The war on drugs ..

[timesjoke]

My personal experience is that there is only a noticeable detrimental learning effect, in relation to marijuana, when teens and young adults use pot. This is due to the interference in cognitive learning and memory retention.

 

Well we combine your own words here to the many studies saying pot impares learning and we have reason for concern right?

 

 

Fact is that many regular pot smokers are very intelligent. Professors and the like. Marijuana also contributes greatly to the arts.

 

I am sure changing your state of mind with any substance (I would think acid to be best) could help creativity in the arts, to a certain degree at least.

 

As far as being stupid, a lot of very smart and successful people have fallen for the use of drugs. I remember one NASA engineer that I spoke with at a shooting competition held at Florida State Prison. He was an inmate who was one of the guys keeping up the grounds. At the firing range. He was in for cocain related charges, so even smart people do stupid things like get involved with drugs.

 

 

I disagree. Some people are just stupid, this includes some pot smokers. People that make the choice to smoke pot all the time are generally stupid and often make stupid decisions concerning all sorts of matters. Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people can not only function at a high level when smoking, but benefit from it.

 

Some people are just smart too and a very smart person can also stand some dumming down from drugs and function, all that tells me is they may be able to do much more if they were not crippling themselves.

 

 

An addict will always make excuses for his drug abuse, even tell himself his abuse is beneficial to him in some way.

 

 

At the end of the day, after the tussle of work and all that goes with it, I enjoy and benefit greatly from spending a few hours gettin stupid. Quite therapeutic if you ask me.

 

Some people find it therapeutic to beat their wives at the end of a difficult day as well, it does not mean it is the right thing to do.

 

 

 

To give some focus to this discussion, why, exactly, do you think that marijuana should be illegal? Why do you think we should imprison pot smokers?

 

Why should we wage war on a plant that makes people feel better?

 

I have already covered this in this thread but in short, let's look at it this way.

 

You admitted you will not allow your "friends" to be around your daughter because they cannot be trusted. If even you, the most responsible pot smoker I have ever heard of (if your being honest) cannot find beter friends than that to smoke with, then clearly the majority of pot smopkers are very bad people.

 

You also admit it is the youth that is most affected by the negative learning effects of pot and being as out youth is already far behind most other modern societies in education, I see no reason to put more barriers to learning out there as an acceptable thing.

 

 

The cost to society of the one legal recreational drug we have (Booze) is so large it is impossible to even put a dollar about to it. The domino effect of ruined lives is without reasonable comparison to any other problem. Even with drugs being illegal, people are still overcomming their fear of the law to throw their lives away so if we remove that barrier, it will simply get worse. Most of the reason excess drinking is such a problem in society is because it is accepted as okay. The second you give pot, cocain, or any other recreational drug the same status of accepted, you will see the same or worse abuse with them.

 

There have been clear successes in fighting the war on drugs to our children, and just like anything else that is worth doing, this will be a long tough battle. Our children showing clear reduced use shows a generational improvement, even if we cannot have much improvement at the shorter terms.

 

 

 

Lastly, I have real problems with people having mental disorders and not getting the proper treatment. Treating the symptoms of depression, is not curing the depression. Mental problems are every bit, or more, important as other medical needs.

 

You would not try to remove your own gall bladder would you?

 

No, because even if your a trained doctor, treating yourself removes your objectivity.

 

Treating your own mental illness is impossible because your looking at yourself through the eyes of depression or other problems and your vision will not be clear.

[Jhony5]

I agree that any sort of teen drug use is wholly negative. When I started using drugs at 14 my life took a sudden noticeable downturn. And it definitely wasn't a coincidence.

 

What I don't believe is that casual pot smoking has a serious effect on the memory or cognitive abilities of adults. Minor at best. I stopped smoking pot for the better part of 2 months and I can't say I noticed any improvement in memory. Nothing positive or negative came of it. Only that I wasn't partaking in something that I enjoy because some old wrinkly balls son of a bitch's on Capitol Hill say I can't.

 

While I'm stoned, yes I feel slower and less quick witted. But I don't smoke under some guise that I might be extra intelligent or increasingly smart. I smoke to relax. I smoke to chill and slow down. Being that I'm a high strung individual with a mad crazy metabolism, I feel a stark benefit from smoking.

[timesjoke]

I agree that any sort of teen drug use is wholly negative. When I started using drugs at 14 my life took a sudden noticeable downturn. And it definitely wasn't a coincidence.

 

So you agree we need to protect children from pot?

 

 

What I don't believe is that casual pot smoking has a serious effect on the memory or cognitive abilities of adults. Minor at best. I stopped smoking pot for the better part of 2 months and I can't say I noticed any improvement in memory. Nothing positive or negative came of it. Only that I wasn't partaking in something that I enjoy because some old wrinkly balls son of a bitch's on Capitol Hill say I can't.

 

The same guys say cocain is bad and things like murder is wrong.

 

Pot does effect memory and motivation in the average person. Those who use pot tend to be unsavery people (even you admit your pot friends cannot be trusted around your child). There is no redeeming quality for recreational drugs to society.

 

 

While I'm stoned, yes I feel slower and less quick witted. But I don't smoke under some guise that I might be extra intelligent or increasingly smart. I smoke to relax. I smoke to chill and slow down. Being that I'm a high strung individual with a mad crazy metabolism, I feel a stark benefit from smoking.

 

And this is the point, your slowed down and you use pot in lower quantities than the average pot head. The effect is greater in the average user. Many studies show the slowed mental state can last many months after use is stopped.

 

Again, we are already behing in education compared to all other modern nations. We are in line to a point and suddenly out kids stop being motivated to educate themselves, why add to this problem?

[Jhony5]

Well we combine your own words here to the many studies saying pot impares learning and we have reason for concern right?

No, we don't. Society has no business regulating my pot use.

 

Some people are just smart too and a very smart person can also stand some dumming down from drugs and function, all that tells me is they may be able to do much more if they were not crippling themselves.

You are aware that many people dont care to strive for their ultimate success in life. Which often results in a laborious stressful existence behind a desk and away from their family and friends. In short, sometimes settling for less the maximum "success" in life results in an increased happiness and far less stress. Making for a far more enjoyable existence.

 

Some people find it therapeutic to beat their wives at the end of a difficult day as well, it does not mean it is the right thing to do.

Scratches head..."HUH"?

 

Remember, when I gauge the "righteousness" of any personal activity I do so on a barometer that measures how much said activity effects others.

 

You admitted you will not allow your "friends" to be around your daughter because they cannot be trusted.

No I didn't. I said that my friends like to carry pot on their person and I am not going to create conditions for their appearance at my home. I don't hang with my friends when my daughter is around mainly because I devote 100% attention to my kid when I have her. Maybe if the laws of this land weren't so crooked as to make me out to be a villain because some guy near me has a plant rolled up in a cigarette in his pocket and he's near my kid, I wouldn't restrain the two worlds from meeting. In reality, it is no more harmful than a friend coming over with a beer in his pocket. But my crooked society says that pot is evil and I am as well if I allow it to be anywhere near my kid.

 

If even you, the most responsible pot smoker I have ever heard of (if your being honest) cannot find better friends than that to smoke with, then clearly the majority of pot smokers are very bad people.

A stereotype based on lies. Propaganda is the only reason you have to believe such foolish things.

 

You also admit it is the youth that is most affected by the negative learning effects of pot and being as out youth is already far behind most other modern societies in education, I see no reason to put more barriers to learning out there as an acceptable thing.

There are alot of things that kids shouldn't do. Making these things illegal does nothing to protect our kids. Kids shouldn't drive cars. Kids shouldn't smoke cigarettes. Kids shouldn't drink. Kids shouldn't f ck. All of the aforementioned things are bad for kids to do, yet entirely legal for adults. So tell me again why marijuana deserves some specialized classification?

 

You would not try to remove your own gall bladder would you?

If I got high enough, yes I would.

 

 

I made my point earlier in this thread. That most cases of depression aren't a manifestation of a real symptomatic disease. Rather, just a case of the blues. For many people, smoking pot cures the blues. Which is good for the soul.

[Jhony5]

So you agree we need to protect children from pot?

Yes. We should also protect children from beer, sex, cigarettes and driving cars. Throwing adults in prison doesn't save children from everything. It is often not the best answer.

 

Those who use pot tend to be unsavory people (even you admit your pot friends cannot be trusted around your child).

 

I'll make this absolutely clear. It is not that I don't trust my friends around my child because they are pot smokers. I won't risk having the pigs bust my friends around my kid. Thusly making me look like a sh t stain for having "drug addicts" around my child. My friends are good, hard working people with children of their own. They are not reckless criminals. It is the reckless laws that I am protecting my child from. The only real damaging thing she would be confronted with is the backlash of the crooked laws.

[timesjoke]

Yes. We should also protect children from beer, sex, cigarettes and driving cars. Throwing adults in prison doesn't save children from everything. It is often not the best answer.

Nothing man does is ever going to be perfect, but I can tell you what is never going to help, giving up and burrying our heads in the sand to the problem of drugs will not make the problem go away.

 

 

 

I'll make this absolutely clear. It is not that I don't trust my friends around my child because they are pot smokers. I won't risk having the pigs bust my friends around my kid. Thusly making me look like a sh t stain for having "drug addicts" around my child. My friends are good, hard working people with children of their own. They are not reckless criminals. It is the reckless laws that I am protecting my child from. The only real damaging thing she would be confronted with is the backlash of the crooked laws.

 

I don't want to take the time to go back and look, but I am pretty sure you said if your friends were around, the drugs were around, clearly showing they did not display the same self-control you profess to have.

 

I understand your need to display your chosen drug in the best light possible, but clearly any illegal drug user would say the same things for "their" drug.

 

 

And I notice you have still refused to comment on the other big reason to keep pot illegal, the undiagnosed mental illness running around trying to get by with self-medicating and possibly making themselves much, much worse.

 

People need help dealing with stress, not finding new ways to escape reality and ignore the real problem.

[Jhony5]

I don't want to take the time to go back and look, but I am pretty sure you said if your friends were around, the drugs were around, clearly showing they did not display the same self-control you profess to have.

So your making the deduction that since my friends have pot they must be bad, untrustworthy people?

 

I understand your need to display your chosen drug in the best light possible, but clearly any illegal drug user would say the same things for "their" drug.

 

Which is where I start to protest certain peoples misconceptions and the habit of lumping all illegal drugs into one categorization. That of "Illegal drugs". Fact is, all illegal drugs aren't dangerous. Thankfully the law distinguishes between the two. That is why cocaine, heroin and meth are classified as "dangerous substances" under the code of law. Slapping the possessor with a felony possession of a dangerous substance for these drugs.

 

Marijuana is not dangerous. Therefor we should not throw people in prison for possessing marijuana when there are no contributing factors involved that endanger others.

 

And I notice you have still refused to comment on the other big reason to keep pot illegal, the undiagnosed mental illness running around trying to get by with self-medicating and possibly making themselves much, much worse.

Wait? What?

 

So because some people are stupid and have serious mental illnesses and they think pot cures them, we should make marijuana illegal for everybody?

 

That makes no sense. Some crazy bastards think that wearing a tin foil hat helps them. Laws against aluminum, perhaps?

 

Marijuana isn't going to make a mental illness worse. There is no reliable data to support this. It may not help, but it isn't going to hurt.

 

I can't believe that you think pot should be illegal because some people are too stupid, or crazy, to understand when they're really really sick.

 

People need help dealing with stress, not finding new ways to escape reality and ignore the real problem.

Many people just don't have the proper coping mechanisms to deal with life. So therefor, life is the real problem for them. No amount of serotonin reuptake inhibitors will help. No amount of counseling will help. Often, marijuana can help. Often times not. People are all different. I get the nagging feeling from you that you believe that all people are exactly the same. We are as diverse mentally as we are physically.

[snafu]

Alaska has the most leaneant marijuana laws. Also for medical use.

 

Alaska Law...

SUMMARY: Fifty-eight percent of voters approved Ballot Measure #8 on November 3, 1998. The law took effect on March 4, 1999. It removes state-level criminal penalties on the use, possession and cultivation of marijuana by patients who possess written documentation from their physician advising that they "might benefit from the medical use of marijuana." Patients diagnosed with the following illnesses are afforded legal protection under this act: cachexia; cancer; chronic pain; epilepsy and other disorders characterized by seizures; glaucoma; HIV or AIDS; multiple sclerosis and other disorders characterized by muscle spasticity; and nausea. Other conditions are subject to approval by the Alaska Department of Health and Social Services. Patients (or their primary caregivers) may legally possess no more than one ounce of usable marijuana, and may cultivate no more than six marijuana plants, of which no more than three may be mature. The law establishes a confidential state-run patient registry that issues identification cards to qualifying patients.

 

Whats your state like?

 

Alaska - NORML

[timesjoke]

So your making the deduction that since my friends have pot they must be bad, untrustworthy people?

 

If their life is about drug use all the time, yes, they are bad, there is more to life than getting stoned, or at least there should be.

 

 

By default, to surround yourself with pot smokers/dealers, you must surround yourself with criminals. As is often true, marijuana distribution is the tamest of crimes that these often nefarious characters will be involved in. Fencing stolen goods, prostitution, cocaine, it's all out there. Illegal activities are often just rungs on a ladder. Climb up the ladder, or down?

 

 

 

You do have a cops instincts, I'll grant you that. Yes, my very limited and close circle of friends includes ONLY marijuana smokers. None of them are criminals, in the conventional sense of the word i.e. they do not victimize others overtly.

 

That being said, I do not bring my daughter around my friends. Specifically because of the illegal elements of marijuana and the 100% probability that pot will be present when my friends are.

 

!00% possibility that your friends will always have drugs on them?

 

They cannot come over just to hang out? Watch a football game or play cards? They always do drugs?

 

 

Which is where I start to protest certain peoples misconceptions and the habit of lumping all illegal drugs into one categorization. That of "Illegal drugs". Fact is, all illegal drugs aren't dangerous. Thankfully the law distinguishes between the two. That is why cocaine, heroin and meth are classified as "dangerous substances" under the code of law. Slapping the possessor with a felony possession of a dangerous substance for these drugs.

 

Marijuana is not dangerous. Therefor we should not throw people in prison for possessing marijuana when there are no contributing factors involved that endanger others.

 

Wait? What?

 

So because some people are stupid and have serious mental illnesses and they think pot cures them, we should make marijuana illegal for everybody?

 

That makes no sense. Some crazy bastards think that wearing a tin foil hat helps them. Laws against aluminum, perhaps?

 

Marijuana isn't going to make a mental illness worse. There is no reliable data to support this. It may not help, but it isn't going to hurt.

 

I can't believe that you think pot should be illegal because some people are too stupid, or crazy, to understand when they're really really sick.

 

Many people just don't have the proper coping mechanisms to deal with life. So therefor, life is the real problem for them. No amount of serotonin reuptake inhibitors will help. No amount of counseling will help. Often, marijuana can help. Often times not. People are all different. I get the nagging feeling from you that you believe that all people are exactly the same. We are as diverse mentally as we are physically.

 

Nice tirade but you have not one piece of proof that pot is 100% safe for use and that is the problem.

 

There is proof of severe mental and physical problems like the earlier mental retarding pot causes we talked about and you admitted to at least in a short term way. Yes, I believe people needing mental help are causing more harm by refusing to get the assistance they need to live life without chemical dependance.

 

Everyone has the ability to get better but it requires the person to actively "want" to get better but as long as they have the crutch to feel better in short bursts, they won't get the long term help they desperately need.

 

 

What I can't believe is you here saying some people are trapped in depression or other mental illness and we should just ignore the harm being caused by their failure to get the proper help.

 

 

 

Let me give you an example you may be able to understand. Many people get ill and need to take antibiotics to kill infections. There are cases where people "feel" better and do not finish their antibiotics. Even though they "feel" better, the infection is still in their body and it is not completely killed off and can make a comeback where this time, it will take more powerful antibiotics to fight it off.

 

 

The same is true with those who self-medicate to get relief from mental problems. They take their drug and "feel" better but the infection is growing inside them, making them need the relief of their drugs more and more to the point they make excuses in their own minds to use drugs every day. It is incredible how the mind will justify anything to get the "fix" they need.

 

 

 

Recreational drugs are all the same from a moral perspective if not a legal one. Escaping reality because that reality is difficult to deal with is not the answer no matter what drug you choose to use.

 

Now, do I see pot as less damaging compared to other drugs like cocain?

 

No, why?

 

Because people like you make excuses to use it thinking it is harmless and that makes it more wide spread. This again goes to dumbing down of America, we are stupid enough, we don't need more ways to keep us stupid.

 

 

Ever wonder why the average pot smoker works low end jobs? They tend to work construction or fast food, anything where the level of mental exercise is at the lowest, you find pot smokers, if that is, you can pry them out of their mother's basement to get a job in the first place.

[Jhony5]

Indiana - NORML

 

I love the catch 22 tax stamp laws. Additional fines and penalties for not paying tax on a substance to which there is no way to pay said tax. Gimme a friggin break.

 

Marijuana Tax Stamp Laws And Penalties - NORML

 

Most individuals are unaware that such laws exist in their state; others fear that complying with it will incriminate their behavior. Because of this widespread noncompliance, drug tax stamps ? unlike so-called ?sin taxes? on alcohol or tobacco ? do not collect state tax revenue at the customer?s ?point of purchase.? Rather, the legislative intent of drug tax laws is to impose an additional penalty ? tax evasion ? upon drug offenders after they are arrested and criminally charged with a drug violation.

 

In reference to the War on Drugs, we must decide if the ends justify the means. Especially when it has become apparent that there is no end. When voters are allowed to choose whether they want marijuana decriminalized, the voters choose "YES". Most states would never put it out there like that.

 

Alaska and Colorado have both done this, and we see the result. What adds stupidity to the process is the federal government nosing in on sovereign states rights to set their own marijuana laws.

[hugo]

Paige: Let us deal first with the issue of legalization of drugs. How do you see America changing for the better under that system?

 

Friedman: I see America with half the number of prisons, half the number of prisoners, ten thousand fewer homicides a year, inner cities in which there's a chance for these poor people to live without being afraid for their lives, citizens who might be respectable who are now addicts not being subject to becoming criminals in order to get their drug, being able to get drugs for which they're sure of the quality. You know, the same thing happened under prohibition of alcohol as is happening now.

 

Under prohibition of alcohol, deaths from alcohol poisoning, from poisoning by things that were mixed in with the bootleg alcohol, went up sharply. Similarly, under drug prohibition, deaths from overdose, from adulterations, from adulterated substances have gone up.

 

Paige: How would legalization adversely affect America, in your view?

 

Friedman: The one adverse effect that legalization might have is that there very likely would be more people taking drugs. That's not by any means clear. But, if you legalized, you destroy the black market, the price of drugs would go down drastically. And as an economist, lower prices tend to generate more demand. However, there are some very strong qualifications to be made to that.

 

The effect of criminalization, of making drugs criminal, is to drive people from mild drugs to strong drugs.

 

Paige: In what way?

 

Friedman: Marijuana is a very heavy, bulky substance and, therefore, it's relatively easy to interdict. The warriors on drugs have been more successful interdicting marijuana than, let's say, cocaine. So, marijuana prices have gone up, they've become harder to get. There's been an incentive to grow more potent marijuana and people have been driven from marijuana to heroin, or cocaine, or crack.

 

 

Now suppose you legalized. Under current circumstances, a mother who is a crack addict and is carrying a baby is afraid to go the prenatal treatment because she turned herself into a criminal, she's subject to being thrown in jail. Under legalized drugs, that inhibition would be off. And, you know, even crack addicts, mothers, have a feeling of responsi- bility to their children.

 

And I have no doubt that under those circumstances, it would be possible to have a much more effective system of prenatal care, a much more effective system of trying to persuade people who are on drugs not to have children or to go off drugs while they have children.

 

Prohibition was repealed in 1933 when I was 21 years old, so was a teenager during most of Prohibition. Alcohol was readily available. Bootlegging was common. Any idea that alcohol prohibition was keeping people from drinking was absurd. There were speakeasies all over the place. But more than that. We had this spectacle of Al Capone, of the hijackings, of the gang wars...

 

Anybody with two eyes could see that this was a bad deal, that you were doing more harm than good. In addition, I became an economist. And as an economist, I came to recognize the importance of markets and of free choice and of consumer sovereignty and came to discover the harm that was done when you interfered with them. The laws against drugs were passed in 1914, but there was no very great enforcement of it.

 

Friedman: You have statistically reported figures in the books on the amount of alcohol consumed. That went up sharply right after Prohibition, but that was "illegal" alcohol consumption. If you take, as I have done, the chart of alcohol consumption before and after Prohibition, alcohol consumption after Prohibition came back roughly to where it was before, and, over the course of the period since then, if anything, alcohol con- sumption has been going down not in absolute terms, but relative to the population and relative to the growth of income.

 

The Dutch, in Holland, do not prosecute soft drugs, like marijuana, and they would prefer not to prosecute hard drugs, but they feel impelled by the international obligations they've entered into, and consumption of marijuana by young people has gone down. And, equally more interesting, the average age of the users of hard drugs has gone up, which means they're not getting any more new recruits.

 

So, the evidence is very mixed. But I have to admit that the one negative feature of legalizing drugs is that there might be some additional drug habbits. However, I want to qualify that in still another way.

 

The Child who's shot in a slum in a pass-by-shooting, in a random shooting, is an innocent victim in every respect of the term. The person who decides to take drugs for himself is not an innocent victim. He has chosen himself to be a victim. And I must say I have very much less sympathy for him. I do not think it is moral to impose such heavy costs on other people to protect people from their own choices.

 

Paige: For us to understand the real root of those beliefs, how about if we just talk a minute about free market economic perspective, and how you see the proper role of government in its dealings with the individual.

 

Friedman: The proper role of government is exactly what John Stuart Mill Said in the middle of the 19th century in "On Liberty." The proper role of government is to prevent other people from harming an individual. Govern- ment, he said, never has any right to interfere with an individual for that individual's own good.

 

The case for prohibiting drugs is exactly as strong and as weak as the case for prohibiting people from overeating. We all know that overeating causes more deaths than drugs do. If it's in principle OK for the government to say you must not consume drugs because they'll do you harm, why isn't it all right to say you must not eat too much because you'll do harm? Why isn't it all right to say you must not try to go in for skydiving because you're likely to die? Why isn't it all right to say, "Oh, skiing, that's no good, that's a very dangerous sport, you'll hurt yourself"? Where do you draw the line?

[Jhony5]

If their life is about drug use all the time, yes, they are bad, there is more to life than getting stoned, or at least there should be.

 

Your subjective opinion is exactly that, subjective. The status quo means jack and sh t to many people. I am one of those people. This vision of all the millions of people in America being forced to march in lock-step is idiotic at best.

 

100% possibility that your friends will always have drugs on them?

To be exact, I said 100% probability, meaning that if Dennis or Jim knock on my door, they probably gots the weed too. I usually tell them I have my daughter and I cannot come out and play today.

 

They cannot come over just to hang out? Watch a football game or play cards? They always do drugs?

No, they don't always do drugs. They have to sleep sometime.

 

Nice tirade but you have not one piece of proof that pot is 100% safe for use and that is the problem.

Would you really pay any mind to the dozens of links and studies I could post that say definitively, marijuana is 100% safe? I doubt it would be worth my time to research. Fact is, marijuana is "safe". Again, subjectivity comes into play. You will always be able to say, in your opinion, that marijuana is unsafe in one way or another. Marijuana is safer than that double cheeseburger you order at Burger King, I know that much.

 

There is proof of severe mental and physical problems like the earlier mental retarding pot causes we talked about and you admitted to at least in a short term way.

 

DISCLAIMER in children, it is unhealthy, as are many many legal things, substances, behaviors. "Mental retarding" is a wee touch strong of language to utilize, don't ya think?

 

Yes, I believe people needing mental help are causing more harm by refusing to get the assistance they need to live life without chemical dependence.

Do we blame the pot or the person? People need to shoulder responsibility for ignoramus decisions. Not slide it down their back and blame the weed.

 

Because people like you make excuses to use it thinking it is harmless and that makes it more wide spread. This again goes to dumbing down of America, we are stupid enough, we don't need more ways to keep us stupid.

Stupidity is a right. Adults should not have their level of cognitive ability legislated to them when they are minding their own. What I don't need is some rich white asshole legislating to me the many ways for myself to conform to the ideal American facade.

 

Ever wonder why the average pot smoker works low end jobs?

Again, is this fact or just an opinion?

 

They tend to work construction or fast food, anything where the level of mental exercise is at the lowest, you find pot smokers

I met many a dozen "sober" losers in my days as a manager. Pot doesn't cause one to be burdened with only the prospect of a pedestrian job.

 

I cannot count the number of good ,Christian, sober 40 year old losers that I employed as 3rd shift stock clerks in my day. Funny that their salaried manager was a pothead, by default of the status quo, a loser in charge.

 

How did this happen? Am I that special, that much of an exception to the rule that I have achieved what only the top 2 percentile of pot smokers can achieve?

 

I own my own small business. My best buddy Jim owns a paint contract business as well. My other bro Dennis is a maintenance superintendent for a multiple complex apartment/condo property conglomeration in Bloomington. All with families, children, homes and a comfortable position in life. And somehow you expect me to take you propaganda driven outsiders perspective for something of value? I think not.

 

Fact is, when it comes to marijuana, you only know what the anti-drug pamphlets tell you.

 

Yes, I have met ALOT of pot smoking losers in my life. I have also met ALOT of sober losers. Drunk losers. coked out losers. Christian bible thumping losers.

[snafu]

....

Ever wonder why the average pot smoker works low end jobs? They tend to work construction or fast food, anything where the level of mental exercise is at the lowest, you find pot smokers, if that is, you can pry them out of their mother's basement to get a job in the first place.

 

You can't prove that.

If you are a white collar pot smoker it?s frowned upon to admit you?re breaking the law. So I would find it hard pressed to get an accurate assessment of the ones that do indulge when they go home.

[snafu]

I mean look at Clinton. " I tried it but never inhaled". Bull !

[Jhony5]

You can't prove that.

If you are a white collar pot smoker it’s frowned upon to admit you’re breaking the law. So I would find it hard pressed to get an accurate assessment of the ones that do indulge when they go home.

 

I have to agree. Who is more likely to admit to smoking pot; A roofer or an accountant?

 

Blue collar folks tend to be a tad more forthcoming about things such as that.

 

EDIT Woooohooo 420 posts while posting about pot. I must be someones hero for that!!!

[wez]

Minnesota, at least used to be, on par with Alaska as one of the most lenient in the union.. Prolly still is. Buddy got a 50$ fine for 3/4 of an ounce and a pocket full of pipes once... Cop took a one hitter box off me once and let me go. Same cop let me go 3 other times that year for various traffic violations. Going through a stop sign, speeding.. Nice guy.. Treat a cop with respect, many return the same.. Course, this was in the 80's and I was 17..Saw many a friend try to bullsh t a cop and rue the day... Good thing I always told the truth..

[snafu]

Minnesota, at least used to be, on par with Alaska as one of the most lenient in the union.. Prolly still is. Buddy got a 50$ fine for 3/4 of an ounce and a pocket full of pipes once... Cop took a one hitter box off me once and let me go. Same cop let me go 3 other times that year for various traffic violations. Going through a stop sign, speeding.. Nice guy.. Treat a cop with respect, many return the same.. Course, this was in the 80's and I was 17..Saw many a friend try to bullsh t a cop and rue the day... Good thing I always told the truth..

 

Dude don't get caught with more than 100kg. 30 years in the pen!

 

 

Minnesota - NORML<------

[wez]

Dude don't get caught with more than 10kg. 30 years in the pen!

 

Minnesota - NORML

 

 

I was pretty sure they had changed them.. I think those may be Alaska's too.. Isn't that a federal mandatory minimum?

 

10kg = 22 lbs... Hahahahaha.. I should be safe.. I like to smoke now and again.. and I'm 39, debt free, and went back to college to be a nurse after owning a business for 11 years and was accepted to one of the toughest programs to get into at any school in the entire country.. straight A's. I've smoked a lot of pot.. I think it made me smarter..

 

 

I graduated high school with about a solid 1.9 gpa.. after having to retake phy ed to graduate because I refused to square dance.. Hahahaha

 

 

My cumulative college GPA from now and my college in the early 90's is well over 3.5 ... Hmmmmmmm... It was definetely the pot...

[snafu]

Yeah I don't think you could smoke that much in a life time.

[wez]

Yeah I don't think you could smoke that much in a life time.

 

Wouldn't mind giving it a whirl...

[timesjoke]

Your subjective opinion is exactly that, subjective. The status quo means jack and sh t to many people. I am one of those people. This vision of all the millions of people in America being forced to march in lock-step is idiotic at best.

 

The status quo also includes things like murder being illegal, society sets rules, sure we should stand up to try and get change where we believe it is needed and I respect your right to do so, my only point in this reguard is breaking the laws just because you don't like them is wrong.

 

Like my mother always said, there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything.

 

 

To be exact, I said 100% probability, meaning that if Dennis or Jim knock on my door, they probably gots the weed too. I usually tell them I have my daughter and I cannot come out and play today.

 

No, they don't always do drugs. They have to sleep sometime.

 

But this is my point, if their only recreation choice is getting stoned, this says a lot about them.

 

 

Would you really pay any mind to the dozens of links and studies I could post that say definitively, marijuana is 100% safe? I doubt it would be worth my time to research. Fact is, marijuana is "safe". Again, subjectivity comes into play. You will always be able to say, in your opinion, that marijuana is unsafe in one way or another. Marijuana is safer than that double cheeseburger you order at Burger King, I know that much.

 

You mean like the study I posted proving a link to suppressed learning with those who smoke pot?

 

I will admit there is science on both sides of the issue, but the point is we cannot say pot is "safe".

 

 

DISCLAIMER in children, it is unhealthy, as are many many legal things, substances, behaviors. "Mental retarding" is a wee touch strong of language to utilize, don't ya think?

 

Mental ability is suppressed by those who smoke pot, the effects have been shown in some studies to last everal months "after" the person stops smoking pot, I believe Mental retarding is a fair classification.

 

 

Do we blame the pot or the person? People need to shoulder responsibility for ignoramus decisions. Not slide it down their back and blame the weed.

 

When parents allow kids to get guns and the kid kills himself or the neighbor child, do we just say it is the parent's fault, or the child's fault or do we also have laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of children "before" they accidently kill someone?

 

The point is prevention, children, even as old as 25 year olds (in my opinion) are not mature enough to make a decision this critical to their future. As responsible adults, it is our responsibility to try and protect our kids. That is not to say we are always going to do a good job, but doing and failing is better then just giving up on our kids.

 

 

Stupidity is a right. Adults should not have their level of cognitive ability legislated to them when they are minding their own. What I don't need is some rich white asshole legislating to me the many ways for myself to conform to the ideal American facade.

 

Right, is this what people have turned to?

 

The right to be stupid?

 

This is now the montra of society?

 

Maybe I am old, maybe I am out of touch with modern thinking, but I'll be darned if I will ever accept this concept for America. We should not bo so proud of being stupid.

 

 

Again, is this fact or just an opinion?

 

Fact, please see next comment for clarification.

 

I met many a dozen "sober" losers in my days as a manager. Pot doesn't cause one to be burdened with only the prospect of a pedestrian job.

 

I cannot count the number of good ,Christian, sober 40 year old losers that I employed as 3rd shift stock clerks in my day. Funny that their salaried manager was a pothead, by default of the status quo, a loser in charge.

 

How did this happen? Am I that special, that much of an exception to the rule that I have achieved what only the top 2 percentile of pot smokers can achieve?

 

I own my own small business. My best buddy Jim owns a paint contract business as well. My other bro Dennis is a maintenance superintendent for a multiple complex apartment/condo property conglomeration in Bloomington. All with families, children, homes and a comfortable position in life. And somehow you expect me to take you propaganda driven outsiders perspective for something of value? I think not.

 

Fact is, when it comes to marijuana, you only know what the anti-drug pamphlets tell you.

 

Yes, I have met ALOT of pot smoking losers in my life. I have also met ALOT of sober losers. Drunk losers. coked out losers. Christian bible thumping losers.

 

And yet, every example you give is construction/maintenance workers. I love being right.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, we need construction workers, we cannot survive without these trade workers, but my point is that the average pot smoker is working these low end jobs and this cannot be by chance.

 

As I keep saying, there are always exceptions to every rule, but even you, the most responsible drug user I know, is a construction worker.

 

 

By the way, if your good at painting, your not really a painter, any idiot knows the true talent is the prep, especially the caulking, so I call all good painters good caulkers, it makes for a good laugh.

[Jhony5]

The status quo also includes things like murder being illegal, society sets rules, sure we should stand up to try and get change where we believe it is needed and I respect your right to do so, my only point in this regard is breaking the laws just because you don't like them is wrong.

 

Some of the greatest advancements in civil rights in America came from people willing to break the law.

 

But this is my point, if their only recreation choice is getting stoned, this says a lot about them.

I'm glad you mentioned this, actually. Me and my friends are far far more active than many non-smokers. The nation of obese lazy sloths. We all belong to a 4-wheel club. Monroe County 4X4 Club

 

I have posted some pics of myself with the club on this very board. We march for many miles hunting small and big game every fall and winter. We fish and even prospect for gold for endless hours in the summer.

 

Marijuana is not our only recreation choice. It is simply part of our culture, a terribly misunderstood culture full of ignorant stereotypes. Such as the typical lazy unemployed pothead sitting on his/her ass all day smoking out of a bong and playing video games.

 

I feel safe in saying that the typical pothead probably gets out more than the typical CSI watching fat ass American.

 

You mean like the study I posted proving a link to suppressed learning with those who smoke pot?

 

I will admit there is science on both sides of the issue, but the point is we cannot say pot is "safe".

Like I said, the use of the word "safe" is going to be mired in semantics. The only danger that one could cite is some disputable short term memory loss. Actually, the least safe thing, and most harmful to society, about marijuana, is the jail time.

 

 

When parents allow kids to get guns and the kid kills himself or the neighbor child, do we just say it is the parent's fault, or the child's fault or do we also have laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of children "before" they accidental kill someone?

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Just like with pot; Pot doesn't hurt people, people hurt themselves with pot (When they act like jackasses and smoke it all day long, every day. Or try to stave off severe clinical depression by staying high all day. Misuse doesn't suggest an item/substance is bad. I could smoke rat poison to get high. If this trend were to catch on, should we blame the rat poison or the idiots that are smoking it?

 

Right, is this what people have turned to?

 

The right to be stupid?

 

This is now the montra of society?

 

Maybe I am old, maybe I am out of touch with modern thinking, but I'll be darned if I will ever accept this concept for America. We should not bo so proud of being stupid.

An individuals rights should not be infringed because of faulty thinking. When marijuana was first outlawed, it was only due to outrageous propaganda and extraordinary lies. Politics and money had more to do with the prohibition of marijuana than any real danger. The DuPont Corporation feared marijuana, they spearheaded the prohibition of hemp/marijuana. It is a litany of absurd things like this that led to, and keep, marijuana being illegal.

 

And yet, every example you give is construction/maintenance workers. I love being right.

I was citing people that I have close relationships with. Google around a bit and you'll see many white collar people talking about smoking weed.

 

You are being extremely short cited.

 

If and when you have time, some pertinent reading;

 

White Collar Drugs - Professional People Fuel the Drug Trade

 

According to Terry Miller, 81 marijuana growers were busted in 1996. Of those, Miller says 80 were white and generally middle-class citizens, including an architect, an accountant and a 64-year-old retired postmaster. Loney contends the problem with drugs crosses all economic borders. "If only one group of people used drugs then it would be much easier to eliminate drugs. But it involves every stitch of society."

 

 

"The real emphasis (of drug use) is people with money and the capacity to buy and share drugs while not committing crimes on the side," says Turner. "Who really uses drugs? People would be surprised. The last significant case I prosecuted in 1992 in the U.S. attorney's office was a test case. We arrested a large cocaine ring, got their pagers, numbers and about six in the conspiracy, but 13 others were respected professionals with nice suits and cars. We just did it as a test to show the extent of the problem and confirm that professional people fuel the drug trade."

 

 

MetroActive Features | Marijuana in San Francisco

 

White-collar pot smokers are rarely willing to go on record about their use.

 

 

As I keep saying, there are always exceptions to every rule, but even you, the most responsible drug user I know, is a construction worker.

I'd bet my left testicle that you meet, and have met, countless professionals that secretly smoke weed. You would never guess it. As they say, "It takes one to know one". And they sure as sh t ain't telling your square ass about it (No offense, but you are kinda square bro).

[timesjoke]

I'd bet my left testicle that you meet, and have met, countless professionals that secretly smoke weed. You would never guess it. As they say, "It takes one to know one". And they sure as sh t ain't telling your square ass about it (No offense, but you are kinda square bro).

 

Being as I am talking about what can be proven, and you can only talk about what "might" be, we have come to a point where we are beating a dead horse.

 

The "provable" facts show at the least, very high concern for the mental retardation caused by smoking pot, both short term and long term, in some cases the harm can last months.

 

I pointed out you and all your friends are construction workers but you want to point out two or three news stories about arrests, who cares about arrests, to be honest I will openly admit here that the simple folks tend to be better at breaking the law and not getting busted then the "white collar" crowd.

 

Most pot smokers don't get busted, most users are in jobs like construction where thinking power is not the most important aspect of their day. You can try to ague but your a walking/talking example of the facts.

 

 

Pot as a recreational drug is not "needed" in society. I can see some medical uses, but we have enough problems with the one legal drug we have.

 

Making pot or any other drug legal will not remove any crime, in fact it will greatly increase crime because the number of addicted people will increase by a factor of 20 at the least.

 

Legal or not, an abuser of drugs cannot support a drug habbit unless they are independantly wealthy so they will need to find ways to pay for their severe addiction.

 

We have covered all the bases I believe so unless someone can offer a new direction to consider, this discussion has run it's course.

 

 

Jhony, I don't think your a bad person, I believe that for a drug addict, your as good as it gets, I agree that pot is possibly the most gently addiction anyone can get, but I satill see no value to society for recreational drugs, and only harm such as mental illness not getting proper treatment. I know you feel "your" drug is good and other drugs are bad, but I see all mind altering substances as bad for society.

 

 

I'm sorry, but as a parent, I really have no other choice but to try and make a world with as few traps as possible. No, I don't think we are doing as good a job as we could, my idea of removing all money would stop all illegal drug trade but it will take time to make that happen. We could also close all borders with the military and inspect "everything" to partly stop the drug trade. There is more we can do, but the important thing is to never give up on our kids or our comunities.

 

Peace brother.

[Jhony5]

We have covered all the bases I believe so unless someone can offer a new direction to consider, this discussion has run it's course.

 

Agreed. Unless someone has a different angle they'd like to press. I think we know where we both stand.

 

Jhony, I don't think your a bad person, I believe that for a drug addict, your as good as it gets

 

I would get high on life but I can't keep it lit long enough to smoke it.

 

Believe it or not, it doesn't bother me when you call me a drug addict. I suppose, by all applicable definitions, I am. Although, I will say that I was once what I consider to be a drug addict. Many many years ago when I would take any pill, powder or suppository that any idiot told me would get me high. Back long ago when I had no responsibilities nor cares, I would spend 80% of my paychecks on drugs. The first thing I would think of when I woke up was drugs. If I didn't have any drugs, or was running low, my priority was getting more drugs.

 

I guess perspective is key. After some of the things I have seen and done, smoking a little grass is so completely insignificant to me within the realm of what comprises a true "drug addict".

 

Making pot or any other drug legal will not remove any crime, in fact it will greatly increase crime because the number of addicted people will increase by a factor of 20 at the least.

This is the only thing I am going to bother contending. Marijuana is so widely accessible and cheap, that people do not have to try to obtain it. In short, if you want pot, you can get it. Therefor the number of additional "addicts" would be utterly minimal. Legalization would end 98% of all marijuana related crime. As it is, the only crimes related to marijuana are possession, distribution and cultivation. Legalization would mean that people would no longer sell it (Minus the largest marijuana related crime). Possessing wouldn't be illegal anymore (Minus number 2 greatest pot crime). And cultivation would be GREATLY diminished, if not altogether obsolete or legal (Minus #3).

 

With prohibition we enable countless thousands of miniature Al Capones.

 

I still see no value to society for recreational drugs

 

All I can say to that is, some of the most driven and successful people I have met are also some of the most uptight, stressed out and miserable people I have ever met.

 

Under achievement is under rated.

 

Peace brother.

Back at 'cha. Make love, not war and all that jazz.

[snafu]

TJ you might not see the need for recreational drugs but probably 80% of the worlds population dose. It's not going away anytime soon.

 

Like Jhony, I did all kinds of drugs in my younger days. It was the norm back then were I'm from. I'm not proud of it but it is what it is. I used my God given will power to quit them.

 

The first step to the war on drugs would be to realize that making marijuana federally legal would save the taxpayers money. Your doing nothing more than putting people in jail for self indulgents and your paying for it.

Money used on enforcement and incarceration alone can help to fight the war on drugs that do have an adverse effect on society. Like Crack, meth and the opiates.

 

If marijuana were federally legal I would grow it for my own consumption and mind my own business. I would probably buy it commercially if I had to but would rather grow it.

I don't buy pot because I have a friend that grows his own for his own consumption. He gives it to me but even that's illegal. Who are we hurting?