Iws

[timesjoke]

Oops, with your obvious backhanded attacks, you have chosen poorly.

 

Even if I did make backhand attacks, is that better or worse than your open and direct attacks like calling me a child or insane?

 

It seems your the kind of guy who wants to dish out lots of abuse but the second anyone returns the favor, you go off the deep end, maybe your choices are made poorly.

 

 

TJ, here's the deal.

 

If you still think I was targeting you, the admins saw through your facade and I was given the green light to go at you months ago, but thought you could be reasoned with.

 

I could care less what anyone said, of course the admins supported you, I would never believe they would take me over you. You keep missing the point no matter how many times I show it to you, here let me say it again, I never wanted to have anything to do with anything other then debating, the only reason any of this happened is because you refused to take action to deal with Wez.

 

I very easy to reason with, try using some reason instead of making knee jerk reactions based on your hurt feelings.

 

 

My problem was, I was trying to reason with someone who appears to be an insecure, paranoid, control freak, and you can't reason with people who have mental disorders. (not my diagnosis. I showed this site, and links to other sites you are on, including The Jungle, to a psychologist friend of mine, who went to a very reputable school I might add, and that's what they came up with about you.) Some of the common traits on this site and other sites are that, when you don't get your way, you cry about being picked on by other members, other members don't behave like you want, mods are out to get you, your vagina hurts, or whatever. my terms, not her's I would include the name of the actual disorder she said you seem to be suffering from but that wouldn't be nice.

 

First of all no psychologist worth a squirt of piss would make a diagnosis based on postings on a forum, there are too many factors like 87% of all people acting completely against their real personas when on an internet environment to make any kind of determination.

 

Second, if there was any doubt in anyone's mind that you are obsessive when it comes to me you have now removed all doubt. Why woukld anyone go through so much trouble to try and pick apart another individual on an internet forum? Clearly you have major problems you need help with.

 

 

Third, being as I just received flying colors on my examination from a real psychologist (the ex-wife was trying games, too bad it backfired on her and she is now getting court ordered counseling, lol) clearly everything you just posted is garbage intended to belittle me and put me down to make you feel superior, too bad for you the result for the forum is they now see you the same way I do, a control freak that when his authroity was questioned, he started reaching in all directions to try and put me down.

 

 

From this and personal experience, I came to the conclusion that you think you have to be in control of everything that relates to you, but when this doesn't happen, your insecurities kick in and that feeds your paranoia. You then turn into a big whiner, if you think the whining is working, you press harder, trying to moderate or control the site, using the whining and complaining.

 

The funny part is you keep refusing to see that all of this, every shread is your fault. Wez was being called out for his excessive and childish behavoir by more then just me, and not jusr eddo and brotherman either. Many people all saw Wez as a problem but you did nothing. When several of us started commenting to you about the need to take action, again you refused to act. We all complained more and you made half hearted attempts that did nothing. We compalined more and you did more half hearted attempts that did not work.

 

At one point, most of the ones complaining stopped careing, they saw that Wez was still doing exactly what he has always done but your promises produced nothing but more failures. I as the last vestage of hope that something could be done never gave up, I guess my biggest problem was to care about this forum more then you cared about it.

 

 

As you can see from the responses by both, Cloaked and Bender, who are the administrators of the site, your tactics are very transparent. (by the way, there has been extensive conversation in the hidden forum about you and what you are trying to do, for some time now)

 

I am glad to have supplied you with some entertainment but as I keep saying, if your looking for the reason I started pushing for you to deal with Wez was because you were not doing your job. If you had acted early on, none of this would have ever happened, but you can blame it all on me if it makes you feel better about yourself.

 

 

You are welcome to stay, nobody is forcing you to leave, but from this point forward, I have put up with more personal attacks, backhanded comments and other crap from you, then any mod on any site I have belonged to has ever done, without responding. Because of your inability to see things as they are a "zero tolerance" policy in effect, regarding your back door attempts to moderate the site.

 

How many times do I have to say this, my actions were only made possible by your failure to deal with Wez. We cannot have a successful debating forum with someone running around spamming "I'm not you" in every thread.

 

 

If you want to engage in debates, that's fine, I welcome civil debate on any issue, but cross me with a personal attack in the debate, outside of a debate personally or as to my moderating style regarding any situation you aren't involved in personally, and the "Idiot Box" or "Time Out" will be your friend.

 

I just pissed myself with the fear you put into my soul, seriously your one scary guy, what is next, do you run off to a palm reader to look for justification to attack me?

 

Your making all sorts of personal attacks against me in just this thread alone but you think I should just be meek and humble?

 

 

Let me give you a little advise, respect is earned, not taken by force.

 

 

Like I told you in the PM, this isn't your site and this is the way it is. I tried to tell you several times in PM's that my view was more then my own and implied that the Admins felt the same. You seem to have felt that I was bluffing. Now as I said to you many times, you can either use the ignore button for members you don't like or deal with it, but in the end, nobody is making you come back here.

 

Best wishes and have a nice day.

 

Joe

 

Where did I ever give you the impression that I thought the admins did not support you?

 

Man your just making it a habit to be wrong about everyting.

 

But, you again show a very bad side, why is this not my site? Every member of a forum should be able to feel that this is their site, something to be proud of and take possession of. Your looking at this the wrong way if your wanting people to stay here.

 

 

 

If you don't feel you can get that here, I guess you can try to find it at 2TJ, where you spent the last day or so, sucking on the teets there, bad mouthing this site.

 

If repeating the truth is bad mouthing in your opinion then fine, call it what you want but I don't see telling the truth as bad mouthing.

 

 

P.S. To everyone else, I'll just take this time to out myself, since TJ has used veiled attempts to do so, for months now, and save him the time. My profession, as Bender and Cloaked know, is that of a law enforcement officer. The only reason I have not made that public is that I learned long ago that, when meeting new people, in my line of work, it's best to let them know you as a person, before knowing your profession, otherwise they pre-judge you. From this all I can say is, before you judge me by my job, think about some of my views, or if you can't remember them, go back and see how I replied to the threads here. I guess I just took away the last shred of power you thought you had, TJ. Good luck in the future, Bud.

 

What a loser, I have never made any attempt to do anything of the sort, your letting your imagination run away with you, if you spent half the time reading what people say as you do being obsessed about me you would have seen this comment by Bender directed at me:

 

IWS has a vendetta against you? Oh please, I know they guy IRL, and I know what he does for a living, and so don't a couple others here. Even the idea is laughable at best. Actually, if anything, you might have something in common if you care to PM him and find out.

 

He was given the MOD position for a very specific reason... integrity.

 

Hence my reply pointing out that your job does not mean you have integrity, in fact most of the time it means the exact opposite.

 

I have never broken a confidence in my life and when you asked me to not share your profession to the forum I took that to heart, too bad your taking everything personal and wrong.

[phreakwars]

An odd thing about this all, is I have only seen complaints coming from 2 people about wez. And I'm not talking about usual forum banter complaints, but complaints as a reported post.

 

If all these other members you claim are having this problem with WEZ, why have they not also reported his posts? Am I to believe they are not aware of that as an option and you are their spokesman?

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[timesjoke]

An odd thing about this all, is I have only seen complaints coming from 2 people about wez. And I'm not talking about usual forum banter complaints, but complaints as a reported post.

 

If all these other members you claim are having this problem with WEZ, why have they not also reported his posts? Am I to believe they are not aware of that as an option and you are their spokesman?

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Maybe they juat can't be bothered?

 

There have been complaints about Wez all over the forum, how is anyone supposed to know that you ignore complaints made on the open forum?

 

 

To be honest, I thought the staff would act on their own when they see a problem, not wait for people to complain.

[phreakwars]

Maybe they juat can't be bothered?

 

There have been complaints about Wez all over the forum, how is anyone supposed to know that you ignore complaints made on the open forum?

 

 

To be honest, I thought the staff would act on their own when they see a problem, not wait for people to complain.

You would rather we set our own standard of free speech beyond the language censors we have placed in the site by making a judgment call based on our own opinion of a person? Is this what you you are telling me?

 

What ever happened to democracy here? You certainly don't seem to want it to hold true in a forum structure. Why is that?

 

Don't know if you happened to catch that post on here that talked about what were doing with the site in the future and now have in the works on a test platform, but people who sign up on this board will be assigned their own forums with their own rules among many other things.

 

What cha gonna do when WEZ makes his own rules? And vice versa.

 

In the mean time you can either do as we keep suggesting and put wez on ignore, or you can go grovel elsewhere and find a sympathy crowd.

 

If you feel the MOD is targeting you, then piss off and complain elsewhere as well... but under no circumstances, don't ever think your own personal opinion on someone is a reflection of others. That makes you the bad guy either way.

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[timesjoke]

You would rather we set our own standard of free speech beyond the language censors we have placed in the site by making a judgment call based on our own opinion of a person? Is this what you you are telling me?

 

It is called moderating, if you had not intent to do some moderating outside of official complaints maybe someone could have told me, I know I never got the memo.

 

What ever happened to democracy here? You certainly don't seem to want it to hold true in a forum structure. Why is that?

 

I'm sorry, I missed the vote on if a psychologist should be consulted and used to berate/belittle me on the forum.

 

I don't remember seeing any democratic methods being used at all, but we can see a very good example of an authoritarian method being used when I dare to ask questions and ask for action.

 

Don't know if you happened to catch that post on here that talked about what were doing with the site in the future and now have in the works on a test platform, but people who sign up on this board will be assigned their own forums with their own rules among many other things.

 

Again, a lot of extra work and mess when it could have all been avoided long ago. I keep going back to the old saying, the proof is in the pudding, so far the results of attempts have all failed.

 

What cha gonna do when WEZ makes his own rules? And vice versa.

 

If he has his own forum then there is nothign to be concerned with now is there, but so far that is not the case now is it?

 

In the mean time you can either do as we keep suggesting and put wez on ignore, or you can go grovel elsewhere and find a sympathy crowd.

 

Grovel?

 

I never grovel, it is not good for the soul, lol.

 

If you feel the MOD is targeting you, then piss off and complain elsewhere as well... but under no circumstances, don't ever think your own personal opinion on someone is a reflection of others. That makes you the bad guy either way.

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Oh I never assume anything, I always make sure I know what I'm talking about before I say it, something many other people don't bother doing.

 

While I know the MOD is targeting me (the anal move to go find a psychologist to give him justification speaks for itself) I also know that things have been a tad silent on the forums of late, I wonder why?

 

Now let me get this straight, first you say you only take action if people complain, but then you say to complain elsewhere and to piss off, whitch one is it?

 

 

So if your only going to pay attention to what you see as a problem, why should anyone complain just to be ignored?

[phreakwars]

Nobody is being ignored, not the complainer or the complainee. And he has been moderated just as you have.

 

But tell me this, why should I take the MULTIPLE complaints over 1 person over the overall complaints of many? And that is EXACTLY what you are doing. And again, if he is annoying you, put him on ignore. Hey if it works for Yahoo Messenger, it works for forums as well, no 2 ways about it. If you need to persist in complaining about someone, yet nobody else for the most part is, then tough.. put the guy on ignore and quit worrying about it.

 

I believe if the protocol of democracy holds true, then a significant jump of complaints coming from multiple people would be grounds for taking action against an individual... If you hadn't noticed, multiple infractions for multiple reasons lead to an inevitable ban.

 

If you think for a minute were gonna speed up the process for your own benefit, then you don't belong on this site.

 

Now your complaint is you are being picked on by the MOD.

 

Yeah, heard complaints like that a thousand times over directed towards myself on many occasions... I guess I can at least say for the most part, the complaints were valid... your damn right I was probably picking on said member, I make no effort to hide such facts. In this case however, I am seeing complete CRAP.

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[timesjoke]

Nobody is being ignored, not the complainer or the complainee. And he has been moderated just as you have.

 

My complaint is not about the moderation so much as the lack of success.

 

 

But tell me this, why should I take the MULTIPLE complaints over 1 person over the overall complaints of many? And that is EXACTLY what you are doing. And again, if he is annoying you, put him on ignore. Hey if it works for Yahoo Messenger, it works for forums as well, no 2 ways about it. If you need to persist in complaining about someone, yet nobody else for the most part is, then tough.. put the guy on ignore and quit worrying about it.

 

So we should ignore what you fail to deal with right? Your way of dealing with the problem is to make everyone else deal with it while you sit back and watch the show?

 

I believe if the protocol of democracy holds true, then a significant jump of complaints coming from multiple people would be grounds for taking action against an individual... If you hadn't noticed, multiple infractions for multiple reasons lead to an inevitable ban.

 

If you think for a minute were gonna speed up the process for your own benefit, then you don't belong on this site.

 

I never asked for anything to be sped up, in fact at the beginning of this mess there was no process or moderation at all. We have gone from nothing to whatever you call this and no matter what you call it there is another very good word for it, ineffective.

 

 

Now your complaint is you are being picked on by the MOD.

 

Yeah, heard complaints like that a thousand times over directed towards myself on many occasions... I guess I can at least say for the most part, the complaints were valid... your damn right I was probably picking on said member, I make no effort to hide such facts. In this case however, I am seeing complete CRAP.

.

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Hard to see clearly when you looking through dirty glasses.

 

You think a mod claiming to have consulted a psychologist and using that to launch that kind of personal attack as normal?

[wez]

Why can't you ignore feature me TJ? I don't understand... I've never been granted a rope as long as the one you are at 2TJ, or here. If you can't ignore feature me for whatever reason as every staff member here has suggested numerous times, you know where I'm not, and will never be.

 

 

Should I be thrown in a black hole so you can feel good about yourself? I'd do it myself if I actually thought that would help you, but I know better.

[eddo]

IWS, I like you, your thoughts and opinions, and have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt around here. But this:

(not my diagnosis. I showed this site, and links to other sites you are on, including The Jungle, to a psychologist friend of mine, who went to a very reputable school I might add, and that's what they came up with about you.)

has got to be the freakiest thing I have ever heard of anyone doing to an online "foe"...

 

 

 

 

Second, if there was any doubt in anyone's mind that you are obsessive when it comes to me you have now removed all doubt. Why woukld anyone go through so much trouble to try and pick apart another individual on an internet forum?

I gotta say TJ has a good point here. Maybe I'm wrong, but showing posts, that could very easily be taken out of context, but were absolutely taken out of the heat of the discussion, and showing them to a third party is silly, and screams of looking for validation. I could be over-reacting, but that really weirded me out. Who else has your shrink friend looked at? Did she tell you that I am under-compensating for having a large penis?

 

At one point, most of the ones complaining stopped careing, they saw that Wez was still doing exactly what he has always done but your promises produced nothing but more failures. I as the last vestage of hope that something could be done never gave up, I guess my biggest problem was to care about this forum more then you cared about it.

 

IWS, I can't go as far as TJ and say this is all your fault, because I honestly believe you are trying to be fair to all, and I know you have taken action against Wez. But TJ makes a good point with the lack of caring. It gets frustrating to the regular members to report a post, and then he keeps up the crap. It's hard from the outside looking in to see progress, and I think that is what I want more than anything with wez- it's why I keep trying to get him to understand my point of view on it all, and the lack of said progress is why it's so hard to deal with him on a civil level when he starts back up.

BUT, this is all about our public perception. With TJ being an admin at another site, and myself being a former admin- we (or at least I) get used to seeing and hearing the behind the scenes stuff, and it is really hard to adjust to not knowing what the admins are doing to stabilize a situation. Know what I mean?

 

 

 

It is called moderating, if you had not intent to do some moderating outside of official complaints maybe someone could have told me, I know I never got the memo.

 

That I can totally agree with. If that much value is put on the "official" complaints, then things may have worked differently here. Although, if IWS is modifying wez's posts before they can be "officially" reported, then isn't something being done before the official complaints?

 

 

 

 

If he (wez) has his own forum then there is nothign to be concerned with now is there, but so far that is not the case now is it?

 

Fan-frickin-tastic idea! I've been telling wez for years to go get his own forum where he can set the rules and learn about running an effective forum. I really think if he would, he'd learn a ton about how he interacts with people, and how much it detracts form the purpose of the forum when people start spamming and trolling.

[phreakwars]

My complaint is not about the moderation so much as the lack of success.

You mean the lack of fulfillment to what you think and end result should be.

 

So we should ignore what you fail to deal with right? Your way of dealing with the problem is to make everyone else deal with it while you sit back and watch the show?

Fail? Your idea of failing is again, not getting an issue resolved in the way you personally think it should have been handled. Failure would be doing something like letting someone else dictate how we choose to operate.. ain't gonna happen.

 

I never asked for anything to be sped up, in fact at the beginning of this mess there was no process or moderation at all. We have gone from nothing to whatever you call this and no matter what you call it there is another very good word for it, ineffective.

If your not asking for a speed up, then how can you even try to make a claim of ineffectiveness? You have been given an option of your own choosing on how to deal with an individual whom you'd rather not hear from, you fail to do that, that is your own choosing, not mine or anyone elses. Don't give me any of that crap about how ineffective our protocol is, take it to your own damn forum.

 

We have done many other forums with lots of members, I highly doubt we need your advice or your guidance. You on the other hand, have been given the means to handle the situation,either ignore him, or shut up and put up, or leave. His "wezzings" have been documented for future reference and line him up for more severe punishment if his actions continue. Or would you rather we just say, "HEY WEZ, TJ AND A COUPLE OTHERS THINK YOUR A COMPLETE BAFOON, YOUR OUT"

 

Hard to see clearly when you looking through dirty glasses.

No need to give me stupid analogies, I am beyond that.

 

You think a mod claiming to have consulted a psychologist and using that to launch that kind of personal attack as normal?

I look at it as an observation. If it hurts your feelings, then leave.

 

You obviously don't want to heed such advice either as you keep trying to rebut me in an argument you will in no way ever win.

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[wez]

Fan-frickin-tastic idea! I've been telling wez for years to go get his own forum where he can set the rules and learn about running an effective forum. I really think if he would, he'd learn a ton about how he interacts with people, and how much it detracts form the purpose of the forum when people start spamming and trolling.

 

 

I'm ok eddo.. maybe I can give you some lessons on interacting with people.

 

You guys remind me of my ex, at the very end of our relationship when 20 years of truth came spewing forth from my pie hole (no control of it), and she would literally cover her ears and run from me.. But always wanted to come back.. and still does. She told me 3 weeks ago if I told her there was any shred of a chance for us again, she would not date anyone until that time. I told her the truth.. From what happened the other day with her, you can figure out what my answer was. I don't need your interpersonal communication lessons, or else.

 

 

A month later, after my pie hole, and soul was clean, she tells me I'm right about everything, and after her "man", beat her the other night, I'm the first person she went to.. Please explain.. Have you ever had a girlfriend? Know what that's like?

[wez]

Maybe that's the deal, there is never any behind the scenes stuff with me eddo.. I'm an open book, read at your own risk, or you can use the ignore feature. I will NEVER have another person dictate my reality for me again.

[phreakwars]

Here's another quick point to be made. If you think we are somehow siding with wez and he is hindering this forum from growing any further, that's our burn now isn't it? It sure isn't yours and it's not a concern you should have.

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[ImWithStupid]

IWS, I like you, your thoughts and opinions, and have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt around here. But this:

 

has got to be the freakiest thing I have ever heard of anyone doing to an online "foe"...

 

I gotta say TJ has a good point here. Maybe I'm wrong, but showing posts, that could very easily be taken out of context, but were absolutely taken out of the heat of the discussion, and showing them to a third party is silly, and screams of looking for validation. I could be over-reacting, but that really weirded me out.

 

Sorry if it weirded you out. It's not like I went out of my way to seek a professional opinion. I happened to be talking to her and after some past discussion with some of the other staff, wanted an opinion. I didn't say anything to sway or give my opinion, I just asked her to check out TJ's behavior and let me know what she thinks.

 

This may not be his true self, and just an online persona, I don't know.

 

I guess you could say that I was trying to find some form of validation that I wasn't the only one seeing what was going on with TJ, and wasn't being unfair with him as he claims.

 

Who else has your shrink friend looked at? Did she tell you that I am under-compensating for having a large penis?

 

Nobody. She is a friend from my past that I ran into this weekend, as she was back in town. I really only see or talk to her once or twice a year.

 

IWS, I can't go as far as TJ and say this is all your fault, because I honestly believe you are trying to be fair to all, and I know you have taken action against Wez. But TJ makes a good point with the lack of caring. It gets frustrating to the regular members to report a post, and then he keeps up the crap. It's hard from the outside looking in to see progress, and I think that is what I want more than anything with wez- it's why I keep trying to get him to understand my point of view on it all, and the lack of said progress is why it's so hard to deal with him on a civil level when he starts back up.

BUT, this is all about our public perception. With TJ being an admin at another site, and myself being a former admin- we (or at least I) get used to seeing and hearing the behind the scenes stuff, and it is really hard to adjust to not knowing what the admins are doing to stabilize a situation. Know what I mean?

 

I'm sure being an admin or former admin, it is hard not knowing what is going on behind the scenes.

 

As for TJ, it had been requested several times that he use the ignore feature, he refused to use a simple solution and spent the last several months attacking me, about how I was handling the situation. He went out of his way to troll around the board, following wez, looking for reasons to report him and jumping in on things that didn't even relate to him. This is not only the exact opposite of the ignore feature, it's strangly obsessive.

 

Wez made several attempts to reconcile and was begging for TJ's input on why the Panama video was nothing but propaganda.

 

I PM'd him asking him to one more time give wez a chance, and all he said was that wez was anti-military and anti-American and he will never going to be able to get past that. If he isn't even going to try, why should anyone else?

 

That I can totally agree with. If that much value is put on the "official" complaints, then things may have worked differently here. Although, if IWS is modifying wez's posts before they can be "officially" reported, then isn't something being done before the official complaints?

 

TJ twisted that around too. I told TJ that I was leaving his complaints about wez to the other staff as, it was clear that no matter what I did or didn't do, he would complain it wasn't enough, so all the jabs he thought he was makinig at me about how the complaints were being handled, he was actually knocking the admins.

 

As for the editing of posts, I also told him that I would wait to see if the member involved appeared to care, either by official complaint or otherwise, and if not, I would edit the post to be more site PC, and wez wasn't the only one that I did this to. There were several members that had posts edited.

[wez]

Here's another quick point to be made. If you think we are somehow siding with wez and he is hindering this forum from growing any further, that's our burn now isn't it? It sure isn't yours and it's not a concern you should have.

.

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I would say that should be the point that should end all this unnecessary drama.

[timesjoke]

You mean the lack of fulfillment to what you think and end result should be.

 

No, I mean exactly what I said, lack of success, Wez is exactly the same now as he always was, he is even baiting me in this thread and on the shout box, but that does not count if someone does not complain right?

 

Fail? Your idea of failing is again, not getting an issue resolved in the way you personally think it should have been handled. Failure would be doing something like letting someone else dictate how we choose to operate.. ain't gonna happen.

 

Now wait a second, did you not just say that you would act if you got several complaints? Is that not others telling you how to operate?

 

To me mob rule is the worse kind of system where many can team up against one and have them removed. The better system in my opinion is to have moderators who watch what is happening and to act in the best interest of the site, not be led by mob rule.

 

 

If your not asking for a speed up, then how can you even try to make a claim of ineffectiveness? You have been given an option of your own choosing on how to deal with an individual whom you'd rather not hear from, you fail to do that, that is your own choosing, not mine or anyone elses. Don't give me any of that crap about how ineffective our protocol is, take it to your own damn forum.

 

So you call no change at all in Wez as a success?

 

Just trying to figure out where your comming from here.

 

We have done many other forums with lots of members, I highly doubt we need your advice or your guidance. You on the other hand, have been given the means to handle the situation,either ignore him, or shut up and put up, or leave. His "wezzings" have been documented for future reference and line him up for more severe punishment if his actions continue. Or would you rather we just say, "HEY WEZ, TJ AND A COUPLE OTHERS THINK YOUR A COMPLETE BAFOON, YOUR OUT"

 

Now answer me this, if we use the ignore function, and you refuse to take action on Wez's bad bahavoir without a complaint, how do we complain if we don't see it?

 

Your cure for the problem of Wez is the members must act like an ostrich?

 

Bury our heads in the sand and pretend Wez does not exist?

 

No need to give me stupid analogies, I am beyond that.

 

Beyond reason as it appears as well.

 

 

I look at it as an observation. If it hurts your feelings, then leave.

 

There is not one person in the world that can hurt my feelings over the internet. My point was that you have a mod who is taking things way beyond reasonable and him running off to a psychologist is all the proof anyone needs that he has lost his objectivity on this forum.

 

Anyone doing something that crazy needs help.

 

 

You obviously don't want to heed such advice either as you keep trying to rebut me in an argument you will in no way ever win.

 

Ah, but you need to ask yourself a question, is my motivation about winning?

 

Clearly if I was concerned with winning I would have given up a couple months ago when IWS first started getting testy with me. What I am doing now is exposing him and you for who you truly are.

 

 

IWS said it himself, this is not our forum, it is his. He does not understand that to make a forum successful, you must give the members the ability to "own" their forum.

 

 

Respect cannot be taken by force, it must be earned.

 

 

Here's another quick point to be made. If you think we are somehow siding with wez and he is hindering this forum from growing any further, that's our burn now isn't it? It sure isn't yours and it's not a concern you should have.

 

Why not?

 

You think people want to be members of a failed forum?

 

I want to debate, not sit around a ghost town and to debate, we need people, people who will vote with their feet when faced with someone like Wez.

 

 

Sorry if it weirded you out. It's not like I went out of my way to seek a professional opinion. I happened to be talking to her and after some past discussion with some of the other staff, wanted an opinion. I didn't say anything to sway or give my opinion, I just asked her to check out TJ's behavior and let me know what she thinks.

 

This may not be his true self, and just an online persona, I don't know.

 

I guess you could say that I was trying to find some form of validation that I wasn't the only one seeing what was going on with TJ, and wasn't being unfair with him as he claims.

 

So who picked out what posts for her to look at?

 

I have over 700 posts on this forum alone and some forums I have over 7,000 posts. Did she look at all of my posts to make her hasty decision or just a few posts. I contacted a real psychologist and asked her about this and she told me a professional psychologist would need weeks or even months to make any kind of determination of this kind based on something as limited as internet postings.

 

 

Nobody. She is a friend from my past that I ran into this weekend, as she was back in town. I really only see or talk to her once or twice a year.

 

And you wasted that limited time to go over my 700 posts with her? Right. Clearly you did go out of your way, your obsessed.

 

 

I'm sure being an admin or former admin, it is hard not knowing what is going on behind the scenes.

 

Yes it is, but more difficult is watching him never change his behavoir.

 

 

As for TJ, it had been requested several times that he use the ignore feature, he refused to use a simple solution and spent the last several months attacking me, about how I was handling the situation. He went out of his way to troll around the board, following wez, looking for reasons to report him and jumping in on things that didn't even relate to him. This is not only the exact opposite of the ignore feature, it's strangly obsessive.

 

I never chased him around, he ignored me and everythign was great but he decided he could not survive without the conflict so he unignored me and started chasing me. Even here in this thread he is making baited posts.

 

 

Wez made several attempts to reconcile and was begging for TJ's input on why the Panama video was nothing but propaganda.

 

I PM'd him asking him to one more time give wez a chance, and all he said was that wez was anti-military and anti-American and he will never going to be able to get past that. If he isn't even going to try, why should anyone else?

 

So now it is my fault for avoiding an arguement that I already knew was going to happen? First you say ignore him then you say keep trying to argue with him, make up your mind.

 

 

TJ twisted that around too. I told TJ that I was leaving his complaints about wez to the other staff as, it was clear that no matter what I did or didn't do, he would complain it wasn't enough, so all the jabs he thought he was makinig at me about how the complaints were being handled, he was actually knocking the admins.

 

All I ever said was there was no change in what Wez was doing and that what had already been done was not working, it makes no difference who was doing it, it was unsuccessful.

 

 

As for the editing of posts, I also told him that I would wait to see if the member involved appeared to care, either by official complaint or otherwise, and if not, I would edit the post to be more site PC, and wez wasn't the only one that I did this to. There were several members that had posts edited.

 

I saw you edit several of Wez's posts right after he made them, you did not wait to see if someone would complain, that was the reason for me to ask you if you gave warnings for what you deleted. You replied that you do not make it official if someone does not complain.

[wez]

Hahahahaha.. my existence is hazardous to your health? If "we" don't see it, how do we complain? Hahahahahahahahahaha...

 

 

Unless the staff ignore functions me too and lets me run amok, you don't need to worry about that TJ.

[wez]

Seems TJ is so concerned about this site, that he thinks the administration needs administrating. That's devotion.. or like IWS said.. obsession.

[DaMan]

I see 2 people complaining about 1 user. Now for the major problem with this dispute, vendetta or whatever you want to call it. It is disrupting the whole forum and flow of many of the topics.

 

What I have seen the same 2 people report posts and complain about the same person. What I also get is other members complaining about the actions of these 3 members. It isn't only Wez that is causing the problem. It is all 3 of these people. I knew this was happening, but, didn't think it was keeping other members away because every topic in which one was involved the other chimed in to make it an us vs. him.

 

This is hurting the site. Wez is not hurting the site. The combination of the 3 is hurting the site. When I see this I can only do what will benefit the site.

 

So here it is. If you have a problem with a user put them on ignore. If you feel staff should do this for you, by banning a person, it isn't going to happen. If you refuse to use the ignore feature then I will put all parties into moderation.

If that doesn't work then an outright ban will happen. I will not cowtow to strong arm tactics.

 

TJ you seem to think I have little experience with running a community. You are sorely mistaken. I've been running forums since 1995 when I opened my first. I started the very first visual basic programming forum in 1996. The first .net programming forum in 2000. Both are still online although I sold them in 2003. I am still admin on one of them.

GF was my first venture into an off topic community. This is my second. I have moderated a few and admit it is a different animal than any of the technical communities I admin or mod at. I look at what is good for the community as a whole. If that means taking extreme measures that might result in losing a member or 2, but, makes the environment much better for everyone else that is what I will do. I have been accused in the past as being heavy handed. That works well in a structured community. It does not work well on a site such as this. I have adapted my style to fit this type of community.

Now I am learning that maybe I should moderate this site as I do my others. So I will. You wanted it, you asked for it and now you'll get it. Keep in mind it might not be what you expected.

[timesjoke]

I see 2 people complaining about 1 user. Now for the major problem with this dispute, vendetta or whatever you want to call it. It is disrupting the whole forum and flow of many of the topics.

 

It should not matter who complains, I can tell you that most people who are bothered by things like this tend to just leave, especially with someplace new, they figure why deal with it, just move on.

 

I guess the question should be do you think spamming "I'm not you" is a valid debate style. If you think it is, fine, we all move on, but if you think that is kinda childish then so would other members trying to have a decent debate.

 

 

What I have seen the same 2 people report posts and complain about the same person. What I also get is other members complaining about the actions of these 3 members. It isn't only Wez that is causing the problem. It is all 3 of these people. I knew this was happening, but, didn't think it was keeping other members away because every topic in which one was involved the other chimed in to make it an us vs. him.

 

I agree that we were all most likely irritating many people, I know this and admit to it. In my defense I was "responding" to Wez 90% of the time, right now Wez has posted several baiting things against me in this thread and on the shoutbox, is that kind of harassment from him considered to be reasonable?

 

 

This is hurting the site. Wez is not hurting the site. The combination of the 3 is hurting the site. When I see this I can only do what will benefit the site.

 

All I have ever asked is to get Wez to back off me, anyone who looks back to when Wez put me on ignore, none of this was happening, but when he decided to unignore me, it all began again, clearly that shows where most of the problem was.

 

 

So here it is. If you have a problem with a user put them on ignore. If you feel staff should do this for you, by banning a person, it isn't going to happen. If you refuse to use the ignore feature then I will put all parties into moderation.

If that doesn't work then an outright ban will happen. I will not cowtow to strong arm tactics.

 

All anyone ever asked for was to deal with wez, while making members use the ignore feature can work for those members who want to stick around despite the mess caused by Wez, any new members will see his excessive personality and take off without taking the time to figure out how to ignore him.

 

I would tend to not use the ignore function because I have never been the type to believe pretending something does not exist helps anything or anyone in the long run, it tends to make matters worse in fact but I am considering it for the sake of keeping the peace between me and the staff.

 

 

TJ you seem to think I have little experience with running a community. You are sorely mistaken. I've been running forums since 1995 when I opened my first. I started the very first visual basic programming forum in 1996. The first .net programming forum in 2000. Both are still online although I sold them in 2003. I am still admin on one of them.

GF was my first venture into an off topic community. This is my second. I have moderated a few and admit it is a different animal than any of the technical communities I admin or mod at. I look at what is good for the community as a whole. If that means taking extreme measures that might result in losing a member or 2, but, makes the environment much better for everyone else that is what I will do. I have been accused in the past as being heavy handed. That works well in a structured community. It does not work well on a site such as this. I have adapted my style to fit this type of community.

Now I am learning that maybe I should moderate this site as I do my others. So I will. You wanted it, you asked for it and now you'll get it. Keep in mind it might not be what you expected.

 

Well I have moderated and admined both structured and unstructured sites and yes, there is a world of difference between the two to the point that there is no real comparison.

 

The more a group has to tie them together (common interests, common jobs, common beliefs, etc....) the easier it is for them to get along. By randomly grouping people together, your missing the moderating factor the structured comminity has.

 

In many ways, things can domino effect out of control much faster on these kinds of forums and they need much more moderating than the structured forums if their going to succeed.

 

 

I can promise you this, as long as the rules are clear, I will never complain about a strict but fair set of rules, that is the way I run my forums.

[eddo]

I can promise you this, as long as the rules are clear, I will never complain about a strict but fair set of rules, that is the way I run my forums.

 

I will add as long as they are equally enforced as well. Nothing wrong with strict, but when some get treated differently- then comes the issues.

 

And since I am apparently one of the "3" (even though I have mostly tried to stay out of this recent drama whore-fest,) I will add that I have done my fair share of ignoring, only to be prodded, baited, and sucked back in time after time. I do not blame the baiter for my getting sucked back in (as that is my own doing) but it sure would be hard to get baited if the baiting wasn't continually going on.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I will add as long as they are equally enforced as well. Nothing wrong with strict, but when some get treated differently- then comes the issues.

 

And since I am apparently one of the "3" (even though I have mostly tried to stay out of this recent drama whore-fest,) I will add that I have done my fair share of ignoring, only to be prodded, baited, and sucked back in time after time. I do not blame the baiter for my getting sucked back in (as that is my own doing) but it sure would be hard to get baited if the baiting wasn't continually going on.

 

I imagine I'm one of the three also, and that's fine. I just want to say that I joined GF in 2004 (I believe it was 2004... maybe earlier, I just don't remember the date) and have very much enjoyed the way you Cloaked, and Bender handle yourselves and your site. I remember some of the dealings with trolls on that site and I guess I half expected the same thing on this one when it came to 'troll-like' members. I have tried to stay out of this last bit of fighting as I don't really like to stir up crap if I don't have to. I just hope that this site continues to grow and prospers. I have had some pretty heated debates on your sites, and I enjoy myself here. I hope that this thing just keeps getting better. Seriously.

 

.

 

.

 

RegisteredAndEducated a.k.a. BrotherMan

[timesjoke]

I will add as long as they are equally enforced as well. Nothing wrong with strict, but when some get treated differently- then comes the issues.

 

True, when you already have a mod who has it out for you, any rule structure becomes meaningless.

 

I still cannot get over his need to go find a psychologist to help him justify his actions. The psychologist I spoke with said IWS is either telling lies or the person he spoke with is the most unprofessional psychologist she has ever heard of to the point that in Florida, they could get in serious trouble.

 

 

Who goes to see a friend they only see twice a year and waste that time on someone from the internet they don't even know?

 

 

And since I am apparently one of the "3" (even though I have mostly tried to stay out of this recent drama whore-fest,) I will add that I have done my fair share of ignoring, only to be prodded, baited, and sucked back in time after time. I do not blame the baiter for my getting sucked back in (as that is my own doing) but it sure would be hard to get baited if the baiting wasn't continually going on.

 

Ah, but remember, MrsK came here "after" Wez slamed her first but she was the one who got ten infraction points for it.

 

As I said earlier, this is like football, the guy who threw the first punch is never seen and the guy responding is the one they punnish.

 

 

For the record I would ask that if the hammer is to fall to please not blame eddo for what I have done. Once I saw that IWS went so far off the deep end to go find a psychologist and selectively show her limited posts to get a bullcrud diagnosis against me just to attack me, I knew the writing on the wall was for my removal.

 

At this point I am only trying to make someone see that all of this was avoidable with a little moderating with the idea of prevention.

 

I like old sayings and I get the feeling I won't be allowed to post many more so here goes an old saying that fits this situation so well you might think it was some kind of destiny:

 

 

An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure

[DaMan]

To put an end to this. I am drafting a set of guidelines. These will be reviewed and revised by myself, Bender and IWS. Once complete they will be posted and put in effect. These guidelines will be followed to the letter by us in dealing with members. They will be applied across the board and no one will be above them.

 

In cases where 2 or more members continually are at each other causing the disruption of the threads all members involved could be moderated or banned. I will not look at who started the fight. We are all intelligent enough to know when to back away. If it is clear that one person is continually attacking another or if it is clear that one person is causing the problem they alone will be moderated or removed.

 

It is a shame this has come to this. I dislike many people on other communities. If I engage in threads in which they participate and if they try to incite me to stoop to their level I ignore them. It takes a bigger person to walk away then to put oneself in harms way by engaging the person.

 

These guidelines will help those that can't back away. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

 

And with that I am closing this thread. No need to further beat a dead horse.