VENEZUELANS REJECT CHAVEZ'S PLANS! HEY LIEBERALS, ARE YOU PAYINGATTENTION???

Venezuelans Reject Chavez's Plans for Constitution (Update4)

By Matthew Walter and Helen Murphy

Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez suffered his

first electoral loss in nine years as voters turned down his plan to

revamp the constitution and cement his power.

Chavez conceded the outcome today, while saying his ideas are ``still

alive.''

``This is a democracy,'' the president said in Caracas. ``For me, this

isn't a defeat. This is for now.''

The loss signals waning support for Chavez's drive to bring socialism

to the region's fourth-biggest economy by concentrating power in his

hands and ramping up state control of private lives. Voters refused to

abolish presidential term limits or allow government censorship during

declared emergencies. Chavez also sought to shorten the work day and

end central bank autonomy.

``This is the first significant setback that Chavez has ever had,''

said Adam Isacson, director at the Center for International Policy in

Washington. ``He has lost popular support. He has lost support of some

of the army and the poor.''

He has also lost confidence of investors. The government's 9 1/4

percent dollar bond due in 2027 tumbled 22 percent this year, with

almost half the loss coming in the month before the referendum.

Oil Fuels Growth

Chavez's 69 proposed changes to the constitution were grouped into two

blocks. The first set was rejected 50.7 percent to 49.3 percent, the

second block 51.1 percent to 48.9 percent. About 8.88 million people

voted, or 56 percent of those eligible, according to a statement on

the election agency's Web site.

Venezuela's 9 1/4 percent bond due in 2027 rose 4.10 cents on the

dollar at 8:27 a.m. New York time, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.

The bond's yield fell 0.45 percentage point to 8.92 percent from 9.37

percent on Nov. 30.

Chavez's use of the words ``for now'' in his concession speech echo a

statement he made after his failed attempt to overthrow the government

in 1992. After that, ``for now'' became a rallying cry for his

supporters.

``I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few months he pushes most of

the ideas through the National Assembly,'' said Daniel Linsker, who

heads the Americas desk for Control Risks, a London-based business

risk consulting company. ``He comes out looking like a democrat;

Chavez is now legitimate and still looking for a way to remain in

office.''

`Empowered'

While oil exports fueled annual economic growth of more than 8 percent

over the past four years, the South American country has a credit

rating below investment grade. Its annual inflation rate, 17.2

percent, is the highest in the region.

``The opposition will emerge from its vote more energized and

empowered,'' said Gianfranco Bertozzi, a senior Latin America

economist for Lehman Brothers in New York. ``If handled carefully the

event could even herald a crumbling of the Bolivarian revolution,

although it's still early.''

Cheers, fireworks and the banging of pots and pans could be heard in a

mostly anti-Chavez Caracas neighborhood after the results were

announced. Supporters of the changes tore down posters that read ``Si

con Chavez.''

``The reform has just faded away, but our president is still with

us,'' said Yenier Bedoya, 22, a student and a nurse.

Four months after Chavez unveiled his plan to write a constitution

that would quicken his so-called Bolivarian socialist revolution, some

polls showed the referendum too close to call.

`Over the Top'

Opposition parties, student groups and some former allies, most

notably Chavez's ex-Defense Minister Raul Isaias Baduel, the general

who returned him to power after a 2002 coup, campaigned against the

proposal.

Their contention that the new constitution was a power grab resonated

with some of Chavez's supporters.

``President Chavez has given us much, but this time he's gone over the

top,'' Darwin Rodriguez, 23, a glass blower, said in an interview in

Caracas.

Baduel said after the results were announced that Chavez may continue

to push for the reforms he sought.

``We should be alert to the possibility that these changes will be

imposed through a different route than the constitution,'' he said in

comments broadcast by Globovision.

Demonstrations

Demonstrations turned violent at times over the past three months as

police regularly used tear gas and water cannons to control crowds of

protesters.

Chavez sought to fire up his backers with escalating attacks on the

U.S., foreign investors and the media in his final speeches before the

vote.

He told tens of thousands of supporters at a Nov. 30 rally that he was

prepared to cut off exports of oil to the U.S., Venezuela's biggest

trading partner, should the U.S. government try to stir up violence in

the country after the referendum. He also said he may nationalize

Spanish banks operating in the country to defend the ``dignity'' of

Venezuela, after Spanish King Juan Carlos I told him to ``shut up''

earlier this month.

Economists said the proposed changes to the constitution would curb

private investment and slow growth in Venezuela, South America's third-

biggest economy and its biggest oil exporter.

``The ball is in Chavez's court,'' said Teodoro Petkoff, a former

planning minister and editor of opposition newspaper Tal Cual, in

comments broadcast by Globovision. ``He can send a message to the

country: enough division, enough blaming, enough saying that if

someone is against him that person is against the world, a coup-

monger, a snake.''

Chavez said last week that if voters approve his plan, he's prepared

to stay in power until 2050.

``It's still too early for me to go,'' the former army lieutenant

colonel said Nov. 30. ``I'll give my life for Venezuela until the last

day.''

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lieberals need to be paying attention since they love more

government and more socialist programs.

On Dec 3, 8:35 am, Grandmaster Sensei Shaolin

<grandmastersenseishao...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Venezuelans Reject Chavez's Plans for Constitution (Update4)

>

> By Matthew Walter and Helen Murphy

>

> Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez suffered his

> first electoral loss in nine years as voters turned down his plan to

> revamp the constitution and cement his power.

>

> Chavez conceded the outcome today, while saying his ideas are ``still

> alive.''

>

> ``This is a democracy,'' the president said in Caracas. ``For me, this

> isn't a defeat. This is for now.''

>

> The loss signals waning support for Chavez's drive to bring socialism

> to the region's fourth-biggest economy by concentrating power in his

> hands and ramping up state control of private lives. Voters refused to

> abolish presidential term limits or allow government censorship during

> declared emergencies. Chavez also sought to shorten the work day and

> end central bank autonomy.

>

> ``This is the first significant setback that Chavez has ever had,''

> said Adam Isacson, director at the Center for International Policy in

> Washington. ``He has lost popular support. He has lost support of some

> of the army and the poor.''

>

> He has also lost confidence of investors. The government's 9 1/4

> percent dollar bond due in 2027 tumbled 22 percent this year, with

> almost half the loss coming in the month before the referendum.

>

> Oil Fuels Growth

>

> Chavez's 69 proposed changes to the constitution were grouped into two

> blocks. The first set was rejected 50.7 percent to 49.3 percent, the

> second block 51.1 percent to 48.9 percent. About 8.88 million people

> voted, or 56 percent of those eligible, according to a statement on

> the election agency's Web site.

>

> Venezuela's 9 1/4 percent bond due in 2027 rose 4.10 cents on the

> dollar at 8:27 a.m. New York time, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.

> The bond's yield fell 0.45 percentage point to 8.92 percent from 9.37

> percent on Nov. 30.

>

> Chavez's use of the words ``for now'' in his concession speech echo a

> statement he made after his failed attempt to overthrow the government

> in 1992. After that, ``for now'' became a rallying cry for his

> supporters.

>

> ``I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few months he pushes most of

> the ideas through the National Assembly,'' said Daniel Linsker, who

> heads the Americas desk for Control Risks, a London-based business

> risk consulting company. ``He comes out looking like a democrat;

> Chavez is now legitimate and still looking for a way to remain in

> office.''

>

> `Empowered'

>

> While oil exports fueled annual economic growth of more than 8 percent

> over the past four years, the South American country has a credit

> rating below investment grade. Its annual inflation rate, 17.2

> percent, is the highest in the region.

>

> ``The opposition will emerge from its vote more energized and

> empowered,'' said Gianfranco Bertozzi, a senior Latin America

> economist for Lehman Brothers in New York. ``If handled carefully the

> event could even herald a crumbling of the Bolivarian revolution,

> although it's still early.''

>

> Cheers, fireworks and the banging of pots and pans could be heard in a

> mostly anti-Chavez Caracas neighborhood after the results were

> announced. Supporters of the changes tore down posters that read ``Si

> con Chavez.''

>

> ``The reform has just faded away, but our president is still with

> us,'' said Yenier Bedoya, 22, a student and a nurse.

>

> Four months after Chavez unveiled his plan to write a constitution

> that would quicken his so-called Bolivarian socialist revolution, some

> polls showed the referendum too close to call.

>

> `Over the Top'

>

> Opposition parties, student groups and some former allies, most

> notably Chavez's ex-Defense Minister Raul Isaias Baduel, the general

> who returned him to power after a 2002 coup, campaigned against the

> proposal.

>

> Their contention that the new constitution was a power grab resonated

> with some of Chavez's supporters.

>

> ``President Chavez has given us much, but this time he's gone over the

> top,'' Darwin Rodriguez, 23, a glass blower, said in an interview in

> Caracas.

>

> Baduel said after the results were announced that Chavez may continue

> to push for the reforms he sought.

>

> ``We should be alert to the possibility that these changes will be

> imposed through a different route than the constitution,'' he said in

> comments broadcast by Globovision.

>

> Demonstrations

>

> Demonstrations turned violent at times over the past three months as

> police regularly used tear gas and water cannons to control crowds of

> protesters.

>

> Chavez sought to fire up his backers with escalating attacks on the

> U.S., foreign investors and the media in his final speeches before the

> vote.

>

> He told tens of thousands of supporters at a Nov. 30 rally that he was

> prepared to cut off exports of oil to the U.S., Venezuela's biggest

> trading partner, should the U.S. government try to stir up violence in

> the country after the referendum. He also said he may nationalize

> Spanish banks operating in the country to defend the ``dignity'' of

> Venezuela, after Spanish King Juan Carlos I told him to ``shut up''

> earlier this month.

>

> Economists said the proposed changes to the constitution would curb

> private investment and slow growth in Venezuela, South America's third-

> biggest economy and its biggest oil exporter.

>

> ``The ball is in Chavez's court,'' said Teodoro Petkoff, a former

> planning minister and editor of opposition newspaper Tal Cual, in

> comments broadcast by Globovision. ``He can send a message to the

> country: enough division, enough blaming, enough saying that if

> someone is against him that person is against the world, a coup-

> monger, a snake.''

>

> Chavez said last week that if voters approve his plan, he's prepared

> to stay in power until 2050.

>

> ``It's still too early for me to go,'' the former army lieutenant

> colonel said Nov. 30. ``I'll give my life for Venezuela until the last

> day.''

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> The Lieberals need to be paying attention since they love more

> government and more socialist programs.

Curious, that this is called an "electoral defeat". This wasn't an

election. It was a referendum on major constitutional changes. Being

a democratic leader, Chavez seeks popular mandates. He barely lost.

The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

understandable. He represents the people, and he will respect their

will. Of course, he could always have another referendum on these

issues!

>

> Curious, that this is called an "electoral defeat".

Becuase Chavez staged it that way with the slogan "Sigue con Chavez" roughly

" Yes let's go with Chavez."

http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

This wasn't an

> election. It was a referendum on major constitutional changes. Being

> a democratic leader, Chavez seeks popular mandates. He barely lost.

> The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

> understandable.

Utter cark. Many who were with him before went against him on this election.

They felt he was becoming anti democracy.

http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

He represents the people, and he will respect their

> will.

If he represented the people, he would never have proposed a situation where

he would be in power as a virutal dictator until he retired in 2050. If

indeed he retired. He represents Chavez's view of how things ought to be and

nothing else. Funny how left wingers are so hipped on one party and one

leader for life.

Of course, he could always have another referendum on these

> issues!

Of course he also controls the army so he doesnt have to. He wants to be

like your hero Castro and face no elections.

On Dec 3, 10:12 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

> > Curious, that this is called an "electoral defeat".

>

> Becuase Chavez staged it that way with the slogan "Sigue con Chavez" roughly

> " Yes let's go with Chavez."http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

>

> This wasn't an

>

> > election. It was a referendum on major constitutional changes. Being

> > a democratic leader, Chavez seeks popular mandates. He barely lost.

> > The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

> > understandable.

>

> Utter cark. Many who were with him before went against him on this election.

> They felt he was becoming anti democracy.http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

>

> He represents the people, and he will respect their

>

> > will.

>

> If he represented the people, he would never have proposed a situation where

> he would be in power as a virutal dictator until he retired in 2050. If

> indeed he retired. He represents Chavez's view of how things ought to be and

> nothing else. Funny how left wingers are so hipped on one party and one

> leader for life.

>

> Of course, he could always have another referendum on these

>

> > issues!

>

> Of course he also controls the army so he doesnt have to. He wants to be

> like your hero Castro and face no elections.

Castro isn't my hero. But his government is superior to most in Latin

America: better distribution of wealth, higher average life

expectancy, less crime, better health care, better education. Which

is why Latin America is going communist. Thank George Bush: Bush =

"Instant Communism"!

> The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

> understandable.

More on how your fine left wing dicator operates:

http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

"Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> wrote in message

news:4ZV4j.55$pq.26@newsfe24.lga...

>

>> The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

>> understandable.

> More on how your fine left wing dicator operates:

> http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

Why are you so interested in Chavez?

--

Wayne Dobson

AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"

On Dec 3, 10:20 am, "Wayne Dobson" <nos...@noaddress.com> wrote:

> "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote in message

>

> news:4ZV4j.55$pq.26@newsfe24.lga...

>

>

>

> >> The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

> >> understandable.

> > More on how your fine left wing dicator operates:

> >http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

>

> Why are you so interested in Chavez?

>

> --

> Wayne Dobson

> AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"

Because he's easier to pick on than Communist China!!!

"Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1999@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:377b7481-092e-4310-bd67-36c9a9438aaa@d61g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

> On Dec 3, 10:12 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

>> > Curious, that this is called an "electoral defeat".

>>

>> Becuase Chavez staged it that way with the slogan "Sigue con Chavez"

>> roughly

>> " Yes let's go with

>> Chavez."http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

> Castro isn't my hero. But his government is superior to most in Latin

> America: better distribution of wealth, higher average life

> expectancy, less crime, better health care, better education.

More left wing cark. Is that why so many people try to float out of there?

Think how much better off the Germans were under Hitler. There is no

difference between Castro and Hitler.

"there are signs that the Chavez magic is starting to fade. Inflation is

rising, while three years of price controls mean that basic foods such as

milk, eggs, and flour are often unattainable. Violent crime is rampant,

especially in poorer areas."

Another socialist failure looming.

Which

> is why Latin America is going communist. Thank George Bush: Bush =

> "Instant Communism"!

What will you do when Bush is no longer in office? Who will you blame for

every ill that besets the world? Who will you blame for your jock itch and

plantar warts? More left wing cark. Get real.

"Wayne Dobson" <nospam@noaddress.com> wrote in message

news:61W4j.2189$kt3.412@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> "Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> wrote in message

> news:4ZV4j.55$pq.26@newsfe24.lga...

>>

>>> The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

>>> understandable.

>> More on how your fine left wing dicator operates:

>> http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

>

> Why are you so interested in Chavez?

>

Cause he is right below us. Are you not interested in the rest of Europe?

>

> Because he's easier to pick on than Communist China!!!

They are a hell of a long way away and very interesting too. I am picking on

you dolt.

Which

> is why Latin America is going communist. Thank George Bush: Bush =

> "Instant Communism"!

Should we also thank George Bush for the Venezuelan people seeing through

your fine left wing dictator and rejecting him as dictator for life? Face it

dim wit the people of South America make there own choices for better or

worse and have to live with them. Unlike you, they should not blame someone

else for their fuckups.

On Dec 3, 10:50 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

> Which> is why Latin America is going communist. Thank George Bush: Bush =

> > "Instant Communism"!

>

> Should we also thank George Bush for the Venezuelan people seeing through

> your fine left wing dictator and rejecting him as dictator for life? Face it

> dim wit the people of South America make there own choices for better or

> worse and have to live with them. Unlike you, they should not blame someone

> else for their fuckups.

I see you're a martial arts and gun freak. Why am I not surprised?

I realize the concept that people should work together to try to solve

social problems would be difficult for someone who sees destruction

and killing as the only useful forms of social interaction to

comprehend, but there are, believe it or not, other ways of doing

things.

Actually, you've already lost. The only way to keep the U.S. economy

going to move to the left -- socialism. That's why they're arranging

to freeze mortgage payments. You know, getting the government to help

people with their problems. The kind of stuff people like you really

hate.

"Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1906@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:34526e55-3cb7-40ea-a814-8494fe9f006a@s36g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> On Dec 3, 10:50 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

>> Which> is why Latin America is going communist. Thank George Bush:

>> Bush =

>> > "Instant Communism"!

>>

>> Should we also thank George Bush for the Venezuelan people seeing through

>> your fine left wing dictator and rejecting him as dictator for life? Face

>> it

>> dim wit the people of South America make there own choices for better or

>> worse and have to live with them. Unlike you, they should not blame

>> someone

>> else for their fuckups.

>

> I see you're a martial arts and gun freak.

No shit. Well this newsgroup is titled recreational martial arts last time I

looked. Most of the people here are martial arts freaks. So why are you

posting here. You lost? What are you some kind of wimpy please call the

authorities these meanies may hurt me freak? I think there may be a few more

freaks like me here so I would watch your tongue.

Why am I not surprised?

I give up? Why are you not surprised. Maybe because you are real stupid and

wimpy cross poster?

>

> I realize the concept that people should work together to try to solve

> social problems would be difficult for someone who sees destruction

> and killing as the only useful forms of social interaction to

> comprehend, but there are, believe it or not, other ways of doing

> things.

Really do tell; and tell that to the bully, the mugger, the home invader,

the next person who shakes you down for your lunch money. You gonna talk em

out of it. Tell em how society failed them and that you should sit down and

talk it out. I realize the concept one should learn how to take care of

themselves is not exactly your way of doing things; but freaky as it seems

to you it is mine and a few others here.

>

> Actually, you've already lost. The only way to keep the U.S. economy

> going to move to the left -- socialism.

Really. How far you gonna move it dumbo? You gonna destroy all incentive

with it?

That's why they're arranging

> to freeze mortgage payments. You know, getting the government to help

> people with their problems.

They aint gonna freeze it forever dumbo. What's the matter you have not

figured out why rent controls dont work? The dont work because there is no

incentive to build new buildings. Temporary measures to help people is not

socialism dumbo.

The kind of stuff people like you really

> hate.

The kind of stuff I love is having people being able to take care of

themselves. Being individuals. Not being dependent on government to do

everything for them so it can control their lives, tell them what to think,

tell them how to act, tell them how to vote, tell them there should be only

one way, tell them there should be only one leader, tell them they should be

regulated for their own good, tell them they should not own weapons, tell

them they should let the authorites take care of any unpleasantness in their

lives, tell them they should not study martial arts cause they might be able

to, heaven forbid, defend themselves.

I love all those things that make me free and you hate.

Get lost you wimp ass freak.

On Dec 3, 11:22 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

> "Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>

> news:34526e55-3cb7-40ea-a814-8494fe9f006a@s36g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

>

> > On Dec 3, 10:50 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

> >> Which> is why Latin America is going communist. Thank George Bush:

> >> Bush =

> >> > "Instant Communism"!

>

> >> Should we also thank George Bush for the Venezuelan people seeing through

> >> your fine left wing dictator and rejecting him as dictator for life? Face

> >> it

> >> dim wit the people of South America make there own choices for better or

> >> worse and have to live with them. Unlike you, they should not blame

> >> someone

> >> else for their fuckups.

>

> > I see you're a martial arts and gun freak.

>

> No shit. Well this newsgroup is titled recreational martial arts last time I

> looked. Most of the people here are martial arts freaks. So why are you

> posting here. You lost? What are you some kind of wimpy please call the

> authorities these meanies may hurt me freak? I think there may be a few more

> freaks like me here so I would watch your tongue.

>

> Why am I not surprised?

>

> I give up? Why are you not surprised. Maybe because you are real stupid and

> wimpy cross poster?

>

>

>

> > I realize the concept that people should work together to try to solve

> > social problems would be difficult for someone who sees destruction

> > and killing as the only useful forms of social interaction to

> > comprehend, but there are, believe it or not, other ways of doing

> > things.

>

> Really do tell; and tell that to the bully, the mugger, the home invader,

> the next person who shakes you down for your lunch money. You gonna talk em

> out of it. Tell em how society failed them and that you should sit down and

> talk it out. I realize the concept one should learn how to take care of

> themselves is not exactly your way of doing things; but freaky as it seems

> to you it is mine and a few others here.

>

>

>

> > Actually, you've already lost. The only way to keep the U.S. economy

> > going to move to the left -- socialism.

>

> Really. How far you gonna move it dumbo? You gonna destroy all incentive

> with it?

>

> That's why they're arranging

>

> > to freeze mortgage payments. You know, getting the government to help

> > people with their problems.

>

> They aint gonna freeze it forever dumbo. What's the matter you have not

> figured out why rent controls dont work? The dont work because there is no

> incentive to build new buildings. Temporary measures to help people is not

> socialism dumbo.

>

> The kind of stuff people like you really> hate.

>

> The kind of stuff I love is having people being able to take care of

> themselves. Being individuals. Not being dependent on government to do

> everything for them so it can control their lives, tell them what to think,

> tell them how to act, tell them how to vote, tell them there should be only

> one way, tell them there should be only one leader, tell them they should be

> regulated for their own good, tell them they should not own weapons, tell

> them they should let the authorites take care of any unpleasantness in their

> lives, tell them they should not study martial arts cause they might be able

> to, heaven forbid, defend themselves.

> I love all those things that make me free and you hate.

> Get lost you wimp ass freak.

You're so witty!

You're so witty!

And truthful, You dumbass cross poster.

> > Should we also thank George Bush for the Venezuelan people seeing through

> > your fine left wing dictator and rejecting him as dictator for life? Face it

> > dim wit the people of South America make there own choices for better or

> > worse and have to live with them. Unlike you, they should not blame someone

> > else for their fuckups.

>

> I see you're a martial arts and gun freak. Why am I not surprised?

Someone who believes that he has not only the right but a

reponsibility to protect himself and his family; what exactly is it

about this that bothers you? Do you honestly believe that the

government can protect you from everything? Have you not noticed fact

that violent crime tends to RISE in areas where people are deprived of

their rights regarding self-defense?

> I realize the concept that people should work together to try to solve

> social problems would be difficult for someone who sees destruction

> and killing as the only useful forms of social interaction to

> comprehend, but there are, believe it or not, other ways of doing

> things.

What is very easy to comprehend is that socialism simply does not

work. Name one instance where it has improved the lives of those it

has been imposed opon? Why do you think the people of Venezuela

opposed his plans to go further down that path?

> Actually, you've already lost. The only way to keep the U.S. economy

> going to move to the left -- socialism.

Wrong. Moving to the left is a large part of what caused our problems

in the first place; moving further to the left would be a disaster.

The US became a global power via capitialism - the free market. It

has been proven time and time again.

> That's why they're arranging to freeze mortgage payments.

The fact that "they" are arranging anything at all part of the

problem.

> You know, getting the government to help

> people with their problems. The kind of stuff people like you really

> hate.

Ah, yes... the mantra of socialism. Help people overcome the problems

you imposed on them in the first place. All because you're the ones

who care.

On Dec 3, 11:32 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

> You're so witty!

>

> And truthful, You dumbass cross poster.

I'm just curious, what exactly is the difference between a "dumbass"

and a "smartass"?

On Dec 3, 11:36 am, Shuurai <Shuura...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > Should we also thank George Bush for the Venezuelan people seeing through

> > > your fine left wing dictator and rejecting him as dictator for life? Face it

> > > dim wit the people of South America make there own choices for better or

> > > worse and have to live with them. Unlike you, they should not blame someone

> > > else for their fuckups.

>

> > I see you're a martial arts and gun freak. Why am I not surprised?

>

> Someone who believes that he has not only the right but a

> reponsibility to protect himself and his family; what exactly is it

> about this that bothers you? Do you honestly believe that the

> government can protect you from everything? Have you not noticed fact

> that violent crime tends to RISE in areas where people are deprived of

> their rights regarding self-defense?

>

> > I realize the concept that people should work together to try to solve

> > social problems would be difficult for someone who sees destruction

> > and killing as the only useful forms of social interaction to

> > comprehend, but there are, believe it or not, other ways of doing

> > things.

>

> What is very easy to comprehend is that socialism simply does not

> work. Name one instance where it has improved the lives of those it

> has been imposed opon? Why do you think the people of Venezuela

> opposed his plans to go further down that path?

>

> > Actually, you've already lost. The only way to keep the U.S. economy

> > going to move to the left -- socialism.

>

> Wrong. Moving to the left is a large part of what caused our problems

> in the first place; moving further to the left would be a disaster.

> The US became a global power via capitialism - the free market. It

> has been proven time and time again.

>

> > That's why they're arranging to freeze mortgage payments.

>

> The fact that "they" are arranging anything at all part of the

> problem.

>

> > You know, getting the government to help

> > people with their problems. The kind of stuff people like you really

> > hate.

>

> Ah, yes... the mantra of socialism. Help people overcome the problems

> you imposed on them in the first place. All because you're the ones

> who care.

So, when are you signing up for Iraq, tough guy? I promise, I'll see

you off at the airport. Have a nice trip.

A dumbass likes to ask questions like: " I'm just curious, what exactly is

the difference between a "dumbass"

> and a "smartass"?

Does that answer your question, dumbass?

On Dec 3, 11:47 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

> A dumbass likes to ask questions like: " I'm just curious, what exactly is

> the difference between a "dumbass"> and a "smartass"?

>

> Does that answer your question, dumbass?

You're so witty! And you're so good at discerning irony!

>

> So, when are you signing up for Iraq, tough guy? I promise, I'll see

> you off at the airport. Have a nice trip.

Right after you sign up for an NGO in the Sudan, Mr. Save the World. I

promise I will see you off at the airport. Have a nice trip.

On Dec 3, 11:50 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

> > So, when are you signing up for Iraq, tough guy? I promise, I'll see

> > you off at the airport. Have a nice trip.

>

> Right after you sign up for an NGO in the Sudan, Mr. Save the World. I

> promise I will see you off at the airport. Have a nice trip.

But..But...But...aren't you going to defend us against all those

Muslim terrorists just the way George Bush wants you to? What's all

all that martial arts and all those guns for, unless to defend the

country? ARE YOU A COWARD!!!??

You gun-freak loon?

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:15:58 -0600, "Herbert Cannon"

<hcannon18@cox.net> wrote:

>

>> The hatred of the right wing for this fine, democratic leader is

>> understandable.

>More on how your fine left wing dicator operates:

He asked the people through a referendum if he could have more power

and the people said no through the ballot box.

And now you call him a "dictator" - as if dictators hold referenda!

LOL. You've got you labels and definitions mixed up somewhere

>http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10214956

Just a story about the background to the referendum.

Do you always think in a circle?

"Jerry Kraus" <jkraus_1906@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:a5068978-cecc-4b13-ad15-01814887c58e@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> On Dec 3, 11:50 am, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:

>> > So, when are you signing up for Iraq, tough guy? I promise, I'll see

>> > you off at the airport. Have a nice trip.

>>

>> Right after you sign up for an NGO in the Sudan, Mr. Save the World. I

>> promise I will see you off at the airport. Have a nice trip.

>

> But..But...But...aren't you going to defend us against all those

> Muslim terrorists just the way George Bush wants you to?

Naw I am gonna let them kill you. In fact, if they pay me enough, I might

even consider doing it for them. One less helpless dependent mouth to feed

wont make any difference in defense. Probably improve it.

What's all

> all that martial arts and all those guns for, unless to defend the

> country?

To defend me.

ARE YOU A COWARD!!!??

Nope, unlike you, I am quite capable of defending myself and dont expect

someone else to do it for me. That is the coward's way.

> You gun-freak loon?

Yup that is why I can defend myself and you cannot.