Muslims and western society

[timesjoke]

With this new story:

Teen dead after alleged attack by father

 

It included this supposed reason for the killing:

Aqsa Parvez's friends told CBC News that the teen had been having arguments with her father because he allegedly wanted her to wear a traditional hijab.

 

In my opinion, it seems like western societies are attacked as being intolerant and unaccepting of muslim people but in reality, it is them who push to change western society into being more like their societies.

 

We see examples of this kind of behavoirs all over the world where muslims have gathered in large numbers, all attempting to drastically change these places. In Canada, there is a hard fought battle going on to allow sharia law (in limited scope) to be practiced there, mostly family law areas.

 

I have nothing against muslims other then the ones that are terrorists, but why do we have to give up our traditions (like Christmas decorations) to be considered tolerant?

[wez]

With this new story:

Teen dead after alleged attack by father

 

It included this supposed reason for the killing:

 

 

In my opinion, it seems like western societies are attacked as being intolerant and unaccepting of muslim people but in reality, it is them who push to change western society into being more like their societies.

 

We see examples of this kind of behavoirs all over the world where muslims have gathered in large numbers, all attempting to drastically change these places. In Canada, there is a hard fought battle going on to allow sharia law (in limited scope) to be practiced there, mostly family law areas.

 

I have nothing against muslims other then the ones that are terrorists, but why do we have to give up our traditions (like Christmas decorations) to be considered tolerant?

 

 

People are people, some tolerant, some intolerant assholes. Who's "we"?

[timesjoke]

People are people, some tolerant, some intolerant assholes. Who's "we"?

 

 

We western society people, I don't know if your just being silly or you are incapable of average reading comprehension but either way, it gets old constantly taking the time to educate you on every tiny detail, it is like you are isolated on your own world, away from reality.

 

 

 

Again, who is truly intolerant, the established society or the new members that feel we must completely change ourselves to accept them?

[wez]

We western society people, I don't know if your just being silly or you are incapable of average reading comprehension but either way, it gets old constantly taking the time to educate you on every tiny detail, it is like you are isolated on your own world, away from reality.

 

 

 

Again, who is truly intolerant, the established society or the new members that feel we must completely change ourselves to accept them?

 

 

"We" western society people are not one entity. "We" are all individual human beings. Just as "muslims" are not a living entity, but rather individual human beings as well. Pretty important details whilst trying to condemn hundreds of millions of people based on beliefs. Are you intolerant of muslims?

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

With this new story:

Teen dead after alleged attack by father

 

It included this supposed reason for the killing:

 

 

In my opinion, it seems like western societies are attacked as being intolerant and unaccepting of muslim people but in reality, it is them who push to change western society into being more like their societies.

 

We see examples of this kind of behavoirs all over the world where muslims have gathered in large numbers, all attempting to drastically change these places. In Canada, there is a hard fought battle going on to allow sharia law (in limited scope) to be practiced there, mostly family law areas.

 

I have nothing against muslims other then the ones that are terrorists, but why do we have to give up our traditions (like Christmas decorations) to be considered tolerant?

 

In Australia and some Scandinavian coutries there have been rapes of Western Women by gangs of moslem men. And not just a few. The moslems believe their religion takes precidence over any countries laws.

.

They imagine that if they find a woman who is not clothed from head to toe, then its OK to rape her. Its got to be OK of course because its in their Koran !

 

If it has happened yet in the UK then the authorities have managed to keep it quiet.

 

What they have not managed to hush up is the grooming of white school girls by moslems and possibly other "religiously minded" groups from the Indian sub continent. They are plied with gifts, money, alcohol, drugs and attention. Then led into prostitution.

 

Its difficult to find it in the mainstream news coverage as its frowned upon to be critical of minorities here in the UK. However the practice is well covered by the BNP web site- A UK right of centre party

 

We have had several murders though. Usually the victim is a daughter who refuses to marry some old fart in Pakistan, just so he can enter the UK. The father and her brothers are usually the killers.

[wez]

In Australia and some Scandinavian coutries there have been rapes of Western Women by gangs of moslem men. And not just a few. The moslems believe their religion takes precidence over any countries laws.

.

They imagine that if they find a woman who is not clothed from head to toe, then its OK to rape her. Its got to be OK of course because its in their Koran !

 

If it has happened yet in the UK then the authorities have managed to keep it quiet.

 

What they have not managed to hush up is the grooming of white school girls by moslems and possibly other "religiously minded" groups from the Indian sub continent. They are plied with gifts, money, alcohol, drugs and attention. Then led into prostitution.

 

Its difficult to find it in the mainstream news coverage as its frowned upon to be critical of minorities here in the UK. However the practice is well covered by the BNP web site- A UK right of centre party

 

We have had several murders though. Usually the victim is a daughter who refuses to marry some old fart in Pakistan, just so he can enter the UK. The father and her brothers are usually the killers.

 

 

 

There are also Catholic priests who molest little boys but to paint all catholics with the same brush would be wrong based on the actions of individuals. Should that be any different for individuals who call themselves muslim?

[hugo]

Whenever you see someone protesting public supported Christmas decorations it is almost always an atheist, not a Muslim

[eddo]

I think it is pretty safe to say (especially when reading what Timesjoke said in his first post:

I have nothing against muslims other then the ones that are terrorists...

 

that those of us replying to this are all adult enough to understand that no one is referring to every single follower of Islam on the planet, but instead are referring to those followers of Islam that specifically are perpetrating whatever issue that is being discussed.

 

To start playing the "Who is 'we'?" game and the constant pointing out of generalizations is pointless and is nothing more than a ploy to shift attention from the thread and topic and back onto one single member.

 

 

 

 

Moving forward:

Wez brought up Catholic priests and how some have been busted for molesting young boys. This is almost a comparable point, except for all the Catholics (and other Christians) that speak out against those priests actions. It is extremely rare to find a Muslim publicly speaking out against suicide bombers and the like (although I was very impressed with the outcry among UK Muslims recently regarding the Teddy Bear teacher.)

[wez]

I think it is pretty safe to say (especially when reading what Timesjoke said in his first post:

 

 

that those of us replying to this are all adult enough to understand that no one is referring to every single follower of Islam on the planet, but instead are referring to those followers of Islam that specifically are perpetrating whatever issue that is being discussed.

 

To start playing the "Who is 'we'?" game and the constant pointing out of generalizations is pointless and is nothing more than a ploy to shift attention from the thread and topic and back onto one single member.

 

 

Muslims destroyed Christmas?

 

"We" don't like being an individual, do "we"?

 

 

 

 

Moving forward:

Wez brought up Catholic priests and how some have been busted for molesting young boys. This is almost a comparable point, except for all the Catholics (and other Christians) that speak out against those priests actions. It is extremely rare to find a Muslim publicly speaking out against suicide bombers and the like (although I was very impressed with the outcry among UK Muslims recently regarding the Teddy Bear teacher.)

 

The catholic church sought to conceal this, and did for decades, protecting child molesters.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Whenever you see someone protesting public supported Christmas decorations it is almost always an atheist, not a Muslim

 

Well, I'm a n Atheist and I have never protested about Christmas. The real Xmas is 21 st Dec. Its a pagan thing and nothing to do with Christianity. It 's just a celebration that the worst of the winter is over, and from then on, the daylight hours get longer, as time moves us toward spring and the summer.

 

Christians dumped their festival on top of the pagan one to cause obscurity, hoping I suppose to promote their new religion and weaken the older one.

 

They did the same thing with Beltane- they dumped their Easter right on top of it. They also did it with Samhain, they dumped their "All Hallows" on top of that, which is now remembereed as Halloween.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

There are also Catholic priests who molest little boys ?

 

They should be gassed, Christian or otherwise..

[wez]

They should be gassed, Christian or otherwise..

 

 

But then "they" could cry oppression. Right TJ? Hahahahaha

[eddo]

The catholic church sought to conceal this, and did for decades, protecting child molesters.

 

The church may have tried to cover it up, but many, many Catholics made, and continue to make, public statements against it.

 

Lumping all Catholic followers into the "we" of the 'Catholic Church' is wrong, don't you know that? I guess I was wrong when I assumed that we were all adult enough to not do that here...

 

Like I said-- You would be hard pressed to find many Muslims that speak out against suicide bombers and/or the atrocities being perpetrated by Islamic Fundamentalists. I don't know if those that don't speak out are scared, don't speak out because of their faith, agree with it, or what exactly- but they (those that don't speak out) don't speak out. It can lead to assumptions that they (those that don't speak out against it) are ok with it, since they (those that don't speak out) don't speak out.

 

I hope that makes better sense now.

[wez]

The church may have tried to cover it up, but many, many Catholics made, and continue to make, public statements against it.

 

Lumping all Catholic followers into the "we" of the 'Catholic Church' is wrong, don't you know that? I guess I was wrong when I assumed that we were all adult enough to not do that here...

 

Isn't that the point I made Dr. Spin?

 

The individuals high in the catholic food chain in Vatican city who sought to conceal this for so long are as guilty as the molestors.. Maybe more so.

 

 

Like I said-- You would be hard pressed to find many Muslims that speak out against suicide bombers and/or the atrocities being perpetrated by Islamic Fundamentalists. I don't know if those that don't speak out are scared, don't speak out because of their faith, agree with it, or what exactly- but they (those that don't speak out) don't speak out. It can lead to assumptions that they (those that don't speak out against it) are ok with it, since they (those that don't speak out) don't speak out.

 

I hope that makes better sense now.

 

 

How the f ck would you know what individual muslims think of suicide bombers? People typically don't speak out when they fear for their very life, doesn't mean they support killing people, like TJ does.

 

 

Other individuals most likely lead to assumptions that every American supports invading foriegn countries, killing their people and telling them what to do, like you, TJ and the majority of other hypocrites do.

[wez]

The difference between suicide bombers and a soldier killing by remote control.

 

One is willing to stand out as an individual and sacrafice their life for their beliefs and foolishly thinks murdering people is the proper course of action.

 

One takes all possible measures to protect their individual life and remain an anonymous "we", hundreds of miles away and foolishly thinks killing people is the proper course of action.

 

 

You gonna speak out against remote control killers eddo?

 

 

Perhaps when someone who wants to harm "us" decides to do it to "us", you will. I'm not saying suicide bombers are good, "we're" bad. It's all bad and to condemn another for what you are, and then some, is called hypocrisy. I thought an adult who has spent his life going to church would understand that.

[eddo]

Isn't that the point I made Dr. Spin?

Yes, and then you rather hypocritically turned right around and did the very thing you are arguing against. I just thought I would point that out to you.

 

The individuals high in the catholic food chain in Vatican city who sought to conceal this for so long are as guilty as the molestors.. Maybe more so.

I agree. But that doesn't disprove my point.

 

How the f ck would you know what individual muslims think of suicide bombers?

 

I don't know, and don't claim to. But when Christian fundamentalists do things I don't agree with (see: Fred Phelps) I make damn sure that people know that I disapproves and in no way condone their actions. I also have at times shown how their actions go against the very Word and character of God that they speak about. It is rare that I see that kind of reaction in regards to Islamic fundamentalists (from other Muslims, anyway.)

 

 

You gonna speak out against remote control killers eddo?

I am gonna leave this one alone. I, as one that has not served my country in a military capacity, have no experience to speak from on the issue of "remote control" killers. I do, however, find it interesting that your terminology in regards to the soldiers that fight to protect your freedoms gets harsher the more you and TimesJoke disagree.

 

 

Perhaps when someone who wants to harm "us" decides to do it to "us", you will. I'm not saying suicide bombers are good, "we're" bad. It's all bad and to condemn another for what you are, and then some, is called hypocrisy.

Call me dense if you would like, but I didn't understand that at all. Maybe less use of quotes is in order.

[wez]

Yes, and then you rather hypocritically turned right around and did the very thing you are arguing against. I just thought I would point that out to you.

 

 

I don't lump all Catholics as child molestors. So what was it you pointed out?

 

 

I agree. But that doesn't disprove my point.

 

What is your point? You speak for TJ, TJ speaks for you?

 

 

 

 

I don't know, and don't claim to. But when Christian fundamentalists do things I don't agree with (see: Fred Phelps) I make damn sure that people know that I disapproves and in no way condone their actions. I also have at times shown how their actions go against the very Word and character of God that they speak about. It is rare that I see that kind of reaction in regards to Islamic fundamentalists (from other Muslims, anyway.)

 

 

I have watched you act the opposite of the very word and character of the God you speak about for almost 3 years now. What should you're, and you're muslim brothers in hypocrisy punishment be?

 

 

 

I am gonna leave this one alone. I, as one that has not served my country in a military capacity, have no experience to speak from on the issue of "remote control" killers. I do, however, find it interesting that your terminology in regards to the soldiers that fight to protect your freedoms gets harsher the more you and TimesJoke disagree.

 

 

What should we call soldiers who use technology and a button to murder people? The U.S. government and the UN makes it legal and acceptable? Please explain.

 

 

 

Call me dense if you would like, but I didn't understand that at all. Maybe less use of quotes is in order.

 

 

What is ok for you to do to another human being, is ok for every other human being to do to you.

 

What is ok for your country to do to another individual in another country, is ok for every other country to do to you.

 

Is it ok for other countries to work and strive to build a military as immpressive as ours and China's without us telling them no and proving it through murdering them?

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

 

How the f ck would you know what individual muslims think of suicide bombers?

 

Eddo did not say that he knew what individual moslems thought of suicide bombers. He said that moslems as a group were pretty quiet about these outrages . Nothing more.

 

Perhaps they are indifferent, or perhaps afraid to have an opinion publicly. But I dont think so for a minute.

 

I'll never forget watching moslems whooping with joy, and passing around sweets at the news of the outrage in NY city on 9/11. It was not just the odd few. It was the whole street full of them.

[eddo]

I don't lump all Catholics as child molestors. So what was it you pointed out?

 

No you didn't say that, but you did say this:

The catholic church sought to conceal this, and did for decades, protecting child molesters.

 

Thus implying that all Catholics tried to cover it up, right after saying that it is wrong to lump all Muslims together. You did exactly what you were telling others not to. Is it a big deal? No, because I knew what you meant. I wouldn't even have said anything about it, but you had made such a big deal out of TJ and Shiek doing it.

 

Point: Eddo.

 

 

 

What is your point? You speak for TJ, TJ speaks for you?

Nope, not at all. We do agree on some things though. I am pretty sure that his original point in this thread and mine are different.

 

He argues that Islam is not as tolerant towards their own followers as they would like the Western World to be towards it, and my point is that you rarely ever hear of non-fundamentalist Muslims speaking out against fundamentalist Muslims.

 

Point: Eddo. (that's 2-0 for those keeping score at home.)

 

I have watched you act the opposite of the very word and character of the God you speak about for almost 3 years now. What should you're, and you're muslim brothers in hypocrisy punishment be?

 

Since you don't believe in the word of God as being the Word of God, how can you say that I have ever acted the opposite of it? I will grant you that I am a sinner and a hypocrite (and have said so publicly before, so no point for you,) but that does not exclude me from being able to discuss other religions or what they represent (or don't represent.)

 

If it did, no one would ever be able to talk about anything, because we are all hypocrites at one time or another in our lives.

 

Point: Eddo. 3-0

 

What is ok for you to do to another human being, is ok for every other human being to do to you.

What is ok for your country to do to another individual in another country, is ok for every other country to do to you.

Is it ok for other countries to work and strive to build a military as immpressive as ours and China's without us telling them no and proving it through murdering them?

 

These are nice and happy thoughts, but rather impractical in the grand scheme of things. If I am late for work, I get yelled at by my boss. Does that mean that I can yell at him when he is late? Theoretically, yes- but I won't have a job for long if I do. Insubordination is grounds for job termination.

 

When I was 3 I used to get a lecture from dad if I my pants. Does that mean I can do the same when he is old and looses bowel control? Theoretically, yes, but that would be just a cruel thing to do to an old man who is already likely very embarrassed by the situation he is in due to his age.

 

Get what I am saying?

[snafu]

wez if they had the capability to kill by remote don?t you think they would? Suicide bombings are done because it?s the best way to kill as many innocent people at one time as possible. They are indiscriminate in their killing and will kill there own kind. We use remote bombings to reduce as much collateral damage as possible. The complete opposite of what they are trying to do. Also we don?t brainwash our troops or religious sect to go out and kill themselves.

[wez]

Eddo did not say that he knew what individual moslems thought of suicide bombers. He said that moslems as a group were pretty quiet about these outrages . Nothing more.

 

Perhaps they are indifferent, or perhaps afraid to have an opinion publicly. But I dont think so for a minute.

 

I'll never forget watching moslems whooping with joy, and passing around sweets at the news of the outrage in NY city on 9/11. It was not just the odd few. It was the whole street full of them.

 

 

No sh t, pretty sick when people cheer at murder. That's how the 20th hijacker got caught 20 miles from me in a county jail. Whooping it up..

 

 

I remember being a bit disgusted at my buddy cheering at the TV too on the opening day of the invasion all those years ago.. I told him, "f ckin A dude, it's not a football game, there's people dying under those explosions. " Hahahahahahaha

[snafu]

The bombings in London where orcastrated from a Mosque and the clergy where advocating violence but nobody spoke up. Where were the moderate Muslims in that mosque?

[wez]

wez if they had the capability to kill by remote don?t you think they would? Suicide bombings are done because it?s the best way to kill as many innocent people at one time as possible. They are indiscriminate in their killing and will kill there own kind. We use remote bombings to reduce as much collateral damage as possible. The complete opposite of what they are trying to do. Also we don?t brainwash our troops or religious sect to go out and kill themselves.

 

 

 

Course they would Snaf, although, they don't feel as though those people are innocent, otherwise, they wouldn't kill them.

 

And likewise, if you as an individual were in that situation, you may resort to suicide bombings as well. I don't think all these people are insane to not want to be under the control of another cultures military.

[timesjoke]

The problem with idiots like Wez is he must defend any and all elements that attack or degrade the government he hates. It is like the old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Wez sees the government and established order as his enemy, and even though terrorists and such do things he may find distastful, he likes the results of their attacks on society so he supports them and does everything he can to derail any real discussion against them.

 

 

I point out two recent topics, this one and the one about muslims rioting, both times Wez comes out using misdirection and trying desperately to make everything about his personal attacks so all discussion about the real topic gets lost in flame wars.

 

 

Wez is so transparent it is funny, he is everything he claims we are. He is intolerant of anything American, western, or governmental, no matter what it is, he will damn everything to do with these things.

 

 

Let's look at an example of Wez changing the subject, he started talking about Catholics molesting children, while I agree that these are scum that need to be executed, this has nothing to do with this discussion. Catholics are not trying to change local laws to allow sharia law, they are not killing innocent girls for not covering their faces, Catholics are not trying to end all established holidays. Catholics are not demanding special treatments paid for my our tax money like foot baths and special, all muslim classes in public schools to allow their daytime prayers.

 

 

 

 

Let's try to keep this on track, the topic is about how muslims refuse to fit into the societies they move to and instead want the established society to change to suit them. If you cannot talk about this topic, please take it elsewhere.

[wez]

No you didn't say that, but you did say this:

 

 

Thus implying that all Catholics tried to cover it up, right after saying that it is wrong to lump all Muslims together. You did exactly what you were telling others not to. Is it a big deal? No, because I knew what you meant. I wouldn't even have said anything about it, but you had made such a big deal out of TJ and Shiek doing it.

 

Point: Eddo.

 

 

Good one, Dr.

 

 

Nope, not at all. We do agree on some things though. I am pretty sure that his original point in this thread and mine are different.

 

 

Then why was your first post in here what wez was or wasn't doing to you/TJ?

 

He argues that Islam is not as tolerant towards their own followers as they would like the Western World to be towards it, and my point is that you rarely ever hear of non-fundamentalist Muslims speaking out against fundamentalist Muslims.

 

Point: Eddo. (that's 2-0 for those keeping score at home.)

 

 

I thought he was arguing that muslims destroyed Christmas.

 

 

If they did speak out, would you understand what they were saying? Might not be in the war plan to bombard us with translated muslims speaking out against killing people.

 

 

 

Since you don't believe in the word of God as being the Word of God, how can you say that I have ever acted the opposite of it? I will grant you that I am a sinner and a hypocrite (and have said so publicly before, so no point for you,) but that does not exclude me from being able to discuss other religions or what they represent (or don't represent.)

 

If it did, no one would ever be able to talk about anything, because we are all hypocrites at one time or another in our lives.

 

Point: Eddo. 3-0

 

 

I believe in the words of Jesus, and have watched you act the opposite of them. You believe Jesus was God. So in your eyes, I do believe in the word of God.

 

 

 

These are nice and happy thoughts, but rather impractical in the grand scheme of things. If I am late for work, I get yelled at by my boss. Does that mean that I can yell at him when he is late? Theoretically, yes- but I won't have a job for long if I do. Insubordination is grounds for job termination.

 

When I was 3 I used to get a lecture from dad if I my pants. Does that mean I can do the same when he is old and looses bowel control? Theoretically, yes, but that would be just a cruel thing to do to an old man who is already likely very embarrassed by the situation he is in due to his age.

 

Get what I am saying?

 

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

Get what Jesus is saying?