THE PROBLEM WITH "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"

[The_Sage]

The Bible tells us taking the life of another human is wrong, yet turns around
and has Samuel go out and kill every man, pregnant woman, child, baby, and even
animal in the so-called Promise Land. Where I come from, that would be called
mass-murder, religious cleansing, ethnic cleansing, racial cleansing, and animal
cruelty. I guess if Samuel had done this of his own free will, it would be
considered evil, but since God told Samuel to do it, it must be "righteous".

So this brings up the question, is God just as unrighteous as man then? I think
about all the mass murders and religious cleansings God conducted in the OT.
There was (in addition to 1 Samuel 15:2-3) Hosea 9:11-16, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Exodus
12:29-30, Leviticus 26:21-22, Isaiah 13:15-18, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, and so on
and so forth. Then there are all the many and varied reasons for us to kill
other people in the name of God. We are to kill anyone working on the Sabbath,
gays, infidels, false prophets, women who are not virgins on their wedding
night, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, anyone who curses their parents,
fortunetellers, witches, and so on and so forth. So "thou shalt not kill" is one
of the Ten Commandments, yet there are so many exceptions to the rule in the
Bible for killing other people, God has made killing one another the rule
instead of the exception to the rule. The Bible has turned a reasonable moral
principle into a joke instead of something to be taken seriously.

The Sage

=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm

"The illusion that we are separate from one another is an
optical delusion of our consciousness." -- Albert Einstein
=============================================================

 

[IlBeBauck@gmail.com]

On Feb 9, 4:32

 

[The_Sage]

>Reply to article by: "IlBeBauck@gmail.com" <IlBeBauck@gmail.com>
>Date written: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:26:15 -0800 (PST)
>MsgID:<a7bb6d0f-cf04-468a-ae42-ba4f82bd6526@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>

>> So this brings up the question, is God just as unrighteous as man then? I think
>> about all the mass murders and religious cleansings God conducted in the OT.
>> There was (in addition to 1 Samuel 15:2-3) Hosea 9:11-16, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Exodus
>> 12:29-30, Leviticus 26:21-22, Isaiah 13:15-18, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, and so on
>> and so forth. Then there are all the many and varied reasons for us to kill
>> other people in the name of God. We are to kill anyone working on the Sabbath,
>> gays, infidels, false prophets, women who are not virgins on their wedding
>> night, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, anyone who curses their parents,
>> fortunetellers, witches, and so on and so forth. So "thou shalt not kill" is one
>> of the Ten Commandments, yet there are so many exceptions to the rule in the
>> Bible for killing other people, God has made killing one another the rule
>> instead of the exception to the rule. The Bible has turned a reasonable moral
>> principle into a joke instead of something to be taken seriously.

>REPLY: I notice you ask alot of questions . Im wondering what steps
>you have taken to really find out about these things which you inquire
>about ? Asking questions is a good thing, but, coming to the table
>with your mind already made up is not very good. It is disenguous to
>automatically think the Bible or God is wrong. There are difficulties
>as there are with any work of antiquity--every historian will tell you
>this. Re: Your questions : God values life and he established laws
>as a deterrent and punishment for when heinous murders are committed.
>The punishment is meant to be no more and no less than the what the
>Perpetrator committed. As for God taking human life ; in the Bible he
>orders this to be done to his enemies . As for children being
>taken...children always are in a much better place being with God than
>having them be a part of evil tribes and kingdoms. Any child that
>hasnt reached the age of accountability, go to be with God if they are
>taken . For some really good sources, go to www.impactapologetics.com
>and www.answersingenesis.org .

Actually, I asked very few questions and gave many answers backed up by many
scriptures. You, on the other hand, avoid difficult questions, ignore disturbing
answers, and run away from them both like a coward. One of the top ten
commandments God gives is thou shalt not kill, yet later on God goes on to give
hundreds of commandments on how to do nothing but kill. You seem to think that
if man commits racial/ethnic/religious cleansings, it is immoral, but if God
commits racial/ethnic/religious cleansings it is moral, but I say that is
hypocritical and dishonest reasoning. Either racial/ethnic/religious cleansings
is moral or it is not, regardless of who does it. So if we can judge men by
their immoral actions such as committing racial/ethnic/religious cleansings,
then we can judge the Gods by the same exact standards...

....and your God fails.

The Sage

=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm

[The current anthropomorphic global warming nonsense is
based on] "inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar
to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week
from now" -- Dr. Richard Lindzen
=============================================================

 

[Jayne Cobb]

On Feb 9, 2:32

 

[Ken]

On Feb 9, 10:01

 

[The_Sage]

>Reply to article by: Jayne Cobb <hsototr@hotmail.com>
>Date written: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:51:25 -0800 (PST)
>MsgID:<b834d66f-ebb6-436c-84ad-31f27940dda0@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>

>> The Bible tells us taking the life of another human is wrong,

>It says murder is wrong. The two are not quite the same thing.

It says both, depending on which translation you use. But the meaning is still
clear in both cases: taking the life of another human is not what God intended
humans to ever have to do.

>> . . . yet turns around
>> and has Samuel go out and kill every man, pregnant woman, child, baby, and even
>> animal in the so-called Promise Land. Where I come from, that would be called
>> mass-murder, religious cleansing, ethnic cleansing, racial cleansing, and animal
>> cruelty.

>This is because of when you were born. Genocide only became taboo
>when war became industrialized and new photos were widespread.

Genocide is now taboo because humans realized it was wrong. Why didn't the God
of Isreal come to the same realization before humans did? What does that say
about the moral compass of God?

>> I guess if Samuel had done this of his own free will, it would be
>> considered evil, but since God told Samuel to do it, it must be "righteous".

>Prior to modern times who didn't sack cities that they captured?

So it is morally okay for God ask others to do it because other humans were
doing it already too?

>> So this brings up the question, is God just as unrighteous as man then? I think
>> about all the mass murders and religious cleansings God conducted in the OT.
>> There was (in addition to 1 Samuel 15:2-3) Hosea 9:11-16, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Exodus
>> 12:29-30, Leviticus 26:21-22, Isaiah 13:15-18, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, and so on
>> and so forth. Then there are all the many and varied reasons for us to kill
>> other people in the name of God. We are to kill anyone working on the Sabbath,
>> gays, infidels, false prophets, women who are not virgins on their wedding
>> night, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, anyone who curses their parents,
>> fortunetellers, witches, and so on and so forth.

>You do have a valid point here. Personally I would like to think we
>have outgrown whatever social requirement that custom satisfied. I
>doubt you will find that to be a satisfying answer.

Because you know it is not an answer but an excuse. What social requirement
could justify any of the reasons to be intolerant and unloving as described
above?

>> So "thou shalt not kill" is one of the Ten Commandments,

>Thou shalt no murder is one of the TC. Obviously someone translated
>it wrong when some versions used the word kill.

Obviously...not. Clearly you have done absolutely no research into the matter...

Exodus 20:13. "Thou shalt not kill" (King James Version)

Exodus 20:13. "Ratsach" (Septuagint)

Ratsach:
"1) to murder, slay, kill
a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1) premeditated
2) accidental
3) as avenger
4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
b) (Niphal) to be slain
c) (Piel)
1) to murder, assassinate
2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
d) (Pual) to be killed" (07523, Strong's Concordance)

So, any premeditated avenging, slaying, or assassination, is a violation of one
of the Ten Commandments.

>> . . . yet there are so many exceptions to the rule in the
>> Bible for killing other people, God has made killing one another the rule
>> instead of the exception to the rule. The Bible has turned a reasonable moral
>> principle into a joke instead of something to be taken seriously.

>Killing in war and killing criminals in the process of committing
>violent crime are still two requirements we can't get around.

But I never mentioned that as an example of where God tells us to kill one
another. That reason could be justified but not any of the others.

>I doubt
>anyone thought the ten commandments covered either. They certainly
>didn't cover capital punishment as evidenced by all the CP present in
>Mosaic law.

The Bible is strangely silent on the topic of punishment. What is the purpose of
punishment?

The Sage

=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm

[The current anthropomorphic global warming nonsense is
based on] "inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar
to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week
from now" -- Dr. Richard Lindzen
=============================================================

 

[Jayne Cobb]

On Feb 10, 11:24

 

[The_Sage]

>Reply to article by: Jayne Cobb <hsototr@hotmail.com>
>Date written: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:07:32 -0800 (PST)
>MsgID:<89386dc1-286e-4b2c-afba-a85eab7307fe@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com>

>> >> The Bible tells us taking the life of another human is wrong,
>> >It says murder is wrong.

 

[Jayne Cobb]

On Feb 10, 6:45

 

[The_Sage]

>Reply to article by: Jayne Cobb <hsototr@hotmail.com>
>Date written: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:14:08 -0800 (PST)
>MsgID:<4678ea86-87da-42c5-8085-50d277401a70@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>

>> Both make sense when you look at the definition of the original Hebrew words
>> given in Strong's Concordance.

>The Hebrews did not run around banging their heads against trees
>because they could not understand what the law meant.

Neither do we.

>We have trouble because we don't speak that dead language.

Scholars do not have any trouble with it because it is not a dead language but
still spoken today.

>However if you look at the
>context one meaning makes sense and the other doesn't.

I have looked at the context and both make sense considering the context. The
point is that we have multiple scholary references that ALL agree that the word
translated as "kill" or "murder" actually means both in the sense of the actual
definition of "to take the life of another human". Both murder and killing can
be examples of taking the life of another human. Shouldn't God be the only one
with the right to know when murder or killing is acceptable and when it is not?

>> You want to tell me that you can justify killing . . .

>No I do not.

But you are. Killing or taking another human's life is not a sin to you. You are
acting as a God and determining for yourself when it is right or wrong to take
another human's life. I say it is never right unless it is in self-defense or in
defense of another. As long as there exists even one exception for taking
another human's life, there will always be a reason to mass kill millions of
humans simply because they belonged to the "wrong" religion or ethnic group.

>> >> But the meaning is still
>> >> clear in both cases: taking the life of another human is not what God intended
>> >> humans to ever have to do.
>> >This is not the case as you cited in your original post.

>> The Hebrew word translated as kill or murder literally means "to take the life
>> of another human", so that is the only case that can be supported.

>I was not aware that you get to make up the rules for determining the
>meaning of dead languages. The law made it clear when taking human
>life was required so this rules out the translation "kill".

I was not aware that only you know what the rules for determinging the meaning
of any languages were, and that the world-wide Bible reference, Strong's
Concordance, is wrong because you are the only one who really knows what those
words mean.

>> Turning a blind eye to someone else's immorality
>> is the equivalent of approving of their immorality. We cannot ignore it, not if
>> we are moral people.

>I will agree with you that God did not make genocide a sin. He could
>have but didn't.

Worse yet, God practiced genocide knowing that it was immoral, which makes God
the most immoral kind of person there can be because He, knowing it was immoral,
went ahead and did it anyway.

>> >> >You do have a valid point here.

 

[Jayne Cobb]

On Feb 11, 9:57