Thou shalt kill or thou shalt not?

One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',

and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

of former murderers!

That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

kill',

> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

>

> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

>

> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

>

> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

> of former murderers!

>

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

Christians totally base their faith on the Bibles.

Without the Bible stories the Christian religion would not exist. The Bibles

are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions, human and

animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny, destruction,

barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and

certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and totally

untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.

The average person today does not appreciate the difficulty and unlikelihood

of producing accurate transmissions of the original Bibles. Firstly there

are no originals in existence. They are all copies of copies of unknown

accuracy.

One of the problems with the accuracy of the Bibles is that when they were

copied, no marks of punctuation were used, no distinction was made between

lower case and upper case letters and more bizarre to modern script, no

spaces were used to separate words.

This kind of continuous writing was called "scriptuo continua"

'godisnowhere' could mean 'god is now here' or quit the opposite, 'god is no

where' depending on the spacing which was not used at the time. This left

accurate interpretation very unlikely.

Add to this the normal occurrence of errors of transmission and the

intentional modification to suite the transcribers wishes and beliefs and

you have documents of highly questionable meaning and unlikely accuracy.

Further compounding the problem was the size and accuracy of the

vocabularies were much more limited than today.

The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in

existence. Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are

available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable

veracity. The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the

invention of the printing press. Even the so called originals were

supposedly written by 50 or more different authors of unknown veracity. They

are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And

the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their follower

's belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions

alone and there is no way of knowing how far they have wondered from the

originals.

And there is no evidence that even the originals are anything more than

inaccurate fiction. Do you believe in a book that has talking animals,

wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling

from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical,

absurd and primitive stories,

Basing ones life and faith on these documents is not very sound reasoning.

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

kill',

> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

>

> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

>

> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

>

> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

> of former murderers!

>

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

>

>

Laughingly, ultra theist duke was involved in the manufacture of weapons -

but he gets around this little inconvenience by suggesting that he did

exactly what his country told him to do. But this also has a caveat because

he thinks that his god talks the US president regarding war. I like the idea

the we have to live our lives in complete slavery & obedience to this god

who lays down the commandments & as soon as he loses his temper, its all

fire & brimstone & hell for eternity. How more theists don't end up in the

loony bin trying to resolve these contradictions they so firmly believe in

is beyond me.

On Oct 3, 6:42 pm, "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>

wrote:

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',

> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

>

> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

>

> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

>

> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

> of former murderers!

>

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

One of the reasons I lost my religion; the church I attended supported

the war in Vietnam. When I asked the pastor how the church could

support killing people when God said so clearly that doing so was

wrong, I got a bunch of crap for an answer. Then I was told I just

didn't understand. Yeah, I didn't; just one of the contradictions

that made me question the whole Christian faith.

Medusa

AA #2281

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

> kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

>

> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

>

> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

>

> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

> of former murderers!

>

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not

MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.

Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.

--

Denis Loubet

dloubet@io.com

http//www.io.com/~dloubet

josh:

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

Well, the _real_ ten commandments say _no_ such thing as "thou shalt not

kill", so...

--

"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;

But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."

(The Poetic Edda)

Must have been written with fundies in mind...

My personal judgment of monotheism:

http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, josh wrote:

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',

> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

>

> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

>

> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

>

> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

> of former murderers!

>

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder." Much of

the Old Testament is a cookbook for maintaining the group identity and

solidarity of the Jews in a hostile world. Killing people outside your

clan is OK, even encouraged. But don't kill one of your own, unless he

picks up a stick on the Sabbath.

--

MarkA

(This space accidentally filled in)

Last time that great scribe josh <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>

chipped away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',

> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

>

> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

>

> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

>

> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

> of former murderers!

>

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

That's because elsewhere in the buybull God does an enormous amount of

killing, of ethnic cleansing, of raping, burning and pillaging, or has

ordered his sycophants do do the same. Cromwell was directly inspired by

the book of Joshua when he did his war crimes in Dregheda and Wexford.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying

apatriot #1, atheist #1417,

Chief EAC prophet

Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make

you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Last time that great scribe Denis Loubet <dloubet@io.com> chipped away

at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>

> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

> >

> > So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why

> > have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years

> > killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they

> > disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

> >

> > Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

> >

> > Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a

> > situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a

> > Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

> >

> > Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to

> > beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full

> > of former murderers!

> >

> > That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

>

> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not

> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.

>

> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.

I've heard that line even though the Hebrew word is not the one for

"murder" but a more general word for "kill" and the same word is used in

the OT to describe animals sacrificed.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying

apatriot #1, atheist #1417,

Chief EAC prophet

Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make

you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

> kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder." So

before you go on your diatribe, get the proper, most accurate translation of

the Hebrew. It will save you from the embarassment due to ignorance.

May God bless,

Carl

my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/

my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

Last time that great scribe MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> chipped away at

his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>

> A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."

I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that

"kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying

apatriot #1, atheist #1417,

Chief EAC prophet

Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make

you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at

his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>

> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."

Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word

for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a

murder situation.

The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying

apatriot #1, atheist #1417,

Chief EAC prophet

Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make

you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, "josh"

<jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:

>One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',

:

Only in the appalling English translations.

The Hebrew says something quite different.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:13:45 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:

>

>"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

>news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

>> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

>> kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

>Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder." So

>before you go on your diatribe, get the proper, most accurate translation of

>the Hebrew. It will save you from the embarassment due to ignorance.

Whilst I am in broad agreement, it is even more subtle than this,

though.

If sufficient academic interest is expressed, I shall explain more

fully.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris

<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

>Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at

>his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>

>>

>> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

>> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

>> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

>> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>>

>> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."

>

>Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word

>for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a

>murder situation.

>

>The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?

I happen to think otherwise.

I take it that you can read Hebrew?

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message

news:2789g35giq28odoif451d8i5shcn16fkr0@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris

> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

>

>>Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at

>>his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>>

>>>

>>> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

>>> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

>>> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

>>> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>>>

>>> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."

>>

>>Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word

>>for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a

>>murder situation.

>>

>>The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

>

> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?

> I happen to think otherwise.

> I take it that you can read Hebrew?

I can't, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

Last time that great scribe Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> chipped

away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris

> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

>

> >Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at

> >his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

> >

> >>

> >> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

> >> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> >> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

> >> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

> >>

> >> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."

> >

> >Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word

> >for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a

> >murder situation.

> >

> >The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

>

> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?

> I happen to think otherwise.

> I take it that you can read Hebrew?

My source is Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" in the chapter

"Murder He Wrote".

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying

apatriot #1, atheist #1417,

Chief EAC prophet

Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make

you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

"Meteorite Debris" <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote in message

news:MPG.216f0cd965008be8989880@news.ade.connect.com.au...

>> A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."

>

> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that

> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.

Can someone get God on the phone and clear this up.

Jesus titty fucking christ, if you're going to write a manual, don't employ

the technical writing staff at Lucky Goldstar!

"Meteorite Debris" <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote in message

news:MPG.216f6cf9d7ff26a1989886@news.ade.connect.com.au...

> Last time that great scribe Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> chipped

> away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>

>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris

>> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

>>

>> >Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at

>> >his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>> >

>> >>

>> >> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

>> >> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

>> >> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

>> >> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>> >>

>> >> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."

>> >

>> >Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word

>> >for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a

>> >murder situation.

>> >

>> >The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

>>

>> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?

>> I happen to think otherwise.

>> I take it that you can read Hebrew?

>

> My source is Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" in the chapter

> "Murder He Wrote".

I think it's probably safe to say that all killing is not forbidden with the

term "ratsach". Certainly self-defense is not "ratsach" and the OT god seems

to relish war to the point of scary freakishness.

I guess it all just shows to go ya that one shouldn't rely on the mythology

of Bronze Age sandeaters as a basis for a social compact. This is especially

true for a democracy. We are a nation of laws, not men, and certainly not of

clay tablets. Laws are meant to be evolutionary (even revolutionary if you

ask Jefferson).

Splitting hairs over the meaning of "ratsach" is only an amusing exercise

from an anthropological/linguistic standpoint.

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message

news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...

>

>

> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not

> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.

>

> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.

>

Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou

shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.

However if this is beyond your capabilities...

The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"

according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew

Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded

Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.

May God bless,

Carl

my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/

my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message

news:nt79g3dgc9m7astonae53f4ku456ui2mm1@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, "josh"

> <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:

>

>>One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

>>kill',

>

> Only in the appalling English translations.

> The Hebrew says something quite different.

That's fine, but is it really relevant to modern society? I sure hope not.

IMHO, I don't care if it means "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not

murder" or "Thou shalt not eat beets".

And why the heck can't Christians understand that "God" didn't really speak

in Renaissance English?

On Oct 4, 12:56 am, Meteorite Debris

<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

> Last time that great scribe Carl <sai...@nettally.com> chipped away at

> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>

>

>

> > "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message

> >news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...

> > > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not

> > > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

>

> > Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."

>

> Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word

> for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a

> murder situation.

>

> The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

>

Nope. Biblical language scholars have shown time and time again that

the word "ratsach" is properly and most accurately translated as

"murder" in regards to the passages referred (Ex. 20:13; Dt. 5:17).

The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"

according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew

Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with

Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.

Even when referenced in the New Testament (Matt. 5:21; Rom. 13:9) the

Koine Greek word "phoneuo" also translates into English as "to

murder" (New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded

Greek-Hebrew Dictionary).

May God bless,

Carl

my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/

my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

On Oct 4, 12:15 am, Meteorite Debris

<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

> Last time that great scribe MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> chipped away at

> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>

>

>

> > A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."

>

> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that

> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.

>

Barker isn't qualified as an expert in Biblical languages. His degree

in Religion from Azusa Pacific University did not give him expert

qualifications in Biblical languages, specifically in this case,

Hebrew and Koine Greek. So your source is flawed. Actual Biblical

language experts teach that both the Hebrew and Koine Greek that

reference this commandment are most accurately translated as "to

murder." The recognized scholarly sources such as Thayer's and

Strong's support this as well. As do numerous other scholarly sources.

It is becoming apparent that you are unable and/or unwilling to be

intellectually honest on this point and would rather rely on

unqualified sources (such as Dan Barker) rather than researching this

correctly. As such your claims become moot.

May God bless,

Carl

my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/

my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:15:36 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:

>

>"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message

>news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...

>>

>>

>> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not

>> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.

>>

>> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.

>>

>

>Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou

>shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.

>However if this is beyond your capabilities...

Actually it's not. This is a rationalisation by in-denial believers.

>The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"

>according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew

>Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded

>Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.

Dan Barker checked all the words used for kill/slay/etc. From his

essay "Murder, she Wrote" in Losing Faith in Faith, copied without

permission, any typos are my own:

[begin insert]

Do the Ten Commandments really say "Thou shalt not murder"? The Hebrew

word for "kill" in Exodus 20:13 is ratsach. (The word for "slay" in

the contradictory command in Exodus 32:27 is haraq). Depending on

which version you use there are about ten Hebrew words which are

translated "kill". The five most common, in Hebrew order (with

translation in order of King James frequency) are:

muth: (825) die, slay, put to death, kill

nakah: (502) smite, kill, slay, beat, wound, murder

haraq: (172) slay, kill, murder, destroy

zabach: (140) sacrifice, kill

ratsach: (47) slay[23], murder[17], kill[6], be put to death[1]

Modern preachers must be smarter than the Hebrew translators if they

claim that ratsach means "murder" exclusively. Muth, nakah, haraq,

zabach and ratsach appear to be spilled all over the bible in an

imprecise and overlapping jumble of contexts, in much the same way

modern writers will swap synonyms.

[end insert]

He then gives several examples, quoting chapter and verse, showing

both the modern translation and the original word used. It is clear

that if "ratsach" always means murder then the meanings of these

verses become completely different.

>May God bless,

May you get a brain and stop being so in-your-face rude.

>Carl

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:30:59 -0700, saints@nettally.com wrote:

>On Oct 4, 12:15 am, Meteorite Debris

><epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

>> Last time that great scribe MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> chipped away at

>> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>>

>>

>>

>> > A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."

>>

>> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that

>> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.

>>

>

>Barker isn't qualified as an expert in Biblical languages. His degree

>in Religion from Azusa Pacific University did not give him expert

>qualifications in Biblical languages, specifically in this case,

>Hebrew and Koine Greek. So your source is flawed. Actual Biblical

>language experts teach that both the Hebrew and Koine Greek that

>reference this commandment are most accurately translated as "to

>murder." The recognized scholarly sources such as Thayer's and

>Strong's support this as well. As do numerous other scholarly sources.

Only among those who want it to mean that becvause they're in denial.

Barker simply did hard work t hat anybody could have done, without an

axe to grind.

Why can't you assholes show a shred of honesty?

>It is becoming apparent that you are unable and/or unwilling to be

>intellectually honest on this point and would rather rely on

>unqualified sources (such as Dan Barker) rather than researching this

>correctly. As such your claims become moot.

Why are so many Christians such personal liars?

>May God bless,

Did you fart, in-yur-face moron?

>Carl

>my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/

>my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/