Was Judas A Traitor Or An Unfailing Follower Of Christ?

[snafu]

lol, Snafu. I'm not worried about it at all- ultimately it is between God and Judas. But it's fun to discuss these things.

 

 

 

 

 

Each of these definition shows that forgiveness occurs after the deed. Am I missing something here?

 

Yeah he was Jesus Christ. He knew it was gonna happen.

[eddo]

Yeah he was Jesus Christ. He knew it was gonna happen.

 

But Judas could have chosen to not do it. Even with Jesus I don't think you can seek forgiveness sand then go do the deed you sought forgiveness for. My argument here isn't about the greatness of Jesus and His omnipotence, it is about the attitude of the man involved (in this case- Judas.) The sincerity of our attitudes play a major role in our dealings with God.

 

The Bible tells us that Judas felt remorseful about turning Jesus over tot he Romans (after he did it) but it never tells us that he sought any kind of forgiveness for his deeds.

 

 

For Instance- Snafu comes over to my house. I say "Welcome Snafu! Please forgive me for I'm about to slap you across the face!"

 

You say "ok" and I slap you.

 

then I say "Hey, that was nice. Snafu, please forgive me, for I am about to slap you across the face again!"

 

You say "ok" and I slap you again.

 

After a few minutes of this, will you think the sincerity of my pre-offense apologies are sincere? or will you think I am using it as a cop out to go through with the offending deed anyway?

[ImWithStupid]

It all depends upon whether you believe the jesus tale.

 

Personally I dont. No offence meant, to any who do.

 

But consider this, why was Jesus not written about in his own time ? I have read that mention of the guy is first made a few centuries after his supposed death. Is this likely ?

 

Actually there were many "writings" of Jesus and even the first Gospel was written based on the teachings of the decipal Matthew around 30 years after the death of Christ.

 

So why you may ask was this phoney visionary Jesus invented ?

 

It was ,I have read an attempt by a Roman Emperor to stabilise the people at a time of great social unrest. It slowly brought them together. Over time people stopped fighting over their idol gods, and became a mono theist people.

 

And of course, with Apolonius safely dead already, he could never challenge the authority of Rome or the Emperor. Who presumably, became someone of importance in the new religion

 

This makes no sense. The Romans never had a problem with their conquered lands keeping their own religion as long as they didn't threaten Rome and the Hebrews were allowd to do so. To purposely introduce a new religion to the region would cause more unrest not less.

[ImWithStupid]

But Judas could have chosen to not do it. Even with Jesus I don't think you can seek forgiveness sand then go do the deed you sought forgiveness for. My argument here isn't about the greatness of Jesus and His omnipotence, it is about the attitude of the man involved (in this case- Judas.) The sincerity of our attitudes play a major role in our dealings with God.

 

The Bible tells us that Judas felt remorseful about turning Jesus over tot he Romans (after he did it) but it never tells us that he sought any kind of forgiveness for his deeds.

 

Who was he going to seek forgiveness from? Jesus was taken away.

[snafu]

But Judas could have chosen to not do it. Even with Jesus I don't think you can seek forgiveness sand then go do the deed you sought forgiveness for. My argument here isn't about the greatness of Jesus and His omnipotence, it is about the attitude of the man involved (in this case- Judas.) The sincerity of our attitudes play a major role in our dealings with God.

 

The Bible tells us that Judas felt remorseful about turning Jesus over tot he Romans (after he did it) but it never tells us that he sought any kind of forgiveness for his deeds.

 

 

For Instance- Snafu comes over to my house. I say "Welcome Snafu! Please forgive me for I'm about to slap you across the face!"

 

You say "ok" and I slap you.

 

then I say "Hey, that was nice. Snafu, please forgive me, for I am about to slap you across the face again!"

 

You say "ok" and I slap you again.

 

After a few minutes of this, will you think the sincerity of my pre-offense apologies are sincere? or will you think I am using it as a cop out to go through with the offending deed anyway?

 

What? That makes no sense. Jesus new Judas was going to nark him out. He told him to go and do his deed. Jesus, the same one that walks on water, new he was going to be forsaken. In his preaching he teaches forgiveness. Now if he new what Judas was about to do wouldn't it stand to reason that he already forgave him before Judas acted upon his betrayal?

 

PS: slap me again and I'm gonna punch you.

[eddo]

Who was he going to seek forgiveness from? Jesus was taken away.

 

Good question, and probably what led to his suicide- I'm guessing that he didn't think he had any other alternative.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Actually there were many "writings" of Jesus and even the first Gospel was written based on the teachings of the decipal Matthew around 30 years after the death of Christ.

 

Hmnn thats not what I have read at the site about Apolonius.

 

 

 

This makes no sense. The Romans never had a problem with their conquered lands keeping their own religion as long as they didn't threaten Rome and the Hebrews were allowd to do so. To purposely introduce a new religion to the region would cause more unrest not less.

 

Not the conquered lands, Rome itself, according to the site about Appolonius

[ImWithStupid]

Not the conquered lands, Rome itself, according to the site about Appolonius

 

Allowing these lands to keep hold of their own religions was one of the ways that they kept stability with the people there. It wasn't until after Constantine converted the Romans to Christianity that they became intollerant of other religions.

[eddo]

What? That makes no sense. Jesus new Judas was going to nark him out. He told him to go and do his deed. Jesus, the same one that walks on water, new he was going to be forsaken. In his preaching he teaches forgiveness. Now if he new what Judas was about to do wouldn't it stand to reason that he already forgave him before Judas acted upon his betrayal?

 

PS: slap me again and I'm gonna punch you.

 

I don't read Jesus telling Judas "What you are about to do, do quickly," (or translated better in the Amplified version as: Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do more swiftly than you seem to intend and make quick work of it) as Jesus giving permission or even offering forgiveness for the betrayal, I read it as Jesus knowing what was going to happen and Him telling Judas to get on with it already.

 

But even so, how could Judas seek forgiveness for something the hadn't done yet, and be sincere about it? Jesus doesn't force His forgiveness on people, He offers it, but you have to ask.

[wez]

I didn't judge the severity of their sin, just compared the severity of the earthly consequences of those sins. In fact, I even said that what Peter did was wrong as well.

 

You did.. snaf asked wouldn't that make Peter as much a traitor, and you said no, basically. You seemed to think Judas was a greater sinner than Peter because of those Earthly consequences. I could be wrong but that's how I saw it..

 

 

 

Wow, that sounds great. It also sounds extraordinarily wrong. What wrong deed do you ask forgiveness for BEFORE you do it? And if your seeking of forgiveness at that point is genuine, why would you still go through with the offending wrong deed?

 

Asking for forgiveness before you do something is, in my opinion, a slap in the face to Jesus and his sacrifice. It's like saying "I know you are gonna forgive me anyway, so I'm gonna go ahead and kill this person."

 

That is totally the wrong attitude towards forgiveness.

 

Forgiveness is there, and available to all- but to accept the gift of that forgiveness you have to be sincere in seeking it. You can't be sincere about forgiveness if you then follow through with the wrong deed.

 

 

You got it backwards.. One doesn't need to ask for forgiveness from anyone but themselves... One GIVES forgiveness to everyone for anything and everything.. Then they will be forgiven, according to Jesus. It's something one gives... all or nothing.

 

 

"The measure you give is the measure you receive".. One cannot get forgiveness if one does not give forgiveness.

 

 

All those who seek it, sincerely or not, will not find it.. Everyone wants to be forgiven, but not everyone is capable or willing to forgive.. One can only control themselves, not others.

 

 

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ~ Jesus (NASB) Matt. 7:13-14

 

 

And that's how those who find it, give it to others before a deed is done. Not ask for it for themselves before a deed is done so they can kill someone anyways..

 

Make sense eddo? I could try again..

[eddo]

You did.. snaf asked wouldn't that make Peter as much a traitor, and you said no, basically. You seemed to think Judas was a greater sinner than Peter because of those Earthly consequences. I could be wrong but that's how I saw it..

 

Well, that wasn't my intention.

 

 

 

 

 

You got it backwards.. One doesn't need to ask for forgiveness from anyone but themselves... One GIVES forgiveness to everyone for anything and everything.. Then they will be forgiven, according to Jesus. It's something one gives... all or nothing.

 

 

"The measure you give is the measure you receive".. One cannot get forgiveness if one does not give forgiveness.

 

 

All those who seek it, sincerely or not, will not find it.. Everyone wants to be forgiven, but not everyone is capable or willing to forgive.. One can only control themselves, not others.

 

 

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ~ Jesus (NASB) Matt. 7:13-14

 

 

And that's how those who find it, give it to others before a deed is done. Not ask for it for themselves before a deed is done so they can kill someone anyways..

 

Make sense eddo? I could try again..

 

We aren't talking about anyone giving forgiveness, except Jesus, so I am having a bit of a hard time understanding what you are getting at. Are you trying to make this about someone other than Jesus? Are you trying to make some broad point here? Your Bible quotes are cool, and right, but they don't seem relevant to the discussion of Judas.

 

"The measure you give is the measure you receive".. One cannot get forgiveness if one does not give forgiveness.

This is completely accurate. Do we know if Judas forgave others or not? I don't. Is that your point?

 

And that's how those who find it, give it to others before a deed is done. Not ask for it for themselves before a deed is done so they can kill someone anyways..

I completely understand that we should be forgiving of others, wez. But that doesn't seem to answer my question:

How can you forgive someone for something they haven't done yet? I understand loving them, and that love continuing through the wrong deed, but how can you "grant pardon for or remission of an offense" if that offense hasn't happened yet?

 

Maybe our basic foundations are different, and that's why we don't agree. Cause really, I am not at all grasping that.

 

here's a little bit of what I believe (to hopefully help clear this up some):

Jesus came to this earth to die for all of us, because we are all sinners. God, because of the original covenant made with Abraham (and the abuse by the religious leaders of the Old Testament Law,) needed a clean blood sacrifice in order to cleanse the people of their sins (read: "grant pardon of our offenses" or "forgive us.")

Instead of making us all pay that price, Jesus came and paid it for all of us- as a gift. But we have to accept that gift. Jesus offers it to all, but we have to accept it- and we accept it by asking Him to cleanse us from our sins (read: "grant pardon of our offenses" or "forgive us.")

 

The forgiveness is there, for all of us, if we sincerely ask for it. (God doesn't force Himself on anyone- it is their own choice to accept it or not.) If we aren't sincere, then our request wasn't sincere, then our sins have not been cleaned. However, once we are cleansed, God wipes our slate clean, and we get a fresh start.

 

But since we are all sinners, we will screw up again. that original request didn't cover or cleanse sins that we haven't yet committed. We have to ask again- and same as before- if we are sincere in our request, they too can be cleansed.

 

If we continue screwing up in the same way, over and over, then our original request for forgiveness of that particular screw up wasn't very sincere- because if it was, then we wouldn't keep doing it.

 

The sincerity of our request is of major importance here, and if we haven't screwed up yet, or know we are going to go make choices that are wrong, I just don't see how we can think we are being sincere in requesting that those offenses are pardoned.

 

So, my point with all that is: Jesus offered Judas forgiveness for betraying Him, but Judas had to ask in order to accept it. He may have done so, but we don't have a record of it in the Bible. But in order to ask forgiveness for the specific act of betrayal, Judas would have had to ask for it specifically, and it would have had to be done AFTER he betrayed Jesus.

[snafu]

eddo eddo eddo... you just said it...

The forgiveness is there, for all of us, if we sincerely ask for it...

 

So my sons kids who aren't even born yet are forgiven for the sins they even haven't had a chance to commit.

[wez]

We aren't talking about anyone giving forgiveness, except Jesus, so I am having a bit of a hard time understanding what you are getting at. Are you trying to make this about someone other than Jesus? Are you trying to make some broad point here? Your Bible quotes are cool, and right, but they don't seem relevant to the discussion of Judas.

 

 

This is completely accurate. Do we know if Judas forgave others or not? I don't. Is that your point?

 

 

I completely understand that we should be forgiving of others, wez. But that doesn't seem to answer my question:

How can you forgive someone for something they haven't done yet? I understand loving them, and that love continuing through the wrong deed, but how can you "grant pardon for or remission of an offense" if that offense hasn't happened yet?

 

Maybe our basic foundations are different, and that's why we don't agree. Cause really, I am not at all grasping that.

 

here's a little bit of what I believe (to hopefully help clear this up some):

Jesus came to this earth to die for all of us, because we are all sinners. God, because of the original covenant made with Abraham (and the abuse by the religious leaders of the Old Testament Law,) needed a clean blood sacrifice in order to cleanse the people of their sins (read: "grant pardon of our offenses" or "forgive us.")

Instead of making us all pay that price, Jesus came and paid it for all of us- as a gift. But we have to accept that gift. Jesus offers it to all, but we have to accept it- and we accept it by asking Him to cleanse us from our sins (read: "grant pardon of our offenses" or "forgive us.")

 

The forgiveness is there, for all of us, if we sincerely ask for it. (God doesn't force Himself on anyone- it is their own choice to accept it or not.) If we aren't sincere, then our request wasn't sincere, then our sins have not been cleaned. However, once we are cleansed, God wipes our slate clean, and we get a fresh start.

 

But since we are all sinners, we will screw up again. that original request didn't cover or cleanse sins that we haven't yet committed. We have to ask again- and same as before- if we are sincere in our request, they too can be cleansed.

 

If we continue screwing up in the same way, over and over, then our original request for forgiveness of that particular screw up wasn't very sincere- because if it was, then we wouldn't keep doing it.

 

The sincerity of our request is of major importance here, and if we haven't screwed up yet, or know we are going to go make choices that are wrong, I just don't see how we can think we are being sincere in requesting that those offenses are pardoned.

 

So, my point with all that is: Jesus offered Judas forgiveness for betraying Him, but Judas had to ask in order to accept it. He may have done so, but we don't have a record of it in the Bible. But in order to ask forgiveness for the specific act of betrayal, Judas would have had to ask for it specifically, and it would have had to be done AFTER he betrayed Jesus.

 

 

 

That's just it.. Jesus was talking about everyone GIVING forgiveness. That is all we as individuals are capable of.. Giving it. Whether someone else wants to give it to you or not is not the concern. Don't look at it from the getting.. but rather the giving of it. It is not there just for the asking. Some people will never forgive you no matter what. That is their problem, not yours. The request is not what's important.. Getting forgiveness is in your hands, not the hands of Jesus.. Jesus told us how to be forgiven. Give it fully to others, even before a deed is done.

 

All we can do is give.. that is all we are in control of.. And it is an all or nothing deal. There is no picking and choosing as to who or what one will forgive. One must give it fully and completely if they are to receive it.. There is no other way. Why should I/Jesus/anyone forgive you, if you do not forgive everyone? Like you said.. sin, is sin, is sin.. Give to receive. It's all in the giving, not the getting.. Jesus may forgive those who do not forgive, but no matter how sincere they are in the asking, the measure the give is the measure they will get.. Their choice.. Free will. Not the choice of Jesus..

[ImWithStupid]

That's just it.. Jesus was talking about everyone GIVING forgiveness. That is all we as individuals are capable of.. Giving it. Whether someone else wants to give it to you or not is not the concern. Don't look at it from the getting.. but rather the giving of it. It is not there just for the asking. Some people will never forgive you no matter what. That is their problem, not yours. The request is not what's important.. Getting forgiveness is in your hands, not the hands of Jesus.. Jesus told us how to be forgiven. Give it fully to others, even before a deed is done.

 

All we can do is give.. that is all we are in control of.. And it is an all or nothing deal. There is no picking and choosing as to who or what one will forgive. One must give it fully and completely if they are to receive it.. There is no other way.

 

You're right that the only thing we can "control", is whether we forgive.

 

That doesn't, though, mean that we can't ask to be forgiven or ask that someone forgive another.

 

"Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34)

[wez]

You're right that the only thing we can "control", is whether we forgive.

 

That doesn't, though, mean that we can't ask to be forgiven or ask that someone forgive another.

 

 

That's right.. Jesus forgave those who murdered him before they actually did it. Jesus forgave everyone for everything. And prayed for them.. He set the example for us. But their fate was in their own hands. Jesus fully gave his forgiveness to them because he understood that is the only way. Even though Jesus forgave them, they will receive the measure they gave, according to Jesus.

 

 

It is not there just for the asking.. Jesus gave forgiveness without being asked.. So that others may also forgive in his example. He didn't ask to be forgiven.. He didn't ask to get forgiveness for Himself.. He gave forgiveness. The giving is all that matters.. not the getting. Give it, and the rest will take care of itself.

 

Like he said.. "They know not what they do".. And what they did, they did to themselves.

[eddo]

So my sons kids who aren't even born yet are forgiven for the sins they even haven't had a chance to commit.

 

Sorry Snafu, but no. that's wrong. The opportunity for them to be forgiven is most definitely there, but the forgiveness isn't their until they ask for it.

[wez]

Sorry Snafu, but no. that's wrong. The opportunity for them to be forgiven is most definitely there, but the forgiveness isn't their until they ask for it.

 

The forgiveness isn't there until they fully give it. Sincerity lies in the giving.. not the asking and getting. If you think someone needs to ask you for your forgiveness to get it from you, that is not sincere. One gives it without being asked, always, for everything. Just like Jesus. Then and only then will they receive it.. It's all up to us, not Jesus.

 

 

 

If it was as easy as you claim and would like to believe, this would be the opposite..

 

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ~ Jesus (NASB) Matt. 7:13-14

 

 

Easy to ask for it.. not as easy to give it.. which is the only way to find the narrow gate.

 

Not forgiving someone hurts you, not them.. Jesus understood this. It's all in the giving, not the getting.

 

Plus, it is your view where people think, "no matter what I do, all I have to do is ask and I will be forgiven, may as well keep sinning even though I know it's wrong"...

 

Everyone is sincere in the asking of forgiveness for themselves.. not so sincere in the giving of forgiveness to others, which is all that matters. Follow the example of Jesus. That is what He wanted.

[eddo]

The forgiveness isn't there until they fully give it. Sincerity lies in the giving.. not the asking and getting. If you think someone needs to ask you for your forgiveness to get it from you, that is not sincere. One gives it without being asked, always, for everything. Just like Jesus. Then and only then will they receive it.. It's all up to us, not Jesus.

 

 

 

If it was as easy as you claim and would like to believe, this would be the opposite..

 

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ~ Jesus (NASB) Matt. 7:13-14

 

 

Easy to ask for it.. not as easy to give it.. which is the only way to find the narrow gate.

 

Not forgiving someone hurts you, not them.. Jesus understood this. It's all in the giving, not the getting.

 

You are taking a whole lot of liberties with the scripture- meaning you are reading a lot in there that isn't there.

 

It is as easy as I say- to receive forgiveness from God, that is. People, however, not so much- but like you said- we should forgive others first.

 

But to grow in your relationship with God- that is where the "in the measure in which you gave, it will be given to you" comes in.

[wez]

You are taking a whole lot of liberties with the scripture- meaning you are reading a lot in there that isn't there.

 

It is as easy as I say- to receive forgiveness from God, that is. People, however, not so much- but like you said- we should forgive others first.

 

But to grow in your relationship with God- that is where the "in the measure in which you gave, it will be given to you" comes in.

 

 

What liberties? Can one find the gate without forgiveness of their sins?

 

How does one get forgiveness? Asking for it sincerely will not mean you get it. Everyone sincerely wants forgiveness for themselves.. But few will find the gate that leads to life. To get it, you must give it sincerely, just like Jesus did. That is how I see it.

 

Think of this.. we've all held on to a grudge.. does that make your soul feel good or breed hate and anger? That should tell you something.. and help you know I am right. Not forgiving hurts you, not the person you refuse to forgive. They don't need your forgiveness, you do.

[eddo]

How does one get forgiveness? Asking for it sincerely will not mean you get it. Everyone sincerely wants forgiveness for themselves.. But few will find the gate that leads to life.

This is wrong. If you sincerely ask God to forgive you, He will. remember, I'm referring to God, not man. I think you are talking about man, while I am talking about God.

 

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross."

-Colossians 2:13-14

 

"If we confess our sins' date=' he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."[/b']

-1 John 1:9

 

"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

-Hebrews 10:17

 

Daniel 9:9 says, "The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."

 

 

 

 

 

Not forgiving hurts you, not the person you refuse to forgive. They don't need your forgiveness, you do.

 

I don't disagree with this, and I'm not sure why you think I did.

[wez]

This is wrong. If you sincerely ask God to forgive you, He will. remember, I'm referring to God, not man. I think you are talking about man, while I am talking about God.

 

 

I'm not talking about man other than the example Jesus set for us. It is His words I listen to, and trust. Not those who have twisted his teachings to serve themselves and men in their Earthly life by making them think they will be forgiven just for the asking.. They will be forgiven for the giving, not the asking, sincerely.

 

 

Eddo

I don't disagree with this, and I'm not sure why you think I did.

 

That should tell you I am right.

[snafu]

eddo I forgive you if you ever insult me. There you got forgiveness before it happened.

[wez]

eddo I forgive you if you ever insult me. There you got forgiveness before it happened.

 

 

You got it Snafola..

 

Ditto for me eddo, as well as anything and everything else you may do in the future.

[ImWithStupid]

You got it Snafola..

 

Ditto for me eddo, as well as anything and everything else you may do in the future.

 

Screw all three of you.

[snafu]

Screw all three of you.

 

I forgive you for that comment.