So I guess the law doesn't apply to the Bush administration...

[Crazywumbat]

While redefining the definitions of torture set in the Geneva convention seemed awful enough, and while Congress actually passing that bill was pretty damn outrageous, what REALLY takes the cake is that burried in that bill is a clause that will pardon ALL members of the Bush administration for ANY war crime preosecutions resulting from the treatment of detainees. How the **** is that justified?

I see post after post on this forum from the conservative community calling for the public execution of a school teacher for burning a flag. Claiming that every person who doesn't automatically agree that America is the be-all, end-all, greatest country in the world should be murdered. Saying that people who speak out against america should be sent to a third world country so they can appreciate the freedoms and rights we have here....

Well what the **** do those freedoms and rights mean when they only extend to those within our borders. What ****ing significance do they hold when the PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF THIS COUNTRY DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO THEM. How is any better when YOU people call for the death of a ****ing teacher as opposed to a Muslim calling for the death of an infidel?

You people claim that those "gawd damned border jumpers" are ruining america. That liberal thought proccesses are destroying the government. That secular and free-thinking values are undermining the "christian foundations" of this country. That Muslims are constantly attempting to blow up another building...Yet when the administration rewrites the very principles that define this country, you think thats perfectly acceptable? With the irreparable damage you and yours are inflicting on this country, where the **** do you get off complaining about any of the things listed above. You claim to be patriotic, but every day you're patriotic to a new damn America, because every day this administration is in control it drifts even farther and farther away from what it was set out to be.

I've never approved of this administration or any of the things they have done. I used to think that this administration should be stripped of power as soon as possible. But now I KNOW that if any of the integrity this country USED TO STAND FOR is to be regained, or if we even want to retain what is left of that integrity, Bush and the rest of his administration need to face punishment for the bastardization of this country, for the destruction of this morals of this nations ideals, and for their complete degregation and disregard for human rights. Or we can just continue to look the other way, join the flock of complacent sheep which compromise the majority of this country, and to hell with where this country actually is in 20 or 30 years.

 

[Lethalfind]

Where have you been, of course the law does'nt apply to Bush, he is above the law in all things, he can lie to us all, the world and its all good.

 

[builder]

This speech kinda mirrors the first post here.

And this thread casts aspersions on the flag-waving faux patriotism that simply isn't cutting the mustard any more in circles outside and within the US of A.

 

[Crazywumbat]

Does it never stop? You know…normally I would not say such a thing, but, perhaps what is needed in this country is a good old fashion invasion by a hostile and capable foreign force, armed, teched-out and in sufficient numbers to put a real lasting hurting on the land of America.

Let their boots march down your streets, kick down your door drag you wife out and **** her before killing her and the rest of your family..may all the McDonalds be blown to ****, let the stocks of rifles be used like clubs bashing in the heads of baby seals….let it all go up in flames…..and then right before you get thrown in a mass-grave, I will walk up and read to you your post.
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And how exactly does any of that make the idea that the administration can torture, abuse, and murder ANY one it feels may be a threat to national security in as brutal a fashion as they want, and never have to answer for it, even if that person is completely innocent any more tolerable?

 

[builder]

So what

 

[builder]

I understand your point of view, but it is not just America. Europe is and has been in the grip of such men for sometime now.

Yes, but the difference is, when exposure of corruption and nepotism happens, positive action is generally taken. Tony Blair is not 'retiring', he's being shunted out of the position because he lied to his people on several occasions, and to avoid legal action, his own underling is blackmailing him into early retirement.

Bush or no Bush the rules of engagement world wide has changed.

Why would you suggest that is the reality? NATO forces have stepped over the lines occasionally, but no nation operates unilaterally like the US does, and has done, in the past.

They had been changing prior to Bush & 9/11.

And I would posit that US foreign policy caused the change.

The enemies imagined or real do not play by the so called rules.

It's tit for tat. The US gov has trampled on so many other nations over the decades, I'm not surprised when the **** hits the fan.

America is currently fighting a 2 or 3 front war. The only thing that has not happened is complete mobilization of the full US military machine.

It's because the rest of the developed world would turn their back on the US, and form a coalition of their own.

What is the solution? If America withdraws from the world stage, the world will not just leave America alone.

I'm not suggesting withdrawal. It's too late for that. I'm suggesting rational discussions between all concerned parties, making plans with clearly stated rational outcomes, and sticking with the plan. What we have at the moment, is underhanded and oft-times outright bullshit, masquerading as war propaganda. Even diehard rightwingers are cringing at the bullshit being bandied about the press at the moment.

If America continues to expend the money and resources at the rate it is then it will be forced to withdraw or collapse, in either one of those scenarios it will leave a vacuum, and chaos will fill it.

I agree. It's not time to launch another invasion. It's time to rationalise the position your armed forces are in at the current time, and work from there. Passing laws allowing torture to take place in offshore regions is not going to be productive for anyone concerned. The people know this.

And that chaos will eventually come knocking at the door.The Middle East, never was exactly friendly with the US or for that matter anyone else outside that theater of operation.

It's always been about money. Iran had a democratically elected president in 1953. US magazine, Time, named him man of the year. I think you know the rest of the story there.

Islam is a real threat, and the rising immigrant issue is a real threat as well.

So lobby for a stop to allowing Islamics to emigrate to the US.

No easy solutions, but I am beginning to get irritated with the fact that we wont have to wait for outsiders to destroy us, in righteous western fashion we are imploding and infighting and will destroy ourselves long before the outsiders get around to it.

It is rather poor form how the two clearly stated factions simply snipe the **** out of eachother. Anyone who even comes close to a "solution" is shouted down as repug or a dimmy. It's pathetic in the extreme.

In the time honored tradition of

 

[Hamza123]

Does it never stop? You know

 

[builder]

In the European political arena, Positive action is changing the faces and continuing business as usual, you know this to be true.

I know this to be true of business in general. In the business of war, what I said about Tony Blair is gospel.

Nothing changes, just the faces.

The faces of the figureheads change. The money-men remain.

Europe is responsible for 100 times the atrocities, in the same realm America is currently being bashed over the head with.

You'd need some solid evidence there. What do you have?

Not using the

 

[hugo]

And how exactly does any of that make the idea that the administration can torture, abuse, and murder ANY one it feels may be a threat to national security in as brutal a fashion as they want, and never have to answer for it, even if that person is completely innocent any more tolerable?

We should withdraw from the Geneva treaty. It is folly to pretend there are rules in war. The purpose of government is to protect that government's citizens, not dumb****s in the rest of the world.

 

[builder]

We should withdraw from the Geneva treaty.

It would be wise. If you don't, the war crimes court will place the bulk of your current administration into permanent confinement.

It is folly to pretend there are rules in war.

Granted. But the issue is the rules of confinement and the responsibility of due care and attention.

The purpose of government is to protect that government's citizens, not dumb****s in the rest of the world.

Typical isolationist propaganda. I guess it's all you got, Hugo a gogo.

 

[hugo]

It would be wise. If you don't, the war crimes court will place the bulk of your current administration into permanent confinement.

No one ever actually gets tried under the Geneva convention unless they are deposed where they would have gotten tried anyways e.g Nuremburg, Pinochet, Saddam. The treaty was a waste of paper. Could have saved a few trees.

Typical isolationist propaganda. I guess it's all you got, Hugo a gogo

I believe that the purpose of government is to protect its citizens from internal and external aggressors and that foreign and domestic policies should have that as their goal. Governments that fail to do this don't last long. I am so "isolationist" that we would not have invaded Iraq, or given aid to Israel, much less give AIDS money to African nations, under a Hugo administration.

 

[builder]

No one ever actually gets tried under the Geneva convention unless they are deposed where the would have gotten tried anyways e.g Nuremburg, Pinochet, Saddam. The treaty was a waste of paper. Could have saved a few trees.



I believe that the purpose of government is to protect its citizens from internal and external aggressors and that foreign and domestic policies should have that as their goal. Governments that fail to do this don't last long. I am so "isolationist" that we would not have invaded Iraq, or given aid to Israel, much less give AIDS money to African nations, under a Hugo administration.

So what is your response to this?

 

[hugo]

So what is your response to this?

Nothing wrong with trade. Calling Pakistan a terrorist state is hyperbole.

 

[builder]

Nothing wrong with trade. Calling Pakistan a terrorist state is hyperbole.

Nothing at all wrong with trade. The problem lies in Pakistan being given the ultimatum of cowtowing, or being driven under. They cowtowed, as you would, and continued allowing the free trade of illicit arms, drugs, and humans. What else have they got?

 

[hugo]

Nothing at all wrong with trade. The problem lies in Pakistan being given the ultimatum of cowtowing, or being driven under. They cowtowed, as you would, and continued allowing the free trade of illicit arms, drugs, and humans. What else have they got?

From our friends in the CIA

Pakistan
Exports - commodities:
textiles (garments, bed linen, cotton cloth, yarn), rice, leather goods, sports goods, chemicals, manufactures, carpets and rugs.

I wonder how many rugs for an F-16?

 

[builder]

From our friends in the CIA

Pakistan
Exports - commodities:
textiles (garments, bed linen, cotton cloth, yarn), rice, leather goods, sports goods, chemicals, manufactures, carpets and rugs.

I wonder how many rugs for an F-16?

If you're talking the handmade specials from the hill tribes. The answer is 64.

 

[snafu]

Torture has been on this earth as long as man. What, so we're the civilized society and so we shouldn’t do it? Lets all head to McDonalds before Nazz has them blown up and fatten up real good before we get ****ed in the ass! We have to play ball the same way the other team plays or were screwed. Should we use bamboo up the fingernails? Or lets lope of an ear, finger, or a tounge? We don’t have to be as barbaric as them but we need information. We can get it many other ways. I prefer the bar of soap in the sock trick. Or the Chinese water torture. Yeah no marks but you get the same results. Another idiot blaming the Bush admin. You ****ing idiot! Can't you see it dosen't matter who's in charge? ****!

 

[snafu]

I understand your point of view, but it is not just America. Europe is and has been in the grip of such men for sometime now.

Bush or no Bush the rules of engagement world wide has changed. They had been changing prior to Bush & 9/11. The enemies imagined or real do not play by the so called rules. America is currently fighting a 2 or 3 front war. The only thing that has not happened is complete mobilization of the full US military machine.

What is the solution? If America withdraws from the world stage, the world will not just leave America alone. If America continues to expend the money and resources at the rate it is then it will be forced to withdraw or collapse, in either one of those scenarios it will leave a vacuum, and chaos will fill it. And that chaos will eventually come knocking at the door.

The Middle East, never was exactly friendly with the US or for that matter anyone else outside that theater of operation. Islam is a real threat, and the rising immigrant issue is a real threat as well.

No easy solutions, but I am beginning to get irritated with the fact that we wont have to wait for outsiders to destroy us, in righteous western fashion we are imploding and infighting and will destroy ourselves long before the outsiders get around to it. In the time honored tradition of “Family is Family” it is my opinion that we deal with the outside threats first, band together and afterwards go about bashing each other senseless in the living room of our own house, behind closed doors were the neighbors cant see.

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I jumped to the end before reading all the posts.

Excelent post! If I haven't said this ten times, shoot me! The liberals are killing use from within. This is a new era and the rules of engament have changed. We have to change with them.

 

[TerroristHater]

While redefining the definitions of torture set in the Geneva convention seemed awful enough, and while Congress actually passing that bill was pretty damn outrageous, what REALLY takes the cake is that burried in that bill is a clause that will pardon ALL members of the Bush administration for ANY war crime preosecutions resulting from the treatment of detainees. How the **** is that justified?

I see post after post on this forum from the conservative community calling for the public execution of a school teacher for burning a flag. Claiming that every person who doesn't automatically agree that America is the be-all, end-all, greatest country in the world should be murdered. Saying that people who speak out against america should be sent to a third world country so they can appreciate the freedoms and rights we have here....

Well what the **** do those freedoms and rights mean when they only extend to those within our borders. What ****ing significance do they hold when the PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF THIS COUNTRY DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO THEM. How is any better when YOU people call for the death of a ****ing teacher as opposed to a Muslim calling for the death of an infidel?

You people claim that those "gawd damned border jumpers" are ruining america. That liberal thought proccesses are destroying the government. That secular and free-thinking values are undermining the "christian foundations" of this country. That Muslims are constantly attempting to blow up another building...Yet when the administration rewrites the very principles that define this country, you think thats perfectly acceptable? With the irreparable damage you and yours are inflicting on this country, where the **** do you get off complaining about any of the things listed above. You claim to be patriotic, but every day you're patriotic to a new damn America, because every day this administration is in control it drifts even farther and farther away from what it was set out to be.

I've never approved of this administration or any of the things they have done. I used to think that this administration should be stripped of power as soon as possible. But now I KNOW that if any of the integrity this country USED TO STAND FOR is to be regained, or if we even want to retain what is left of that integrity, Bush and the rest of his administration need to face punishment for the bastardization of this country, for the destruction of this morals of this nations ideals, and for their complete degregation and disregard for human rights. Or we can just continue to look the other way, join the flock of complacent sheep which compromise the majority of this country, and to hell with where this country actually is in 20 or 30 years.

It's not justified. It's typical far-right (RINO) bullshit. Eventually, like in two years, the Republican party is going to be very sorry it endorsed the Bush administration. The democrats will likely sieze control of the house and the senate, which will leave Republicans open to the wrath of those who were used and abused by the republican party over the last eight years.

In case you're wondering, "RINO" means Republican in Name Only. This term accurately discribes people like Dick CHeney, George Bush, Sonny Purdue, Bush Sr., Jeb Bush, and even Bill Owens.

 

[Kryptonite Man]

I jumped to the end before reading all the posts.

Excellent post! If I haven't said this ten times, shoot me! The liberals are killing us from within. This is a new era and the rules of engagement have changed. We have to change with them.

Agreed. We should adapt or die. No PC inbetween.