Muslims and western society

[timesjoke]

Do you really need to dig this deep to validate invading the middle east and murdering people for natural resources?

 

 

Do you really have to dig so deep to try and make everything about oil?

 

 

Did you know the two Countries we import the most oil from are Canada and Mexico?

 

 

 

 

 

Hugo, the feminists are also mostly liberals, their need to be politically correct over rides their need to promote women's rights. That is why the ACLU refuses to take action against the public schools that have created "special" classes for muslim children so they can pray several times a day. The ACLU would have a cow if this kind of thing was done to allow christian prayer, but somehow it is okay if it is muslim prayer.

[snafu]

...Hugo, the feminists are also mostly liberals, their need to be politically correct over rides their need to promote women's rights. That is why the ACLU refuses to take action against the public schools that have created "special" classes for muslim children so they can pray several times a day. The ACLU would have a cow if this kind of thing was done to allow christian prayer, but somehow it is okay if it is muslim prayer.

 

They did take christian prayer out of school. They can't have Christian symbols. Christians are not allowed to assmeble in public schools. They want to take "under God" out of our pledge of allegiance. They took christmas off of the public calanders. Can't have a Christmas tree either. They won't teach the theroy of intelligent design. But you better have a matt facing meca for those Muslims!

[Anna Perenna]

The point you are missing Anna is there are degrees.

 

While a rape in America and a rape in Iran would be the same or similar at the time it happened, the social barriers a woman must face are completely different. In America, the woman can report the crime and even without much evidence, at least the cops will try to build a case against the attacker and arrest him.

 

In any muslim controlled Country, the woman can only report it if she has 4 men to side with her against the man in question and even with that, she is considered soiled from that moment on.

 

 

But, their society is their society, I don't like what they do to women but when they bring those attitudes into the western world and start doing things like rioting and raping unveiled women, this I see as a huge problem to our societies.

 

 

We cannot say that just because America has a few rapes that it stopps us from being able to complain about their rapes and the worse attached social penalties for complaining about the rape. Just because the rare skinhead does something violent, that does not mean we cannot point out that violence is the norm, not the exception in muslim societies.

 

Americans and western people in general do not target children and other innocents for violence on purpose, muslims on the other hand believe children are the prefered target for their violent attacks.

 

 

Yes, Christians and athiests do bad things, but you cannot compare "modern" events, there is just no real comparison. Look at the many riots in France, or the gang rapes in Australia, the terrorist attacks like 9/11 and many lesser terrorist attacks on children all over the world, the writing is on the wall, it is our decision to read it or ignore it.

 

There was no need for you to patronise me, I have 'missed' no 'point' you were trying to make.

 

Please read my posts properly, particularly my last one:

 

Ok, good point. I personally feel that Islamic women are more oppressed than Western women, too.

 

But just because their justice system isn't the same as ours it doesn't mean the type and frequency of their rapes are any worse than ours - and Western rape stats are awful.

 

And bear in mind that a reported rape doesn't necessarily equate to the rapist being convicted and punished accordingly.

 

If you thing rape is under reported in America, what do you think is happening with them?

 

No, in reality, a muslim woman being raped is much, much worse in comparison because or how completely alone she is after the fact.

 

I never actually said it was under-reported in America, now that you mention it.

 

The support available to women after being raped is inadequate all over the world. The fact that Islamic women have less bureaucratic support than Western women does not make the trauma of the actual rape any worse. Rape is rape is rape. A woman is always going to feel traumatised afterwards, no matter who or where she is.

[Anna Perenna]

Hugo, the feminists are also mostly liberals, their need to be politically correct over rides their need to promote women's rights. That is why the ACLU refuses to take action against the public schools that have created "special" classes for muslim children so they can pray several times a day. The ACLU would have a cow if this kind of thing was done to allow christian prayer, but somehow it is okay if it is muslim prayer.

 

Here we go ....

 

Why do you try to blame almost everything on 'liberals'? You are worse than a broken record.

 

Also, kindly back up your statement about feminists that "their need to be politically correct over-rides their need to promote women's rights".

 

And are you seriously trying to claim that feminists are to blame for the privileges extended to Muslims?

 

Now, that's two straight questions and one simple request. Let's see if you can comply without telling me something about myself (that you have assumed incorrectly).

[snafu]

...The support available to women after being raped is inadequate all over the world. The fact that Islamic women have less bureaucratic support than Western women does not make the trauma of the actual rape any worse. Rape is rape is rape. A woman is always going to feel traumatized afterwords, no matter who or where she is.

 

Well yes and no. the trauma might be greater here only because it's not the norm. But these Islamic women also have to deal with mutilations, being convicted of being raped (blows my mind) and then subjected to nude public caning and or imprisonment for being a victim!

I think thats gotta be pretty damn traumatic. They also have to carry it with them for the rest of there life. I know western women have to carry it too but I don't think the Muslim women are getting counseling afterwords like they would here.

[Anna Perenna]

Well yes and no. the trauma might be greater here only because it's not the norm. But these Islamic women also have to deal with mutilations, being convicted of being raped (blows my mind) and then subjected to nude public caning and or imprisonment for being a victim!

I think thats gotta be pretty damn traumatic. They also have to carry it with them for the rest of there life. I know western women have to carry it too but I don't think the Muslim women are getting counseling afterwords like they would here.

 

Oh, I know. I agree that the aftermath for Islamic women is worse. I also consider them to be more oppressed, but that's just my Westernised view of it.

 

But all raped women have to carry the pain with them, for the rest of their lives.

 

I also find it grossly ironic when Western men claim to be outraged by the way Muslim men treat women, but then think it's fine to sneer at feminism in the same breath.

 

Women are repressed, oppressed, raped, beaten, abused and attacked and generally treated like all over the world.

 

Muslim men are just better at getting away with it.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Women are repressed, oppressed, raped, beaten, abused and attacked and generally treated like all over the world.

 

I couldn't agree with much of this.

 

Women get a fair deal in the West. In the UK most university admissions are to women, and there are sizeable numbers of women in the professions.

 

Raped, beaten and abused ? Yes this can happen. It happens to men too. This is more about societies ills, and particularly the judiciaries unwillingness to punish offenders, than it is about men's attitudes to women.

 

Certainly women are treated like in some parts of the world. Much of Islam for example.

[hugo]

I also find it grossly ironic when Western men claim to be outraged by the way Muslim men treat women, but then think it's fine to sneer at feminism in the same breath.

 

 

 

What people sneer about is how the feminists tend to look the other direction when the oppression is not coming from Christian white males and how they seem to be unwilling to speak out against a growing ideology, derived from Islam, in the West that dehumanizes women.

 

 

Excerpts from:

Women the Future of Freedom

 

By Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006

 

ARTICLES

Weekend Australian

Publication Date: August 26, 2006

 

 

The biggest obstacle that hinders Muslim women from leading dignified, free lives is violence--physical, mental, and sexual--committed by their close families. Here is only a sample of some of the violence perpetrated on girls and women from Islamic cultures:

 

Four-year-old girls have their genitals mutilated: some of them so badly that they die of infections; others are traumatised for life from the experience and will later suffer recurrent infections of their reproductive and urinary systems.

 

Teenage girls are removed from school by force and kept inside the house to stop their schooling, stifle their thinking and suffocate their will.

 

Victims of incest and sexual abuse are beaten, deported or killed to prevent them from filing complaints.

 

Some pregnant victims of incest or abuse are forced by their fathers, older brothers, or uncles to have abortions in order to keep the family honour from being stained. In this era of DNA testing, the girls could demonstrate that they have been abused. Yet instead of punishing the abusers, the family treats the daughter as if she had dishonoured the family.

 

Girls and women who protest their maltreatment are beaten by their parents in order to kill their spirits and reduce them to a lifelong servitude that amounts to slavery.

 

Many girls and women who can't bear to suffer any more take their own lives or develop numerous kinds of psychological ailments, including nervous breakdown and psychosis. They are literally driven mad.

 

A Muslim girl in Europe runs more risk than girls of other faiths of being forced into marriage by her parents with a stranger. In such a marriage -- which, since it is forced, by definition starts with rape -- she conceives child after child. She is an enslaved womb. Many of her children will grow up in a household with parents who are neither bound by love nor interested in the wellbeing of their children. The daughters will go through life as subjugated as their mothers and the sons become -- in Europe -- dropouts from school, attracted to pastimes that can vary from loitering in the streets to drug abuse to radical Islamic fundamentalism.

European policy-makers have not yet understood the huge potential of liberating Muslim women. They are squandering the single best opportunity they have to make Muslim integration a success within one generation. Morally, governments need to eradicate violence against women in Europe. This would make clear to fundamentalists that Europeans take their constitutions seriously. Now, most abusers simply think that Western rhetoric about the equality of men and women is cowardly and hypocritical, since Western governments tolerate the abuse of millions of Muslim women when they're told it's in the name of freedom of religion.

 

The children of successful Muslim women are more likely to have a positive attitude towards the societies in which they live. They will learn at an early age to appreciate the freedom and prosperity they live in and perhaps even understand how vulnerable these freedoms are and defend them.

 

Why are European leaders so slow to appreciate the great role Muslim women can play in a successful integration of immigrants in the European Union? Some blame can be attributed to the passivity of universities and non-governmental organisations in addressing immigrant women's rights. The academic community unanimously condemns violence against women, whether it is committed by family or the state, but it has been negligent in investigating and providing the necessary legal framework and data to help policy-makers make women's rights a priority.

 

In spite of having Arab and Islam faculties, most universities in Europe serve as activist centres to further the Palestinian cause, instead of research and teaching centres for Muslim students. Non-governmental organisations are embarrassingly silent on this fight for human rights. Oh, yes, there is one in Norway that pays attention, Human Rights Service, run by a brave, determined woman, Hege Storhaug. But in the bigger countries, no NGO yet monitors the number of times an honour killing is committed in a member state, or the number of times a girl is circumcised, or the number of times a girl is removed from school and forced into a life of virtual slavery.

 

 

Much of the world missed out on the Enlightenment.

 

More on Ms. Ali:

 

In the Netherlands about half of all education is provided by sponsored religious schools, most of them Catholic or Protestant, for historical reasons. Ayaan Hirsi Ali stated in November 2003 that no religious school should receive government financing. This brought her into conflict with Hans Wiegel, a prominent former VVD leader.

 

She went further in an interview with the London newspaper the Evening Standard in 2007,[64] saying "Close the Islamic faith schools today. [...] Britain is sleepwalking into a society that could be ruled by Sharia law within decades unless Islamic schools are shut down and young Muslims are instead made to integrate and accept Western liberal values. [...] We have to show the next generation of Muslims, the children, that they have a choice, and to do that — to have any hope whatsoever — we have to close down the Islamic faith schools." However, she argued, ‘I haven’t seen anybody coming out of a Catholic or Jewish school advocating violence against women or homosexuals, or wanting to murder innocent people in the name of their religion.’[65]

[timesjoke]

 

The support available to women after being raped is inadequate all over the world. The fact that Islamic women have less bureaucratic support than Western women does not make the trauma of the actual rape any worse. Rape is rape is rape. A woman is always going to feel traumatised afterwards, no matter who or where she is.

 

 

Obviously you are missing the point.

 

Taking just the rape event, yse, the rape is similar to both the American woman and the muslim woman.

 

It is "after" the rape where the two events completely divide.

 

An American woman can go to the police and the man she accuses will be "assumed" guilty until proven innocent. Any jury will believe a crying woman over any man so as long as there is a small amount of evidence to support the woman, the man is convicted.

 

 

A Muslim woman can only have justice if 4 men join her against the man or men that did the crime. In a male dominated society like that, you will not find that happening very often, so the woman gets raped by the man, then raped again by the system that refuses to see her as a person. It is that area that makes her rape ten times worse than the American counterpart.

 

 

Muslim men are not "getting away with it", they are doing it in the open, and not allowing the woman to be seen as human.

 

 

Here we go ....

 

Why do you try to blame almost everything on 'liberals'? You are worse than a broken record.

 

As with all education, repetition is the best way to teach and learn.

 

Of course you would need an open mind for that to work.

 

 

Also, kindly back up your statement about feminists that "their need to be politically correct over-rides their need to promote women's rights".

 

Okay, you explain the silence of these groups to completely ignore the plight of muslim women? They speak up on almost everything else but never really go after the harm done to muslim women.

 

There is no logical reason for this so one plus one equals two. It is common knowledge that feminists are liberals and that liberals are the biggest pushers of being politically correct. They are very loud except for this, clearly one agenda is overriding a lesser agenda.

 

And are you seriously trying to claim that feminists are to blame for the privileges extended to Muslims?

 

Nope, it was liberals, now most feminists are liberals so clearly they could be involved, but not all liberals are feminists, so no, feminists have not been the driving force behind the politically correct trend to give Muslims freedoms like allowing prayer in public school when that right was taken away from christian children.

 

 

Now, that's two straight questions and one simple request. Let's see if you can comply without telling me something about myself (that you have assumed incorrectly).

 

A little smart mouthed arn't you?

 

If your getting pissed off maybe you should not get involved in these kinds of discussions.

 

I never make assumptions, but I also have a saying:

 

 

"You can make your mouth say anything."

 

You can "say" your not one thing or another, but your actions are what truly defines you. Your defending Muslims and trying to make the rape problem sound similar between Americans and Muslim woman is an action that helps define what you truly are.

[Anna Perenna]

I couldn't agree with much of this.

 

Women get a fair deal in the West. In the UK most university admissions are to women, and there are sizeable numbers of women in the professions.

 

Wow. Women get degrees and jobs. How awesome.

 

You know, women get degrees and jobs in Islamic countries too.

 

Raped, beaten and abused ? Yes this can happen. It happens to men too. This is more about societies ills, and particularly the judiciaries unwillingness to punish offenders, than it is about men's attitudes to women.

 

This issue has everything to do with men's attitudes to women. Women are possessions, prizes, pieces of meat to be traded and punished according to men's whims.

 

Certainly women are treated like in some parts of the world. Much of Islam for example.

 

Islam is not a "part of the world". It's a religion.

 

My whole point is that women are treated like in the West, too. I'm not denying that Muslim women are oppressed. I have expressed this several times in this thread already.

 

What people sneer about is how the feminists tend to look the other direction when the oppression is not coming from Christian white males and how they seem to be unwilling to speak out against a growing ideology, derived from Islam, in the West that dehumanizes women.

 

How can you say that? It's the few strong feminists in the Islamic countries who are the ones speaking out about the atrocities happening to them - Mukhtar Mai is an excellent example.

 

I'm a feminist, and I'm not turning my back on the way Muslim men treat women.

 

As a true feminist, I'm also not turning my back on the way western men treat women, either.

 

By the way, the one growing ideology in the West that I find most dehumanising to women is certainly not the Islamic tradition of covering women up, but the proliferation of violent and visceral porn.

 

Certainly you can't tell me that the porn industry is an Islamic Industry.

 

Obviously you are missing the point.

 

No dear, you are. But keep trying to tell everyone that I'm missing it. Maybe someone with half a brain won't bother to go back and read over our posts, and just believe you simply because you-say-so.

 

Just Maybe - fingers crossed!!!

 

Taking just the rape event, yse, the rape is similar to both the American woman and the muslim woman.

 

It is "after" the rape where the two events completely divide.

 

REALLY? OMG!!! REALLY????

 

Because I didn't already say that:

 

Ihe fact that Islamic women have less bureaucratic support than Western women does not make the trauma of the actual rape any worse.

 

Oh, I know. I agree that the aftermath for Islamic women is worse. I also consider them to be more oppressed, but that's just my Westernised view of it.

 

An American woman can go to the police and the man she accuses will be "assumed" guilty until proven innocent. Any jury will believe a crying woman over any man so as long as there is a small amount of evidence to support the woman, the man is convicted.

 

Kindly prove this.

 

 

Muslim men are not "getting away with it", they are doing it in the open, and not allowing the woman to be seen as human.

 

But when white men rape, they allow the woman to feel human?

 

 

Okay, you explain the silence of these groups to completely ignore the plight of muslim women? They speak up on almost everything else but never really go after the harm done to muslim women.

 

There is no logical reason for this so one plus one equals two. It is common knowledge that feminists are liberals and that liberals are the biggest pushers of being politically correct. They are very loud except for this, clearly one agenda is overriding a lesser agenda.

 

How are they ignoring it?

 

And why is the onus of responsibility on "Feminist Liberal" shoulders? They are not the ones raping Muslim women.

 

Surely your anger would be more aptly directed at the rapists themselves. I can't believe Feminists and Liberals are even being faulted for anything in this thread. It's not their fault that men are rapists.

 

 

Nope, it was liberals, now most feminists are liberals so clearly they could be involved, but not all liberals are feminists, so no, feminists have not been the driving force behind the politically correct trend to give Muslims freedoms like allowing prayer in public school when that right was taken away from christian children.

 

Kindly show me proof of Complete Liberal Control of the school system. Because I was under the impression that your government was a Republican government.

 

 

A little smart mouthed arn't you?

 

If your getting pissed off maybe you should not get involved in these kinds of discussions.

 

Please drag yourself from the ancient swamp your ego is dwelling in, and show me how exactly I'm being "smart mouthed" in the following post:

 

Here we go ....

 

Why do you try to blame almost everything on 'liberals'? You are worse than a broken record.

 

Also, kindly back up your statement about feminists that "their need to be politically correct over-rides their need to promote women's rights".

 

And are you seriously trying to claim that feminists are to blame for the privileges extended to Muslims?

 

Now, that's two straight questions and one simple request. Let's see if you can comply without telling me something about myself (that you have assumed incorrectly).

 

I notice you couldn't actually comply.

 

I never make assumptions, but I also have a saying:

 

 

"You can make your mouth say anything."

 

You can "say" your not one thing or another, but your actions are what truly defines you. Your defending Muslims and trying to make the rape problem sound similar between Americans and Muslim woman is an action that helps define what you truly are.

 

You never make assumptions, huh?

 

Funny, because it looks like you just assumed that I've been defending Muslims.

 

Comparing their behaviour to Western behaviour is not a defence.

 

Unless of course you're a flat out liar and you're deliberately trying to smear me with an untrue brush - but I won't assume the worst of you.

 

I'm not like you. Thank Goodness.

[timesjoke]

No dear, you are. But keep trying to tell everyone that I'm missing it. Maybe someone with half a brain won't bother to go back and read over our posts, and just believe you simply because you-say-so.

 

Just Maybe - fingers crossed!!!

 

Well, at first I though you were missing the point, but now I see your purposly avoiding the point because you have no real answer for it to keep in line with your agenda.

 

 

REALLY? OMG!!! REALLY????

 

Because I didn't already say that:

 

No, you contradicted yourself:

 

"Ihe fact that Islamic women have less bureaucratic support than Western women does not make the trauma of the actual rape any worse."

 

"Oh, I know. I agree that the aftermath for Islamic women is worse. I also consider them to be more oppressed, but that's just my Westernised view of it."

 

In the first statement, you claim the less support does not make the trama worse, in the second, you seem to be agreeing with me and admit that the horrible treatment "after" the rape makes the rape worse.

 

Being as the after effect of the rape is part of the rape (unless the victim is killed in the process) then we must consider the entire event, from attack to living life after the event, clearly the muslim woman getting raped is ten times worse than the American being raped.

 

 

That is not to defend any rapist, I believe all rapists should have "severe" penalties, in cases where it is not a "he said/she said" event, I believe the men should never get the chance to rape again, but that is just me.

 

 

 

Kindly prove this.

 

Common knowledge darling, if you cannot even admit to basic principles like this, there is no real point talking to you.

 

 

 

But when white men rape, they allow the woman to feel human?

 

So you cannot understand how the women being treated like garbage by the government "after" the rape, when she is already vulnerable and scared, could be worse than the American system?

 

 

You know darn well I was talking of how the government views the rapes and their requirement to have 4 men back up her claim or she is considered to be telling lies.

 

 

How are they ignoring it?

 

And why is the onus of responsibility on "Feminist Liberal" shoulders? They are not the ones raping Muslim women.

 

Surely your anger would be more aptly directed at the rapists themselves. I can't believe Feminists and Liberals are even being faulted for anything in this thread. It's not their fault that men are rapists.

 

They are faulted by their silence, their refusal to respond because their other agenda of being politically correct is more important to them so they refuse to speak out.

 

 

 

Kindly show me proof of Complete Liberal Control of the school system. Because I was under the impression that your government was a Republican government.

 

Groups like the ACLU are 100% liberal. Their choices of what to attack, and what not to attack helps to control things like school systems. Teachers, teachers unions, public employees, etc.... are all proven to be mostly liberal people.

 

 

Liberals run these things, so their agenda of political correctness flourishes in these places.

 

 

 

Please drag yourself from the ancient swamp your ego is dwelling in, and show me how exactly I'm being "smart mouthed" in the following post:

 

It is not just what you say, it is how you say it.

 

Your snide comments and personal attacks are the biggest problem.

 

You cannot have a logical discussion if your words are driven by emotional motives.

 

 

I notice you couldn't actually comply.

 

I never dodge anything, if you did not understand my reply, please explain what parts were difficult for you and I will gladly expand my reply for you to assist in your understanding.

 

 

You never make assumptions, huh?

 

Funny, because it looks like you just assumed that I've been defending Muslims.

 

No, I never make assumptions, I do make decisions based on what I see though and at this point, all of the posts you have made show a decided liberal slant and the willingness to ignore facts, even twist facts to persue your agenda of being political correct.

 

In this specific case, you downplayed the severe nature of the muslim attitude tword women by making theor problem sound no worse then what is happening in places like America. That downplaying is only intended to preserve an inaccurate picture of real events in muslim culture so your actions show you are in fact defending their actions.

 

 

 

Comparing their behaviour to Western behaviour is not a defence.

 

But inaccurately comparing them is.

 

 

Unless of course you're a flat out liar and you're deliberately trying to smear me with an untrue brush - but I won't assume the worst of you.

 

It is you who attempted to downplay the severity of the muslim rape issue, not me.

 

I'm not like you. Thank Goodness.

 

Now your playing a Wez card, when you liberals say stuff like that, all I picture is a little girl, hands over her ears, closed eyes, screaming "I know you are but what am I?"

 

 

But I do agree, your not like me, I don't allow myself to post through emotions.

[wez]

 

Now your playing a Wez card, when you liberals say stuff like that, all I picture is a little girl, hands over her ears, closed eyes, screaming "I know you are but what am I?"

 

A liberal? I'm not a label, jackass. I'm wez.

 

 

But I do agree, your not like me, I don't allow myself to post through emotions.

 

You must dead then.. cool trick.

 

 

So what's your point with all this? To justify our countries war on Islam? China aborts girls and kills students, The US has a long history of subjugating women, what is your point? Yes, women are oppressed in Islamic nations to a serious degree.. We should cut all ties with Saudi Arabia, right?

[timesjoke]

A liberal? I'm not a label, jackass. I'm wez.

 

Your a Wez, and a Wez is a liberal, many other things to be sure, but definately a liberal.

 

 

 

You must dead then.. cool trick.

 

 

So what's your point with all this? To justify our countries war on Islam? China aborts girls and kills students, The US has a long history of subjugating women, what is your point? Yes, women are oppressed in Islamic nations to a serious degree.. We should cut all ties with Saudi Arabia, right?

 

You know, if you would just pay attention you would not have to ask so many questions.

 

Damn, you remind me of an ex I had, we would watch a movie and she would ask me three or four questions every time about what is going on.

 

 

I will try again, please read the topic title, this is about the way some muslims move from the societies and want the new society to change to accept their beliefs. Part of the discussion has gone to some of the beliefs we do not want to become accepted in our society.

[hugo]

You need to ask why the left wishes to promote Muslim immigration that undermines the civil liberties the left claims to hold so dear.

[Anna Perenna]

You need to ask why the left wishes to promote Muslim immigration that undermines the civil liberties the left claims to hold so dear.

 

Surely you have the answer, Hugo? You always seem to

[hugo]

Surely you have the answer, Hugo? You always seem to

 

I'll give the short answer for now...it is because socialism trumps civil liberties.

[timesjoke]

I'll give the short answer for now...it is because socialism trumps civil liberties.

 

Exactly, I remember reading somewhere many years ago that a socialist agenda was to force increases in the minimum wage. It was considered the easiest method to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor.

 

By increasing the wage of the least desirable segment of the workforce, you basically give everyone else a pay cut because basic goods and services will balance back to the lowest earner standard, in other words, the "percentage" of their income the minimum wage earner spends on things like milk and bread will forever stay the same.

 

Pricew will just adjust to make sure of that.

[Anna Perenna]

I'll give the short answer for now...it is because socialism trumps civil liberties.

 

Ok. But please know that I'll be waiting for the long answer on this one

[hugo]

Ok. But please know that I'll be waiting for the long answer on this one

 

 

I figured you would.