The Taser. Lazy mans handcuffs?

[ImWithStupid]

That's being a bit shortsighted, ain't it? Massey only requested his clocked speed and wished clarification as to how he could be speeding when he hasn't reached the speed limit sign point yet. I never heard him shout at the officer. Not once.

 

Although not an exact transcript if you listen when the officer is at the vehicle the second time it goes something like this.

 

He was trying to tell the officer what to do. He said he wouldn't sign the ticket, then said, "First of all if you're giving me a ticket, you're gonna tell me why." The officer said for speeding and Massey cut him off, raising his voice over ther officer's saying, "And Second you are going to show me where this sign is." He is already being verbally non-compliant. The officer then told him he needed to sign the ticket first, and Massey again refused.

 

Not exactly, "politely asking about the ticket".

 

Maybe he was looking at the cops eyes, not the colored tape on his gun?

 

I don't buy that. It's common knowledge that witnesses rarely can describe an attacker when a gun is pointed at them, because in the natural fight or flight response, your vision focuses on the threat. Witnesses often can give descriptions of the gun, but can't even remember the color of the guys shirt.

 

Either way, at that point Massey reacted in a bizarre manner. A manner that may be indicative of the probability that even if officer Gardner had asked him politely several times to "turn around and put your hands behind your back", Massey may well have ended up getting zapped anyway if you want to know the truth.

 

He argued about the ticket. He argued about signing it. He most likely would have argued about the arrest, turned and walked away. The only difference is, in that case, the Utah state board of internal investigation wouldn't even look at this case.

 

Again, we agree that the officer used poor use of communication, and it may have been possible to avoid the use of force, if he communicated better. Unfortunately, at this point we'll never know, it played out the way it did and that's, that. I think both are to blame mostly because they had a clash of personalities on the side of the road and both acted stubbornly and unwaivering.

[Jhony5]

I don't buy that. It's common knowledge that witnesses rarely can describe an attacker when a gun is pointed at them, because in the natural fight or flight response, your vision focuses on the threat. Witnesses often can give descriptions of the gun, but can't even remember the color of the guys shirt.

Your facts are no match for my mighty opinion. Good call I suppose.

 

Not exactly, "politely asking about the ticket".

No, not polite. I feel police need to consume a few sh t sandwiches. It keeps 'em in line.

 

Now I'm just acting juvenile, ain't I?

 

Unfortunately, at this point we'll never know, it played out the way it did and that's, that. I think both are to blame mostly because they had a clash of personalities on the side of the road and both acted stubbornly and unwaivering.

Police aren't supposed to act with machismo as their guiding light. I know they are just human but the psychological ideal for a cop is not a type-A personality.

 

Type-A personality, also known as the Type-A Behavior Pattern, is a set of characteristics that includes being impatient, excessively time-conscious, insecure about one's status, highly competitive, hostile and aggressive, and incapable of relaxation. Type-A individuals are often highly achieving workaholics who multi-task, drive themselves with deadlines, and are unhappy about the smallest of delays.

[ImWithStupid]

Police aren't supposed to act with machismo as their guiding light. I know they are just human but the psychological ideal for a cop is not a type-A personality.

 

Type-A personality, also known as the Type-A Behavior Pattern, is a set of characteristics that includes being impatient, excessively time-conscious, insecure about one's status, highly competitive, hostile and aggressive, and incapable of relaxation. Type-A individuals are often highly achieving workaholics who multi-task, drive themselves with deadlines, and are unhappy about the smallest of delays.

 

They often feel the need to always be in control.

 

You're right, a type-A probably doesn't make the best cop and it appears Gardner may fall in that catagory (that or he just ate a big sandwich from the last driver(s), and wasn't hungry anymore). Type -A people are prone to misdirect their emotions.

 

Unfortunately the ability to usually be able to control others often attracts that type, to the job.

[phreakwars]

I'm 100% B, IRL. Non aggressive, just highly opinionated. I think it makes me more mentally vunerable in times of distress, as it tends to make me fear the unrational rather then fight it. The end result makes me vocally sound excited.

 

P.S. As many times as I've had the cuffs slapped on me in my younger days, I have never questioned why until told why.

 

In summary.... don't taze me bro !!

.

.

[Jhony5]

I'm 100% B, IRL. Non aggressive, just highly opinionated. I think it makes me more mentally vunerable in times of distress, as it tends to make me fear the unrational rather then fight it. The end result makes me vocally sound excited.

 

P.S. As many times as I've had the cuffs slapped on me in my younger days, I have never questioned why until told why.

 

In summary.... don't taze me bro !!

.

.

 

At work I exhibit many type-A personality traits. I am driven and become very unhappy over the smallest delays, often a result of laziness from my helpers. I do become hostile rather easily when people disrespect me. I am definitely too competitive. With everything. When I was a grocery stocker I would HAVE to beat everyone on their case counts (Cases stocked per hour) even when I was getting paid $5.65 an hour when I first started.

 

I cannot even play a video game with my 8 year old without trying to destroy her. Even if we're just playing Hello Kittys Island Adventure. I must destroy her kitty. If someone throws a rock, I have to pick one up and throw it farther. Although when I lose I am an exceedingly good sport. However inside, I beat myself up. When I played football I learned to not enjoy it, as it was all work for me. A constant sequence of one-upsmanship.

 

But when it comes to police, I know when to chose my battles. I have no issue with people that are mouthy with cops. Do as they say, however, while you mouth them. That is if you even have a reason to mouth them. Doing so just because you got caught is pathetic.

[Guest Stedric]

This has been a constant issue with tasers. Recently a man at Vancouver international airport was tasered to death by the RCMP (mounties). [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh27BmXzodo]YouTube - RCMP deadly tasers Robert Dziekanski on Vancouver Intl Apt.[/ame]

 

He had been stuck in part of the airport for over ten hours without anyone helping him, and as such was understandably distressed.

[snafu]

Taser death at Vancouver Airport

 

Akezys says: "Recently police at the Vancouver airport were attempting to question a recent immigrant that could not speak English. They tasered him after 24 seconds of speaking with him. The man had spent 10 hours stuck in the airport with no-one helping him."

The 40-year-old construction worker, who had never left Poland before, was immigrating to Canada to join his mother, 61, who lives in Kamloops, about a five-hour drive from Vancouver.

They had arranged to meet at the baggage carousel in the international terminal at YVR....

 

Mr. Dziekanski arrived at about 3 p.m. on Sunday, Oct. 14.

 

"He made his way to primary customs in the ordinary fashion ? he went through there in the normal time frame ? he then proceeded through and was directed to secondary customs, which is normal for someone who doesn't speak English and is immigrating to the country," Mr. Kosteckyj said. His papers were in order and he proceeded without difficulty.

 

But what happened after that was far from normal. For nearly 10 hours, Mr. Dziekanski stayed in the Arrivals Hall, growing increasingly frustrated and eventually becoming frantic.

 

Outside, in the public area, his mother spent nearly six hours pacing the corridors and, in broken English, asking airport officials for help in locating her son.

 

Mr. Kosteckyj said she visited one booth in international arrivals "at least three to four times and conveyed to them that she was concerned about her son being in the area and she wanted to get a message to him and how could she do that? They wrote her name down and said that they would make inquiries."

 

At about 10 p.m., she was told he wasn't there. She made the long drive home, only to find a phone message waiting, saying her son had been found.

 

"She called back to immigration when she got in, which would have been around 2 a.m., and spoke to someone there and was advised that her son was somewhere in the area and was fine. And she advised, you know, 'Please take care of him because he can't speak English and I'll get there as soon as I can.' And of course he had died, been killed really, some time on or about 1 or 1:30," Mr. Kosteckyj said.

 

 

 

 

Man Dies After Being Tasered in Vancouver Airport

By Brandon Keim November 15, 2007 | 5:27:28 PMCategories: Crime

 

Cell phone video of an unarmed immigrant man who died after being tasered in a Vancouver airport was broadcast last night on Canadian television. It promises to renew debate about the safety of what are supposed to be non-lethal devices.

 

From the New York Times:

 

Mr. Dziekanski, a 40-year-old construction worker, had arrived in Vancouver to begin a new life with his mother. After a 10 hour delay caused by immigration processing, Mr. Dziekanski became upset when he could not find his mother, who had returned home.

 

Unable to speak English, Mr. Dziekanski became distressed and began shouting in Polish, moving furniture around, shoving equipment off a desk in an arrival area and, at one point, throwing a chair. His actions soon attracted the attention of other passengers and security officials.

 

Moments later, four policemen arrived. Dziekanski walked away with his arms raised; there "was a brief conversation followed by a loud sound, apparently a Taser shot, and Mr. Dziekanski fell to the ground screaming in pain." Three officers then subdued Dziekanski and appeared to administer another taser shot.

 

An autopsy showed no sign of drugs or alcohol, but was unable to establish a cause of death. CTV reports that 16 people have died in Canada this year after being tasered. Taser International maintains that the devices are not lethal, but much of the supporting research has been funded by the company. That doesn't disqualify it -- but it does raise concern.

 

It might not be possible to scientifically quantify the safety of tasers in real-world settings, or compare the results of their use to what would have happened in their absence. Given this ambiguity and tragedies like that in Vancouver, guidelines need to be established to make tasering less routine. Tasers were originally meant for situations that would otherwise require firearms, but their use has definitely expanded beyond that.

 

 

 

I guess somewhere down the line authorities are gonna have to look at the lethality of these teasers. I know its an easier means of apprehending the suspect but come on. Like one of the cops in the other teaser video stated they need to call the paramedics any time a teaser is used. In this instance I saw no need for any force but then again it was only the teasing and not what lead up to it. After he hit the ground they had three or four guys on him. I saw no reason to tease him while he's down. You just sit on him until he wears himself down.

[Jhony5]

The problem in that case was the man spoke polish and no one could communicate with him. Over a ten hour period of being confined in that area and not being able to communicate with anyone, he went bat sh t. Thing is, it took me less than 20 seconds to google up a polish to English translator online.

 

The taser is a great tool that is being misused. Communication first.

[hugo]

The problem in that case was the man spoke polish and no one could communicate with him. Over a ten hour period of being confined in that area and not being able to communicate with anyone, he went bat sh t. Thing is, it took me less than 20 seconds to google up a polish to English translator online.

 

 

If ya live here speak English--don't expect America to adjust to you. It seems like most of taser fatalities occur to the obese. My bet is most of them would have had a heart attack within a few years anyways.

[ImWithStupid]

If ya live here speak English--don't expect America to adjust to you. It seems like most of taser fatalities occur to the obese. My bet is most of them would have had a heart attack within a few years anyways.

 

First of all, he was in Canada, Second he just came over from Poland on his first plane trip and Third, I take it you have never traveled to a non-English speaking country. Of course you are probably the type of arrogant American that the world hates, and thinks that when you go to their country they should cater to you, by knowing English.

 

Americans are of the minority on languages. Most every other modern nation requires their students to learn at least two if not more languages. I have traveled to several non-English speaking countries and was amazed at how many of them could speak several languages including English.

[hugo]

First of all, he was in Canada, Second he just came over from Poland on his first plane trip and Third, I take it you have never traveled to a non-English speaking country. Of course you are probably the type of arrogant American that the world hates, and thinks that when you go to their country they should cater to you, by knowing English.

 

Americans are of the minority on languages. Most every other modern nation requires their students to learn at least two if not more languages. I have traveled to several non-English speaking countries and was amazed at how many of them could speak several languages including English.

 

I think if you are too stupid to understand English you should at least behave yourself when confronted with authority. I am certain you are the kind of limp wristed internationalist, anti-American liberal the foreigners love. There is no need for Americans to learn another language. Unlike European countries America is pretty large and one wrong turn is unlikely to land you in a foreign country. English is the language of business. It pays for foreigners to learn it.

 

TO SUM IT UP THE FAT POLLOCK SHOULD HAVE BEHAVED HIMSELF.

 

Typical pollock spent ten hours trying to communicate when he could have googled a Polish/English translator in 20 seconds.

[ImWithStupid]

I think if you are too stupid to understand English you should at leat behave yourself when confronted with authority. I am certain you are the kind of limp wristed internationalist, anti-American liberal the foreigners love. There is no need for Americans to learn another language. Unlike European countries America is pretty large and one wrong turn is unlikely to land you in a foreign country. English is the language of business. It pays for foreigners to learn it.

 

TO SUM IT UP THE FAT POLOCK SHOULD HAVE BEHAVED HIMSELF.

 

No I'm not, I'm just not so arrogant as to expect the entire world to speak English. Also since he was in Canada, would it be ok for him to speak French. Would it be too much to ask for them to get someone from the immigration department to deal with him.

 

I agree that he went overboard when he started throwing computers around and resisting the officers, but just like the Utah State Trooper thing, a little communication could have possibly avoided the entire thing, and he may still be alive.

[snafu]

I can't understand why they needed him detained for 10 hours in the first place. I think I'd be pretty pissed being held that long too.

[Jhony5]

Typical pollock spent ten hours trying to communicate when he could have googled a Polish/English translator in 20 seconds.

He wasn't the one with access to a PC or laptop. Airport personnel should have been able to identify what language he spoke and have been translating, at least basic messages, within minutes.

 

Instead they, in essence, quarantine him as if he was some sort of space alien.

 

"Oh no, that space alien is freaking out. We better electrocute it before it grabs a ray gun".

 

Honestly. He's a f cking human being. How is it that in this day and age that personnel at a busy international airport couldn't find a way to speak with another human being.

[hugo]

He wasn't the one with access to a PC or laptop. Airport personnel should have been able to identify what language he spoke and have been translating, at least basic messages, within minutes.

 

Instead they, in essence, quarantine him as if he was some sort of space alien.

 

"Oh no, that space alien is freaking out. We better electrocute it before it grabs a ray gun".

 

Honestly. He's a f cking human being. How is it that in this day and age that personnel at a busy international airport couldn't find a way to speak with another human being.

 

It comes down to whether you want to leave yourself at the mercy of others or whether you take proactive steps to prevent potential problems. If I was going to Poland I would have a pocketbook English/Polish translator at the least. I would also learn certain stock phrases by heart. It comes down to individual responsibility. He was a big guy. An irresponsible eater. Clearly irresponsible in at least one other area also. Personal irresponsibilty killed him. Fortunately, there are still billions of human beings left.

[Jhony5]

It comes down to whether you want to leave yourself at the mercy of others or whether you take proactive steps to prevent potential problems. If I was going to Poland I would have a pocketbook English/Polish translator at the least. I would also learn certain stock phrases by heart. It comes down to individual responsibility. He was a big guy. An irresponsible eater. Clearly irresponsible in at least one other area also. Personal irresponsibilty killed him. Fortunately, there are still billions of human beings left.

 

His lack of a pocket sized copy of a Polish to English translator is not suffice reason to circumvent communication. The police were aware that this man did not understand them. In a stunning show of ignorance, they spoke to this man and gave him verbal commands anyway.

The real issue here is, the taser is not being respected by the police nor recognized as a potentially deadly weapon.

 

Also, the issue to begin with was this man had become separated from his mother, whom spoke English. Had the airport personnel been pro-active and not treated this man like an alien visitor from the Gwagnar Nebula, they could have reunited him with his mother and this would have never happened.

[hugo]

His lack of a pocket sized copy of a Polish to English translator is not suffice reason to circumvent communication. The police were aware that this man did not understand them. In a stunning show of ignorance, they spoke to this man and gave him verbal commands anyway.

The real issue here is, the taser is not being respected by the police nor recognized as a potentially deadly weapon.

 

Also, the issue to begin with was this man had become separated from his mother, whom spoke English. Had the airport personnel been pro-active and not treated this man like an alien visitor from the Gwagnar Nebula, they could have reunited him with his mother and this would have never happened.

 

If the man had not started destroying property and behaving like a nutcase this never would have happened. Note to people who are stupid enough to engage in foreign travel: If you happen to have a problem and are surrounded by individuals too lazy to have learned the universal language oif business don't start destroying property and acting like a nutcase. Particularly if you are a larger than average size man.

 

Human lives tend to be determined 10% by what happens to you and 90% of how you react. You can be a victim if you choose, your spouse might benefit from it when you get your ass killed.

[Jhony5]

If the man had not started destroying property and behaving like a nutcase this never would have happened. Note to people who are stupid enough to engage in foreign travel: If you happen to have a problem and are surrounded by individuals too lazy to have learned the universal language oif business don't start destroying property and acting like a nutcase. Particularly if you are a larger than average size man.

 

Human lives tend to be determined 10% by what happens to you and 90% of how you react. You can be a victim if you choose, your spouse might benefit from it when you get your ass killed.

 

Well said. He was also wielding and raising toward the police, a large metal stapler (A potential bludgeoning device), when the cops tased him. This aspect has been glossed over by many of the media reports.

[snafu]

If the man had not started destroying property and behaving like a nutcase this never would have happened...

 

I can't find anywhere they said he destored any property.

 

But Dziekanski, who spoke only Polish, began acting erratically at the airport. He apparently became upset when he did not see his mother in the secure baggage area, which she was not allowed to enter.

 

I still see no reason for the taseing.

 

 

Travel | Canada to review Taser rules after Vancouver airport death | Seattle Times Newspaper

[Jhony5]

I can't find anywhere they said he destored any property.

 

 

 

I still see no reason for the taseing.

 

 

Travel | Canada to review Taser rules after Vancouver airport death | Seattle Times Newspaper

 

Watch the video, Snafu. He was going bat sh t throwing all manner of objects not bolted down.

 

However, I might have been acting much the same way were I quarantined in a Polish airport for ten hours because the locals were treating me like a f cking space alien.

 

Knowing this man did not speak English should have been cause for the RCMP to stop, discuss and approach the man in a universally recognizable non-threatening manner.

 

As was seen in the video I posted in the OP of this thread. The taser is not being respected and has become a dangerous replacement for tact and communication.

[timesjoke]

I just love the way all the "anti" crowds ignore the series of events, they ignore everything that leads up to an event and pretend the only fact is the ending they feel is wrong to further their "anti" agendas.

 

 

Again we have anti-taser mentality mixed with anti-american or english combined into another futile attempt to put the blame on those who "respond" to bad behavoir and not put the blame on the person who started the ball rolling downhill in the first place.

 

 

This guy was visiting a foreign country where they did not speak his language, some small amount of preperation may be logical in this case. If nothing else, a note pinned to his shirt as we do children who fly could have kept this from happening.

 

 

But more important, him losing his self-control, tossing things and such gained the attention of those whose job it is to keep things under control. In many cases, these officials are lazy and need a very good reason to go out of their way and take this level of action. If you are getting the attention of a law enforcement official, you can only look at yourself to find the reason 99.9% of the time.

 

Do you have any idea how much paperwork must be done after a use of force?

 

Even the most power hungry cop will think twice about doing something when there is two to three hours of report writing to do at the end, much more if it turns into something big like this.

 

 

 

 

But, if it is because we have less patient officers, that is because we run the good cops off by climbing up their behinds with a microscope to second guess everything they do just to appease public opinion or go on witch hunts when the public calls for blood.

 

 

 

The world is not a daycare centre, grown adults need to learn how to take care of themselves, to plan ahead, to take responsibility for their own actions and tempers, not cry that someone else should have been more understanding of their temper tantrums.

[ImWithStupid]

I just love the way all the "anti" crowds ignore the series of events, they ignore everything that leads up to an event and pretend the only fact is the ending they feel is wrong to further their "anti" agendas.

 

Again we have anti-taser mentality mixed with anti-american or english combined into another futile attempt to put the blame on those who "respond" to bad behavoir and not put the blame on the person who started the ball rolling downhill in the first place.

 

This guy was visiting a foreign country where they did not speak his language, some small amount of preperation may be logical in this case. If nothing else, a note pinned to his shirt as we do children who fly could have kept this from happening.

 

But more important, him losing his self-control, tossing things and such gained the attention of those whose job it is to keep things under control. In many cases, these officials are lazy and need a very good reason to go out of their way and take this level of action. If you are getting the attention of a law enforcement official, you can only look at yourself to find the reason 99.9% of the time.

 

Do you have any idea how much paperwork must be done after a use of force?

 

Even the most power hungry cop will think twice about doing something when there is two to three hours of report writing to do at the end, much more if it turns into something big like this.

 

But, if it is because we have less patient officers, that is because we run the good cops off by climbing up their behinds with a microscope to second guess everything they do just to appease public opinion or go on witch hunts when the public calls for blood.

 

The world is not a daycare centre, grown adults need to learn how to take care of themselves, to plan ahead, to take responsibility for their own actions and tempers, not cry that someone else should have been more understanding of their temper tantrums.

 

 

Well put TJ. This is similar to the other incident as both sides could have done things different and the outcome would have been different. The Immigration office could have found a way to communicate with this guy, and they guy could have been prepared better to communicate his needs when he got here. Who knows his mother might have assumed that she could help him when he landed, but didn't know that she couldn't get into the restricted area of the airport without a boarding pass. Again, some research and preparation on her part, and she would have known this.