The Taser. Lazy mans handcuffs?

[ImWithStupid]

Your math skills are not real good.

 

2,500 divided by 45 million equals, 5.5, or 5.5%. What is the problem?

[Jhony5]

2,500 divided by 45 million equals, 5.5, or 5.5%. What is the problem?

 

Did you carry the 1?

 

I hope all of you conformist authoritarians get tased by a d ckheaded cop on your way to the unemployment office Monday.

[timesjoke]

The first thing to remember is this guy was breaking the law by speeding, he started the ball rolling with his criminal actions.

 

He made the ball roll faster by refusing to sign the ticket, ignorance of the law is not an excuse, it is each person's responsibility to know the laws and if he did not know he was being arrested for refusal to sign, that is the criminal's fault, not the officer's responsibility to educate him.

 

 

 

 

 

Notice that I refer to the officer as "pig" and the suspect as "victim". I would think this young piggy is due for some serious disciplinary action at the very least. I would only be satisfied if he were arrested for assault, but that ain't gonna happen. If police continue to use the taser in this irresponsible manner, even I will ardently support the tasers removal from service.

 

The first thing I noticed was your constant use of the term "pig" when talking about a guy who's job can lead to his death in a moment's notice.

 

Many standard traffic stops end with cops laying dead on the ground so every officer must keep that in their mind for every stop they perform while the unruly and disrespectful motorists they stop never have to carry that burdon in their every day life.

 

 

Your disrespectful method of describing a person who puts his life on the line every day is disturbing.

 

You DO NOT pull out a taser before even your handcuffs when arresting a calm non-combative suspect for an extremely minor offense.

 

I am a certified defensive tactics instructor for the State of Florida and that includes ERDs (Electronic Restraint Devices) and you are completely wrong.

 

Handcuffs are never drawn before the subject is ready for cuffing. Handcuffs impair the officers ability to use his hands for other things, including defending himself if the subject decided to resist at the last second. Many officers have been "fish hooked" by the loose end of handcuffs by not being sure the subject was secured before starting to apply them.

 

 

ERDs are becomming popular in law enforcement because it gives another non-lethal option to the officers to get compliance.

 

 

ERDs are very safe to use and have no lingering effects like those from direct physical attempts to gain control over a subject.

 

 

 

 

I have watched this video several times and even though the officer never mentioned he was arresting the subject, I believe most reasonable people would know that was comming and the guy should not have been surprised when asked to turn around and put his hands behind him.

 

The drawing of his ERD "after" the subject refused to comply was a reasonable escalation past verbal command refusal. The subject backed up and displayed characteristics of someone wanting to get away, not comply.

 

 

The resulting ERD use was both legal and justified and without an ERD to use, an officer in that possition must resort to physical contect methods of control that can result in real harm comming to both the subject and the officer not to mention how vulnerable the officer becomes at that point if a passenger decides to come to the aid of the criminal in question.

 

 

 

 

By the way, in order to be certified to teach ERD use I had to be subjected to them many, many times myself. I even "rode the belt" several times (an item similar to a weight lifting belt with probes on it that gives a full 8 second cycle when activated and no way to take it off).

 

Very painful, but with all that pain, there is no serious adverse effects, a great tool for law enforcement.

[ImWithStupid]

The first thing to remember is this guy was breaking the law by speeding, he started the ball rolling with his criminal actions.

 

He made the ball roll faster by refusing to sign the ticket, ignorance of the law is not an excuse, it is each person's responsibility to know the laws and if he did not know he was being arrested for refusal to sign, that is the criminal's fault, not the officer's responsibility to educate him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first thing I noticed was your constant use of the term "pig" when talking about a guy who's job can lead to his death in a moment's notice.

 

Many standard traffic stops end with cops laying dead on the ground so every officer must keep that in their mind for every stop they perform while the unruly and disrespectful motorists they stop never have to carry that burdon in their every day life.

 

 

Your disrespectful method of describing a person who puts his life on the line every day is disturbing.

 

 

 

I am a certified defensive tactics instructor for the State of Florida and that includes ERDs (Electronic Restraint Devices) and you are completely wrong.

 

Handcuffs are never drawn before the subject is ready for cuffing. Handcuffs impair the officers ability to use his hands for other things, including defending himself if the subject decided to resist at the last second. Many officers have been "fish hooked" by the loose end of handcuffs by not being sure the subject was secured before starting to apply them.

 

 

ERDs are becomming popular in law enforcement because it gives another non-lethal option to the officers to get compliance.

 

 

ERDs are very safe to use and have no lingering effects like those from direct physical attempts to gain control over a subject.

 

 

 

 

I have watched this video several times and even though the officer never mentioned he was arresting the subject, I believe most reasonable people would know that was comming and the guy should not have been surprised when asked to turn around and put his hands behind him.

 

The drawing of his ERD "after" the subject refused to comply was a reasonable escalation past verbal command refusal. The subject backed up and displayed characteristics of someone wanting to get away, not comply.

 

 

The resulting ERD use was both legal and justified and without an ERD to use, an officer in that possition must resort to physical contect methods of control that can result in real harm comming to both the subject and the officer not to mention how vulnerable the officer becomes at that point if a passenger decides to come to the aid of the criminal in question.

 

 

 

 

By the way, in order to be certified to teach ERD use I had to be subjected to them many, many times myself. I even "rode the belt" several times (an item similar to a weight lifting belt with probes on it that gives a full 8 second cycle when activated and no way to take it off).

 

Very painful, but with all that pain, there is no serious adverse effects, a great tool for law enforcement.

 

I agree with you completely and this is similar to the point I have been trying to say all throughout this thread.

 

I will only add that even though this officer was justified in what he did, he could have used better communication to avoid this outcome.

[Jhony5]

The first thing I noticed was your constant use of the term "pig" when talking about a guy who's job can lead to his death in a moment's notice.

I respect police officers. I know many of them and have BBQ's and beers with police every summer at my brothers house.

 

I do not respect pigs and I dislike referring to them as "officer" much the same way I dislike referring to "Doctors" as such when they rape their patients.

 

Many standard traffic stops end with cops laying dead on the ground so every officer must keep that in their mind for every stop they perform while the unruly and disrespectful motorists they stop never have to carry that burdon in their every day life.

This is a bulls it line, TJ. Just watch the video and tell me if he saw Massey as a threat?

 

Go on, watch it. Then explain to me why he turns his back on a man that he's about to pull a dangerous weapon on. This is bad police procedure. To turn your back like he did for several seconds after he gets Massey out of the vehicle. He wasn't viewing Massey as a threat. He was angry and intent on teaching him a lesson.

 

Your disrespectful method of describing a person who puts his life on the line every day is disturbing.

You're blind protection of overzealous and angry police is what's disturbing. I have respect for police. I have no respect for bad cops. Especially when they tell lies and punish people with violence over a very simple traffic stop.

 

I have watched this video several times and even though the officer never mentioned he was arresting the subject, I believe most reasonable people would know that was coming and the guy should not have been surprised when asked to turn around and put his hands behind him.

 

The drawing of his ERD "after" the subject refused to comply was a reasonable escalation past verbal command refusal. The subject backed up and displayed characteristics of someone wanting to get away, not comply.

What you're trying to say goes against what the Utah Highway Patrol has set as guidelines for taser use. He drew his weapon BEFORE giving Mr Massey a chance to comply with an order that had not yet been given. He didn't tell Massey that was being placed under arrest when he asked him to get out of the car. He told him to "Hop out of the vehicle", turned his back on Massey and walked several feet away to his patrol car. Set his clipboard down on the hood of his car and stood behind Massey's back and pulled his taser while shouting "Put your hands behind you back". This is not proper procedure, Timesjoke.

 

If you have no reason to use your taser, you have no reason to pull your taser. These things are not toys and hundreds of people are injured from their use annually. Some even die. According to the Utah Highway Patrols spokesman Cameron Roden, there are only three circumstances in which an officer may use his taser;

 

 

Salt Lake Tribune - UHP on defense in Taser incident

Troopers that carry Tasers must take a four-hour certification course outlining how and when to use the devices, according to UHP's nine-page policy. They are taught to use them in three circumstances:

When a person is a threat to themselves, an officer or another person.

In cases where the physical use of force would endanger the person or someone else.

When other means of lesser or equal force by the officer has been ineffective and a threat still exists.

 

None of these three situations apply to Massey.

 

By the way, in order to be certified to teach ERD use I had to be subjected to them many, many times myself. I even "rode the belt" several times (an item similar to a weight lifting belt with probes on it that gives a full 8 second cycle when activated and no way to take it off).

 

And did you suffer a serious injury when you fell on the hard pavement? Ohhhhh...........thats right. You did this on a padded surface, knew it was coming and you had two people spotting you. The #1 cause of serious injury during the application of the taser is from the fall, not the taser.

I will only add that even though this officer was justified in what he did, he could have used better communication to avoid this outcome.

He was justified in using the taser, but not in drawing it out in the first place.

 

If there is no reason to use a taser. Than there is no reason to draw your taser.

 

 

Officer Gardner (AKA piglet) most certainly should have at least informed Mr Massey of his intention to arrest, thusly affording Massey a chance to avoid an unnecessary arrest.

 

In case there is any confusion about this application of arrest during a simple traffic violation; From the same interview with UHP spokesman Roden;

When drivers sign traffic tickets, they are not necessarily admitting guilt but merely acknowledging they will show up at court or to pay the ticket, Roden said.

In the event that a motorist refuses to sign, a trooper can simply write "refuses to sign" on the citation, which is then given to the driver, or they can chose to arrest the motorist, Roden said.

Given the circumstances Gardner could have simply informed him of what his decision would be. I doubt, given his background, that Massey would have chosen the arrest option.

 

If you want to defend officer Gardner, TJ, than defend what he lied to his supervisor.

 

 

HERE is the lie, as pointed out by ABC news;

ABC News: Utah Cop's Itchy Taser Finger Probed

A second officer arrives on the scene and Gardner explains the incident to him. "He was completely in charge," he said, describing Massey's behavior.

 

"I said, 'Hop out, put your hands behind your back.' He didn't do it," Gardner told his colleague. "I said, 'Put your hands behind your back.'" When Massey refused to follow his order, Gardner continued, "I said no, I'm not playing that game, pull out the Taser, 'Turn around, right now, or I'll Taser you.'" The colleague responded, "Good for you."

 

He claims to have asked twice for the man to submit to arrest before pulling his taser. This is a lie. One which I doubt will fly under the radar of the external investigators that are looking into this matter.

 

There is nothing illegal or wrong about asking an officer questions about a stop. No, it is not the place to hold court but that is not what Massey was doing. He was asking questions that were pertinent to the case. He was also pointing out Gardner's use of a speed trap tactic that I find quite dubious.

Gardner only pulled his taser for one reason. Because Massey was asking too many questions and he didn't want to take a minute and answer them... Well guess what, if you set a speed trap and take peoples time by stopping them, you're gonna get asked some questions.

 

Gardner pulled his taser out of anger. This is against police policy.

[timesjoke]

 

I respect police officers. I know many of them and have BBQ's and beers with police every summer at my brothers house.

 

I do not respect pigs and I dislike referring to them as "officer" much the same way I dislike referring to "Doctors" as such when they rape their patients.

 

You know nothing about this officer but lable him as bad just because things happened you don't like. Pure disrespect for those that keep you safe.

 

 

This is a bulls it line, TJ. Just watch the video and tell me if he saw Massey as a threat?

 

Go on, watch it. Then explain to me why he turns his back on a man that he's about to pull a dangerous weapon on. This is bad police procedure. To turn your back like he did for several seconds after he gets Massey out of the vehicle. He wasn't viewing Massey as a threat. He was angry and intent on teaching him a lesson.

 

Then why give the verbal order to tun and put his hands behind him?

 

That is what completely destroys your assumption, obviously the officer was arresting the subject, he clearly told the subject to turn around, the subject refused to comply and the officer needed to escalate based on the refusal to comply.

 

 

You're blind protection of overzealous and angry police is what's disturbing. I have respect for police. I have no respect for bad cops. Especially when they tell lies and punish people with violence over a very simple traffic stop.

 

First, the driver had to break the law to get stopped. Second, the driver got angry and refused to sign the ticket, third the driver refused a lawful order from the officer to turn and put his hands behind him, that makes three strikes, your out and all the fault of the driver, not the officer.

 

You needing to demonise the officer and call him names is a sign of your disrespect in general for cops and what they do for society.

 

 

What you're trying to say goes against what the Utah Highway Patrol has set as guidelines for taser use. He drew his weapon BEFORE giving Mr Massey a chance to comply with an order that had not yet been given. He didn't tell Massey that was being placed under arrest when he asked him to get out of the car. He told him to "Hop out of the vehicle", turned his back on Massey and walked several feet away to his patrol car. Set his clipboard down on the hood of his car and stood behind Massey's back and pulled his taser while shouting "Put your hands behind you back". This is not proper procedure, Timesjoke.

 

The officer gave the command before he drew the taser.

 

 

If you have no reason to use your taser, you have no reason to pull your taser. These things are not toys and hundreds of people are injured from their use annually. Some even die. According to the Utah Highway Patrols spokesman Cameron Roden, there are only three circumstances in which an officer may use his taser;

 

There are no deaths directly caused by tasers first of all.

 

Second, look at this part of what you posted:

In cases where the physical use of force would endanger the person or someone else.

 

ERD's are popular because all forms of physical force have a greater chance of harm comming to both the subject and the officer so this covers all situations where force is needed to gain compliance to a lawful order.

 

None of these three situations apply to Massey.

 

In a way, they all do, everyone can be a possible threat to the officer or society at any time, all other forms of physical force have greater chance of harm, and the officer already attempted non-physical methods by giving his instruction that was ignored.

 

 

And did you suffer a serious injury when you fell on the hard pavement? Ohhhhh...........thats right. You did this on a padded surface, knew it was coming and you had two people spotting you. The #1 cause of serious injury during the application of the taser is from the fall, not the taser.

 

Some of my training was on padded mats but I took many applications in real life action with acted out traffic stopps, street stopps, jail extractions, etc.....

 

I know exactly what it feels like to have an ERD used on me in every possible situation, I even took a hit in the groin from a friend who thought it was a good joke to pull on me (he changed his mind when I popped a can of pepper mace in the bathroom on him and locked him in).

 

He was justified in using the taser, but not in drawing it out in the first place.

 

If there is no reason to use a taser. Than there is no reason to draw your taser.

 

Wrong, drawing his taser is a reasonable escalation after the subjest refuses to comply with a lwaful order, remember, I teach this stuff.

 

Officer Gardner (AKA piglet) most certainly should have at least informed Mr Massey of his intention to arrest, thusly affording Massey a chance to avoid an unnecessary arrest.

 

While he "could" have attempted to educate the man about the law, it is not his responsibility to do so.

 

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

In case there is any confusion about this application of arrest during a simple traffic violation; From the same interview with UHP spokesman Roden;

Given the circumstances Gardner could have simply informed him of what his decision would be. I doubt, given his background, that Massey would have chosen the arrest option.

 

Again, it is not the officer's responsibility to educat the person on the law, if he did I would have no problem with that but there is no rule saying the officer "must" first act as the subject's lawyer then be a police officer.

 

 

If you want to defend officer Gardner, TJ, than defend what he lied to his supervisor.

 

He is human and a traffic stop can lead to his death so there is a lot of stress an officer must deal with at the time of a stop, something you have no clue about.

 

The main facts are that the man was stopped for traffic violations, the man escaled the situation by refusing to sign the ticket, and further added fuel to the flames of the incident by refusing the lawful order to turn and put his hands behind him.

 

This is all his fault, not the cops.

 

 

There is nothing illegal or wrong about asking an officer questions about a stop. No, it is not the place to hold court but that is not what Massey was doing. He was asking questions that were pertinent to the case. He was also pointing out Gardner's use of a speed trap tactic that I find quite dubious.

Gardner only pulled his taser for one reason. Because Massey was asking too many questions and he didn't want to take a minute and answer them... Well guess what, if you set a speed trap and take peoples time by stopping them, you're gonna get asked some questions.

 

There is something worng if you are refusing to comply with commands by the officer at the same time. You must first comply, debating the merits of the case is something that happens in courts, not the side of the road.

 

 

Gardner pulled his taser out of anger. This is against police policy.

 

Nope, the video clearly shows him drawing the taser "after" the failure to follow the order to turn and put his hands behind his back, no anger there.

[Jhony5]

Nope, the video clearly shows him drawing the taser "after" the failure to follow the order to turn and put his hands behind his back, no anger there.

I have no idea how you can say this. Massey exited his vehicle upon request and followed Gardner to his patrol car. He stood there and began motioning toward the sign in question. With his back turned, the officer started to draw his taser, asked him to put his hands behind his back. Massey turned toward him in confusion, not knowing he was being arrested and was rightfully shocked (excuse the pun). Then Gardner starts screaming at him with a dangerous weapon pointed at him. Massey didn't have a split second to comply before being shown violent force. That is not within the policies stipulated by the 9 page taser manual issued to the UHP.

 

Again, I am not arguing what happened AFTER he pulled the taser. I am arguing about what happened to cause him to pull it out.

Then why give the verbal order to tun and put his hands behind him?

 

That is what completely destroys your assumption, obviously the officer was arresting the subject, he clearly told the subject to turn around, the subject refused to comply and the officer needed to escalate based on the refusal to comply.

 

You have to give a non-combatant traffic violator more than .002 seconds to understand that he's being arrested. He wasn't told before hand that he was getting out of his vehicle to be placed under arrest. In that case it would be different.

 

My point stands. If Gardner viewed Massey as a combatant threat, he would most certainly not have turned his back and walked for 15 feet with his back turned to the suspect. This was a sort of Freudian slip. Indicating that he didn't view Massey as threatening. Rather, he was just angry and wanted to show Massey who the boss is on this particular stretch of highway.

 

You know nothing about this officer but lable him as bad just because things happened you don't like. Pure disrespect for those that keep you safe.

 

I view him as a pig. A pig will abuse his state granted authority and act in anger to questioning. Some cops can take it. Some cannot. Pigs cannot.

 

First, the driver had to break the law to get stopped.

Don't get all preachy with that holier than thou bullsh t. ITS A TRAFFIC STOP! For a minor speeding infraction. This was not a hazardous driving incident.

 

Second, the driver got angry and refused to sign the ticket,

He wasn't shouting. He said quite calmly, "I'm not signing anything". Had Gardner simply said, "Sign it or I will CHOOSE to arrest you", than this whole thing never gets aired on youtube.

 

Or Gardner could have just knocked off the bull and let him go without signing it. The signature means NOTHING in court. NOTHING!

 

third the driver refused a lawful order from the officer to turn and put his hands behind him

He didn't have time to refuse before getting violent force aimed at him. As citizens we should be alarmed when police circumvent policy and insert their own sequence of arrest procedure. YES, Massey should have given up the resistance when he realized that this jerkoff was actually arresting him at gun point. But that doesn't excuse the act of pulling the taser out in the first place. Tasers are dangerous weapons that have unpredictable side effects. From the fall that follows.

 

A taser will not normally kill by itself from the 50,000 volt shock. Usually there are contributing factors such as acute cocaine toxicity or a phenomenon known as Excitement Delirium. Which occurs when a person is whipped into a frenzy, their heart rate becomes dangerously high and actually resembles cocaine toxicity. Add the taser and its a death sentence. I support tasers being used by police. But they need to be judicious in the tasers application.

 

The officer gave the command before he drew the taser.

I've watched that video a few dozen times. And every time I watch it I see Gardner pulling it AS he's giving the command. How can you dispute this?

 

ERD's are popular because all forms of physical force have a greater chance of harm comming to both the subject and the officer so this covers all situations where force is needed to gain compliance to a lawful order.

I understand all that. But there was no danger to anyone UNTIL Gardner pulled his sidearm. This man showed no sign of needing to be restrained. I posted it for you, TJ. The UHP's three prong "justifiable taser usage" policy. Yes, once the taser was out and Massey turned, placed his hand in his pocket and walked to his truck, he was 100% justified in using the taser. The dispute on my part is why did he use force to arrest a man that did not need restrained? If he had said "put your hands behind your back" BEFORE he pulls his taser, than I agree with you. But Gardner did not. The first signification that Massey was given that he was being arrested was starring down what he thought was a gun barrel.

 

He gave Massey approximately .002 seconds to comply. Prove to me that anywhere before he pulls his taser, that he gave an arrest command.

 

Wrong, drawing his taser is a reasonable escalation after the subject refuses to comply with a lawful order, remember, I teach this stuff.

 

We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this point. Massey was given no reasonable chance to comply before being shown excessive force. My brother is a 6-7 year veteran police officer in one of Indianapolis' worst neighborhoods, the Fountain Square district. His opinion matches mine. That Gardner was too quick on the draw. Pulling that taser could have gotten Gardner shot if Massey was a bad person.

 

While he "could" have attempted to educate the man about the law, it is not his responsibility to do so.

 

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

"Could"? You mean "should". He "should" have informed Massey that he would choose to arrest him in this circumstance. Arrest is not a default procedure in this circumstance. Therefor I feel police have a duty to inform people of their intentions if the police are going to choose to arrest a man for refusing to write on a piece of paper, the act itself being utterly meaningless.

 

Again, it is not the officer's responsibility to educate the person on the law, if he did I would have no problem with that but there is no rule saying the officer "must" first act as the subject's lawyer then be a police officer.

This is not a question of acting as a roadside attorney. This is about maintaining a civil atmosphere with a less than hospitable driver. The best way to maintain a civil relationship was to circumvent the unpleasantness of an arrest over such a petty offense. It is the mandated duty of a police officer to remain calm and not allow his emotions to guide his actions.

 

He is human and a traffic stop can lead to his death so there is a lot of stress an officer must deal with at the time of a stop, something you have no clue about.

I have witnessed countless dozens of traffic stops. Right there with the police. I have rode with the police approximately 40 times in the last 7 years. I have seen my brother and his co-workers get screamed and cursed at, and remain calm and civil, diffusing the situation entirely. I have seen the handcuffs come out so many times I cannot count.

 

Since you point out the danger of a traffic stop, and rightfully so, I will again point out yet another egregious error by officer Gardner. Turning his back on a subject that he is about to arrest. My brother and his co-workers NEVER do this. Not to anyone, at any time will they turn their back on the subject of a traffic stop. It is dangerous. That is why an officer should do everything in his playbook to keep the situation calm. Such as; Informing Massey of his intent to arrest. This would have done it but he chose not to. Because he was embroiled in a stand off of machismo.

[snafu]

You know I watch that over and over and it gets funnier everytime. What a dumb ! What would make you walk away from a cop pointing something at you? WTF was he thinking? Yes the cop was over zealous for sure. It was not warented and he should be reprimanded. But the driver was a total idiot.

[snafu]

I mean my hands would be up so fast it would make your head spin!

 

"Oh Officer! Anything, anything, I'll do anything just don't shoot!"

[eddo]

"don't tase me Bro! Don't tase me!"

 

LMAO!

[wez]

"don't tase me Bro! Don't tase me!"

 

LMAO!

 

 

Hahahahaha... as long as it's not you, a tasering does make for good comedy.

 

 

I haven't watched the vid or anything but I gotta agree Snaf, you listen to a cop.

[snafu]

Hahahahaha... as long as it's not you, a tasering does make for good comedy.

 

 

I haven't watched the vid or anything but I gotta agree Snaf, you listen to a cop.

 

OK I'm sorry but this teasing was funny. You have to laugh at stupidity. Comon sense tells you the man was dealing with a cop on the edge. The cop dose the weaver stance pointing a taser at you for god sakes! You do what your told!

[wez]

OK I'm sorry but this teasing was funny. You have to laugh at stupidity. Comon sense tells you the man was dealing with a cop on the edge. He dose the weaver stance pointing a taser at you for god sakes! you do what your told!

 

 

Hahahahahaha.. Weaver. I liked Columbo myself, never had to fire a shot.

 

 

Those are the cops you really want to listen to! I cease to be a rebel if an overzealous cop points his finger at me. Hahahaha

[ImWithStupid]

My point stands. If Gardner viewed Massey as a combatant threat, he would most certainly not have turned his back and walked for 15 feet with his back turned to the suspect. This was a sort of Freudian slip. Indicating that he didn't view Massey as threatening. Rather, he was just angry and wanted to show Massey who the boss is on this particular stretch of highway.

 

If the trooper thought Massey was a threat when he exited the vehicle he would have used force or threat of force at that point. It wasn't until Massey refused the first command to get in a cuffing posture that he pulled his taser out. (watch the video again)

 

Don't get all preachy with that holier than thou bullsh t. ITS A TRAFFIC STOP!

 

Also the reason for the entire situation.

 

He wasn't shouting. He said quite calmly, "I'm not signing anything". Had Gardner simply said, "Sign it or I will CHOOSE to arrest you", than this whole thing never gets aired on youtube.

 

He was trying to tell the officer what to do. He said he wouldn't sign the ticket, then said, "First of all if you're giving me a ticket, you're gonna tell me why." The officer said for speeding and Massey cut him off, raising his voice over ther officer's saying, "And Second you are going to show me where this sign is." He is already being verbally non-compliant. The officer then told him he needed to sign the ticket first, and Massey again refused.

 

Had Massey simply signed the ticket and plead his case to a judge in court as it should be done, it never gets aired on youtube.

 

I've watched that video a few dozen times. And every time I watch it I see Gardner pulling it AS he's giving the command. How can you dispute this?

 

Watch it again. He made the command, Massey didn't comply. There was a full 10 seconds of repeated commands before the taser (i.e. the force) was used. Until that time it was only a threat of force.

 

I understand all that. But there was no danger to anyone UNTIL Gardner pulled his sidearm. This man showed no sign of needing to be restrained. I posted it for you, TJ. The UHP's three prong "justifiable taser usage" policy. Yes, once the taser was out and Massey turned, placed his hand in his pocket and walked to his truck, he was 100% justified in using the taser.

 

Key words TASER USAGE. Until the officer pulled the trigger the taser (i.e. force) wasn't used.

 

The dispute on my part is why did he use force to arrest a man that did not need restrained? If he had said "put your hands behind your back" BEFORE he pulls his taser, than I agree with you. But Gardner did not.

 

He didn't. He USED the threat of force on someone who was passively non-compliant and had to escalate to the USE of force on someone who became physically resistant by walking away, and the force still wasn't USED until Massey made a furtive movement by reaching in his pocket.

 

 

The first signification that Massey was given that he was being arrested was starring down what he thought was a gun barrel.

 

Bullsh1t, he thought it was a gun. What made it look like a gun barrel? The 2" by 2" flouresent green square?

TASER

 

And if he truly thought it was a gun, he would have been a compliant MF, and a complete idiot if he wasn't.

 

We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

I think so.

[Jhony5]

I mean my hands would be up so fast it would make your head spin!

 

"Oh Officer! Anything, anything, I'll do anything just don't shoot!"

 

And you think this is an appropriate response to be forced into over a traffic violation? People shouldn't have to "Oh my god don't shoot me officer" over a traffic ticket.

 

You know I watch that over and over and it gets funnier everytime. What a dumb ! What would make you walk away from a cop pointing something at you? WTF was he thinking? Yes the cop was over zealous for sure. He should be reprimanded. It was not warented. But the driver was a total idiot

I will not defend Massey for his lack of understanding that once a cop pulls a weapon on you, he will use it if you don't submit like a good little puppy.

 

Citizens have a right to question police that stop them, the same that a cop has the right to question them. As long as the citizen does not impede the investigation. Refusing to sign does not impede the investigation. As explained by the UHP's spokesman Cameron Roden, an officer may write 'refuses to sign' on the ticket and send the driver on his way.

[snafu]

And you think this is an appropriate response to be forced into over a traffic violation? People shouldn't have to "Oh my god don't shoot me officer" over a traffic ticket.

 

I will not defend Massey for his lack of understanding that once a cop pulls a weapon on you, he will use it if you don't submit like a good little puppy.

 

Citizens have a right to question police that stop them, the same that a cop has the right to question them. As long as the citizen does not impede the investigation. Refusing to sign does not impede the investigation. As explained by the UH P's spokesman Cameron Roden, an officer may write 'refuses to sign' on the ticket and send the driver on his way.

 

No it's not appropriate and the cop should be reprimanded. Send him to obedience school I don't know. But I don't care if its a cop or buster the clown if they point a weapon at you you do what your told and deal with it later.

[snafu]

I've dealt with cops before. Quite a few run ins in my day. I think I was only cuffed once in all my run-ins. Yah see I respect that badge. He dose have powers over me.

[Jhony5]

Watch it again. He made the command, Massey didn't comply. There was a full 10 seconds of repeated commands before the taser (i.e. the force) was used. Until that time it was only a threat of force.

I'm not disputing the application of the taser. Once it's out, the officer has no choice if the person walks back toward their vehicle.

 

I'm only disputing the officer's inability to prevent this from happening as well as his overzealous use of force; Speaking of him pulling it out in the first place. When an officer uses a weapon to gain compliance, he is using force. This is why police are mandated to use other tactics to gain compliance FIRST. If they fail, then they are permitted to use force.

Also the reason for the entire situation.

Well I think you might change your tune on that if you ever get pulled over by a cop that tells you that you did something that you know you didn't do, and you ask him to explain why he is citing you for this.

 

Imagine that you are ignorant of this law (refusing to sign being an arrestable option) and the cop says "hop out". Then he points a weapon at you and starts screaming. I sure "WTF" would be your first reaction.

 

Key words TASER USAGE. Until the officer pulled the trigger the taser (i.e. force) wasn't used.

If you wish to lean on this failure in logic than you must take it all the way. And say that police should be allowed to draw a weapon on you before they even ask for your drivers license upon pulling you over for speeding. Hey, it's not force until you use it right? So why not just pull that Glock on every speeder and be on the safe side? Speeding is technically a criminal offense so why not, aye?

 

He didn't. He USED the threat of force on someone who was passively non-compliant and had to escalate to the USE of force on someone who became physically resistant by walking away, and the force still wasn't USED until Massey made a furtive movement by reaching in his pocket.

Again, I am not going to debate what happened AFTER the taser was out. The point of contention on my part is what happened BEFORE the taser was pulled out.

 

Why won't you people recognize the fact that Gardner was angry and acted out of anger?

 

I don't know about you fellas, but I don't want it to become protocol that police can draw down on you if they're angry. I am always respectful and courteous when dealing with police. That didn't stop one particular Whiteland officer from cursing at me like I was a b tch just because I had a 4 day expired plate. He started yelling at me and saying "F ck" at least once per sentence. I explained that I had simply forgot. His response? "I hear that f cking sh t all the time. If you can't afford plates, DON'T F CKING DRIVE YOUR TRUCK". When I asked him to watch his mouth in front of my daughter, he opened my door and TOLD me to get out. No reason for it, he just wanted to dress me down and force me to comply. A way of strutting his dominance. Now if what you and the others are saying becomes standard practice, then the officer could have pulled his weapon on me.

 

Bullsh t, he thought it was a gun. What made it look like a gun barrel? The 2" by 2" fluorescent green square?

You are making an assumption that Massey noticed the florescence or even knew what that meant. He is not a hardened criminal. He is a family man that asked to many questions. I doubt he knows much about police issued gear, florescent markings or what they mean.

 

And if he truly thought it was a gun, he would have been a compliant MF, and a complete idiot if he wasn't.

Human psychology is a complex matter. Massey may have been so scared he was about to sh t his pants and simply reacted in a nonsensical manner. I have no idea. His defiance was ignorant. Putting his hand in his pocket like he did indicates to me that he had no idea what was going on or what to do. One minute he's being badgered by a traffic monitor and the next he is being threatened with a weapon.

 

I feel he was forced into this erratic and bizarre reaction by having a taser drawn on him for simply voicing his right to free speech and refusing to write his name on a piece of paper.

[Jhony5]

I've dealt with cops before. Quite a few run ins in my day. I think I was only cuffed once in all my run-ins. Yah see I respect that badge. He dose have powers over me.

 

Do you "respect the badge" after the badge disrespects you? I don't. When I was put through these motions by an as hole cop, I complied because I knew he would charge me with obstruction or some bullsh t, possibly slam me to the concrete for not complying. I complied. I also told him he is a sorry excuse for a piece of pork and complained to his supervisor in the most cordial manner I could manage.

[snafu]

Many moons ago a buddy and I decided to ride some bikes to the liquor store. Well he didn?t have the key to his shed and so we took the hinges off to obtain the bikes we were going to use. A helpful neighbor saw us and called the cops thinking we were stealing the bikes. We get a half a block and four cop cars and god knows how many cops converge on us. Weapons drawn mind you. ?Up against the car!? Ohhh ! Bam! I?m against the car. My friend starts to explain that it was his house we were at. Thankfully he talked one of the cops to allow him to go back to the house and show that he had the house keys. Meanwhile I have this female police officer in the weaver stance barreling down on me. Another cop had to tell her to put the gun away. I mean I was surrounded, wasn?t like I was going anywhere. So she holsters up and asks me ?So what did it feel like with a women holding a gun on you?? I?m not making this up. I said ?I don?t care if it was man women or beast, if it can pull the trigger.? Talk about overzealous cops. I could?a died! But I did what I was told.

[eddo]

When I was put through these motions by an as hole cop, I complied because I knew he would charge me with obstruction or some bullsh t, possibly slam me to the concrete for not complying. I complied. I also told him he is a sorry excuse for a piece of pork and complained to his supervisor in the most cordial manner I could manage.

 

And that is a proper way to handle it. Keeps you from getting shot, or tazed.

 

 

The dude in the video DID NOT do that. He turned to walk back to his car, his wife kept getting out, he stuck his hands in his pocket, and he kept not doing what he was told to do.

 

and he got tazed. then he listened, and he is fine.

 

and out of it all, I got to laugh at him.

 

It's all good.

[Jhony5]

And that is a proper way to handle it. Keeps you from getting shot, or tazed.

 

 

The dude in the video DID NOT do that. He turned to walk back to his car, his wife kept getting out, he stuck his hands in his pocket, and he kept not doing what he was told to do.

 

and he got tazed. then he listened, and he is fine.

 

and out of it all, I got to laugh at him.

 

It's all good.

 

I would agree fully with one exception. The officer escalated this event to a violent show of force because Massey was still talking about the errant stop. Not because he refused to comply with an arrest. He didn't know this was an arrest. Why do you think the issue is, in the words of the UHP, "Taken very seriously"?

 

This is because the UHP is looking at the same thing that you and I are and they're seeing what I'm seeing. An officer fail to make the correct decisions and fail to communicate properly with an upset person. Also they see an officer draw his taser while he gave an arrest command. They will let Officer Gardner off lightly. Probably a reprimand and assign him to some communication and verbal diffusion tactics classes. I would recommend anger management.

 

But if they so much as discipline him in the slightest, it will serve as an indication that he bears the burden of the blame because he is supposed to control the incident. Not allow himself to be controlled by anger.

 

If Massey had cracked his skull on the blacktop or been run over by a passing motorist, who often ram the cars due to rubber-necking, let alone a helpless paralyzed man laying in the road, Officer Massey may be looking at serious criminal charges.

[ImWithStupid]

Many moons ago a buddy and I decided to ride some bikes to the liquor store. Well he didn?t have the key to his shed and so we took the hinges off to obtain the bikes we were going to use. A helpful neighbor saw us and called the cops thinking we were stealing the bikes. We get a half a block and four cop cars and god knows how many cops converge on us. Weapons drawn mind you. ?Up against the car!? Ohhh ! Bam! I?m against the car. My friend starts to explain that it was his house we were at. Thankfully he talked one of the cops to allow him to go back to the house and show that he had the house keys. Meanwhile I have this female police officer in the weaver stance barreling down on me. Another cop had to tell her to put the gun away. I mean I was surrounded, wasn?t like I was going anywhere. So she holsters up and asks me ?So what did it feel like with a women holding a gun on you?? I?m not making this up. I said ?I don?t care if it was man women or beast, if it can pull the trigger.? Talk about overzealous cops. I could?a died! But I did what I was told.

 

Good thing you weren't in Texas. The neighbor could have shot you protecting his neighbor's property.

[ImWithStupid]

I would agree fully with one exception. The officer escalated this event to a violent show of force because Massey was still talking about the errant stop. Not because he refused to comply with an arrest. He didn't know this was an arrest. Why do you think the issue is, in the words of the UHP, "Taken very seriously"?

 

This is because the UHP is looking at the same thing that you and I are and they're seeing what I'm seeing. An officer fail to make the correct decisions and fail to communicate properly with an upset person. Also they see an officer draw his taser while he gave an arrest command. They will let Officer Gardner off lightly. Probably a reprimand and assign him to some communication and verbal diffusion tactics classes. I would recommend anger management.

 

 

I said from the beginning that the officer didn't communicate very well and that both people could have done things differenty. You are the one who refuses to put any blame on the driver, prior to the tasing.

 

As for Massey just "talking" about the stop. He was refusing to sign the ticket and diving demands to the officer while raising his voice at the officer. Part of the officer's job is the control the scene and safety. Giving orders to the officer and making demands on what was going to happen, might make the officer want to get control back.

 

All he had to do, as I've stated before, if he didn't agree with the ticket, he just had to go back after signing the ticket and checking to see if there was another sign. If there was, move on. If there wasn't take it to court.

 

The officer definitely, should have communicated the consequences of refusing to sign, better (although not required to do so), and should have given him more time to comply with the arrest.

 

As for the, "he didn't know what the green square was" thing. I've never seen a gun barrel that looks like that. (not even on Star Wars)

[Jhony5]

said from the beginning that the officer didn't communicate very well and that both people could have done things differenty. You are the one who refuses to put any blame on the driver, prior to the tasing.

It's hard too. For two reasons;

1) The officer should control the situation, not the driver. He should be able, in most cases, to do this WITHOUT showing violent force. Simply telling this man of the ramifications of his refusal would have been suffice. MANY people are unaware that speeding is technically an arrestable offense.

 

2) Once out of the vehicle and intent on arrest, the officer should have made himself clear as to his intentions before resorting to a show of force with a weapon.

 

I cannot blame Massey for having that taser pulled out. I can blame him for getting tased once it did.

 

Giving orders to the officer and making demands on what was going to happen, might make the officer want to get control back.

That's being a bit shortsighted, ain't it? Massey only requested his clocked speed and wished clarification as to how he could be speeding when he hasn't reached the speed limit sign point yet. I never heard him shout at the officer. Not once.

 

All he had to do, as I've stated before, if he didn't agree with the ticket, he just had to go back after signing the ticket and checking to see if there was another sign. If there was, move on. If there wasn't take it to court.

True. He could have done this. But his defiance of the stop should not have led to his violent arrest. All the cop had to do was wish him good luck and send him on his way with a ticket that read "Refuses to sign". But no. Gardner was angry because the puny citizen thinks he can tell him he was wrong. "I'll show him".

 

Thats a dangerous attitude for a cop.

 

As for the, "he didn't know what the green square was" thing. I've never seen a gun barrel that looks like that.

Maybe he was looking at the cops eyes, not the colored tape on his gun?

 

Either way, at that point Massey reacted in a bizarre manner. A manner that may be indicative of the probability that even if officer Gardner had asked him politely several times to "turn around and put your hands behind your back", Massey may well have ended up getting zapped anyway if you want to know the truth.

 

He argued about the ticket. He argued about signing it. He most likely would have argued about the arrest, turned and walked away. The only difference is, in that case, the Utah state board of internal investigation wouldn't even look at this case.