The Abortion Debate. A Cultural View VS A Personal View.

I was having an interesting discussion about this topic with one of my philosophy friends the other day about this highly controversial topic as it was part of his assignment and decided to ask my view on it.

I am with it, as I am pro-abortonist.

Because of several reasons.

It's a personal choice not a political debate.

Yes I am aware that some people do abuse this privilage but what happens in cases of rape and incest then? I don't know from personal experiences from that, but one of my ex besties fell pregnant with her ex-bf's child who was African and she was Caucasian. Now. The surprise pregnancy shocked her and rocked her up even more, as the abortion did. Because she had no choice because she didn't want a living replica of her ex who she found out was cheating on her. Same goes with rape. I've posed this question many a time through various arguements on this topic on different forums, but why would you want to go through with a pregnancy that originally started with being violated?

Who are politicians (predominately male at that) to tell women they can't have abortions?

Here's some statistics I found about Australian abortions.

Almost two-thirds of all Australians (65%, up 8% since February 1996) approve of surgical abortion to terminate unwanted pregnancies, while 25% (down 8%) disapprove and 10% (unchanged) are undecided, the Bulletin-Morgan Poll finds.

 

On the issue of whether abortion laws should be changed, 47% of Australians believe the laws should be changed to make it easier to obtain an abortion, while 38% believe the laws should be left as they are. Only 10% believe it should be made harder to obtain an abortion and 5% are undecided.

I raised a question about having the pregnancy terminated because of the endangerment to the mother if that was to occur. Soon, I discovered that in El Salvador, that abortion is only allowed under these circumstances. But I got a different reply from my friend.

"Is it an eye for an eye? Just because the mother is in danger, does that giver her the automatic right to murder another being, just one that hasn't been brought into the world?"

Opinions.

Keep the flaming to a minimilisitic ZERO.

I seriously can't make up my mind.

I mean it's about killing a person, in my mind it's about when a fetus becomes a person, which I'm not sure about.

people need to think about how they define a person. if they say screw that, something about to be a person shouldn't be killed, is it then a crime to use a condom...some believe in that as well

edit: my lame 11.000th post

In Jewish law, forgive me if I read this wrong, but a fetus/baby is considered a 'life' from the time it draws a breath, so there is some grey area there open to debate - they still, as far as I'm concerned bury stillborn babies as lives without having drawn breath which kind of contradicts the classification of what deems a life... no matter, I digress... (oh and for the record I believe the Jews believe all life is sacred so abortion is a no-no, period - for the record I am not Jewish, I am CoE/Anglican, non practicing, dubious in my beliefs as it is).

As for what I believe in this matter I generally see abortion as murder. Granted when a woman is raped or a victim of incest you could argue she didn't have a choice to conceive so she has a right what to do in regards to her body and what comes from it, BUT having said that I can't condone abortion even in this circumstance - it isn't the child's choice to be conceived either, it has as much choice as the mother in this place does. As to the quality of life it has coming into a world with the associated stigma, well that remains to be seen. One could argue the merits of quality of life versus quantity of life akin to Euthanasia, but I agree that both options, as Sarah said, are personal choice - and a whole other argument.

Okay, without getting too personal I was in something of a similar situation once before and the idea of bringing a kid into the world in such circumstances was horrific, BUT when all's said and done I felt no better about 'killing' the fetus as what was done to me. Two wrongs do not make a right. I used to believe in capital punishment. Used to. I would like to say for the record even then I believe there are exceptions to the rule, as there are to every rule, and it comes down to individual discretion.

Have any of you actually witnessed an abortion? Have you seen it I mean happen on that ultrasound screen thing, whatever it's called? I can tell you it's horrific. I don't want to come across all -on-my-soapbox type, but the idea of wrenching someone limb from limb (while it's still alive, it has a heartbeat and can instinctively 'panic' - think about it, we put condemned killers to sleep first) then crushing its head and sucking it all out like a virus turns my stomach. I have seen it and it's stayed with me. Same as executions. Call the practice as humane as you want, but forcing another to die for whatever reason is still murder whether it's court sanctioned or not (again, best save that for another thread). Point is I personally believe life 'occurs' from the moment of conception. A fetus is a life. As far as I'm concerned abortion is cold-blooded murder. You can't excuse it. Even when a mother's life is in danger I think yes of course she has a choice, it is her life in the balance too and no one of sound mind and health logically wants to die, but in saying that if she aborted I think she has to carry some of that responsibility that what she is doing is murder. It may be 'legal' but the basic premise when you strip away the cushy sentiment is still the same; you're taking a life to save another. It may be the primal survival instincts kicking in there, kill or be killed, but really, who gives you the right to choose? In nature the sick newborn animals are discarded by nature. I'm not advocating you give birth to a kid you don't want just to dump in a public toilet, BUT I counter the point that we can choose to kill a baby in utero if it has defects to save it (and us) a lifetime of pain and misery as it legally stands now - and that's still murder. As long as the brain functions the body 'lives' in whatever state, whether riddled with disease or doomed for two minutes, whatever, so-be-it. If that's the way the nature intended, why fuck with it?

Anyway, I could go on and on about this, and undeniably others will disagree. Good, I hope you do. Opinions mean you can think for yourself and aren't regurgitating what someone else has told you. They're also like buttholes; everyone has one (if you're married, you might have two ) And chances are my opinions may change anyway - life's like that. It's just what I'm thinking at the time. Feel free to contest and pick it apart like vultures on a carcass.

And just for the record Sarah I agree with you on this point - keep the politics out of it. There's already enough outside so-called 'good' influence telling us what to eat, where to live, how to live our lives, what we should look like and how to raise our children etc, all the while stripping of us of our rights to be individuals and disciplinarians (and then punish us when the kids go haywire because we aren't allowed to ground them and infringe on any of their 'rights') - abortion should come down to the mother. NOT the father but the mother. IF you can get the father and mother to agree as a couple even better but in this age of divorce lets be realistic. Call it sexist, I don't care. It's her body. Her choice. Period. Live and let live I say. Ask me tomorrow, see what I say *shrugs*

It's murder.

both are........

both are........

Both are what...?

this fits perfectly into the pro life Vs pro choice debate, along with euthanasia, both are CONTROVERSIAL to the MAX

to be honest, i too, cannot give a definte view on this...because it can sway bothw ays easily, i think the notion of abortion should be ALLOWED, but only, and i STRESS, ONLY, under specific conditions or circumstances, examples like the Austrian incest case fals under those extreme cases where abortion SHOULD be allowed, the same goes with rape victims

of course, it shouldnt just be about whether to have the baby or not, its fully understanding the circumstances of any decision made-its about setting up a system for IF you enfore the pro abortion, to allow for those mothers/women carrying unwanted pregnancies to full grasp the situation of taking a life or to continue with having the child

obviously your taking a life if u kill that fetus, and theres no limit to the potential this baby may have, but on the other hand, a mother is very highly unlikely to want a child fathered against her will, and in either case the baby ends up in a bad environment or goes through orphanges and so on, its not a great life in either case, but for me, i think we should allow the baby a life, if at the very least...but thats not going to sit well with everyone

so i think we shouldnt just sway one way or the other, we should be FLEXIBLE, allow for every possible outcome and deal with them as they arrive, to set down DEFINITE rules only hurt a party, or both in some cases, and i think we should be setting down some form of flexible rule for this, becasue we hafto take EVERYTHING into account, the circumstances,the religions,the cultures...etc

i think what gradon means is that taking the life of a fetus is murder, as well as taking the life of an unwanted person, both are murder

both are........

Thus, this is why its so controversial.

This is my friend's bullshit btw.

:o

"Would you kill a dog? Animal cruelty. Would you kill a random off the streets? Murder. So how is not killing your unborn child not murder? You said it yourself there's a law introduced now that protects pregnant mothers from idiots who attack them and they end up losing their child, pre-natal murder."

BUT.

THE DIFFERENCES.

Pre-natal murder only counts after 6 months. You cannot have an abortion past 6 months of a pregnancy. Because of the chances of it harming more the mother than the child, and if the child somehow survives the attempted abortion, it will end up with defects. The only person legalised to perform an abortion is doctor. The doctor can only perform the abortion upon request of the woman (or in other cultures her family). After the abortion, woman gets automatic counselling, well, here.

Pre-natal murder only counts after 6 months. You cannot have an abortion by 6 months. Because of the chances of it harming more the mother than the child, and if the child somehow survives the attempted abortion, it will end up with defects. The only person legalised to perform an abortion is doctor. The doctor can only perform the abortion upon request of the woman (or in other cultures her family). After the abortion, woman gets automatic counselling, well, here.

You mean after 6 months, then its murder. The law defines the distinction between 'life' and 'that which is not yet life' in terms of gestation, contrary to some personal opinions, like I said.

Look, there are double standards throughout society, murder of course paramount (like the laws that sentence some killers to death for the very same thing, different MO), doctors notwithstanding. remember that doctor that went to jail for helping his patients to die (Euthanasia)? Though he took an oath to save lives he can legally choose to do so in an abortion. Both are technically murder, the difference being, one has a license to kill, regardless of his Hippocratic oath, the other has a license to save lives and by defying that is also defying the law. Hypocritical laws I say.

The act of abortion itself literally is neither humane nor legally sanctioned in all parts of the world. As was suggested ideally it would be best if we could agree to let situation and extenuating circumstances dictate the process of abortion - but the reason we have laws is by and large to keep the general flock in line. Leave the gate open too much and people will wander out of that proverbial yard the government likes to keep on its citizens and then we leave ourselves open to martial law, worst case scenario. There will always be exceptions to every rule. Just because some cultures don't believe in practising safe sex with condoms doesn't mean the rest of us don't either. It's principally up to government and legislation to control whether we agree with it or not. I do not, but that's the society we live in. We elect the officials that make up these dumb laws, ultimately we decide what's right and wrong en masse.

Look, there will always be people that will do what they want regardless the laws and go out and get illegal abortions if their laws deny it. That's human nature I think. I am all for that. You should have a choice. But in saying that understand that what you kill isn't a faceless thing it's another person, whether dumb, deformed, diseased or unwanted. Abortion is personal choice, it's freedom of choice, but don't deny at its most basic it's still murder.

And just for the record, yes I eat chicken eggs too (also heard referred to as chicken fetuses) :lol:

Cruelty to animals? Please. Unless you are a strict vegan don't go there. I hate unnecessary cruelty to animals too but I know when I eat a steak what that cow went through in the slaughter house and when I eat an egg just what that chicken growing up stuffed in a cramped cage has gone through in order to feed me. The chicken doesn't get a choice there either... damn... this could go on and on forever! But you get the idea...

I think too much emphasis is put on the argument of when a life is a life. If you see life as starting at a 6 month gestating fetus then so be it. If someone stabs the mother of that 6 month gestating fetus and kills the baby he/she's a murderer. Why? Because someone says a baby at 6 months is worth more than a life at 6 weeks. I scoff at that. But that's my opinion. Why then do mothers grieve when they miscarry if they haven't lost a life at whatever stage during the pregnancy?

^ i think its more to set a boundary, like...only those who get 98/100 can do this course, but what of those who got 97.99?

we hafta have a boundary, and i spose the elgal people decided that the boundary will be set at 6mths in uniform, some mothers dont realise theyre pregnant for awhile, and there are alot of issues before a baby reaches 6mths, babies CAN die before the 6mth period, its seen that once a baby feus reaches a certain period it will grow into a healthy baby(in general), whereas the period before that is seen as crucial for the baies developments and its survivial is not as guaranteed, well thas how i see it, they cant have just plucked a random number out of there...

euthanasia is defined as murder, but really it isnt, doctors that euthanise must be 100% morally sure before they proceed, because they CAN and MOST times refuse, its not murder, and its certainnly not hypocritical, doctors jobs are seen by general public as "saving" lives, but anyone associated with doctors or people that are doctors know that their job is really to make life easier for those suffering, whether it be to prescribe drugs, do sugery or diagnose-becasue regardless of waht the doctor does, they dont always 'save' the person, nor are they able to prevent death, their job is to make our lives easier when we are suffering, if we extend that to those that are looking at euthanasia and why a doctor can, in some ways, be afforded the ability to euthanise and NOT be seen as a murderer, even in legal terms

sorry for a few typos(my keyboard is stuffed)

and sorry if this went abit further than " a little" off topic

you guys will proberbly expect this from me but i don't agree with abortion unless the health of the mother or baby is in danger. when i became pregnant at 17 with eden i could have so easily have gone to the doctors and asked for an abortion, i didn't because i got myself in that situation. i knew that if i had sex there was a chance of me becoming pregnant, yet i still did it. women these days are having abortions in their dinner hour, that shows how its not taken seriously anymore. if your mature enough to make the decision to have sex then your mature enough to cope with the consequences.

i do agree with abortion in the case of pregnancy as the result of rape. i was raped when i was 13, my mum took me to the doctors and got me the morning after pill. that was in my opinion the sensible thing to do, i didn't decide to have sex, it was forced on me.

a feotus is a life even as early as 8 weeks, when you have an abortion your taking a life because of your mistake, wich is wrong.

i knew a girl who got pregnant at 17, she had an abortion. 6 months later she fell pregnant again but this time she kept the child. what changed in 6 months? from what i could see nothing had. its as easy as this......if you don't want a baby dont have sex unless you know your ready for that kind of responsibility.

i'm so glad i didn't decide to take the easy option and have an abortion or i would not have had 3 beautiful daughters.

No one should have the right to kill someone.

And abortion is killing.

If you don't want a child...just use a condom or all the other stuff that is available.

In case of a unwanted pregnancy...maybe caused through rape...you can still get the baby and give it away to a family that would really care about it.

In the case of incest..well that's a tough thing to decide...I don't know...in the end those are also human beings...so they should also have a right to live.

No one should have the right to kill someone.

 

And abortion is killing.

 

If you don't want a child...just use a condom or all the other stuff that is available.

In case of a unwanted pregnancy...maybe caused through rape...you can still get the baby and give it away to a family that would really care about it.

 

In the case of incest..well that's a tough thing to decide...I don't know...in the end those are also human beings...so they should also have a right to live.

QFT........

I agree with Jeezy,

If you didn't want to get pregnant, give it to people who can't have a baby and who really want it

I really find it amusing when the same people advocate the death penalty and are against abortion

babies dont murder now do they?

I really find it amusing when the same people advocate the death penalty and are against abortion

there's a difference...90% of the people that get the death penalty killed someone before and they deserve to die.

But what is it that an unborn child has done wrong?

My view is that people shouldn't use abortion just because they were irresponsible and didn't use protection. Actually, backtrack, people shouldn't be irresponsible. But of course that's just asking for the impossible these days. It's stupid that people can just abort a kid they had "by accident" and don't have to live down the consequence.

However in cases of rape, it wouldn't be the girls' fault. From her point, she doesn't actually bear the responsibility of carrying this child for ten months and the pain of labor and all the social pressures that come with it. She should be able to choose. At this time it is her morals that decide. If she feels that she should not kill a life, then she can give birth and she can give the child away or she can keep him/her. But imo she doesn't have to if she feels she doesn't want to. Sure, the kid didn't do anything to deserve to be killed, but the girl didn't do anything to deserve getting raped (unless she was provoking it o.O) And obviously it's sad that a life (or what would be, however you define life) would be taken away, and the point arises about the child not being able to choose just because he/she does not have a voice. And the debate will go on.

And there's also cases where both the mother and the child would most likely die if she were to give birth, but the mother is so against abortion that she'd rather die with the child. imo that's just not sensible. The point of being against abortion is because to protect the life of the child, but in these scenarios 2 lives will likely be lost, so there's really no point.

there's a difference...90% of the people that get the death penalty killed someone before and they deserve to die.

I´d rather see them in jail, where they can die slowly

July 3, 2006 I made a topic search there if you want my opionion

http://www.linkinparkforums.com/showthread.php?t=12631&highlight=abortion

You mean after 6 months, then its murder. The law defines the distinction between 'life' and 'that which is not yet life' in terms of gestation, contrary to some personal opinions, like I said.

Look, there are double standards throughout society, murder of course paramount (like the laws that sentence some killers to death for the very same thing, different MO), doctors notwithstanding. remember that doctor that went to jail for helping his patients to die (Euthanasia)? Though he took an oath to save lives he can legally choose to do so in an abortion. Both are technically murder, the difference being, one has a license to kill, regardless of his Hippocratic oath, the other has a license to save lives and by defying that is also defying the law. Hypocritical laws I say.

 

The act of abortion itself literally is neither humane nor legally sanctioned in all parts of the world. As was suggested ideally it would be best if we could agree to let situation and extenuating circumstances dictate the process of abortion - but the reason we have laws is by and large to keep the general flock in line. Leave the gate open too much and people will wander out of that proverbial yard the government likes to keep on its citizens and then we leave ourselves open to martial law, worst case scenario. There will always be exceptions to every rule. Just because some cultures don't believe in practising safe sex with condoms doesn't mean the rest of us don't either. It's principally up to government and legislation to control whether we agree with it or not. I do not, but that's the society we live in. We elect the officials that make up these dumb laws, ultimately we decide what's right and wrong en masse.

Look, there will always be people that will do what they want regardless the laws and go out and get illegal abortions if their laws deny it. That's human nature I think. I am all for that. You should have a choice. But in saying that understand that what you kill isn't a faceless thing it's another person, whether dumb, deformed, diseased or unwanted. Abortion is personal choice, it's freedom of choice, but don't deny at its most basic it's still murder.

 

And just for the record, yes I eat chicken eggs too (also heard referred to as chicken fetuses) :lol:

Cruelty to animals? Please. Unless you are a strict vegan don't go there. I hate unnecessary cruelty to animals too but I know when I eat a steak what that cow went through in the slaughter house and when I eat an egg just what that chicken growing up stuffed in a cramped cage has gone through in order to feed me. The chicken doesn't get a choice there either... damn... this could go on and on forever! But you get the idea...

 

I think too much emphasis is put on the argument of when a life is a life. If you see life as starting at a 6 month gestating fetus then so be it. If someone stabs the mother of that 6 month gestating fetus and kills the baby he/she's a murderer. Why? Because someone says a baby at 6 months is worth more than a life at 6 weeks. I scoff at that. But that's my opinion. Why then do mothers grieve when they miscarry if they haven't lost a life at whatever stage during the pregnancy?

A law was passed recently in australia that gave justice to mothers that have been attacked by idiots and the end result they had lost their child from the assult etc etc.

But the question comes down to can we justify a miscarriage as murder or an accidental death? Miscarriages can occur with a deliberate attempt to kill the child and disguise it as an accident. But in the cases of such mothers as the one that lost her child in the bathroom in Royal North Shore in Sydney a couple of months, it's an accident. It's not considered murder. Well that case.

But the question comes down to, at what stage do we socially accept the embryo to be a living thing?

I´d rather see them in jail, where they can die slowly

yeah but there's always a chance they'll get out of jail somehow

babies dont murder now do they?

MayBE! lol

Ahh I think this issue is rather simple, well to me anyway. If you don't want to get pregnant just don't have fucking sex!!!! I mean really that is what it is for, apart from enjoying sexy times with the apparent boyfriend that you think you are madly in love with at that drunk-fest of a party, is reproducing human kind.

Sex=Pregnancy=Babies

Or I mean geez, just then use a strong condom or go on the pill or something.

SIMPLE

EDIT: Sorry if I just sounded like a jerk or something, I just think its an easy question.

MayBE! lol

 

Ahh I think this issue is rather simple, well to me anyway. If you don't want to get pregnant just don't have fucking sex!!!! I mean really that is what it is for, apart from enjoying sexy times with the apparent boyfriend that you think you are madly in love with at that drunk-fest of a party, is reproducing human kind.

 

Sex=Pregnancy=Babies

 

Or I mean geez, just then use a strong condom or go on the pill or something.

 

SIMPLE

 

EDIT: Sorry if I just sounded like a jerk or something, I just think its an easy question.

jerk or not tis true BC :>