Blasphemy Challenge

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Sick of those damn theists ?

 

Here, take the Blasphemy chalenge at :

 

http://www.blasphemychallenge.com

 

 

or see their video here at :

 

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=i7QVbJnSPQE]YouTube - The Blasphemy Challenge[/ame]

 

Take the challenge and get a great book for free, explaining why religion is just a pile of crap.

[timesjoke]

 

Take the challenge and get a great book for free, explaining why religion is just a pile of crap.

 

And this makes my point of how intolerant Athiests are.

 

No wonder they have killed hundreds of millions of people when they get control of a large army.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

That website is sick. Created by sick people, and with sick intentions... Here was a great movie quote...

 

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was making the world believe he didn't exist."

 

Think about that one.

[eddo]

Sick of those damn theists ?

Here, take the Blasphemy chalenge at :

http://www.blasphemychallenge.com

or see their video here at :

YouTube - The Blasphemy Challenge

Take the challenge and get a great book for free, explaining why religion is just a pile of crap.

 

 

This post confuses me...

 

 

Did you not see the beginning of the otherpost?

 

Or are you just trying to get the exact same discussion started?

[ToriAllen]

Sick of those damn theists ?

 

Here, take the Blasphemy chalenge at :

 

or see their video here at :

 

Take the challenge and get a great book for free, explaining why religion is just a pile of crap.

 

I want you to explain to me why I'm ignorant, or brainwashed, or whatever other terms atheists are so fond of, for believing in a higher power? Why is it so irrational to believe in God? I don't want you to give me quotes or websites or videos. I want you to explain in your own words using your own logical thoughts why I can not be an intelligent, well informed, self deciding, logical, rational, educated believer. Once you do that, then I'll discuss this issue with you further. Show me that you are a free thinker that isn't 'brainwashed' before you start pointing your finger at me. You can't call me brainwashed and not state one origional thought yourself. Get me?

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

And this makes my point of how intolerant Athiests are.

 

No wonder they have killed hundreds of millions of people when they get control of a large army.

 

Well thanks for that TJ.

 

I can clearly see how someone who could say that, could leap into killing hundreds of millions of people. It's just such a rational, inteligent assumption to make isn't it ?

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

I want you to explain to me why I'm ignorant, or brainwashed, or whatever other terms atheists are so fond of, for believing in a higher power?

I dont think theists are any more ignorant than anyone else. Brain washed, now this is a different matter. Most Sunday only theists are not brainwashed in my opinion. They do it presumably to stop getting nagged at or whatever.

But there is a certain type of theist, who, it is pointless discussing the matter with. They are determined at any price to cling to the silly ideas of their faith. One minute they seem perfectly normal, they accept science. They agree that e=mc squared, and that sound travels at X speed.No one asks that you simply believe these things. Science can prove these things. This is the only way to know that something is correct and believable. But strangely when religious talk starts, they get all defensive about the ridiculous, believing that some bloke once walked on water, died and flew into some pretty heaven, and cured diseases with a touch. Why does anyone believe these ridiculous lies.

 

Why is it so irrational to believe in God?

 

Because there is no evidence for god.

 

I don't want you to give me quotes or websites or videos. I want you to explain in your own words using your own logical thoughts why I can not be an intelligent, well informed, self deciding, logical, rational, educated believer. Once you d

o that, then I'll discuss this issue with you further. Show me that you are a free thinker that isn't 'brainwashed' before you start pointing your finger at me. You can't call me brainwashed and not state one origional thought yourself. Get me?

Do you really believe that a god exists because some old guy a few millenia ago had a great idea to apply to all those superstitious fools ? It's a business, thats all. And you have been suckered. Do you have any idea how silly you seem grovelling around on your knees to some imaginary sky-faerie ?

 

How about this. I have had a revelation. I was drawn into my garden, and in the far corner found god. God is good, unless you do not believe in Him. So all you suckers had better believe - and fill my collection plate.Otherwise you will be tormented for all eternity by slimy green things with pointed sticks in a very cold ugly land.

 

God is a pebble, and if you could but see, you would notice that the sun always shines upon the one true god, and pure rainwater drizzles on Him eternally. Now, save your soul. Give homage to god. undertake a pilgrimage to my garden, and confess all your sins before the god. But undertake also to accept that I alone am the custodian of the pebble. There will be a charge to enter my garden-the temple of god.

You have already completely dismissed my god.And rightly too. But my god is just as likely to exist as your god. Why is it that you believe Abraham's bull , but not mine ?

 

Both tales are bunkum, and are as equally unlikely to be true, as they are likely to be untrue. Yet you steadfastly believe the lies you have been told. Yes I do believe that some theists are indeed brainwashed. their belief is total and irrational. Here are some other groups that I believe are brainwashed: David Koresh followers/ Fundamental Islamists/ Hardcore Nazi's and Communists/ Moonies. There are probably many more.

 

All of these people have lost free thought, and will believe what ever their masters tell them, including giving up there lives for the cause. They think there are no consequences for them in doing what they do, as it is all the will of their god. Religion is an unhealthy disease turning ordinary people into non thinkers who accept any ridiculous lies they are told.

[ToriAllen]

I dont think theists are any more ignorant than anyone else. Brain washed, now this is a different matter. Most Sunday only theists are not brainwashed in my opinion. They do it presumably to stop getting nagged at or whatever.

But there is a certain type of theist, who, it is pointless discussing the matter with. They are determined at any price to cling to the silly ideas of their faith. One minute they seem perfectly normal, they accept science. They agree that e=mc squared, and that sound travels at X speed.No one asks that you simply believe these things. Science can prove these things. This is the only way to know that something is correct and believable. But strangely when religious talk starts, they get all defensive about the ridiculous, believing that some bloke once walked on water, died and flew into some pretty heaven, and cured diseases with a touch. Why does anyone believe these ridiculous lies.

I think you have this backwards. I think those that fight against certain parts of science are ignorant. They do not understand that there is no contradiction between religion and science. I think brainwashed is a very strong word to use for people who believe in God. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Sunday only’ theists just going to avoid nagging. Nagging from who? There is this one huge concept in Christianity that I think is too often underplayed. It is a little thing called ‘free will’. No one can make anyone believe. You either do or you don’t. I do. I believe in God. I believe in heaven. I believe in hell. I believe in Jesus, the bloke who walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the sick, was killed, flew to hell, and then flew to heaven. I generally stay out of religious debates because I also believe in free will. Believing in God does not make me brainwashed any more than not believing makes you brainwashed. It is a choice I have made based on my life experiences and what I have seen of the world.

 

Because there is no evidence for god.

There is plenty of evidence for God. You are here aren’t you? Do you know that a great deal of modern science is made up of these things called theories? Why are they called theories? Because, they can’t be proven. Sure there is evidence, but no proof, and yet many people believe in these theories. They teach these theories to other people and many scientists will tell you that these theories are correct. They just know these theories in their minds are fact even though they can not yet prove them. Some of us just know that God exists. There is evidence everywhere, but no proof. There will never be proof because religion is ‘faith based’. Again we are back to free will. If there was proof of God then there would be no reason for people to make a choice, no reason for faith, and ultimately, no free will. It is no great feat to believe in something that is right in front of you. There is no test in character involved in that. I couldn’t imagine a life without faith, where everything was already known and easily proven. How boring that would be. I would much rather believe that there is something more to life and science and the world than what I see.

Do you really believe that a god exists because some old guy a few millenia ago had a great idea to apply to all those superstitious fools? It's a business, thats all. And you have been suckered. Do you have any idea how silly you seem grovelling around on your knees to some imaginary sky-faerie ?

The idea of God has been prevalent in every civilization in the world. I would hardly attempt to attribute that idea to ‘some old guy a few millennia ago’. I would agree that there are a few preachers and churches out there that treat religion like a business, but there are many who don’t. What of them? What about the churches that use the money they get to help the community? Personally, I give my tithe to charity, but there are plenty of churches out there that are not in the ‘take your money’ business. First of all, most preachers are only preachers, and as they must feed and clothe themselves and their families and also pay the same house payments, electricity bills, and water bills as everyone else, they do take part of the tithe as a pay check. Isn’t it a little unrealistic of you to expect them to pull food and clothes out of thin air?

You keep referring to God as a ‘sky-faerie’. Don’t you think that is a little derogatory? Kind of a bit rude to me as well considering I believe in this ‘sky-faerie’ you are trying so harm to insult. It would be nice if you would at least respect me enough not to be deliberately demeaning to my beliefs, even if you don’t agree with them. I have a much different view of God. The ultimate scientist, artist, and philosopher.

 

 

How about this. I have had a revelation. I was drawn into my garden, and in the far corner found god. God is good, unless you do not believe in Him. So all you suckers had better believe - and fill my collection plate.Otherwise you will be tormented for all eternity by slimy green things with pointed sticks in a very cold ugly land.

 

God is a pebble, and if you could but see, you would notice that the sun always shines upon the one true god, and pure rainwater drizzles on Him eternally. Now, save your soul. Give homage to god. undertake a pilgrimage to my garden, and confess all your sins before the god. But undertake also to accept that I alone am the custodian of the pebble. There will be a charge to enter my garden-the temple of god.

 

You have already completely dismissed my god.And rightly too. But my god is just as likely to exist as your god. Why is it that you believe Abraham's bull , but not mine ?

Both tales are bunkum, and are as equally unlikely to be true, as they are likely to be untrue. Yet you steadfastly believe the lies you have been told. Yes I do believe that some theists are indeed brainwashed.

LOL. Okay, first of all, since you don’t believe in God, and have made that quite clear, I would question any claim by you about a special relationship with Him. Those questions would obviously deepen when you start asking for money. If you are referring to people in general and not just me, I’m sure you could find a nice little following for your new Rock religion, Rockists if you will. Just look at Scientology. Some people are really stupid. The difference with Christianity is it is actually connected with the Jewish religion which can be traced back almost as far as written history. That means my religion is much more likely to be true, and much more likely to be traced back to the source.

[ToriAllen]

their belief is total and irrational. Here are some other groups that I believe are brainwashed: David Koresh followers/ Fundamental Islamists/ Hardcore Nazi's and Communists/ Moonies. There are probably many more.

Who decides what is rational and what is irrational. Where is that line drawn? Is any belief that is 'total' irrational? Does that mean Christians and Atheists are irrational because they leave no room for doubt one way or the other, leaving agnostics as the only rational beings? What about those scientists that I referred to above? Is their belief that a certain theory is true irrational? You mention groups that are specifically held to be bad or evil. What about NASCAR fans or football fans that believe that is the best sport on earth and schedule their entire lives around the sports season. Aren’t they irrationally brainwashed as well. I bet some of them are even atheists or agnostics. Just because a belief is total, doesn’t make it irrational. I have a total belief in God. I have a total belief in the Bible. I have a total belief in Jesus. My belief in God, though complete, is not irrational. Science has no explanation for the cause of the ‘big bang’ or any other theory of how the universe came into existence; therefore it is rational to believe that there was some greater power that was the cause of everything else. Believing that matter can appear out of nothing without acknowledging God, now that is irrational in my opinion. I believe that God did his best to reach out and talk to man through the Bible but as we are stupid, he had it written on a 2nd grade level and left out all of the deep and extensive scientific explanations. We would eventually find that stuff out for ourselves. The Bible is full or morals and stories of what to and what not to do. Anyone who would expect to open the Bible and find all of the information contained in the volumes and volumes of scientific articles and history books is irrational. Finally I believe that God came to earth as a man and walked around, because it is difficult to understand anyone until you have walked in their shoes. If your choices of ‘God in the flesh’ come down to a guy that fed the hungry and healed the sick eventually allowing himself to be crucified without putting up any fight and without trying to raise his followers up into a rebellion, verses a guy that got his followers to poison themselves and their children because he was too much of a coward to die alone, I think I’ll choose the first one. Anyone that would attempt to compare the two is irrational. Anyone who would try to claim Jesus was ‘in it for the money’ is irrational since I seem to remember a quote about a rich man, a camel, and the eye of a needle.

 

All of these people have lost free thought, and will believe what ever their masters tell them, including giving up there lives for the cause. They think there are no consequences for them in doing what they do, as it is all the will of their god. Religion is an unhealthy disease turning ordinary people into non thinkers who accept any ridiculous lies they are told.

The faith is not flawed, the belief is not flawed, but much of the ‘religion’ is. I will give you that. I am not sure who told you that Christians give up their freedom of thought. I am a non-denominational Christian. I have been to just about every different denomination of church and I do not agree with some of the concepts that are taught by some of the churches, but that comes down to man interpreting the will of God. Because man is flawed, this interpretation is sometimes flawed. The fact is, anyone is free to think anything they want. You are free to think God doesn’t exist, and I am free to think he does. Even within the Christian religion there is a great deal of variety in the thoughts of Christians. The only constants within the Christian religion are a belief in God, a respect for the Bible as the word of God (whether taken as strict meaning or figurative meaning), and a belief in Jesus as God incarnate. Really, I think those are the only ones that matter.

As for consequences and disregard for life, this has nothing to do with the belief in God. You seem to be referring to the manipulation of religion by men in order to fulfill their own intentions. This is very different than belief in God. I put my faith in no man. Men are inherently flawed and too often have their own motivations driving them. Those that follow these men are usually not very strong in their own beliefs and convictions. They are weak minded and their actions have more to do with their own ignorance than with their belief in God. King James I had the Bible translated because many of the common folks that could not read Latin were being manipulated by the clergy and other political leaders and were willing to do whatever the church asked of them ‘in the name of God’. It was not their faith that was to blame, but their ignorance of that faith. That is still true today in a lot of situations.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

I think you have this backwards. I think those that fight against certain parts of science are ignorant. They do not understand that there is no contradiction between religion and science.

 

I think ignorant is the wrong word to describe such people. Despite proof and evidence they deny reality because it contradicts what they choose to believe. They choose to believe the nonsensible because they have had the nonsensible crammed into their heads from an early age. It seems to have affected their ability to process informationand deal with rational thought. I think brainwashed is not too strong a term to use here. Repeatedly telling a prisoner what you want them to eventually come to believe is a technique that seems to work.

 

Little children are of course prisoners. They must be at home with their parents. Similarly, they must be at school weekdays. If they have religious parents, and attend a religious school, is it any wonder they become the unquestioning cabbages their parents were.

 

brainwashed is a very strong word to use for people who believe in God. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Sunday only’ theists just going to avoid nagging.

 

These are people who go to church on Sundays only because they feel they have to to appease others. They dont really believe. They do it to avoid arguments with more religious parents, bosses, neighbours, pushy clergy etc.

 

Nagging from who?

 

see above

 

 

There is this one huge concept in Christianity that I think is too often underplayed. It is a little thing called ‘free will’. No one can make anyone believe.

I disagree, you can, its called brainwashing. People can be brought to believe I think. Just look at Koresh and the moonies, they do this all the while. First isolate the victim, then set about indoctrinating the victim. Spend as much time as is necessary. The experience is so destabilising that the victims loses control. You will know about Stockholm syndrome, which of course is similar. The victim comes to love his/her tormentor/jailer, and seeks to please them with compliance.

 

You either do or you don’t. I do. I believe in God. I believe in heaven. I believe in hell. I believe in Jesus, the bloke who walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the sick, was killed, flew to hell, and then flew to heaven. I generally stay out of religious debates because I also believe in free will. Believing in God does not make me brainwashed any more than not believing makes you brainwashed. It is a choice I have made based on my life experiences and what I have seen of the world.

 

Is it really a choice that you have made ? I believe that choice was made for you long ago by your parents and other "guardians" teachers, priests etc. Theists have even infiltrated the Girl Guides Movement, The Scouts, The boys Brigade, so that they can gain more time with children to more thoroughly indoctrinate children. It is not right that you should have been exposed to this tosh as an impressionable child.

 

 

There is plenty of evidence for God. You are here aren’t you?

 

My presence in the world does not betoken a god.Biology can now explain my presence in the world

 

Do you know that a great deal of modern science is made up of these things called theories? Why are they called theories? Because, they can’t be proven. Sure there is evidence, but no proof, and yet many people believe in these theories.

 

Yes they are called theories because they cannot be proven. Your god is a theory. Darwins explanation of evolution is a theory. When a theory can at last be proven, it is elevated to law - scientific law. e=mc squared is law. So is y=mx+c.

 

 

They teach these theories to other people and many scientists will tell you that these theories are correct.

 

Any scientist who says that a theory IS correct, is not much of a scientist. Expecting people to believe things which cannot be proven is more the behaviour of a theist.

 

They just know these theories in their minds are fact even though they can not yet prove them.

 

Some scientists believe that Darwins theories are correct. But a scientist should never describe them as such. It is not scientific to do so, given that they are simply theories.

 

Some of us just know that God exists. There is evidence everywhere, but no proof.

 

I see no evidence, and no proof.

 

There will never be proof because religion is ‘faith based’.

 

 

So why believe a theory ? especially one about flying blokes, some with wings, cures for incurable diseases and water that suddenly changes form into wine because the special bloke fancies a drink ? Its a bit absurd dont you think ?

 

Again we are back to free will. If there was proof of God then there would be no reason for people to make a choice no reason for faith, and ultimately, no free will.

 

You dont suddenly loose free will, when you stop believing in flying dead blokes going to heaven, and monsters with stars on their many pronged horns.

 

It is no great feat to believe in something that is right in front of you. There is no test in character involved in that. I couldn’t imagine a life without faith, where everything was already known and easily proven. How boring that would be. I would much rather believe that there is something more to life and science and the world than what I see.

 

The idea of God has been prevalent in every civilization in the world.

 

Yes, Gods are everywhere, and always have been everywhere. Most people who ever lived were theists. They have spent millenia killing their co-theists for believing in the wrong god. They also like to target Atheists too. Theists are a dangerous group, much more so than Atheists. TJ is completely wrong in his assertion that Atheists have killed 100 million people. If this number of people have been killed in the past, I think it is much more likely that Theists did this crime.

 

I would hardly attempt to attribute that idea to ‘some old guy a few millennia ago’.

 

I was referring to Abraham, the guy who started all this Christian/Jewish/Islam nonsense. You must remember him. He's the bloke who came down the mountain with the stone tablets he left there the night before.

 

I would agree that there are a few preachers and churches out there that treat religion like a business,

 

I agree

 

but there are many who don’t. What of them?

 

Its still fantastical nonsense

 

What about the churches that use the money they get to help the community? Personally, I give my tithe to charity, but there are plenty of churches out there that are not in the ‘take your money’ business. First of all, most preachers are only preachers, and as they must feed and clothe themselves and their families and also pay the same house payments, electricity bills, and water bills as everyone else, they do take part of the tithe as a pay check. Isn’t it a little unrealistic of you to expect them to pull food and clothes out of thin air?

 

You keep referring to God as a ‘sky-faerie’. Don’t you think that is a little derogatory? Kind of a bit rude to me as well considering I believe in this ‘sky-faerie’ you are trying so harm to insult. It would be nice if you would at least respect me enough not to be deliberately demeaning to my beliefs, even if you don’t agree with them. I have a much different view of God. The ultimate scientist, artist, and philosopher.

 

Come on, heaven is up there in the sky, right ? And faeries fly just like the special guy dont they ? I thought sky faerie was a good name. So what shall I call the special guy ? god wont do. It sticks in my throat.

 

 

 

LOL. Okay, first of all, since you don’t believe in God, and have made that quite clear, I would question any claim by you about a special relationship with Him. Those questions would obviously deepen when you start asking for money. If you are referring to people in general and not just me, I’m sure you could find a nice little following for your new Rock religion, Rockists if you will. Just look at Scientology. Some people are really stupid. The difference with Christianity is it is actually connected with the Jewish religion which can be traced back almost as far as written history. That means my religion is much more likely to be true, and much more likely to be traced back to the source.

 

Please do not liken The One True Pebble to the lowly rock religion. The rock is a mean cheap thing made entirely of calcium carbonate. The One True Pebble is formed in the godly tetrahedral shape of pure carbon.

 

Earlier today, I drew near to that sacred place where dwells The Pebble, whereupon my prose grew flowery once again. Great visions did I behold there. A host of sulphur and brimstone came crashing in upon a screaming multitude of non-believers. And great whorls of tornadoes grew fear which tightly closed about them. The brooding sky grew dark.In the upper fermament, no sun or stars shone to offer consolation to the desolate damned below. The green slimy things tormented the non believers with pointed sticks. All lay naked in the freezing timeless bitterness without so much as a single loincloth. One lay amongst them called Brian who clung to a single sandal. He had spent his life worshiping the wrong god, and so, had been brought unto this awful pit of suffering.

 

Your time is near Tori.. The word has been given unto you. Repent and submit to Her Will. Become a Pebblist before it is too late, or you will suffer eternally within the awful place made by The Pebble for the non-believers.. Give your tithe to me, the custodian of the Pebble, and all may yet go well for you.

 

So be it.

 

Amen

[ToriAllen]

I think ignorant is the wrong word to describe such people. Despite proof and evidence they deny reality because it contradicts what they choose to believe. They choose to believe the nonsensible because they have had the nonsensible crammed into their heads from an early age. It seems to have affected their ability to process informationand deal with rational thought. I think brainwashed is not too strong a term to use here. Repeatedly telling a prisoner what you want them to eventually come to believe is a technique that seems to work.

 

Little children are of course prisoners. They must be at home with their parents. Similarly, they must be at school weekdays. If they have religious parents, and attend a religious school, is it any wonder they become the unquestioning cabbages their parents were.

I disagree, you can, its called brainwashing. People can be brought to believe I think.

Is it really a choice that you have made ? I believe that choice was made for you long ago by your parents and other "guardians" teachers, priests etc. Theists have even infiltrated the Girl Guides Movement, The Scouts, The boys Brigade, so that they can gain more time with children to more thoroughly indoctrinate children. It is not right that you should have been exposed to this tosh as an impressionable child.

That sounds great in theory, but there are many adults that choose to become Christians with little to no imprisonment involved. I was never told I had to believe anything. I was not forced to attend church, not that my parents went to church on a regular basis. My parents questioned different concepts of religion and taught me to do the same. As I said we went to many different churches and from the time I was old enough to think my father would encourage me to discuss alternative views on religion and my mother would ask if I thought certain parts of the Bible were meant to be literal or figurative. Neither one ever gave me the answers to any of the questions. They let me figure out what I believed for myself. The fact is I have yet to find any proof that God does not exist, and find no reason not to believe in Him. It is difficult to figure out what you believe if you are not exposed to a variety of views and ideas. What if I raised my ‘impressionable children’ to believe there is no God and tell them that people who believe in God are ignorant and brainwashed? Is that not ‘brainwashing’ as well? Wouldn’t the only true way to not brainwash a child be to leave them as a blank slate not telling them any of your personal views. That seems a little unreasonable to me. Just out of curiosity, what was your childhood like?

 

These are people who go to church on Sundays only because they feel they have to to appease others. They dont really believe. They do it to avoid arguments with more religious parents, bosses, neighbours, pushy clergy etc.

I have the least respect for them of anyone. Believe, don’t believe, it is a personal choice, but what kind of weak minded people would allow others to so rule their lives as to pretend to believe something they don’t. That’s just pathetic.

 

My presence in the world does not betoken a god.Biology can now explain my presence in the world

No it can’t. It can offer theories which you yourself stated are not fact, only conjecture. Again, there is no explanation for the cause of the ‘big bang’. No viable theory for what put everything into motion. I fully embrace the sciences. I believe that a God that could create would be smart enough to make His creation adaptable to the environment.

 

Yes they are called theories because they cannot be proven. Your god is a theory. Darwins explanation of evolution is a theory. When a theory can at last be proven, it is elevated to law - scientific law. e=mc squared is law. So is y=mx+c.

Now you are equating religion to science? Above you made it sound as if science was superior.

 

Any scientist who says that a theory IS correct, is not much of a scientist. Expecting people to believe things which cannot be proven is more the behaviour of a theist.

Some scientists believe that Darwins theories are correct. But a scientist should never describe them as such. It is not scientific to do so, given that they are simply theories.

Most scientists have accepted these theories as fact. Research is based on them. New theories are framed around them. The only thing that keeps them from making these theories law is the lack of proof. There is no certainty that they will ever find proof, but that doesn’t stop these scientists from believing them.

 

 

I see no evidence, and no proof.

You aren’t looking. There is a problem in scientific research. It is most often talked about in statistics. The problem is bias. When you begin an experiment with a particular result in mind you mentally block anything that goes against your belief and single out only the results that fit that belief. It is easy to miss evidence that way.

 

So why believe a theory ? especially one about flying blokes, some with wings, cures for incurable diseases and water that suddenly changes form into wine because the special bloke fancies a drink ? Its a bit absurd dont you think ?

You bring a lot of things into the conversation that you have heard in movies or seen in artwork. The concept of wings on angels, little creatures with pitchforks, and most of the visual conceptions of Heaven, Hell, God, and Satan are man made. These are just some people’s ideas of the Biblical concepts. It has nothing to do with the belief in a higher power and since I personally don’t think anyone has a clue what any one of these things may look or feel like, don’t bother trying to use them to ‘debunk’ Christianity.

I believe because no one has been able to disprove the existence of God. There are still too many things in the world that science has no explanation for. There are too many gaps and too many things that science chooses to ignore.

 

Again we are back to free will. If there was proof of God then there would be no reason for people to make a choice, no reason for faith, and ultimately, no free will.

 

You dont suddenly loose free will, when you stop believing in flying dead blokes going to heaven, and monsters with stars on their many pronged horns.

I left my quote above because you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. Choosing belief and not choosing belief is at the root of free will, so why would you loose free will by choosing not to believe. Not doesn’t make any sense and has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. Read this slowly, it is a hypothetical. Assuming that God exists, if there was incontrovertible proof of His existence, then according to the rules of science, that existence would become a law like that of gravity or any other provable law. People would have to accept the existence of God, therefore doing away with the need for faith and the concept of free will in belief.

 

 

Yes, Gods are everywhere, and always have been everywhere. Most people who ever lived were theists. They have spent millenia killing their co-theists for believing in the wrong god. They also like to target Atheists too. Theists are a dangerous group, much more so than Atheists. TJ is completely wrong in his assertion that Atheists have killed 100 million people. If this number of people have been killed in the past, I think it is much more likely that Theists did this crime.

In case you didn’t notice, I’m not in the debate about who killed who and how many. I think it is a stupid debate. Men kill men regardless of religion and would kill each other over land, trading rights, resources, food, or any other reason they can think of. As the population in an area grows and the resources become scarcer, men will find a reason to fight. It is in their nature. I do not think it has a place in a discussion on the existence of God. Religion is man made, religion can be manipulated by those in charge, so religion will always be used as a cloak for the motives of men, that does not disprove the existence of God.

 

 

 

I was referring to Abraham, the guy who started all this Christian/Jewish/Islam nonsense. You must remember him. He's the bloke who came down the mountain with the stone tablets he left there the night before.

No dear, you are thinking of Moses. Moses got the Ten Commandments from God after freeing the Jews from Egypt and passing through the Red Sea. Abraham gets the credit for his contribution to the religions because it was his impatience with God that caused the split in religions. Jews through Isaac and Muslims through Ishmael.

 

 

I agree

I’m shocked

 

Its still fantastical nonsense

In other words you are willing to discuss and agree with the things that fit into you view but not the ones that don’t. You’ve skipped an awful lot of what I wrote. If you continue to do that I will be forced to declare myself the victor in this discussion.

 

Please do not liken The One True Pebble to the lowly rock religion...

 

Amen

You’re such a nut. Again mine has been around longer, so I think I’ll stick with that. When it starts raining chocolate in your garden, give me a call.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

MAN it's good to see the old TA back!!

[timesjoke]

Well thanks for that TJ.

 

I can clearly see how someone who could say that, could leap into killing hundreds of millions of people. It's just such a rational, inteligent assumption to make isn't it ?

 

Not assumption, fact, over 100 million people have died in the persuit of the Athiest agenda.

 

The point of my post was that your own open display of intollerance tword religion shows everyone how intollerant Atheists in the past were capable of the atrocities they performed.

[Jhony5]

I'm actually glad Sheik posted this from my other post. Which got sidetracked into an epic bitch fight. I see Timesjoke is making an effort to mindfuk this thread into the ground like he did mine. This thread isn't about who killed more people, atheist or Christians. This thread is meant to address the website, specifically. So please, stop tearing it apart whit your idiotic body count, TJ.

 

That website is sick. Created by sick people, and with sick intentions.

 

Why is it sick? Is it sick because it offends you religion? Is it sick because you are listening in on a conversation that offends you? Would it be just as sick for me to create a website in which people are invited to publicly denounce the existence of Bigfoot? Why is that any different? Because more people believe in Christ, than there are that believe in Bigfoot? People aren't allowed to voice opposition to ideals?

 

Here was a great movie quote...

 

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was making the world believe he didn't exist."

 

Think about that one.

Kaiser Soze; AKA Kevin Spacey in the movie "The Usual Suspects". Great movie. What a twist at the end. Entertaining, indeed. I remember that quote because it struck me as being very poignant. Either because if it were true, how very clever is that. Or, because it drills home the use of fear in Christianity.

 

The fear of the unknown is the basis of this debate. The basis of "The Blasphemy Challenge". Blaspheme and rot in hell. Even those that do not believe often refuse to blaspheme, ya know, just in case. Out of fear, fear of the unknown.

 

Heres my question to you, brothaman, Tori and TJ. I expect this to be answered.

 

Why is it sick for atheist to denounce god to each other on a website for atheist, but its OK for Christians to denounce Atheism on television, radio, internet and the street corner?

 

Both are belief systems. Both have devout followers. But only one can question the other.

 

 

 

Ya wanna know what I think is sick? A 4 year old boy being taught by Christians that dead people can come back to life. Thats sick. That same little boy grows up and at the age of 15 he logs onto a website and denounces god as a means of psychologically reliving himself from years of a forced belief system being mandated upon him, and he's sick? He's the one that's an awful person?

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Not assumption, fact, over 100 million people have died in the persuit of the Athiest agenda..

 

Well, why do you studiously ignore my request that you provide proof of this er, fact. It should not be too difficult, if it is a fact.

 

The point of my post was that your own open display of intollerance tword religion shows everyone how intollerant Atheists in the past were capable of the atrocities they performed.

 

I have not displayed intolerance. I am perfectly willing to tolerate you and any other theists herein. A litler contempt yes, but not for you, Eddo,Tori , BM or anyone else, just this silly idea of a god.

 

What atrocities ? Of course you will avoid the question as usual.

[timesjoke]

Why is it sick for atheist to denounce god to each other on a website for atheist, but its OK for Christians to denounce Atheism on television, radio, internet and the street corner?

 

It is a complicated question but in the attempt to keep my answer simple,

 

It comes down to how it is done. When an Athiest talks about religion, it is with a hatred, an intolerance that goes beyond normal discussion. It is the bad attitude that all Athiests have tword religion that makes it bad.

 

You have called all believers stupid several times while I have never called you stupid as an example.

 

 

 

Well, why do you studiously ignore my request that you provide proof of this er, fact. It should not be too difficult, if it is a fact.

 

I already did long before you asked, if you could not bother to read the thread, that is not my fault, I always reply to honest questions but I don't feed a lazy man's request for information already given.

 

 

I have not displayed intolerance. I am perfectly willing to tolerate you and any other theists herein. A litler contempt yes, but not for you, Eddo,Tori , BM or anyone else, just this silly idea of a god.

 

What atrocities ? Of course you will avoid the question as usual.

 

Calling believers names is intolerance, being hateful is intolerance.

 

Open contempt is intolerance.

 

Believe what you want inside your own heart, but when you spew your hatred tword religion in a public way, you are being intolerant.

[Jhony5]

It comes down to how it is done. When an Atheist talks about religion, it is with a hatred, an intolerance that goes beyond normal discussion. It is the bad attitude that all Athiests have tword religion that makes it bad.

 

I, nor anyone else, can argue against religion without sounding hostile. It can't be done. How can I refute your god, such an intimate and personal belief, without hurting your feelings? Without you thinking you're being attacked.

 

I attack you when I say you're foolish to believe in fairy tales. You attack me when you tell me I'm going to burn in hell for being too naive. You may not have spoken those words, but the message is there, and I'm hearing it.

 

What you have said is that people like me are treacherous, murderous genocidal maniacs devoid of morality because I do not worship a god. I find that far worse than questioning your ideals about the creation of man and Earth as "stupid".

 

If you're gonna have a religious debate, you need to drop your defenses and stop being so melodramatic and emotional. I'm gonna say things that hurt you, you're gonna say things that hurt me. Nothing personal. You think I'm a blasphemous morally decrepit atheist. I think you're hand feed your beliefs as a shortcut to forming your own beliefs. Far easier to allow other men to tell you the answers to unanswerable questions.

 

Just debate and stop reacting as if I'm trying to insult you personally.

 

"You called me stupid....MOM, he called me stupid"

 

You believe in invisible men that grant wishes, while you choose to not believe in dinosaurs. Or are you one of those "new thought" Christians that wants to marry science fact with biblical lore? Disregarding the biblical fallacies as mistranslation?

[timesjoke]

I, nor anyone else, can argue against religion without sounding hostile. It can't be done. How can I refute your god, such an intimate and personal belief, without hurting your feelings? Without you thinking you're being attacked.

 

Yes you can if you want to, you just don't want to, but it is your hostility that means you are being irrational.

 

Any topic can be discussed in a clinical way without things like your open attacks.

 

As I keep saying, it is the Athiests that clearly show they are intollerant because I can talk about the Athiest belief without anger, an Athiest cannot talk about religion without getting pissed off, that is the defining factor.

 

 

I attack you when I say you're foolish to believe in fairy tales. You attack me when you tell me I'm going to burn in hell for being too naive. You may not have spoken those words, but the message is there, and I'm hearing it.

 

I can't answer to the voices in your head, I had nothing to do with them. I have never said you were going to burn in Hell but you have called me stupid, let's keep our comments on reality, not the pretand world you believe exists to justify your hostility tword me and my belief structure.

 

 

What you have said is that people like me are treacherous, murderous genocidal maniacs devoid of morality because I do not worship a god. I find that far worse than questioning your ideals about the creation of man and Earth as "stupid".

 

I have said some of that but I also offer hard proof, Athiests that gain control of large armies have killed over 100 million people in their desire to wipe religion off the face of the world.

 

I admit that many Athiest followers are peaceful, but it is difficult to ignore the facts of the belief structure on the whole.

 

 

If you're gonna have a religious debate, you need to drop your defenses and stop being so melodramatic and emotional. I'm gonna say things that hurt you, you're gonna say things that hurt me. Nothing personal. You think I'm a blasphemous morally decrepit atheist. I think you're hand feed your beliefs as a shortcut to forming your own beliefs. Far easier to allow other men to tell you the answers to unanswerable questions.

 

 

But you as an Athiest ignore the facts like Hitler being an Athiest. An honest debate can only happen if you take off your blinders. If you stop pretending that Hitler was a Chirstian and be honest, I can be more inclined to let your personal insults go but when you combine personal insults with a refusal to accept basic facts, you show yourself as not being interested in a debate but instead you only want to attack religion reguardless of the facts.

 

 

Just debate and stop reacting as if I'm trying to insult you personally.

 

"You called me stupid....MOM, he called me stupid"

 

You are the one acting like a child, I am only point out your attacks, stop your childish attacks and I will stop pointing them out.

 

 

You believe in invisible men that grant wishes, while you choose to not believe in dinosaurs. Or are you one of those "new thought" Christians that wants to marry science fact with biblical lore? Disregarding the biblical fallacies as mistranslation?

 

Where have I ever said I do not believe dinosaurs ever existed?

 

That is your probleam, Athiests feel compelled to take all things to extremes to attack religion in any way you can but your blind attacks force you to put words into other people's mouths.

 

As I keep saying, God made man, man made the many religions. Man is not capable of doing anything perfectly so there must be some mistakes with any religion he attempts to design around God.

 

 

What is funny about you Athiest followers is you claim to need proof and facts to follow but the most modern science clearly shows that evolotion is impossible but you just ignore that fact and keep running.

 

 

All life comes from other life, that is fact. It is our DNA that defines what each life will be, there is no way for DNA to be altered by the environment. For example, a woman and man make a baby, the new life gets it's DNA from a combination of "existing" traits from both parents. There is no way two humans can make a cow or a bird, that is not the way life works.

 

So, it is impossible for any creature to create new life forms without new DNA sequences being injected, and that is impossible under nature.

 

 

On top of that, a living cell must come from other living cells, it is impossible for a cell to come into existence out of nothing. Billions of dollars have been spent in the attempt to form a cell but all experts agree that it is impossible.

 

If a cell cannot form on it's own from nothing, where did the first cells come from if God did not make them?

 

You say I believe in invisible men and fairy tales but you are believeing in something science has already proven to be impossible, so who is the bigger fool?

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

 

Why is it sick? Is it sick because it offends you religion? Is it sick because you are listening in on a conversation that offends you? Would it be just as sick for me to create a website in which people are invited to publicly denounce the existence of Bigfoot? Why is that any different? Because more people believe in Christ, than there are that believe in Bigfoot? People aren't allowed to voice opposition to ideals?

 

You answered your own question in another post?.

But I attack theism ardently, because it is flawed. It is poisonous. The same for Atheism. For one to empirically deny the possibility of the existence of a god is outright madness. Its a shortcut to thinking, and for anyone of any denomination, or lack thereof, to wholeheartedly draw out their own conclusions in an attempt to answer the most unanswerable questions, well thats just so "human". Silly ing humans. Gotta believe in something.

 

Madness is a sickness? You saying that outright denouncing the existence of a God is madness is the same as me saying that the outright denouncing of God is sick? Why are you trying to argue for something that you don?t believe in? There is a time and a place to play Devil?s advocate.

 

 

Kaiser Soze; AKA Kevin Spacey in the movie "The Usual Suspects". Great movie. What a twist at the end. Entertaining, indeed. I remember that quote because it struck me as being very poignant. Either because if it were true, how very clever is that. Or, because it drills home the use of fear in Christianity.

 

Damn skippy it was a great movie. You could look at that quote any way you wanted to. You shed a different light on the way you look at anything, depending on the point you?re trying to convey. If you?re arguing for God and Christianity, you would want to look at how true this statement is, and how it makes sense that people don?t believe in religion because the Devil has them fooled. If you were arguing against religion, you would want to attack religious folk for being na?ve and scared of some ultimate evil. The same goes for anything that you?re arguing.

 

 

The fear of the unknown is the basis of this debate. The basis of "The Blasphemy Challenge". Blaspheme and rot in hell. Even those that do not believe often refuse to blaspheme, ya know, just in case. Out of fear, fear of the unknown.

 

 

Why take that chance? Why purposefully damn yourself to suffer if you don?t have to? Why go out of your way to do this? Doesn?t make sense. I don?t understand going out of your way for it, that?s all.

 

 

Heres my question to you, brothaman, Tori and TJ. I expect this to be answered.

Why is it sick for atheist to denounce god to each other on a website for atheist, but its OK for Christians to denounce Atheism on television, radio, internet and the street corner?

 

Both are belief systems. Both have devout followers. But only one can question the other.

 

 

YouTube is not a website for atheists. This is the basic flaw in your argument. Saying that you believe in God is not denouncing atheism?

 

 

 

Ya wanna know what I think is sick? A 4 year old boy being taught by Christians that dead people can come back to life. Thats sick. That same little boy grows up and at the age of 15 he logs onto a website and denounces god as a means of psychologically reliving himself from years of a forced belief system being mandated upon him, and he's sick? He's the one that's an awful person?

 

Being taught the stories in the Bible is not sick. Being brainwashed by some atheists into believing that he has no soul and that by denouncing God he will be freed from the burdens of a belief system that THEY don?t subscribe to, that?s what?s really sick. Someone out there is going to see one of these vids and think that those sick bastards are brave? Brainwashing begins again.

 

I hope my reply suffices.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

It comes down to how it is done. When an Athiest talks about religion, it is with a hatred, an intolerance that goes beyond normal discussion. It is the bad attitude that all Athiests have tword religion that makes it bad..

 

Neither johny5 nor myself have spoken about religion with hatred. You are being untruthful. Neither have either of us displayed intolerance of you or your religion. A little contempt or desparaging is only to be expected, you have read nothing more than this.

 

You have called all believers stupid several times while I have never called you stupid as an example..

 

It is you who are overly fond of using the word "stupid". Not john5.

 

I already did long before you asked, if you could not bother to read the thread, that is not my fault, I always reply to honest questions but I don't feed a lazy man's request for information already given..

 

You have never in this thread answered this question. I,ll challenge you again. Who are these Atheists who have killed 100 million people ?

 

You dare not answer, because almost certainly you will need to start trying to argue that Theists are Atheists, as you have already tried to do, with the Christian Adolph Hitler.

[timesjoke]

Neither johny5 nor myself have spoken about religion with hatred. You are being untruthful. Neither have either of us displayed intolerance of you or your religion. A little contempt or desparaging is only to be expected, you have read nothing more than this.

 

Do you even read the stuff you write before you post it?

 

A little contempt or desparaging is only to be expected?

 

Why?

 

Because it is natural for Athiests to be intolerant that is why, you see it as normal and I should just ignore your intolerance but too bad, I refuse to just accept bad manors and behavoir from you two just because you are Athiest and think you have the right to be filled with hatred against religion.

 

If you do not possess the ability to discuss religious topics without your hatred flowing out of every post, maybe you should not be discussing it.

 

 

It is you who are overly fond of using the word "stupid". Not john5.

 

Where did I use that word to describe him or you?

 

There you go again, making stuff up to try and have excuses for your hatred and anger tword religion.

 

You have never in this thread answered this question. I,ll challenge you again. Who are these Atheists who have killed 100 million people ?

 

I answered it in the first thread you asked that question in a couple pages back from your question. If you are too lazy to read, that is not my fault.

 

Can you even remember the first time you asked that question?

 

You dare not answer, because almost certainly you will need to start trying to argue that Theists are Atheists, as you have already tried to do, with the Christian Adolph Hitler.

 

Hitler was an Athiest, that is fact, I have given you his own words proclaiming that fact, if you are too blinded by your hatred of religion to admit that, fine, but your ignoring the fact does not diminish that fact.

 

You fully admitted he was an Athiest but then attempted to cover your mistake but it was too little, too late, you already put your foot in your mouth.

 

Now your acting like a 5 year old and won't even own up to your own admission, I don't waste my time with childish minds.

[Jhony5]

Why take that chance? Why purposefully damn yourself to suffer if you don’t have to? Why go out of your way to do this? Doesn’t make sense. I don’t understand going out of your way for it, that’s all.

Here's my take on that. It's worth addressing because its a very good question.

 

I'm a science channel junkie, an aficionado for study of the universe and all the creatures that crawl upon the Earth's surface. Whether I'm learning about quasars or ant colonies, I can't help but to see intelligent design. Evolution, yes. But who's to say that evolution isn't a part of intelligent design? Not I.

 

If I am to think that there is a creator, and as part of his/her grand scheme we have after life and a judgment which determines our placement and categorization in this afterlife, I have to assume several things;

1:The great creator/creators are of obvious extraordinary intelligence and have a capacity for unfathomable logic.

2: Being that they are of such great intelligence and logic, I find it quite illogical for them to judge me based on whether or not I believed what mere men had to tell me about God, Jesus or the bible.

3: What I have to say about something in which I have no logical reason to believe in, is invalid as far as judging the goodness of my soul.

 

Being taught the stories in the Bible is not sick. Being brainwashed by some atheists into believing that he has no soul and that by denouncing God he will be freed from the burdens of a belief system that THEY don’t subscribe to, that’s what’s really sick. Someone out there is going to see one of these vids and think that those sick bastards are brave… Brainwashing begins again.

I see it as validating their own beliefs as just. Like a support group. Everyone around them, their families and friends, has been pushing beliefs upon them that, deep inside, they reject. If their true feelings are exposed, then they are taunted and ostracized for being different. Here, on this website, they can see that they're not alone. That others believe the same thing they do.

 

Why does this have to be so sinister? They aren't mass E-mailing these vids to Christians. They aren't posting these vids on Christian websites. They're just standing together to say "we reject Christ". Some, I'm sure some are doing so just to be "cool" punks. Its America, let 'em at it.

[ToriAllen]

Heres my question to you, brothaman, Tori and TJ. I expect this to be answered.

 

Why is it sick for atheist to denounce god to each other on a website for atheist, but its OK for Christians to denounce Atheism on television, radio, internet and the street corner?

I never said it was sick. I have no problem with someone having a different belief than me. My problem is with the adolescent way in which the idea is presented. The 'us against them' mentality is just annoying. Atheist ideas that are presented in a way that is obviously meant to offend Christians and to be an 'in your face' approach to showing atheist ideology is very different than having a website that is meant to be an atheist community/support group. It is the same adolescent 'rebellious' attitude that I associate with any minority trying to force their views into the face of the majority as loudly and offensively as possible.

The idea that somehow atheists are more 'enlightened' than Christians is what bothers me and what I was discussing.

Both are belief systems. Both have devout followers. But only one can question the other.

That's not true. Anyone can question anything. Who is preventing it?

Ya wanna know what I think is sick? A 4 year old boy being taught by Christians that dead people can come back to life. Thats sick. That same little boy grows up and at the age of 15 he logs onto a website and denounces god as a means of psychologically reliving himself from years of a forced belief system being mandated upon him, and he's sick? He's the one that's an awful person?

So now Christianity is sick? Isn't that kind of 'tit for tat' mentality a little counter productive? I was under the impression you were an agnostic. Was I wrong? I would think you would be a little more open minded than that.

BTW- Your 15 year old supports my 'rebellious teen' attitude example above.

 

Edit:

They're just standing together to say "we reject Christ".

That is what is troubling. Not, we reject religion, or we reject God, or we reject all beliefs in a higher order. Nope. We reject Christ and Christians. Kind of seems like a personal attack on one particular religion. Wouldn't a true atheist group who is not purposefully trying to offend, as I believe this one is, be more generic in their assertions. Why not denounce Buddha and Mohammad, too? What about all of the Hindu gods?

[wez]

The way I see it, atheism is'nt really a belief system.. To not believe what someone else believes is not really a belief system.. more a non-belief.

 

Christianity would exist without atheism.. it's a belief. Atheism wouldn't exist if Christians didn't believe as they do.. it's a non-belief. Why waste ones time not believing in something someone else believes? What I want to know is, what do atheists believe? They seem kinda like parasites, feeding off someone elses beliefs.. What do atheists believe? Everyone already knows what they don't believe..

 

The truth is the truth and it will never change no matter what people think/say/do. So no need to seperate and hate.. Atheist = Christian and vice versa.. hahahaha.. People are funny.. what we think = dog crap, unless what we think and know to be 100% true is that every human that ever existed has the same truth.

 

The best part of knowing that, I don't need one other person on the face of this Earth to validate it for me and I know it to be true no matter what people think/say/do. That bit of truth, I've encountered from many an experience, is quite hard for Christians to admit for some reason.. I wonder why?

[Jhony5]

The idea that somehow atheists are more 'enlightened' than Christians is what bothers me and what I was discussing.

You got that quite backward. The fuel that fires an atheists rage is the constant reminder that they are "lost". You get what I'm sayin?

 

 

Both are belief systems. Both have devout followers. But only one can question the other.

That's not true. Anyone can question anything. Who is preventing it?

Its the perceived norm that I was attacking. Its acceptable, socially, to question the fate and motivations of an atheist. To the opposite, it would be considered religious discrimination and hate mongering. One is "allowed", the other is not.

 

Take my example of being picked on as a child for not having religious beliefs. The teachers didn't care. When my mother complained, the administration made it out to be my fault, because I voiced my beliefs. Not that I decided as a child to stand on my desk and preach atheism. A kid asked me if I went to church and I said no. This is what started it. Yet I was an acceptable target, the administration made excuses for the kids that picked on me and made it my fault.

 

So now Christianity is sick? Isn't that kind of 'tit for tat' mentality a little counter productive? I was under the impression you were an agnostic. Was I wrong? I would think you would be a little more open minded than that.

Tori, c'mon girl. I didn't say that. I said teaching young children that dead people can rise, along with many of the other teachings of the bible, would seem to me to have ill psychological effects. What happens if my brothers 4 year old son has to confront mortality, say someone close to him dies. Is it not reasonable to expect that he may reflect back to his Sunday school lessons of dead people rising?

 

The great thing about being a "fence-sitter", as Timesjoke put it, is I can sit back and laugh at the various camps throwing rocks at each other. Atheist and Christians, Jews and Muslims, all arguing about who created the universe and why their version of whats real is right.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think these people on this website are being silly. Some think its cool and dangerous to do this. As if they are confronting some divine dare.

 

What I'm saying is, this is no different than Christians coming together, as they do often, and telling atheist and non-believers that they are going to rot in hell for all eternity.

 

The practice of Christians bearing witness is a mandated requirement passed down to them by the church.

 

How, oh please tell me, is this website not a perfect example of atheism bearing witness?

 

Answer that.