible.

McKay, who was once a Mormon himself, summarizes his article by saying:

Thus we see that the testimony of Three Witnesses was signed by men who

were unreliable, who denied their testimony, and who were condemned by those

they aided. To hold these three men and their testimony up to the world as

proof that the Book of Mormon is of God is analogous to letting one

rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted.

According to the assumptions made by Robert McKay, one would probably

consider the witnesses of Christ to be "unreliable, who denied their

testimony, and who were condemned by those they aided." Shall we also say

that "to hold these three men and their testimony up to the world as proof"

that the Bible is of God, would be "analogous to letting one rattlesnake

vouch for another?"

If Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer, who once claimed membership in the L.D.S.

Church, but left it and thus became "unreliable and who denied their

testimony," were to be likened to rattlesnakes, then let us include all the

other Mormon apostates who became anti-Mormon writers. But since there are

so many variations and kinds of Mormon apostates, they can't all be

classified as rattlesnakes--we should brand them as Cobras, Cottonmouths,

Diamondbacks and Sidewinders!

But these three witnesses of Christ--John, Peter and Judas--also displayed

weaknesses and faults in their characters, just as did Oliver, Martin and

David.

Consider these three witnesses of Christ--John died with a message of doubt

about the identity of Christ. Peter denied knowing Jesus just before His

crucifixion, and Judas died right after betraying Christ.

[29] On the other hand, consider the three witnesses of the Book of

Mormon--all three on their deathbed bore testimony to their witness of the

Book of Mormon plates and the angel who showed them.

But as the personal weaknesses of the witnesses of Christ did not

invalidate their testimony of Christ, neither did the personal weaknesses of

the witnesses of the Book of Mormon invalidate their testimony of the Book

of Mormon.

If men "cannot be trusted" who lived about two hundred years ago because

they exhibited weaknesses and failings, then men who lived 2000 years ago

"cannot be trusted" because they displayed similar weaknesses.

If McKay scorns the testimony of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon

because of frailties in their character, he should consider in the same

light these other three witnesses of Christ and their frailties. On this

basis, how could Robert McKay ever swallow the story of Christianity?

It seems so strange to me that the anti-Mormons can be so zealous in

discovering any discrepancy, error or human weakness in the background of

the Latter-day Saints, yet they can gloss over the same things in the Bible!

Is this an occasion where they see a sliver in another's eye, but miss the

beam in their own?

But, did the testimony of these witnesses of the Book of Mormon as well as

the witnesses of Christ become invalid because of personal failings?

Absolutely not! God has no one but imperfect beings to work with, and His

mercy extends beyond the meager limits so often set by mortal men. Too often

men misjudge the things of God by their condemnation of the men who bear

that message. Oliver Cowdery perhaps said it best:

But in reviewing the lives and acts of men in past generations, whenever

we find a righteous man among them, there always were excuses for not giving

heed or credence to his testimony. The people could see his imperfections;

or, if no imperfections, supposed ones, and were always ready to frame an

excuse upon that for not believing. No matter how pure the principles, nor

how precious the teachings--an excuse was wanted, and an excuse was had.

One of two reasons may be assigned as the cause why the messengers of

truth have been rejected--perhaps both. The multitude saw their

imperfections, or supposed ones, and from that framed an excuse for

rejecting them; or else in consequence of the corruption of their own

hearts, when reproved, were not willing to repent but sought to make a man

an offender for a word, or for wearing camels' hair, eating locusts,

drinking wine, or showing friendship to publicans and sinners!

When looking over the sacred scriptures, we seem to forget that they were

given through men of imperfections and subject to passions. It is a general

belief that the ancient prophets were [30] perfect--that no stain or blemish

ever appeared upon their characters while on earth, to be brought forward by

the opposer as an excuse for not believing. And that even our Saviour,

the great shepherd of Israel, was mocked and derided, and placed on a

parallel with the prince of devils; and the prophets and apostles, though at

this day looked upon as perfect as perfection, were considered the basest of

the human family by those among whom they lived. (Letters by Oliver Cowdery

to W. W. Phelps, pp. 12-14)

Good men, wayward men, and bad men all may give a true testimony. On one

occasion even the devils bore testimony of Jesus. When Jesus came into the

country of the Gergesenes, he met "two possessed with devils", who spoke to

him and cried, "What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God?," and

asked to be cast into a herd of swine. (Matt. 8:28-31)

If good men, bad men, and devils alike confess the truth, we should be

willing to acknowledge it. John, Peter, Judas, Oliver, Martin and David all

bore valid testimonies, even though they displayed the frailties of mortal

men. The Mormons, more than anyone else, know the honor and calling of John

the Baptist even after his death. Oliver Cowdery's last breath of life was a

testament of seeing John the Baptist in glory. Peter's burst of denial was

not said in sincerity but in grief. As evidence that the Lord made no issue

of it, Peter was the first man to witness the resurrection of Christ. Judas

was a witness of the miracles of Christ and stood by Him during most of His

ministry, but he became an apostate who opposed what he once professed as

true. Let his life be a warning to those who become traitors to their faith.

How many Latter-day Saints have become traitors to their faith, acting as

Judas by writing and preaching against Mormonism and selling their betrayal

for pieces of silver?

Christians should be engaged in doing good, promoting the doctrines of

Christ, and administering to the needs of others. The real Gospel of Christ

is not negative, as anti-Mormon literature demonstrates, but its message

aims high, exalts men, and proclaims freedom and truth.

One Mormon beautifully describes true Christianity and Priesthood:

This, then, is true priesthood--to be images of the living God, exhibiting

in our characteristics His brightness and His strength; to be girt and

endowed with the purity of His nature; to be insullied in heart and mind; to

stand by the strength of redeeming, saving qualities; to bless, and bless,

and bless again, notwithstanding ingratitude in some--building, sustaining,

and protecting all the time; to fight all spirits of division and all

principles of death; to help the weak, the downtrodden, and the helpless,

till helping becomes our natural food, working on all principles that yield

nourishment, support, and strength--till our very presence is as the sun,

cheering and blessing all. So shall God increase within us, refreshing our

own spirits, and watering all around, and the characteristics of the Holy

Priesthood will grow out from us like the branches of a fruitful tree that

yield shelter, shield, and fruit. (Mill. Star 20:641-644)

[31] We are grateful to the men who were witnesses of Christ and those who

were witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Understanding both their frailties and

testimony helps us overcome our own weaknesses and failings. The tolerant

mercy we extend to others, we hope the Lord will extend to us. It is a great

consolation to know the mercy and kindness of God towards weak fallible

mortals. And how loving He is to continue to work with and for us in spite

of so many failings. In that hope and faith we anticipate the day when we

shall see and hear for ourselves the testimony of many others besides those

"Three Witnesses" in the Kingdom of God.

>> Did you know that there are books of prophets mentioned in the Bible but

>> are not included?

>

> If you mean "prophets" as in any-old-prophet, of course, and those who

> formed the canon of scripture have rejected those things as not being

> inspired by God and thus not of God. And no, they didn't just cast lots

> or look through magic fairy glasses or consult the dead and demons to

> determine what book made the list or not.

>

> The revealed word of God is not a landfill where any joker who calls

> himself a prophet can stash his personal opinions and wild

> prognostications into. Mohammed came along and performed even more

> realistic prophetic junk than Joe and there is no one on this planet who

> seriously believes that these "prophets" should have any of their works

> enshrined in the canon of Scripture. That is why they get to have their

> own books, just like any other fiction writer.

Joseph Smith said scripture can be technically any words inspired by the

Holy Spirit. Sectarians like you like to refer to the writings of Paul in

the NT so much but I wonder what lost of words you would have suffered if

you lived in a time just before he wrote his epistles. You have to get

revelation from God and stop making up your own doctrine. Joseph Smith and

Paul said the same thing. The former said, "Opinion without revelation is no

authority." And the latter said no man knows the things of God but by the

Spirit of God. You do not rely on the Spirit because you not think the

Spirit is even offered by God anymore. It's okay to pray to God but it's

loco if He answers back, is that it?

>> 29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not

>> written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah

>> the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the bseer against Jeroboam the

>> son of Nebat?

>> 2 Chronicles 9:29

>

> That any many other claims are used to justify why the Bible is actually a

> landfill. Because these books allegedly abound, they by their mere

> presence are entitled to be included and considered as Holy Writ. This

> is a fundamental tenet of Gnosticism and Mysticism. That there is this

> body of works that have the authority of Scripture but for some odd reason

> weren't included. Therefore if someone "finds" one of these documents, it

> curiously also seems to perfectly correlate with whatever sin-filled

> depraved idea or "doctrine" they want to be accepted. I'm sure that some

> day, if not already, some Sodomites will dig up some prophetic book and

> find in the "translation" somewhere that fudge packers are ranked

> somewhere above men and angels and just a little lower than God Almighty.

>

> So the Bible isn't just this huge library of text from that region. Here

> is why: The Bible isn't about "the acts of Solomon" or the visions of

> "Iddo" who is speculated to be the author of genealogies (which I'm sure

> excites your crowd), commentary and "visions against Jeroboam". It is

> about Jesus Christ. The genealogies are in the Bible so that we can see

> the line from Adam to Christ and from King David to Christ. That is why

> we don't have every branch of every person that isn't related to Christ in

> Scriptures. If you are geeked up about the acts of Solomon not mentioned

> in the Bible or the visions against Jeroboam are what gets your attention,

> then go down to your local library and see if someone dug up these tomes

> and translated them for you.

>

> <snipped demonic dreck since YOU should know that only folks like you

> care>

>> (Book of Mormon| 2 Nephi 29:3-11)

>

> Joe has no bona fides. His claims are self authenticating, IOW he grades

> his own tests and we are expected to believe every word he utters because

> that is all he has to support his claims. His history shows that even as

> a child he made money as a carnival act huckster "seer" and he carried

> that exact same carnival stunt into adulthood and build a religion around

> it. His act belongs alongside the Bearded Lady and the Rubber Man. HIs

> stories are as authentic and as provable as any one of a number of urban

> legends.

>

> No one bothers to ask why Jesus Christ would come to the Americas.

Jesus said in John 10:16, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this

fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall

be one fold, and one shepherd." Who did He mean by other sheep? He was

referring to the Nephites in the Americas:

13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath

given it unto you.

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should

tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should

tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the

Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must

bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one

shepherd.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my

word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this

thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I

tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their

iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of

you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father

separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not

of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep

I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall

hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles;

for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their

preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and

they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my

voice-that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy

Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard amy voice, and seen me; and ye are my

sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

3 Nephi 15:13-24

> No one bothers to ask why this alleged angel Moroni (or Nephi, depending

> on whether you believe Joe Smith's autobiography or latter day historical

> revisionists) would come to Joe when there is no similar angel in all of

> Biblical history.

>

> I mean, look at Scripture, whenever an angel came by, the person they

> approached fell prostrate in fear. That is why the first words uttered

> by angels was often "Fear Not" - those words just weren't a standard

> cultural salutation like today's "Hi, how are you?" They said those words

> because the people they stood before trembled in mortal fear. By

> Joseph's own words, he wasn't scared or intimidated by the angel to the

> point where the angel (whoever you guys think he/she was) had to make

> threats of calling down "wrath from heaven" just to get him to stay awake

> and pay attention.

>

> There are so many bogus allegations made, so many inconsistencies, so many

> differences from established patterns and practices that you have to be a

> persistent fool to ignore the mountain of evidence screaming that Joe

> Smith was an opportunist of the like of PT Barnum and Robert Tilton.

>

> Master the Holy Bible first. Then if you have exahusted all that there

> is you need to know from that, then consider looking at Joe's works.

> If you are honest and sincere, you will find, like the millions of those

> have preceded you, that a lifetime is still not enough time to absorb the

> things of God found in his Original Revealed Word.

>

>

>

--

http://www.artbulla.com

Listen to Zion Redemption Radio hosted by Art Bulla and Aaron Kim on Sunday

from 3 to 4 (pst). Just go to

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?host_id=3513 All are invited to

call in live, email at art@artbulla.com, or by MSM artbulla@hotmail.com.

This show is dedicated to the redemption of Zion, revelations of Jesus

Christ, authority, Priesthood, Kingdom of God, doctrine discussed pertaining

to the salvation of Ephraim and Manasseh. During non broadcast hours you can

also listen to archived shows.

My Testimony of a Living Prophet:

http://www.artbulla.com/zion/Aaron's%20Page.html

26 Even so, come unto me and learn of my ways, and I will give unto you,

even as many as shall come, that peace which surpasseth understanding, and

if ye shall inquire of me concerning these things, will I the Lord manifest

by the influence and power of the Holy Ghost that these things are verily

true and are of me, saith the Lord.

Revelations of Jesus Christ sec. 6:26

Aaron Kim

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:18:33 -0700, Aaron Kim wrote:

> I forgot to add this to my previous reply

That you're a loony?

--

Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423

EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion

------------------------------------------------------------

"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys

on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING

like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton

I'll give you credit on one thing. At least you and your motley crew are

consistent. It's these sectarians who disguise themselves as ministers of

light who are hard to tell from the false ones. But if you really want

freedom from religion as you atheists want, you should move to Red China.

"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message

news:2cOdnVCGjZjAT2PbnZ2dnUVZ_trinZ2d@giganews.com...

> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:18:33 -0700, Aaron Kim wrote:

>

>> I forgot to add this to my previous reply

>

> That you're a loony?

>

> --

> Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423

> EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys

> on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING

> like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:40:28 -0700, Aaron Kim wrote:

> I'll give you credit on one thing. At least you and your motley crew are

> consistent. It's these sectarians who disguise themselves as ministers

> of light who are hard to tell from the false ones. But if you really

> want freedom from religion as you atheists want, you should move to Red

> China.

Oh here comes the atheists are commies canard.

(You are really, really out of date you know? Communism collapsed years

ago. And if China is anything, they're state capitalists.)

Anyway, cross posting religious dreck into alt.atheism isn't very bright

and certainly you're not qualified to lecture anybody about... well...

much of anything...

--

Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423

EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion

------------------------------------------------------------

"You know what my favorite thing in the world is?

I'll tell you.

Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American

citizens put on expensive dress clothes, load themselves into

suv's and drive past homeless shelters, orphanages, prisons,

missions and halfway houses on their way to a very expensive

and nice church, where someone tells them to be more like Jesus.

That is fucking awesome, let me tell you."

http://tinyurl.com/2uglqf

In article <5m82j1Fc3415U1@mid.individual.net>, Aaron Kim says...

>

>I'll give you credit on one thing. At least you and your motley crew are

>consistent. It's these sectarians who disguise themselves as ministers of

>light who are hard to tell from the false ones. But if you really want

>freedom from religion as you atheists want, you should move to Red China.

The Chinese government restricts what it considers

to be religious cults, not all religion.

There is no case for accurately characterizing the

Chinese government as one bent on imposing atheism

-- in terms of sheer numbers, I would bet there is

more religious activity in China than in the United States.

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:40:28 -0700, "Aaron Kim" <aaron@artbulla.com>

wrote:

>I'll give you credit on one thing. At least you and your motley crew are

>consistent. It's these sectarians who disguise themselves as ministers of

>light who are hard to tell from the false ones. But if you really want

>freedom from religion as you atheists want, you should move to Red China.

Fine. And if you want to live in a theocracy, move to Iran.

---

"Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to skyscrapers..."

"mg" <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1191250114.812250.205320@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> On Sep 29, 4:18 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> . . .

>>

>> I forgot to add this to my previous reply of the same post. Jesus said

>> "...

>> in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

>> (Matt. 18:16)

> . . .

>

> If there's one thing all religions seem to have in common, it's

> witnesses. There's always witnesses all over the place. I had a Bahai

> once tell me something about thousands of witness seeing the ascension

> of their prophet. Sometimes religions have witnesses for the

> witnesses. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't cases when there

> are witnesses for the witnesses for the witnesses.

vERY CONVENIENT THAT THESE WITNESSES DIED THOUSANDS

OF YEARS AGO!

On Sep 29, 4:18 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:

.. . .

>

> I forgot to add this to my previous reply of the same post. Jesus said "...

> in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

> (Matt. 18:16)

.. . .

If there's one thing all religions seem to have in common, it's

witnesses. There's always witnesses all over the place. I had a Bahai

once tell me something about thousands of witness seeing the ascension

of their prophet. Sometimes religions have witnesses for the

witnesses. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't cases when there

are witnesses for the witnesses for the witnesses.

Joseph Smith's true believers seem to be particularly crafty in

employing the witness con game. I suspect that's probably because of

the unique problems they have with the inconvenient facts provided by

DNA evidence, archaeology, and evolution, etc. that show that it's all

nonsense.

mg wrote:

> On Sep 29, 4:18 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> . . .

>> I forgot to add this to my previous reply of the same post. Jesus said "...

>> in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

>> (Matt. 18:16)

> . . .

>

> If there's one thing all religions seem to have in common, it's

> witnesses. There's always witnesses all over the place. I had a Bahai

> once tell me something about thousands of witness seeing the ascension

> of their prophet. Sometimes religions have witnesses for the

> witnesses. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't cases when there

> are witnesses for the witnesses for the witnesses.

>

> Joseph Smith's true believers seem to be particularly crafty in

> employing the witness con game. I suspect that's probably because of

> the unique problems they have with the inconvenient facts provided by

> DNA evidence, archaeology, and evolution, etc. that show that it's all

> nonsense.

Hearing about something from a 'witness' doesn't necessarily mean

anything at all. One can only know 'truth' for one's self.

Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

and guidance, after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

document, which they, these ingrates benefit from. Red China has no such

scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved, a

product of their scientific atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their

fruits ye shall know them.

--

Website: http://www.artbulla.com

5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the

truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written

save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath

redeemed my soul from hell.

(2 Nephi 33:5 - 6)

26 And ye have murmured because he hath been plain unto you. Ye say that

he hath used sharpness; ye say that he hath been angry with you; but behold,

his sharpness was the sharpness of the power of the word of God, which was

in him; and that which ye call anger was the truth, according to that which

is in God, which he could not restrain, manifesting boldly concerning your

iniquities.

27 And it must needs be that the power of God must be with him, even unto

his commanding you that ye must obey. But behold, it was not he, but it was

the Spirit of the Lord which was in him, which opened his mouth to utterance

that he could not shut it.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 1:26 - 27)

"What Joseph meant by being damned was that people will go into the spirit

world without the Priesthood, and consequently they are under the power of

Satan, and will have to be redeemed, or else they will be forever under his

power. That is all there is about that."

(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 17:, p.159)

"I am like a huge rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the

only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in

contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against

religious bigotry, priestcraft, lawyer-craft, doctor-craft, lying editors,

suborned judges and jurors, and the authority of perjured executives, backed

by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and women, all hell

knocking off a corner here and a corner there. Thus will I become a smooth

and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty." (Teachings of the

Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 304.)

"I just tell em the truth, and they think it's hell." Harry Truman

THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS:

Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.

"Nothing has more retarded the advancement of learning than the disposition

of vulgar minds to ridicule and vilify what they do not understand."

Dr.Samuel Johnson.

The Revelations of Jesus Christ:

<http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-28287-3>

Discourses of Brigham Young, Pg.68

As it has always been, and will be yet for some time, when the sons

of God assemble together Satan will be on hand as an accuser of the

brethren, to find fault with those who are trying to do good.

"But we ask, does it remain for a people who never had faith enough to call

down one scrap of revelation from heaven, and for all they have now are

indebted

to the faith of another people...does it remain for them to say how much God

has

spoken and how much He has not spoken?" Joseph Smith

"Every generation has flattered itself that it is a little better than the

one that preceded it. Every generation has prided itself in its knowledge

and great advancement in the arts and sciences and its superiority over

preceding generations; yet the power of the adversary and his hatred of

righteousness and truth are as great to-day as they ever were since the

creation of the earth." Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, Pg.228 - Pg.229,

George Q. Cannon, May 6, 1866

"Some men are natural born saints; whenever a principle is advanced they

understand it, and drink it in; while there are others who do not

understand and oppose every principle that is not clear to their mind. This

can be accounted for, that we are not all pure blooded, for Ephraim became

foolish and mixed up with the gentiles. When we find the pure blood of

Ephraim, we find a natural born child of God and there is nothing in the

gospel that is objectionable to them, but the others have to exercise faith

in God and humble themselves before Him and live for it." (Deseret Weekly,

50:250-251)

"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message

news:2cOdnUiGjZgwRGPbnZ2dnUVZ_trinZ2d@giganews.com...

> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:40:28 -0700, Aaron Kim wrote:

>

>> I'll give you credit on one thing. At least you and your motley crew are

>> consistent. It's these sectarians who disguise themselves as ministers

>> of light who are hard to tell from the false ones. But if you really

>> want freedom from religion as you atheists want, you should move to Red

>> China.

>

> Oh here comes the atheists are commies canard.

>

> (You are really, really out of date you know? Communism collapsed years

> ago. And if China is anything, they're state capitalists.)

>

> Anyway, cross posting religious dreck into alt.atheism isn't very bright

> and certainly you're not qualified to lecture anybody about... well...

> much of anything...

>

> --

> Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423

> EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> "You know what my favorite thing in the world is?

> I'll tell you.

> Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American

> citizens put on expensive dress clothes, load themselves into

> suv's and drive past homeless shelters, orphanages, prisons,

> missions and halfway houses on their way to a very expensive

> and nice church, where someone tells them to be more like Jesus.

> That is fucking awesome, let me tell you."

>

> http://tinyurl.com/2uglqf

On Oct 1, 11:20 am, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

> in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

> period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

> in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

> and guidance, after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

> document, which they, these ingrates benefit from. Red China has no such

> scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved,

Funny, Tiannanmen Square (I'm sure my spelling is as bad as yours)

reminded me A LOT of Kent State. That happened in the US, didn't it?

Oh yeah, I don't benefit from the American constitution, since I'm not

American. Do you think atheists only live in the US?

> a

> product of their scientific atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their

> fruits ye shall know them.

So stop using your computer already, or do you think that is a product

of scientific theism?

On Oct 1, 2:20 pm, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

> in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

> period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

> in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

> and guidance,

The prayer never happened, shitwit. The members of the Constitutional

Convention refused to vote a honorarium for the Chaplain.

> after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

> document, which they, these ingrates benefit from.

The constitution permitted slavery and forbade any discussion of it

for 20 years. Was that God's work, too?

> Red China has no such

> scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved, a

> product of their scientific atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their

> fruits ye shall know them.

Yeah, they were almost as bad a Bull Connor. The Chinese, however,

never reverted to firehoses.

By the way, I've known quite a few Mormons. They were all assholes.

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:02:10 -0700, Wexford <wryan77@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Oct 1, 2:20 pm, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

>> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

>> in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

>> period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

>> in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

>> and guidance,

>

>The prayer never happened, shitwit. The members of the Constitutional

>Convention refused to vote a honorarium for the Chaplain.

>

>> after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

>> document, which they, these ingrates benefit from.

>

>The constitution permitted slavery and forbade any discussion of it

>for 20 years. Was that God's work, too?

>

>> Red China has no such

>> scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved, a

>> product of their scientific atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their

>> fruits ye shall know them.

>

>Yeah, they were almost as bad a Bull Connor. The Chinese, however,

>never reverted to firehoses.

On the whole, I think I'd prefer fire hoses to tanks.

>By the way, I've known quite a few Mormons. They were all assholes.

---

"Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to skyscrapers..."

In article <1191265201.250764.72650@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Neil

Kelsey <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 1, 11:20 am, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> > Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

> > in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

> > period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

> > in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

> > and guidance, after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

> > document, which they, these ingrates benefit from. Red China has no such

> > scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved,

>

> Funny, Tiannanmen Square (I'm sure my spelling is as bad as yours)

> reminded me A LOT of Kent State. ... ...

>

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:20:43 -0700, Art Bulla wrote:

> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by

> believers in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who

> insisted, after a period of confusion and lack of progress, that the

> Constitutional Convention in Philedelphia humble themselves before God

> and implore Him for revelation and guidance, after which they framed the

> Constitution, it being an inspired document, which they, these ingrates

> benefit from. Red China has no such scruples. Hence their government

> is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved, a product of their scientific

> atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Yeah except the actual writings of the Founders shows they got their

ideas from British common law, Greco-Roman (you know, "pagan") history,

and American Natives.

For all your silly yap, you people can't produce anything in those

goofy bibles and other silly writings on which can be based a federalized

democratic republic with individual liberties.

Not.

One.

Thing.

--

Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423

EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion

------------------------------------------------------------

"You know what my favorite thing in the world is?

I'll tell you.

Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American

citizens put on expensive dress clothes, load themselves into

suv's and drive past homeless shelters, orphanages, prisons,

missions and halfway houses on their way to a very expensive

and nice church, where someone tells them to be more like Jesus.

That is fucking awesome, let me tell you."

http://tinyurl.com/2uglqf

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:02:10 -0700, Wexford wrote:

> On Oct 1, 2:20 pm, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

>> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by

>> believers in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who

>> insisted, after a period of confusion and lack of progress, that the

>> Constitutional Convention in Philedelphia humble themselves before God

>> and implore Him for revelation and guidance,

>

> The prayer never happened, shitwit. The members of the Constitutional

> Convention refused to vote a honorarium for the Chaplain.

>

>> after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

>> document, which they, these ingrates benefit from.

>

> The constitution permitted slavery and forbade any discussion of it for

> 20 years. Was that God's work, too?

Well, the bible does sanction slavery...

--

Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423

EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion

------------------------------------------------------------

"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a

way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna

live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else

pours dirt in their holes.

"Climb out of your holes people!"

- Dr. House, on faith

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:34:48 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"

<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:20:43 -0700, Art Bulla wrote:

>

>> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by

>> believers in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who

Liar.

>> insisted, after a period of confusion and lack of progress, that the

>> Constitutional Convention in Philedelphia humble themselves before God

Liar.

>> and implore Him for revelation and guidance, after which they framed the

Liar.

>> Constitution, it being an inspired document, which they, these ingrates

>> benefit from.

Liar.

> Red China has no such scruples. Hence their government

>> is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved, a product of their scientific

>> atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Hitler was a Christian, in-denial liar, subset Catholic. The German

people who accepted his justification and motivation, and carried out

his orders were Christian as well, subsets Catholic and Lutheran.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

Why do you in-our-face nasty, bigoted liars imagine that the having

the prime motivator that causes your appalling behaviour to not just

atheists but also Mormons who aren't as fanatically extreme as you

are, leads to anything?

>Yeah except the actual writings of the Founders shows they got their

>ideas from British common law, Greco-Roman (you know, "pagan") history,

>and American Natives.

British common law is based on Anglo-Saxon (pre-Christian) and Norse

(pre-Christian).

>For all your silly yap, you people can't produce anything in those

>goofy bibles and other silly writings on which can be based a federalized

>democratic republic with individual liberties.

They claim their religion makes them better than everybody else. But

their own actions give this the lie.

>Not.

>

>One.

>

>Thing.

Nope.

In article <5mcs41Fcqn5aU1@mid.individual.net>, Art Bulla says...

>

>Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

>in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

>period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

>in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

>and guidance, after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

>document...

God told them to start a country that vigorously encourages completely ignoring

the First Commandment?

On Oct 1, 5:12 pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:02:10 -0700, Wexford <wrya...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >On Oct 1, 2:20 pm, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> >> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

> >> in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

> >> period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

> >> in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

> >> and guidance,

>

> >The prayer never happened, shitwit. The members of the Constitutional

> >Convention refused to vote a honorarium for the Chaplain.

>

> >> after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

> >> document, which they, these ingrates benefit from.

>

> >The constitution permitted slavery and forbade any discussion of it

> >for 20 years. Was that God's work, too?

>

> >> Red China has no such

> >> scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved, a

> >> product of their scientific atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their

> >> fruits ye shall know them.

>

> >Yeah, they were almost as bad a Bull Connor. The Chinese, however,

> >never reverted to firehoses.

>

> On the whole, I think I'd prefer fire hoses to tanks.

I don't disagree, but if you'll remember, Faubus called up the

National Guard to prevent the integration of Little Rock High School.

If they had had a tank, it would have been there. I'm not arguing that

the old bastard Communists who run China are any moral equivalent of

any politicians in the United States, just that we're damn imperfect,

too. To put it in Christian terms, it's best to be sure you're without

sin before you cast the first stone. As far as tyrants go, the current

collection of thugs who run China are pikers. Now, Mao was tyrant!

Although Mao's connetion to "socialism" was in name only.

In article <fds8oq0oij@drn.newsguy.com>, Trucking Genius

<Trucking_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

> In article <5mcs41Fcqn5aU1@mid.individual.net>, Art Bulla says...

> >

> >Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by believers

> >in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after a

> >period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional Convention

> >in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for revelation

> >and guidance, after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

> >document...

>

> God told them to start a country that vigorously encourages completely

ignoring

> the First Commandment?

In article <1191292164.310977.73840@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, Wexford

<wryan77@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 1, 5:12 pm, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:

> > On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:02:10 -0700, Wexford <wrya...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > >On Oct 1, 2:20 pm, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> > >> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by

believers

> > >> in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted,

after a

> > >> period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional

Convention

> > >> in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for

revelation

> > >> and guidance,

> >

> > >The prayer never happened, shitwit. The members of the Constitutional

> > >Convention refused to vote a honorarium for the Chaplain.

> >

> > >> after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

> > >> document, which they, these ingrates benefit from.

> >

> > >The constitution permitted slavery and forbade any discussion of it

> > >for 20 years. Was that God's work, too?

> >

> > >> Red China has no such

> > >> scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square

proved, a

> > >> product of their scientific atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their

> > >> fruits ye shall know them.

> >

> > >Yeah, they were almost as bad a Bull Connor. The Chinese, however,

> > >never reverted to firehoses.

> >

> > On the whole, I think I'd prefer fire hoses to tanks.

>

> I don't disagree, but if you'll remember, Faubus called up the

> National Guard to prevent the integration of Little Rock High School.

> If they had had a tank, it would have been there. I'm not arguing that

> the old bastard Communists who run China are any moral equivalent of

> any politicians in the United States, just that we're damn imperfect,

> too. To put it in Christian terms, it's best to be sure you're without

> sin before you cast the first stone. As far as tyrants go, the current

> collection of thugs who run China are pikers. Now, Mao was tyrant!

> ...

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:07:40 +0100, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>

wrote:

>

>"mg" <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>news:1191250114.812250.205320@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>> On Sep 29, 4:18 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:

>> . . .

>>>

>>> I forgot to add this to my previous reply of the same post. Jesus said

>>> "...

>>> in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

>>> (Matt. 18:16)

>> . . .

>>

>> If there's one thing all religions seem to have in common, it's

>> witnesses. There's always witnesses all over the place. I had a Bahai

>> once tell me something about thousands of witness seeing the ascension

>> of their prophet. Sometimes religions have witnesses for the

>> witnesses. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't cases when there

>> are witnesses for the witnesses for the witnesses.

>

>vERY CONVENIENT THAT THESE WITNESSES DIED THOUSANDS

>OF YEARS AGO!

>

Even the "witnesses" to the bom are questionable. There is

controversy over whether they ever WERE witnesses to the existance of

the plates (some said they "saw" them with "spiritual eyes" instead of

their physical eyes, later on), and NONE ever "translated" anything

that was ON said plates to determine if what joseph smith claimed was

on them actually was on them.

The ONLY "witness" to any of the "text" of the bom is joseph smith.

NOBODY ELSE has ever "translated" those "plates."

in the Name of Jesus,

Checker

In article <pve4g31qm28cq7aqacm3lr3d55fugis5a4@4ax.com>,

checker@flapper.com wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:07:40 +0100, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >"mg" <mgkelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> >news:1191250114.812250.205320@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> >> On Sep 29, 4:18 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:

> >> . . .

> >>>

> >>> I forgot to add this to my previous reply of the same post. Jesus said

> >>> "...

> >>> in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

> >>> (Matt. 18:16)

> >> . . .

> >>

> >> If there's one thing all religions seem to have in common, it's

> >> witnesses. There's always witnesses all over the place. I had a Bahai

> >> once tell me something about thousands of witness seeing the ascension

> >> of their prophet. Sometimes religions have witnesses for the

> >> witnesses. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't cases when there

> >> are witnesses for the witnesses for the witnesses.

> >

> >vERY CONVENIENT THAT THESE WITNESSES DIED THOUSANDS

> >OF YEARS AGO!

> >

> Even the "witnesses" to the bom are questionable. ...

"Wexford" <wryan77@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1191265330.448295.206420@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

> On Oct 1, 2:20 pm, "Art Bulla" <a...@artbulla.com> wrote:

>> Aaron, these atheists are piggy-backing on the foundation laid by

>> believers

>> in God: i.e. George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin who insisted, after

>> a

>> period of confusion and lack of progress, that the Constitutional

>> Convention

>> in Philedelphia humble themselves before God and implore Him for

>> revelation

>> and guidance,

>

> The prayer never happened, shitwit. The members of the Constitutional

> Convention refused to vote a honorarium for the Chaplain.

>

>> after which they framed the Constitution, it being an inspired

>> document, which they, these ingrates benefit from.

>

> The constitution permitted slavery and forbade any discussion of it

> for 20 years. Was that God's work, too?

>

>> Red China has no such

>> scruples. Hence their government is tyranny and Tienamen Square proved,

>> a

>> product of their scientific atheism, as was Stalin, and Hitler. By their

>> fruits ye shall know them.

>

> Yeah, they were almost as bad a Bull Connor. The Chinese, however,

> never reverted to firehoses.

>

> By the way, I've known quite a few Mormons. They were all assholes.

You should move to Venezuela along with other people of your stripe like

Danny Glover and Kevin Spacey.