What are the legal and illegal ways to intentionally kill another human being?

[Old Salt]

Support for Horn was also running about 2-1 in an online survey of readers on the KHOU Web site.

I hope they run their polls better than my local newspaper, in which you can vote as many times as you want. Sorta skews the results that way.

[hugo]

I hope they run their polls better than my local newspaper, in which you can vote as many times as you want. Sorta skews the results that way.

 

I voted 127 times myself. I need to get a life.

[ImWithStupid]

Joe should have shouted that the robbers should stop. Aside from that, what he did seems perfectly reasonable.

 

Let me get this right. You have no problem in this incident that a guy shoots and kills someone, with a shotgun, for stealing his neighbors stuff, but in another thread you think that a cop should be charged with assault for using a taser, which is on the same force level as pepper spray, on a guy that is non-compliant, walks back toward his vehicle like he is going to get in and leave, and is also reaching in his pocket, after lawfully being told to turn around and put his hands behind his back.

 

So shooting dead for non violent event = OK, but Tasing for non violent offense = Crime.

[snafu]

Actually it does. Texans are a different breed. They truly still believe that it is 1885, and frontier justice should still apply.

 

 

 

 

My contention is that, just because you are legally able to kill someone, doesn't mean that it is always the best choice.

 

If the police shot someone every time they were justified to do so, there would be a criminal killed at least once a day in every major city, and many smaller jurisdictions also.

 

I guess in that the statute it also says that it has to be at night time.

 

"If you see someone stealing your neighbor's property, you can get involved and help to stop it," said Sandra Guerra Thompson, a law professor at the University of Houston Law Center.

 

Others disagreed.

 

The statutes that allow people to use deadly force to stop a burglary appear to require that the incident be occurring at night, said Craig Jett, a Dallas criminal defense attorney and president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyer's Association

 

Why? I don't have a clue. Sounds like Texas needs to revampt some laws.

 

And it sounds like Joe's gonna go for self defense anyway.

Lambright contended that Horn was startled to find the burglars just 15 feet from his front door when he stepped onto his porch. "He was petrified at that point," the lawyer said. "You hear him say, 'I'll shoot. Stop!' They jumped. Joe thought they were coming for him. It's a self-defense issue."

 

 

 

Attorney: Pasadena man didn't intend to kill (w/911 call) | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

[ImWithStupid]

And it sounds like Joe's gonna go for self defense anyway.

 

The issue is, would they have come after him if he didn't confront them with a gun?

 

I don't think so.

 

He also told the operator he was, "gonna kill 'em".

[hugo]

The issue is, would they have come after him if he didn't confront them with a gun?

 

 

That is not the issue. You have the right to attempt to prevent an ongoing crime.

[ImWithStupid]

That is not the issue. You have the right to attempt to prevent an ongoing crime.

 

I understand that he had a right to do so under Texas law (which is in my opinion flawed, in the way it is written.)

 

This would be equal to a person jumping in front of a moving car and claiming that the person tried to kill them. The person jumping in front of the car made the initial move, not the driver.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

I sleep with a loaded 45 under my bed. I'm not gonna shot someone robbing me. I will ask him to leave. And he will one way or another. But thats self defense.

 

I've got a combat knife and a razor point rapier beside my bed. I also have a hand held crossbow pistol. And I will kill any er who breaks into my home.

 

I see it as a public duty. The loser I kill today will not be terrifying a lone woman, child, pensioner or cripple tomorrow.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

And another thing, I'm not sure, but I don't believe that Texan law covers protecting your neighbors things.

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In the UK we have a right to defend our property. Should you chose to do this it may of course lead to a confrontation. This may very well lead to violence. At this point it is accepted that the citizen has a right to use a similar measure of force. So if the jerk has a knife and tries to use it, you would be entitled to use just about any weapon, as clearly the jerk is trying to kill, ie the crim is trying to use lethal force.

 

In reality muggers,rapists burglars,bank robbers etc are usually armed, whereas citizens are not. It is advisable to avoid a confrontation unless the citizen is armed.

 

This is where the situation favours the criminal. They know that the majority of people cannot defend themselves with an equal measure of force, as most citizens obey the law, and hence are not carrying a weapon. It is against the law to carry a knife/lever/hammer without good reason, and hardly anyone has a licence to carry a gun. Criminals of course do not bother obeying the law. Criminals know then, that they are unlikely to come up against resistance in the street while threatening others.

 

The law however cannot legislate knives and other potential weapons out of our homes. And this is where crimnals become vulnerable.

[ImWithStupid]

I've got a combat knife and a razor point rapier beside my bed. I also have a hand held crossbow pistol. And I will kill any er who breaks into my home.

 

I see it as a public duty. The loser I kill today will not be terrifying a lone woman, child, pensioner or cripple tomorrow.

 

This I understand. In your scenario, you aren't running out of your house to confront someone who is stealing your neighbor's tv or dvd player. You are defending yourself inside your own home. The criminal came into your home, you didn't go outside, and go after the alleged criminal.

[hugo]

I understand that he had a right to do so under Texas law (which is in my opinion flawed, in the way it is written.)

 

This would be equal to a person jumping in front of a moving car and claiming that the person tried to kill them. The person jumping in front of the car made the initial move, not the driver.

 

 

The initial move was when the two scumbags started burglarizing the neighbor's home. Joe showed restraint. He called the cops first. He had no obligation to do so.

[ImWithStupid]

The initial move was when the two scumbags started burglarizing the neighbor's home. Joe showed restraint. He called the cops first. He had no obligation to do so.

 

If he claims defense of property as it is under Texas law, but not if you want to claim self defense. He confronted the people that he was supposedly in fear of his safety from.

[hugo]

If he claims defense of property as it is under Texas law, but not if you want to claim self defense. He confronted the people that he was supposedly in fear of his safety from.

 

He had the perfect right to defend his neighbor's property. He also had the right to self defense if the criminals threatened him. What set everything in motion was the burglary.

[phreakwars]

He wasn't defending himself one bit. Had he not left the confines of his home, he would have not placed himself into a threatening situation that he knew existed.

 

I know none of the evidence has been brought out yet, but I would GUESS that the guy shot at the burglars and did NOT have them charging at him like he claims.

 

These guys had what... a tire iron/crow bar?

 

How STUPID do you have to be to go charging at someone who is holding a shotgun?

 

Yes, on the tape, you hear him say "Don't move, your dead"

 

I think what is important here is the context of how he said it and what his intentions were... I contend, by just his remarks to the dispatcher, that he had intended to kill these people all along...

 

He shot one person semi close range, and the other while running away from him... if someone is running away from you firing a gun at them, they are NOT intending to harm you. THIS IS MURDER.

 

This old man should get nothing less then LETHAL INJECTION for his crime.

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[ImWithStupid]

He had the perfect right to defend his neighbor's property. He also had the right to self defense if the criminals threatened him. What set everything in motion was the burglary.

 

The funny thing about this "hero", is that if he had gone out, against the advice of the dispatcher, and gotten shot and killed by the criminals, everyone who is praising him now, would be saying how stupid it was for him to confront these guys, and risk his life for a tv/laptop/dvd player or whatever STUFF it was they were taking from the house of a neighbor, who by his own admission, he hardly knew.

 

Since he didn't die and the bad guys did, he's a "hero". If he had died, he's an idiot.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

If the police shot someone every time they were justified to do so, there would be a criminal killed at least once a day in every major city, and many smaller jurisdictions also.

 

Sounds good to me. A scum free world would be wonderful

[timesjoke]

He had the perfect right to defend his neighbor's property. He also had the right to self defense if the criminals threatened him. What set everything in motion was the burglary.

 

I believe this is the best and most ignored point.

 

 

These are bad guys who were robbing someone, not kids breaking lawn ornaments.

 

 

Even the 911 operator said "you are going to get shot if you go out there" before he went outside so if anything, the 911 operator added to this guys being ready to shoot.

 

 

If there were plain cloths officers on the sceene at the time and saw an unknown man shoot other men, they would have taken action, not waited so obviously there were not any cops there at that exact point in time, but clearly they showed up right after the shooting.

 

 

 

Does anyone here know the primary reasons for insurance rate increases over the last 50 years?

 

Major storm damage and theft claims.

 

 

We know one very important fact from this story, these hardened criminals will never commit another crime, if the cops had busted them we could not say that, in fact most criminals that are busted will continue committing crimes.

 

 

Cops can only "react" to crimes, criminals know this and understand that there is a low likelyhood of police responding in time to catch them so there is little to no deterrent, but if people can act to stop them as in cases like this, now there is a deterrent, at least in that neighborhood.

 

Imagine a world where criminals are afraid of average citizens instead of the citizens being scared of the criminals.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Let me get this right. You have no problem in this incident that a guy shoots and kills someone, with a shotgun, for stealing his neighbors stuff, but in another thread you think that a cop should be charged with assault for using a taser, which is on the same force level as pepper spray, on a guy that is non-compliant, walks back toward his vehicle like he is going to get in and leave, and is also reaching in his pocket, after lawfully being told to turn around and put his hands behind his back.

 

So shooting dead for non violent event = OK, but Tasing for non violent offense = Crime.

 

Not so different I think. Both cases the citizen is correct. The tazed guy was wrongfully attacked by the police officer... Joe justifiably defended his neighbor's home from two dangerous thugs...

[ImWithStupid]

Not so different I think. Both cases the citizen is correct. The tazed guy was wrongfully attacked by the police officer... Joe justifiably defended his neighbor's home from two dangerous thugs...

 

The tased guy didn't comply with a lawful order of a cop, and then walked toward his vehicle like he was going to leave or get a weapon, and put his hand in his pocket, also possibly going for a weapon. This cop would have been legally and tactically justified in shooting this guy. He was in possible danger. The guy in Texas was in no danger until he confronted the burglars, against the advise of a law enforcement agency.

 

The cop had every right under the law to do what he did and the guy in Texas had every right to do what he did under Texas law, but there may have been better choices in both situations leading up to the use of force.

[snafu]

Man Kills Suspects While On Phone With 911, Two Men Shot In Texas By Joe Horn Who Saw Suspects Leaving Neighbor's House - CBS News

 

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth

 

And as far as I can see there have been no charges filed on him. howdy! I live in the wrong state.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

These guys had what... a tire iron/crow bar?

How STUPID do you have to be to go charging at someone who is holding a shotgun? .

 

They were probably fueled up on drugs or something. That would explain doing something so crass.

 

the other while running away from him... if someone is running away from you firing a gun at them, they are NOT intending to harm you. THIS IS MURDER..

.

 

The second one should not have tried to run. The only way Hero Joe could recover his neigbours property was by shooting that piece of .. You can't expect an old guy to catch a 20 year old.

[phreakwars]

They were probably fueled up on drugs or something. That would explain doing something so crass.

These men were married with children... probably desperate for money to support their families, that doesn't make their crime any less of an offense, but it doesn't indicate the pattern of people on drugs. I'm sure the autopsy will probably confirm this either way.

 

 

The second one should not have tried to run. The only way Hero Joe could recover his neigbours property was by shooting that piece of .. You can't expect an old guy to catch a 20 year old.

No, that would be up to the police to do. The dispatcher indicated they were in the area... he could run all he wants... if they were in the area, the guy wasn't getting away. Considering the sound of officers voices just SECONDS (less then a minute) after the shots were fired could be heard. I would even speculate the old man saw the cops coming and fired anyway. If they were there THAT FAST after he had fired that first shot, your not gonna convince me that the second person would have gotten away had he not fired.

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[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

These men were married with children... probably desperate for money to support their families,.

 

Welfare, though not luxurious, provides for all. Those jerks were not desperate to support their families at all. They were common criminals. Desperate for more drugs more than likely.

 

that doesn't make their crime any less of an offense, but it doesn't indicate the pattern of people on drugs. I'm sure the autopsy will probably confirm this either way. .

 

Yes it does. This is exactly the sort of behaviour of some drugged up loser. We see it all the time in the UK.

 

The dispatcher indicated they were in the area... he could run all he wants... if they were in the area, the guy wasn't getting away. .

 

" Police in the area", means nothing more than "stay inside, and let them get away with it". That's what the dispatcher wanted Hero Joe to do. The police may have been 15-20 mins in getting there. Joe did the right thing, he stopped the trash.

 

Considering the sound of officers voices just SECONDS (less then a minute) after the shots were fired could be heard..

 

Again, Hero Joe could not know how long the police would take to get there. All Joe heard was crap the dispatcher wanted him to believe.

 

I would even speculate the old man saw the cops coming and fired anyway. If they were there THAT FAST after he had fired that first shot, your not gonna convince me that the second person would have gotten away had he not fired.

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You said it yourself. Speculation.

[wez]

So what about the white collar theives who do exponentially more damage in the terms of dollars and people affected? Firing squad for Martha Stewert?

[Old Salt]

So what about the white collar theives who do exponentially more damage in the terms of dollars and people affected? Firing squad for Martha Stewert?

The folks down in that area know all about white collar crime - ENRON