Muslims and western society

[wez]

To get this debate back on track, this is how I see it:

 

Prior to the seventh century, their were no moslems, and there were no moslem countries. Today there are probably 20+ moslem countries.

 

Now, no one ever said to moslems - here is a country no one wants, you can have it if you want. Every country they have, they have taken by force or coercion.

 

Mohammed and his buddies murdered Jews, Christians and probably other groups at a place called Medina. And so the conquest spread in this fashion.

 

From having no country, they now have many, and it is violence that has gotten them what they want.

 

They see clearly that violence pays. If they think they can win by force, they go straight to force. If they see they cannot, they agitate to win concessions while they wait for the position to improve.

 

There is no such thing as peaceful cohabitation with moslems. They hate Jews, Christians, Hindus, Seihks, Buddhists, Atheists and any other religious group not their own.

 

Then you must condemn those actions in us Europeans as well. My ansestors murdered native people and committed genocide to aquire this land I sit on now.

 

Great Britain has a long, sordid history of conquest.. South Africa work out then? India? Hong Kong.. and this was within the last 60 years alone...

 

Just because we trade scurvy filled blankets, beads, and booze to native Americans for anything of value before we kill them doesn't make us any better.

 

Matter of fact, we're pretty much a British colony that said f ck you, you aint no better than me..and we'll kill you to prove it. Hahahahahahaha

 

Friend killing friend, brother killing brother... Brit bloodbath... check it out.

[eddo]

Then you must condemn those actions in us Europeans as well. My ansestors murdered native people and committed genocide to aquire this land I sit on now.

blah blah blah.

 

ok wez, you make a good point. Just about everyone that is where they are in the world is because someone killed someone for that land.

 

So, what is your viable solution to ending wars? How are you going to implement it? (this is a serious question. You seem to have down pat blaming everyone, so what are your plans to make it better?)

[wez]

ok wez, you make a good point. Just about everyone that is where they are in the world is because someone killed someone for that land.

 

So, what is your viable solution to ending wars? How are you going to implement it? (this is a serious question. You seem to have down pat blaming everyone, so what are your plans to make it better?)

 

 

Stand up for my belief that you are what you hate, speak out against hypocrisy, and state violence is wrong, period.

 

And as wrong as violence is, condemning someone for being what you are and wanting to punish/slander/intimidate/kill them, is off the f cking chart of insanity.

 

Hypocrisy stinks and is unacceptable.

 

No more hypocrites = no more wars.

[eddo]

Stand up for my belief that you are what you hate, speak out against hypocrisy, and state violence is wrong, period.

 

And as wrong as violence is, condemning someone for being what you are and wanting to punish/slander/intimidate/kill them, is off the f cking chart of insanity.

 

Hypocrisy stinks and is unacceptable.

 

No more hypocrites = no more wars.

 

ok, so how will will you condemning the world and all of it's habitants help?

 

Go ahead and call a gang member a hypocrite and let me know how that works out for you. I think you would end up doing little more than pissing people off. You may be right in what you say, but people do not like to be condemned- especially by people who are just as at fault for what they are condemning others for. So, Unless you can show some remarkable ability to not be hypocritical, your plan appears to me to solve nothing.

 

 

Religious wars start because one side thinks the other side is wrong, and they start condemning the other side. Congrats, it looks to me like you are on your way to starting a war. or getting yourself shot when you piss off the wrong person.

 

Am I wrong?

[timesjoke]

Wez, you don't have the ability to have a discussion on any topic without moving to hatred and profanity, how do you propose to impliment this utopia you talk of? I am not trying to attack you, I am just making a point. If you cannot behave the way you want all leaders to behave, what makes you think it is a possibility?

 

 

You see, there is idealogy, and there is reality, I prefer to stay in the reality arena.

 

 

To answer your question concerning why one group and not another can have nukes (for the tenth time) because some can be trusted with the responsibility of having them while other people cannot. It is the same reason you can trust a highly trained soldier to operate a tank but an uneducated 5 year old would cause havock trying to operate one.

 

 

If nothing else, Muslims have proven themselves to be a tad unstable and sometimes purely homocidial maniacs depending on the day in question. In the beginning of this topc, before it was derailed by Wez, I posted a story of a father who strangled his daughter because she did not want to wear her face covering, it that truly the kind of people and mindset who should be walking around with nukes?

 

 

I wish nukes never appeared on the scene, I honestly do but allowing every wacko third world Country to own one would be a much worse situation. With most people, there is an understanding of mutual death where nuke use is concerned so that is why they don't use them but letting a radical Muslim Country get one and they may just like the whole martyr idea and let it rip.

 

 

All it takes is one radical, not an entire Country to make that decision.

 

 

 

 

Now, trying to again get back on topic, I must agree with sheik, Muslims have discovered they can acchieve with violence what they could not do any other way.

 

Look at how they use the media to win the PR battle even though they start every agressive action they are involved in. Look at the riots in Paris where they claim they must burn and destroy because they are oppressed, like their actions are not oppression itself.

 

I wonder if people will ever wake up?

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Then you must condemn those actions in us Europeans as well. My ansestors murdered native people and committed genocide to aquire this land I sit on now.

 

Great Britain has a long, sordid history of conquest.. South Africa work out then? India? Hong Kong.. and this was within the last 60 years alone...

 

Just because we trade scurvy filled blankets, beads, and booze to native Americans for anything of value before we kill them doesn't make us any better.

 

Matter of fact, we're pretty much a British colony that said f ck you, you aint no better than me..and we'll kill you to prove it. Hahahahahahaha

 

Friend killing friend, brother killing brother... Brit bloodbath... check it out.

 

I think just about every group has a nasty history, and I certainly would not defend some British history. However, let move on from the past, and consider the present only- that is where this debate is.

 

Neither the USA, UK or any other Western power,or any of our religions is calling for citizens to be killed for adultary, dress sense, apostacy or any other minor infringements. Neither are we calling for the deaths of non believers.

 

Islam is a force for evil, quite unlike any other religion in the modern world that I am aware of.

[wez]

ok, so how will will you condemning the world and all of it's habitants help?

 

 

I condemn no one. Not my job. My job is to tell the truth.

 

 

Go ahead and call a gang member a hypocrite and let me know how that works out for you. I think you would end up doing little more than pissing people off. You may be right in what you say, but people do not like to be condemned- especially by people who are just as at fault for what they are condemning others for. So, Unless you can show some remarkable ability to not be hypocritical, your plan appears to me to solve nothing.

 

 

I don't condemn people, any people. The remarkable ability is forgiveness.

 

 

Religious wars start because one side thinks the other side is wrong, and they start condemning the other side. Congrats, it looks to me like you are on your way to starting a war. or getting yourself shot when you piss off the wrong person.

 

Am I wrong?

 

 

You are wrong about me starting a war... I condemn no one and my religion is the truth and the truth knows no boundries and envelopes every human that will ever have existed. That is the only true "religion". Real "religion" has no sides to blame for anything, it is one. If you belong to such a "religion" that has "sides", my advice would be to run fast and far and never look back, it is false.

 

As far as me getting shot for pissing off the "wrong" person, not my problem. Won't stop me from telling the truth. I don't let fear rule my life.

[wez]

Wez, you don't have the ability to have a discussion on any topic without moving to hatred and profanity, how do you propose to impliment this utopia you talk of? I am not trying to attack you, I am just making a point. If you cannot behave the way you want all leaders to behave, what makes you think it is a possibility?

 

 

Hatred? Hahahahahaha... What should I do? Coddle you? Tell you it's ok to use violence? Validate your hatred for you? Nope... I'll do what I do, thank you. I'll be long dead when and if people ever learn their lesson. Real leaders tell the truth, period.

 

 

You see, there is idealogy, and there is reality, I prefer to stay in the reality arena.

 

I prefer free will to someone elses reality..

 

 

To answer your question concerning why one group and not another can have nukes (for the tenth time) because some can be trusted with the responsibility of having them while other people cannot. It is the same reason you can trust a highly trained soldier to operate a tank but an uneducated 5 year old would cause havock trying to operate one.

 

Since we've used them (atomic bombs) on other human beings, and are the only ones in the history of the world to do so, obviously we can't be trusted with nuclear weapons by the rest of the world, can we? Seems to me, everyone but us can be trusted with them.. And who the hell decides who can be trusted with them? Those who possess and have used them? Hypocrisy...

 

If nothing else, Muslims have proven themselves to be a tad unstable and sometimes purely homocidial maniacs depending on the day in question. In the beginning of this topc, before it was derailed by Wez, I posted a story of a father who strangled his daughter because she did not want to wear her face covering, it that truly the kind of people and mindset who should be walking around with nukes?

 

 

Americans ever kill their kids, wives, husbands, ex wives, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers because they "wouldn't do what I told them to do and they pissed me off because I hate myself"?

 

 

Certainly not the kind of folks I want to have a nuke.. Matter of fact, no one has a right to have a nuke.

 

 

 

I wish nukes never appeared on the scene, I honestly do but allowing every wacko third world Country to own one would be a much worse situation. With most people, there is an understanding of mutual death where nuke use is concerned so that is why they don't use them but letting a radical Muslim Country get one and they may just like the whole martyr idea and let it rip.

 

So might an American.... a Christian "religious" nut trying to make the prophesies come true perhaps.. I too wish they never appeared on the scene. They will one day destroy everything.

 

 

All it takes is one radical, not an entire Country to make that decision.

 

 

Our 'leadership" is for sale to the highest bidder... hardly a safe plan for nukes..

 

 

No human/s on the face of this Earth has the right to wield the power to destroy it, even if it is, and it is, possible. They all need to go, now, before it's too late. What do you think the US would do if faced with a collapsed economy, civil wars, and a foreign invasion by the likes of China at some point in the near future? If we could be trusted with nukes, we wouldn't need them in the first place.

 

 

 

 

Now, trying to again get back on topic, I must agree with sheik, Muslims have discovered they can acchieve with violence what they could not do any other way.

 

Look at how they use the media to win the PR battle even though they start every agressive action they are involved in. Look at the riots in Paris where they claim they must burn and destroy because they are oppressed, like their actions are not oppression itself.

 

I wonder if people will ever wake up?

 

 

I wonder too....

[wez]

I wonder TJ... Do we not want others to have nukes because then we couldn't control them through fear and would no longer be the self proclaimed "most powerful nation on Earth"?

 

 

What a way to live... worse than any prison you can touch everyday.. prisoner of someone elses reality that might = right and fear = respect. Enjoy it.. I'll not hide it from my eyes or validate it for anyone.

 

 

Those who control through fear, are the most fearful of all. It's a fact.

 

 

One on one relationship, country to country, same sh t... a joke of a reality.

[hugo]

SPIEGEL:

Hirsi Ali, you have called the Prophet Muhammad a tyrant and a pervert. Theo van Gogh, the director of your film "Submission," which is critical of Islam, was murdered by Islamists. You yourself are under police protection. Can you understand how the Danish cartoonists feel at this point?

 

 

DPA

Hirsi Ali: "The cartoons should be displayed everywhere."

Hirsi Ali: They probably feel numb. On the one hand, a voice in their heads is encouraging them not to sell out their freedom of speech. At the same time, they're experiencing the shocking sensation of what it's like to lose your own personal freedom. One mustn't forget that they're part of the postwar generation, and that all they've experienced is peace and prosperity. And now they suddenly have to fight for their own human rights once again.

 

SPIEGEL: Why have the protests escalated to such an extent?

 

Hirsi Ali: There is no freedom of speech in those Arab countries where the demonstrations and public outrage are being staged. The reason many people flee to Europe from these places is precisely because they have criticized religion, the political establishment and society. Totalitarian Islamic regimes are in a deep crisis. Globalization means that they're exposed to considerable change, and they also fear the reformist forces developing among ?migr?s in the West. They'll use threatening gestures against the West, and the success they achieve with their threats, to intimidate these people.

 

 

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

 

is one of the most sharp- tongued critics of political Islam -- and a target of radical fanatics. Her provocative film "Submission" led to the assassination of director Theo van Gogh in November 2004. The attackers left a death threat against Hirsi Ali stuck to his corpse with a knife. After a brief period in hiding, the 36- year- old member of Dutch parliament from the neo- liberal VVD party has returned to parliament and is continuing her fight against Islamism. She recently published a book, "I Accuse," and is working on a sequel to "Submission."

 

Hirsi Ali was born in Somalia where she experienced the oppression of Muslim women first hand. When her father attempted to force her into an arranged marriage, she fled to Holland in 1992. Later, she renounced the Muslim religion. more... SPIEGEL: Was apologizing for the cartoons the wrong thing to do?

 

Hirsi Ali: Once again, the West pursued the principle of turning first one cheek, then the other. In fact, it's already a tradition. In 1980, privately owned British broadcaster ITV aired a documentary about the stoning of a Saudi Arabian princess who had allegedly committed adultery. The government in Riyadh intervened and the British government issued an apology. We saw the same kowtowing response in 1987 when (Dutch comedian) Rudi Carrell derided (Iranian revolutionary leader) Ayatollah Khomeini in a comedy skit (that was aired on German television). In 2000, a play about the youngest wife of the Prophet Mohammed, titled "Aisha," was cancelled before it ever opened in Rotterdam. Then there was the van Gogh murder and now the cartoons. We are constantly apologizing, and we don't notice how much abuse we're taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn't give an inch.

 

SPIEGEL: What should the appropriate European response look like?

 

Hirsi Ali: There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere. After all, the Arabs can't boycott goods from every country. They're far too dependent on imports. And Scandinavian companies should be compensated for their losses. Freedom of speech should at least be worth that much to us.

 

SPIEGEL: But Muslims, like any religious community, should also be able to protect themselves against slander and insult.

 

Hirsi Ali: That's exactly the reflex I was just talking about: offering the other cheek. Not a day passes, in Europe and elsewhere, when radical imams aren't preaching hatred in their mosques. They call Jews and Christians inferior, and we say they're just exercising their freedom of speech. When will the Europeans realize that the Islamists don't allow their critics the same right? After the West prostrates itself, they'll be more than happy to say that Allah has made the infidels spineless.

 

SPIEGEL: What will be the upshot of the storm of protests against the cartoons?

 

Hirsi Ali: We could see the same thing happening that has happened in the Netherlands, where writers, journalists and artists have felt intimidated ever since the van Gogh murder. Everyone is afraid to criticize Islam. Significantly, "Submission" still isn't being shown in theaters.

 

SPIEGEL: Many have criticized the film as being too radical and too offensive.

 

 

AP

Police at the scene of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh's murder.

Hirsi Ali: The criticism of van Gogh was legitimate. But when someone has to die for his world view, what he may have done wrong is no longer the issue. That's when we have to stand up for our basic rights. Otherwise we are just reinforcing the killer and conceding that there was a good reason to kill this person.

 

SPIEGEL: You too have been accused for your dogged criticism of Islam.

 

Hirsi Ali: Oddly enough, my critics never specify how far I can go. How can you address problems if you're not even allowed to clearly define them? Like the fact that Muslim women at home are kept locked up, are raped and are married off against their will -- and that in a country in which our far too passive intellectuals are so proud of their freedom!

 

SPIEGEL: The debate over speaking Dutch on the streets and the integration programs for potentially violent Moroccan youth -- do these things also represent the fruits of your provocations?

 

Hirsi Ali: The sharp criticism has finally triggered an open debate over our relationship with Muslim immigrants. We have become more conscious of things. For example, we are now classifying honor killings by the victims' countries of origin. And we're finally turning our attention to young girls who are sent against their wills from Morocco to Holland as brides, and adopting legislation to make this practice more difficult.

 

SPIEGEL: You're working on a sequel to "Submission." Will you stick to your uncompromising approach?

 

 

SPIEGEL FORUMS

Discuss this story in SPIEGEL FORUMS.

 

The Cartoon Jihad: Did European newspapers make the right decision by reprinting controversial Danish caricatures that disparagingly depicted the Prophet Muhammad? Hirsi Ali: Yes, of course. We want to continue the debate over the Koran's claim to absoluteness, the infallibility of the Prophet and sexual morality. In the first part, we portrayed a woman who speaks to her god, complaining that despite the fact that she has abided by his rules and subjugated herself, she is still being abused by her uncle. The second part deals with the dilemma into which the Muslim faith plunges four different men. One hates Jews, the second one is gay, the third is a bon vivant who wants to be a good Muslim but repeatedly succumbs to life's temptations, and the fourth is a martyr. They all feel abandoned by their god and decide to stop worshipping him.

 

SPIEGEL: Will recent events make it more difficult to screen the film?

 

Hirsi Ali: The conditions couldn't be more difficult. We're forced to produce the film under complete anonymity. Everyone involved in the film, from actors to technicians, will be unrecognizable. But we are determined to complete the project. The director didn't really like van Gogh, but he believes that, for the sake of free speech, shooting the sequel is critical. I'm optimistic that we'll be able to premier the film this year.

 

SPIEGEL: Is the Koran's claim to absoluteness, which you criticize in "Submission," the central obstacle to reforming Islam?

 

Hirsi Ali: The doctrine stating that the faith is inalterable because the Koran was dictated by God must be replaced. Muslims must realize that it was human beings who wrote the holy scriptures. After all, most Christians don't believe in hell, in the angels or in the earth having been created in six days. They now see these things as symbolic stories, but they still remain true to their faith.

 

INTERVIEW: GERALD TRAUFETTER

[hugo]

Freedom and Islam

By T. O. Shanavas, M. D., Vice President, Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.

 

Recently, I read an article, ?Women in Islam? describing the liberation of women by Islam and Prophet (s). In reality women cannot travel alone to Hujj or visit Mecca (the safest place for any one), and women cannot drive a car in Saudi Arabia. It is not a secret that Muslims in general and Muslim women in particular in the world are the least free and least educated. So, I wonder: Oh Islam! You are a great theory but no practical value, unless you live in the West.

 

After all, only one thing matters in Islam. Faith is a matter of exclusively personal and private experience. We embrace faith individually just as we confront our death individually. An Iranian Muslim philosopher, Souroush, correctly said it that we have communal actions and but not communal faiths. We can express faith in public but the core of the faith is mysteriously private. The preeminence of Islamic faith is for the hereafter where people are judged individually: "Everyone of them will come before Him all alone on the Day of Resurrection. Surely A-Rahman will show love for those who believe and do right." [19:95-96]. There is no Original Sin that transcends over the goodness of whole mankind in Islam. Therefore, the only things that matter on the Day of Judgment are actions at the individual level. Community actions are useless.

 

Similarly, the Qur?an states: ?Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of you all. Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" (Koran 18: 29) ?And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; thy task is only to exhort: thou cannot compel them to believe.? (Koran: 21-22). ?O Prophet.!?Thy duty is not more than to deliver the message; and the reckoning is Ours.? (Koran 13:40). These verses teach that a roof made out safety and liberty is an absolute necessity to develop faith in the hearts. These verses demand Muslims to guarantee freedom and safety for all. Therefore, if governments, Imams, enforced Fatwas, demand any public or outward obedience and submission, such outward appearance is not faith. When law, power, force, and tyranny enforce religion, they are taking control of the body not the soul. Unfortunately, many Muslims want to make reign over body the most important tenet of Islam even though the Qur?an rejects their craving for power over body: ?It is not your meat or blood that reach God: It is fealty of your heart that reaches Him? (22:37).

 

In Muslim-majority nations, people are forced to confess Islamic faith and behave in one voice in religion; but they forget that the rulers cannot fill the heart with genuine faith. I believe that faith chosen freely at the individual level without coercion and without forced conformity is the genuine faith. In a world where the hearts with freely chosen faith, not by forced compliance, pervade, the true religious spirit come alive to establish an ideal society by free choice of the people. This is proven by Muslim history in the first 6 centuries. Muslims helped Jews to create their Golden Age and liberate Christians from tyranny of Roman church. Muslims philosophy and science promoted the Enlightenment and Renaissance of the Europe. We also created the experimental science. In those days, we educated anyone who came our way without force-feeding our faith. Now we have governments that have taken control of our body claiming to send our ?meat and blood? to God while Muslims have to beg from non-Muslim societies for their daily bread to keep their body alive.

 

Prophet Mohammed struggled to establish a free society. Similarly, Muslims must struggle hard peacefully to establish a free society where no totalitarian government, no Imams, no predominant group control us or decide for us. Everyone is equal. If any one wants to be a believer, let him/her be. If anyone wants to be an apostate let him/her be safe to live the life of an apostate. So-called Islamic government is myth created by power-hungry people to control Muslim mind and body. There was no such thing as Islamic government. Government is only a means to execute the will of people. The individual members of the government can have Islamic values and faith. Prophet Mohammed ruled as a democratically elected ruler following the invitation by the people of Medina. He never forced a decision upon his community even when he believed that majority decision on a particular secular matter was a mistake as happened in the case of the disaster of Uhud war. A minority including him wanted to fortify the Medina and fight the Meccan forces. But he agreed to go along with the wishes of the majority to fight the Koreish in the open instead of from fortified Medina even though the strategy of the majority was wrong in his opinion. So, Islam demands Democracy, not tyranny by ullamahs, kings, self-appointed presidents, and military generals.

 

The concept of so-called Islamic government is an oxymoron unless it means a government with Islamic values that the community has accepted, not by the opinion or fatawa of an Imam but by totally free discussion in a free press, without coercion and intimidation. Some of the so-called Islamic values that exist in contemporary Muslim society are the values of some Imams that had never grinded through and experienced a free press. The self-righteous terrorists, and oppressive governments among Muslims want to control the ?meat and blood? with the aid of the values of Imams that were not debated in the free society with a free press. However, they neglect the soul that sustains the body. Let democracy rule our bodies with a free press and let the free choice build our faith. Let us get rid of from our thoughts the enforced forms of outward Islam that demand the conformity and control from our ?meat and blood?

 

The verse 33:5 states: ?There is no sin upon you for what mistakes you commit unintentionally, but there is sin what your hearts have intended.? Unintentional mistakes happen much less if mind is exposed to free press, public opinion, and dialogue with reason as guiding principle. A hadith states "God has not created any thing better than reason." So, any Muslims who oppose a free press and reasoning are committing a sin knowingly because he/she refuses to listen to the merit or demerit of opposing points of view. The Koreish of Mecca rejected Prophet Mohammed because they refused to listen to reasoning. Muslims must reject the Jahilliyah paradigm that pervades in our community and in our mind.

 

Let Imams and scholars issue fatwas freely without power to enforce over the community. Reject any conformity by force. Reject totalitarianism and kingdoms that want to rule our body. Let the heart and mind fly free to see what is out there. Democracy draws inspiration from the Qur?anic axiom that human being are free. The American constitution reflects it as it states: ?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press.?

 

This is candidly stated in verse: ?We sent down the Torah which contains guidance and light?Later, in the train of prophets We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah which has been send down before him, and gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light. ?Unto to you [O Muhammad] this writ (Koran) and a way and a pattern of life, confirming what were revealed before?Unto everyone of you have We appointed a different law and way of life. And if God had so willed He could surely have you all made one single community professing one faith. But He wished to try you and test you. So try to excel in good deeds? (Koran: 5:44-48).

 

The existence of different kinds of faith and religion competing each other doing good work is the will of God. So, freedom without the enforcement of conformity in religious matters is Islamic. The so-called Islamic governments of the self-righteous violate Qur?anic principles and tyrannize people of all faith including Muslims. Islam will always remain a dream and an excellent theory with no practical value until faith rules the hearts and liberal democracy with a free press rules the bodies. Finally, I thank God for creating America where I do not fear about government taking control of my body and at same time my heart can fly freely to choose my faith.

[wez]

Excellent articles teach...

 

 

Government and popular religion stink.

[wez]

Originally posted at The Jungle

 

12/12/2007 3:05:48 PM From: Darkanda Keep your religion to your fracking self

 

 

12/12/2007 4:12:15 PM From: RaE You have no cooth Darkie.

 

 

12/12/2007 6:53:20 PM From: eddo So someone speaking words to you gives you the "right" to move that to physical violence? That is why I am better than you, not because of what I do or don't believe about Jesus.

 

 

Hahahahahahahaha

 

You ain't better than darkie eddo. Shut the hell up.

 

 

Kinda sound like me cept for the better than you part. Why didn't you tell TJ that I was better than him over here? Hahahahahaha

 

 

Eddo is a dumbass

 

 

Should I be banned for dragging jungle biz all over the www? Hahahahahaha

 

 

I agree with BCAR

[eddo]

You ain't better than darkie eddo. Shut the hell up.

 

 

You never were one much for understanding humor.

 

 

and I cannot for the life of me understand how that is relevant in this discussion, other than you trying to take a pot shot at me. So much for moving forward, huh?

[ImWithStupid]

Hahahahahahahaha

 

You ain't better than darkie eddo. Shut the hell up.

 

 

Kinda sound like me cept for the better than you part. Why didn't you tell TJ that I was better than him over here? Hahahahahaha

 

 

Eddo is a dumbass

 

 

Should I be banned for dragging jungle biz all over the www? Hahahahahaha

 

 

I agree with BCAR

 

Please stay on topic or take it to the, "Free For All", Forum.

[snafu]

Neither the USA, UK or any other Western power,or any of our religions is calling for citizens to be killed for adultary, dress sense, apostacy or any other minor infringements. Neither are we calling for the deaths of non believers.

 

Islam is a force for evil, quite unlike any other religion in the modern world that I am aware of.

 

They wanted to kill that teacher for naming a teddy bear Mohammad for Christ sakes. That speaks volumes.

[Old Salt]

Freedom and Islam

By T. O. Shanavas, M. D., Vice President, Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.

 

Recently, I read an article, ?Women in Islam? describing the liberation of women by Islam and Prophet (s). In reality women cannot travel alone to Hujj or visit Mecca (the safest place for any one), and women cannot drive a car in Saudi Arabia. It is not a secret that Muslims in general and Muslim women in particular in the world are the least free and least educated. So, I wonder: Oh Islam! You are a great theory but no practical value, unless you live in the West.

 

After all, only one thing matters in Islam. Faith is a matter of exclusively personal and private experience. We embrace faith individually just as we confront our death individually. An Iranian Muslim philosopher, Souroush, correctly said it that we have communal actions and but not communal faiths. We can express faith in public but the core of the faith is mysteriously private. The preeminence of Islamic faith is for the hereafter where people are judged individually: "Everyone of them will come before Him all alone on the Day of Resurrection. Surely A-Rahman will show love for those who believe and do right." [19:95-96]. There is no Original Sin that transcends over the goodness of whole mankind in Islam. Therefore, the only things that matter on the Day of Judgment are actions at the individual level. Community actions are useless.

 

Similarly, the Qur?an states: ?Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of you all. Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" (Koran 18: 29) ?And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; thy task is only to exhort: thou cannot compel them to believe.? (Koran: 21-22). ?O Prophet.!?Thy duty is not more than to deliver the message; and the reckoning is Ours.? (Koran 13:40). These verses teach that a roof made out safety and liberty is an absolute necessity to develop faith in the hearts. These verses demand Muslims to guarantee freedom and safety for all. Therefore, if governments, Imams, enforced Fatwas, demand any public or outward obedience and submission, such outward appearance is not faith. When law, power, force, and tyranny enforce religion, they are taking control of the body not the soul. Unfortunately, many Muslims want to make reign over body the most important tenet of Islam even though the Qur?an rejects their craving for power over body: ?It is not your meat or blood that reach God: It is fealty of your heart that reaches Him? (22:37).

 

In Muslim-majority nations, people are forced to confess Islamic faith and behave in one voice in religion; but they forget that the rulers cannot fill the heart with genuine faith. I believe that faith chosen freely at the individual level without coercion and without forced conformity is the genuine faith. In a world where the hearts with freely chosen faith, not by forced compliance, pervade, the true religious spirit come alive to establish an ideal society by free choice of the people. This is proven by Muslim history in the first 6 centuries. Muslims helped Jews to create their Golden Age and liberate Christians from tyranny of Roman church. Muslims philosophy and science promoted the Enlightenment and Renaissance of the Europe. We also created the experimental science. In those days, we educated anyone who came our way without force-feeding our faith. Now we have governments that have taken control of our body claiming to send our ?meat and blood? to God while Muslims have to beg from non-Muslim societies for their daily bread to keep their body alive.

 

Prophet Mohammed struggled to establish a free society. Similarly, Muslims must struggle hard peacefully to establish a free society where no totalitarian government, no Imams, no predominant group control us or decide for us. Everyone is equal. If any one wants to be a believer, let him/her be. If anyone wants to be an apostate let him/her be safe to live the life of an apostate. So-called Islamic government is myth created by power-hungry people to control Muslim mind and body. There was no such thing as Islamic government. Government is only a means to execute the will of people. The individual members of the government can have Islamic values and faith. Prophet Mohammed ruled as a democratically elected ruler following the invitation by the people of Medina. He never forced a decision upon his community even when he believed that majority decision on a particular secular matter was a mistake as happened in the case of the disaster of Uhud war. A minority including him wanted to fortify the Medina and fight the Meccan forces. But he agreed to go along with the wishes of the majority to fight the Koreish in the open instead of from fortified Medina even though the strategy of the majority was wrong in his opinion. So, Islam demands Democracy, not tyranny by ullamahs, kings, self-appointed presidents, and military generals.

 

The concept of so-called Islamic government is an oxymoron unless it means a government with Islamic values that the community has accepted, not by the opinion or fatawa of an Imam but by totally free discussion in a free press, without coercion and intimidation. Some of the so-called Islamic values that exist in contemporary Muslim society are the values of some Imams that had never grinded through and experienced a free press. The self-righteous terrorists, and oppressive governments among Muslims want to control the ?meat and blood? with the aid of the values of Imams that were not debated in the free society with a free press. However, they neglect the soul that sustains the body. Let democracy rule our bodies with a free press and let the free choice build our faith. Let us get rid of from our thoughts the enforced forms of outward Islam that demand the conformity and control from our ?meat and blood?

 

The verse 33:5 states: ?There is no sin upon you for what mistakes you commit unintentionally, but there is sin what your hearts have intended.? Unintentional mistakes happen much less if mind is exposed to free press, public opinion, and dialogue with reason as guiding principle. A hadith states "God has not created any thing better than reason." So, any Muslims who oppose a free press and reasoning are committing a sin knowingly because he/she refuses to listen to the merit or demerit of opposing points of view. The Koreish of Mecca rejected Prophet Mohammed because they refused to listen to reasoning. Muslims must reject the Jahilliyah paradigm that pervades in our community and in our mind.

 

Let Imams and scholars issue fatwas freely without power to enforce over the community. Reject any conformity by force. Reject totalitarianism and kingdoms that want to rule our body. Let the heart and mind fly free to see what is out there. Democracy draws inspiration from the Qur?anic axiom that human being are free. The American constitution reflects it as it states: ?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press.?

 

This is candidly stated in verse: ?We sent down the Torah which contains guidance and light?Later, in the train of prophets We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah which has been send down before him, and gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light. ?Unto to you [O Muhammad] this writ (Koran) and a way and a pattern of life, confirming what were revealed before?Unto everyone of you have We appointed a different law and way of life. And if God had so willed He could surely have you all made one single community professing one faith. But He wished to try you and test you. So try to excel in good deeds? (Koran: 5:44-48).

 

The existence of different kinds of faith and religion competing each other doing good work is the will of God. So, freedom without the enforcement of conformity in religious matters is Islamic. The so-called Islamic governments of the self-righteous violate Qur?anic principles and tyrannize people of all faith including Muslims. Islam will always remain a dream and an excellent theory with no practical value until faith rules the hearts and liberal democracy with a free press rules the bodies. Finally, I thank God for creating America where I do not fear about government taking control of my body and at same time my heart can fly freely to choose my faith.

Very informative article when you read past the first paragraph or two.

[Old Salt]

They wanted to kill that teacher for naming a teddy bear Mohammad for Christ sakes. That speaks volumes.

Those were a few ignorant savages. But if you saw the news clips, very few of them were actually acting like they really wanted to be there - media event (IMO).

[snafu]

Very informative article when you read past the first paragraph or two.

 

If your trying to get me to read the whole thing it wont work.

[wez]

If your trying to get me to read the whole thing it wont work.

 

It's an awsome article snaf.. worth your time for sure.

[snafu]

It's an awsome article snaf.. worth your time for sure.

 

In contrast to this:

 

 

Quotes from the Qur'an and Hadith

 

on war, violence, infidels, and unbelievers

 

The terrorist element in Islam may not be shared by most Muslims but it cannot be denied it is a part of Islam and prevalent in countries that have an Islamic government. The radical fundamentalists cannot be ignored or denied as part of this religion, which influence becomes just as much social and political as it is religious. Certainly it is true that not all Muslims are terrorists, however the majority of Terrorists are Muslim.

 

To compare Christianity or any other religion is like apples and oranges. As Christians we do not practice the Old Testament but the teachings of the New Testament, by Christ and the apostles. so any arguments to try and castigate Christians for doing the same fail miserably.

 

Recently the Spokesman for the Taliban said, ?Those youths who did what they did destroyed America with their airplanes they?ve done a good deed.? He went on to say ?THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF YOUTH WHO LOOK FORWARD TO DEATH LIKE THE AMERICANS LOOK FORWARD TO LIVING.?

 

In the book of Proverbs the God that they say they obey says, ?all those who love death hate me.? Just a interesting observation, how do the leaders get his followers to do what he will not.

 

Surah 2:256 ?Let there be no compulsion in Religion.? This would be a rational position if practiced as a standard, however Muslims disallow the Bible (as well as other books of religion) in their countries and do not give people a choice. They do not want to engage in dialogue or allow freedom of choice when they are in control. To present the Bibles Gospel is tantamount to aggression, so one is labeled an infidel, and the use of force can be used to restrain him. The rest of this verse says ?Truth stands out Clear from Error: whoever Rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped, the most trustworthy Hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth And knoweth all things.? This verse seems to imply that those who embrace Islam willingly are accepted.

 

Why is it so hard for Muslim to become a Christian or join with another religion? Mohammed said, ?Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.? (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57) This command is practiced in almost all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

 

While the Qur?an says not to begin with hostilities, and Allah does not love the aggressor, it is not acceptable when Islam is refused. For it teaches not to turn away and bless but ?the one who attacks you, you attack him in like manner...whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong, there is no way (blame) against them.?

 

Sura 26:227 ?Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of God, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!?

 

They present certain verses and ignore others verses that have quite a different tone such as 3:85 ?Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers? ?Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day?. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).

 

Muslim?s make every effort to suppress any who claim to follow the Bible. They say they believe the Bible but will not allow the Bible to be taught to Muslims. They cannot allow anyone who believes the Bible the right to declare their belief as they do. Their persecution of Bible believers shows their lack of trust in their own religion to show any truth. If they trust the power of the Qur'an, why would they rely on physical force and intimidation. However they will say, ?Therefore grant a delay to the Unbelievers: Give respite to them gently (for awhile).? Sura 86:17

 

?And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.? [soorah an-Nisaa'4:75]

 

What I have seen on the news is that we cannot understand the Quran, it's in Arabic and we (those who do not believe) are considered illiterate, we are feeble in spiritual understanding. So words that we read in English do not mean the same in Arabic. Lets examine this argument: The translation is by Muslim scholars who speak Arabic and know the meaning, yet for some reason they don?t translate it accurately in the English! One only needs to read the Hadiths to know what is meant by the verses.

 

Another translation of the preceding verse is ?Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.?

 

Mohammed said, ?I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah? (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).

 

They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calendar). Say, ?fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.? (Soorah an-Nisaa 4:75)

 

The Jews are to be eliminated

 

 

 

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Continue...

Sura 5:51: ?O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.? This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.

 

There is a consistency in the statements in Qur'an about the Jews, Christians, unbelievers, infidels, polytheists, only a few statements are favorable. But the direct approach of whom Mohammed meant is clear from his theme of elimination and destiny for punishment.

 

Sura3 3:64: ?Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers (whom he defined as Christians in the 5th surah ?Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.) and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ?Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!? ?Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!??

 

What does The true God say about cursing his people? Read Gen.12:3

 

Sura72:15 ?The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.?

 

?What, do you desire to guide him whom God has led astray? Whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way [of salvation]. They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as a friend or helper. (Arberry, Interpreted p.113)

 

Hadith, the body of traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu Hurayah) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews. (Sahih of Muslim, quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al Quran by Ali Akbar, Bismi Publishers 1992, p.44)

 

Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 ?seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.?

 

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Sura 9:5)

 

4:101 ?When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.? 4:102 ?For the Unbelievers, Allah has prepared a humiliating punishment.?

 

8:19 ?(O Unbelievers!) if ye prayed for victory and judgment, now hath the judgment come to you: if ye desist (from wrong), it will be best for you: if ye return (to the attack), so shall We. Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they (were multiplied: for verily God is with those who believe!?

 

8:59-60 ?Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.?

Another translation makes this plain - ?The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.?

 

9.123 ?O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you?

 

9.73 ?O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.?

 

Surah 2, Contains the subject of war numerous times (Jihad). It is approved to be the solution to aggression when necessary. The following paragraphs are out of the Qur?an. (The Qur?an was written in Arabic, but translated in English by those who are Muslim and speak Arabic.)

 

?War is prescribed to you: but from this ye are averse.? (Sura 2:212).

 

?To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause? (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)

 

Sura 2:187-189 ?And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked.?

 

2:190-292 ?Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.?

 

2:193 ?And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and let there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.?

 

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[snafu]

2:216 ?Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: ?Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.?

 

2:244 ?Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.?

 

Many of these quotes should be self-evident what the meaning is. Of course they will be some that say that what they mean is not what they read like. Muslim clerics and their apologists are saying ?the command to kill non-Muslims is not for today? it was only for a certain time. Where in the Qur?an does it say this? It does not say or teach the commands to kill the ?infidels?, ?unbelievers? ?Jews? and ?Christians? was only for a previous time. ? Nowhere. why should we accept this rhetoric? There is proof in the Qur'an that it is actually to continue and increase.

 

No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ?During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will leave the faith) and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.? (Bukhari volume 9, no.64)

 

One of their Hadiths states about their own: Narrated Ikrima: The statement of Allah?s Apostle (Muhammad), ?Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.? (Hadith 9:45; 84.2.57.)

 

Sura 9:29-33 ?Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled.?

 

Sura 8:15 ?O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers preparing for battle do not turn your backs to them. [Anyone who does] shall incur the wrath of God, and Hell shall be his home,- an evil dwelling (indeed)!?

 

Sura 8:57 ?So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson.?

 

Sura 8:65 ?O Messenger! Rouse the Believers among you to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish two thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are people without understanding.? In other words those who believe not in Allah are not equal to those who do.?

 

Sura 8:67 ?It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has made a great slaughter in the land.?

 

Sura 6:157 ?Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth God's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.? So if you are not a Muslim, how do you think this affects you.

 

Sura 8:12 ?Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ?I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.?

 

?Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you and you shall not be treated unjustly.?

 

?Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day? (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).

 

Sura 9:39 ?If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put others in your place?

 

9:52 ??Allah will send His punishment from Himself or by our hands.?

 

The Qur?an teaches: Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home . . . The unbelievers are your sworn enemies . . . Seek out your enemies relentlessly . . . . You shall not plead for traitors . . . Allah does not love the treacherous or the sinful. (Dawood, Koran, pp. 367-68.)

 

?. . . kill the pagans wherever you may find them . . .?

 

Sura 4:74: ?Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great value.?

 

Sura 4:95 ?Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.?

Sura 9:14 ?Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.? Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Surah 9:14 at-Taubah 9:14)

 

Sura 9:78-83 ?Know they not that God doth know their secret (thoughts) and their secret counsels, and that God knoweth well all things unseen? Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity, as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labor, and throw ridicule on them, God will throw back their ridicule on them: and they shall have a grievous penalty. 80 Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, God will not forgive them: because they have rejected God and His apostle; and God guideth not those who are perversely rebellious. Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the apostle of God: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of God: they said, ?Go not forth in the heat. Say, ?The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat.? If only they could understand! Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do. If, then, God bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: ?Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind.?Sura 4:168: ?Those who reject [islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.?

[snafu]

blah blah blah.......

 

 

Again I'm not saying every Muslim is a terrorist, but every Muslim is a potential terrorist. They have enough in their book for leaders to influence the people to adopt this position. They have, and they will continue to practice this as long as there is no internal protest against it. Let those who are for peace speak louder than those who want to kill.

[wez]

I imagine, like the bible, there are many versions of the Quran and different interpertations. People with evil intentions will twist anything to further their agenda. Lots of people twist hate out of the bible too... sick sh t.

 

That article Hugo posted seemed to be an intelligent, rationally thinking, follower of the Quran.

 

 

What impressed me most, that under it all, he realizes that there is only one true "God" for all people.