Minnesota High School Cancels "Heros Tour".

[wez]

That section of scripture doesn't back up your definition at all. Jesus didn't say that judging = hypocrisy. He said that those that were more worried about pointing the sin in someone else's life, as opposed to checking the sin in their own life, was a hypocrite- and that fits perfectly with Webster's definition. ie: "You get rid of sin in your own life, but I am gonna keep on sinning."

Now He did tell us not to judge, and that if we did, we would be judged in the same manner- but He doesn't equate that to hypocrisy.

 

In other words, according to Jesus and Webster:

The act of judging another's actions as wrong, if you are doing the same thing, is hypocrisy- as you are acting opposite to your stated beliefs or feelings.

 

But hypocrisy does not necessarily involve judging someone else. Your definition of the word itself is wrong, and I think that is causing a misrepresentation of your point (and thus causing you to misunderstand other's points.)

 

 

 

Think of it this way: You are taking care of an 80 year old man, and the chart says to give him 30cc's of Penicillin every 2 hours. Your understanding of what the word "Penicillin" is had better match whomever wrote the chart, or you are gonna have some issues. Same with the word "30cc's" and "2 hours".

 

Your point about the school isn't invalid, but your definition of the word "hypocrisy" is. Not because I say so, but because the accepted word expert- the dictionary- says so.

 

 

 

I'll trust Jesus's definition.. Hypocrisy most certainly involves judging another. No judging = no hypocrisy.

 

Your right though, judging doesn't = hypocrisy.. judging, labeling, and looking down on another and condemning them for what the accuser in fact, is. = Hypocrisy. I think Jesus would agree..

 

What do you see wrong with that definition? All the parts of hypocrisy are present.. Put it in your words for me.. Webster is a dumbass.

 

 

7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

 

7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

 

7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

 

7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

 

Like you said.. one can't take one part without looking at the others.. Seems to me judging is the main ingredient..

[ImWithStupid]

So we all agree that if the school won't allow one possible political view to be spoken in the school, they shouldn't allow another one either, correct?

 

If so, who really cares about the definition of a "hypocrite"? Move on.

[wez]

So we all agree that if the school won't allow one possible political view to be spoken in the school, they shouldn't allow another one either, correct?

 

If so, who really cares about the definition of a "hypocrite"? Move on.

 

 

I care and eddo cared.. but good point.. we do all agree..

 

Not about political points of view, but about groups representing political agenda's is the way I see it.. No problem with a hero's tour movie.. sure that wouldn't have raised any eyebrows.

[wez]

Nick Coleman: A political agenda hid behind a talk with heroes

Tuesday's cancellation of a visit to Forest Lake High School by Iraq War veterans in a giant bus labeled "Vets For Freedom National Heroes Tour" produced a bonanza of outraged media reports.

 

By NICK COLEMAN, Star Tribune

 

Last update: March 27, 2008 - 2:52 PM

 

 

 

Tuesday's cancellation of a visit to Forest Lake High School by Iraq War veterans in a giant bus labeled "Vets For Freedom National Heroes Tour" produced a bonanza of outraged media reports:

 

"Heroes banned by School! Minnesota hates the Heroes!"

 

Or maybe a Minnesota school was just trying to keep its students from becoming pawns in a political game.

 

There would not have been much outrage if that big bus, instead of saying "Heroes Tour," had been painted to say "Republican Tour to Shore Up the Pro-War Vote." But that would have been an honest paint job.

 

And it would have made clear why Forest Lake Principal Steve Massey -- now vilified by right wing radio and TV -- did what he did.

 

Massey and Forest Lake -- a patriotic small town with a Fourth of July parade where spectators stand and doff their hats and put their right hands over their hearts every single time an American flag goes by -- are getting a bum rap.

 

The visit to Forest Lake was worked out by Massey and Forest Lake alum Pete Hegseth, an Iraq veteran who heads Vets for Freedom. VFF says it is nonpartisan, but the liberal watchdog group the Center for Media and Democracy said it began as a Republican front group managed by White House insiders.

 

Their plan? According to the Center for Media and Democracy, the plan is to drum up support for the war. The group's political bent was clear last year when it bought TV ads to thank Sen. Norm Coleman, R-Minn., for supporting the war.

 

Hey, folks: It's an election year. Things may get ugly. They sure were in Forest Lake.

 

Permit me to say something: Vets for Freedom are real vets, their heroics are authentic (but not all heroes support the war) and their right to their opinion is unquestioned.

 

But uniforms and valor should not hide a political agenda. On that, they must be questioned. Even in a school. Especially in a school.

 

The veterans' visit was planned as a low-key classroom discussion about patriotism and service to country. Massey said school officials were aware that Vets for Freedom has a political agenda, but the visit was planned as a non-political classroom discussion. Then Massey says Hegseth's group decided to call a press conference at the school and alerted media. That caught the eye of anti-war activists, including veterans of Iraq who oppose the war. They called their own press conference and rally.

 

A social studies discussion was turning into a street fight.

 

"We had been excited about the vets coming," Massey says. "Then, lo and behold, they schedule a news conference on our campus. Time out. We had to step back in a context of (worrying about) safety. The last thing we wanted was a political presentation. We had the makings of a disruption."

 

Massey had little choice. He called off the visit, forcing the "Heroes" to move to a Legion club and opening the gates to a flood of misleading propaganda about a hero "snubbed" by his Alma Mater and vets turned away by cowards.

 

Massey has received 1,200 e-mails and 250 phone calls from people -- many far from Minnesota -- calling him a coward, a Communist or a spineless America Hater. You're getting a free history lesson, kids. Google "Dissent in America."

 

Most of the angry calls were generated by right-wing talkers who used the Forest Lake story to whip up manufactured outrage and reinforce the effort to keep Americans who support the Iraq War from abandoning ship and joining the large majority of Americans who don't think the war is worth more lives.

 

But all of the abuse hurled at little Forest Lake is nonsense.

 

"Our school employs many incredible veterans," Massey says. "We celebrate them and hold them up as role models and heroes. So to criticize our school as unpatriotic..."

 

I'll finish his sentence: It's ridiculous; it's demagoguery.

 

"You pay a high price to stand up and do the right thing," says Massey, who met with the VFW and American Legion commanders on Wednesday to try to repair some of the damage.

 

The Forest Lake fight turns out to be more than you could handle in a one-day discussion in Social Studies.

 

What is a hero? What is patriotism? What if you oppose a war supported by the public? Or want to fight one opposed by most people? Can a patriot be against the war? Why not? Are most Americans un-American?

 

Maybe it's un-American to say so. But I think high school kids should discuss all of this.

 

After all, they may soon be in Iraq, or Iran, themselves. But if they hear from Vets for Freedom, they should hear from Iraq Veterans Against the War, too. Or see "Body of War," a documentary about a soldier named Tomas Young who volunteered after 9/11 and was paralyzed in Iraq.

 

"Many of us volunteered with patriotic feelings in our heart," he says. Until he was "sent into the wrong country," to fight in Iraq, not Afghanistan.

 

Forest Lake shows how badly we need to talk about this war. And how very hard it is to do.

 

Nick Coleman ncoleman@startribune.com

 

Continue to next page

[wez]

Whoops.. repeated. Had it all up there.. 2 sides to every story..

 

 

 

Not cool to use kids as pawns, IMO.

[ImWithStupid]

Not cool to use kids as pawns, IMO.

 

I agree, but be consistant.

[wez]

I agree, but be consistant.

 

Totally agree... I think the principle did the exact right thing by canceling this event for the good of his school.

[snafu]

I don't believe it was political. It's about being patriotic. It's about letting American children know that we aren't the big tyrant beast that some would like them to believe. It lets them know that we are making a difference out there.

[snafu]

I can't help it if Democrats are against America.

[wez]

I can't help it if Democrats are against America.

 

 

Just because someone doesn't agree with the war, or any war for that matter, doesn't mean they are against America.

 

Live by the sword, die by the sword ~ Jesus

 

Real Americans and real Christians don't believe in killing anyone for any reason. Perhaps it's the Republicans who hate America and are determined to take everyone down with them rather than admit they made a mistake?

 

Real Americans also don't deceive their impressionable young people into thinking strapping on a gun and killing any person some old white men tell you to kill will make you a hero. Sounds like our "enemy", doesn't it? Get a college education and 17 Virgins! Uncle Sam wants you! How odd... Real Americans aint hypocrites, I know that for sure.

[snafu]

Real Americans protect our freedom.

[Guest schoolmom]

As a teacher I can tell you that it doesn't take much for schools to change something. Many times all it takes is one or two parent/community member complaints and it is changed. Schools have gotten to have to cater to over-protective, medeling parents. Criticisms of schools run far and wide and the problem is schools can't make everyone happy and if they don't everybody comes to the conclusion that the school is bad.

 

Just like you just did.

[snafu]

As a teacher I can tell you that it doesn't take much for schools to change something. Many times all it takes is one or two parent/community member complaints and it is changed. Schools have gotten to have to cater to over-protective, medeling parents. Criticisms of schools run far and wide and the problem is schools can't make everyone happy and if they don't everybody comes to the conclusion that the school is bad.

 

Just like you just did.

 

 

Yeah that's it in nut shell. You can't please everybody. And in this politically correct world we gotta try.

[wez]

Real Americans protect our freedom.

 

I agree.. real Americans also don't strip those feedoms from a position of "power" from the very people who's freedoms they are claiming to protect. Maybe a closer look at who our freedoms need protecting from is in order. Sounds like extortion to me..

[wez]

As a teacher I can tell you that it doesn't take much for schools to change something. Many times all it takes is one or two parent/community member complaints and it is changed. Schools have gotten to have to cater to over-protective, medeling parents. Criticisms of schools run far and wide and the problem is schools can't make everyone happy and if they don't everybody comes to the conclusion that the school is bad.

 

Just like you just did.

 

 

Well said.. The school did the right thing. It was turning into a "street fight" before it even happened. Bad sign. I applaud the principle.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I think I understand that word quite well.. Not a riddle. You just wish I didn't..

 

I think it's well known what age group the armed services looks to recruit.. last I checked, Al wasn't building an army and recruiting people like the KKK.. or the armed services. I have a feeling that was the issue, but like I said, I don't know.. Just my guess. Why a high school? Why not a community center for all ages?

 

If the military wanted to recruit, wouldn't they just setup a table in the hallways at the school? They did it when I was in school.... This seems like a horrible reason to stop vets from coming to a school.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I agree, but be consistant.

 

Totally agree... I think the principle did the exact right thing by canceling this event for the good of his school.

 

Then you must also agree that every teacher that voices their political opinion in the classroom should be fired... That's not very friendly toward teachers. But you must be consistant, or you're a hypocrite.

[Old Salt]

Then you must also agree that every teacher that voices their political opinion in the classroom should be fired... That's not very friendly toward teachers. But you must be consistant, or you're a hypocrite.

The classroom is a place to learn facts, not opinions. Young people, with limited life experience, are too easily molded. Teachers are free to express their political views almost anyplace they want, but I don't think their classroom with a captive audience is that place. Maybe they should sponsor a Young Democrats or Young Republicans club as an extra-curricular activity if they want to influence their students.

[snafu]

The classroom is a place to learn facts, not opinions. Young people, with limited life experience, are too easily molded. Teachers are free to express their political views almost anyplace they want, but I don't think their classroom with a captive audience is that place. Maybe they should sponsor a Young Democrats or Young Republicans club as an extra-curricular activity if they want to influence their students.

 

That sounds good in theory but like BroMan was pointing out that doesn?t happen. Teachers consistently push there politics on the kids. And it's pretty hard to catch and stop.

[Old Salt]

That sounds good in theory but like BroMan was pointing out that doesn?t happen. Teachers consistently push there politics on the kids. And it's pretty hard to catch and stop.

I know.

 

This message was too short so I'm just writing now to fill space.

[wez]

Then you must also agree that every teacher that voices their political opinion in the classroom should be fired... That's not very friendly toward teachers. But you must be consistant, or you're a hypocrite.

 

 

They have the right to fire any teacher they want as far as I'm concerned.. This event was causing a disturbance before it even began. I have no problem with the veterens being allowed to speak..Appears you have a problem with teachers? How long would a teacher last if they were calling a news conference on school grounds and instigating a "street fight"? Not long I reckon..

 

 

 

By the way, I thought you didn't like me? You wanna start some arguments over Everlast videos and this weeks after the fact? Never said the vets shouldn't be allowed to speak.. Said the school has every right to decide what's best for it.. You know where I'm not, junior..

[Guest schoolmom]

If the military wanted to recruit, wouldn't they just setup a table in the hallways at the school? They did it when I was in school.... This seems like a horrible reason to stop vets from coming to a school.

 

This is what they do in the school I teach in. They set up in the cafeteria during lunch time. We also announce in the announcements who and when will be there so students who have open campus lunch can stay to visit with them if they are interested.

 

However, we have had to limit when they can come because some recruiters have been coming into school whenever they feel like it after someone has shown interest. They then ask to have students removed from classes to come and work with them. Some of them are overbearing and demanding of the students' time. (this also happens at their places of employment) We no longer allow recruiters to take students out of any class as we feel that their primary responsibility at this time is to their coursework. Military responsibility has to wait until after graduation.

[wez]

This is what they do in the school I teach in. They set up in the cafeteria during lunch time. We also announce in the announcements who and when will be there so students who have open campus lunch can stay to visit with them if they are interested.

 

However, we have had to limit when they can come because some recruiters have been coming into school whenever they feel like it after someone has shown interest. They then ask to have students removed from classes to come and work with them. Some of them are overbearing and demanding of the students' time. (this also happens at their places of employment) We no longer allow recruiters to take students out of any class as we feel that their primary responsibility at this time is to their coursework. Military responsibility has to wait until after graduation.

 

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

I remember hearing an audio of a recruiter threatening a high school student who stood him up for an appointment and the the recruiter left a message and told him to come at another time and if he "failed to appear" they'd have a warrent.. nice. And a big fat lie..

 

I found the transcript.. here it was..

 

 

Army Recruiter Threatens Recruit With Arrest

 

"Hey Chris, this is Sgt. Kelt with the Army man. I think we got disconnected. Okay, I know you were on your cell probably and just had a bad connection or something like that. I know you didn't hang up on me. Anyway, by federal law you got an appointment with me at 2 o'clock this afternoon at Greenspoint Mall, okay? That's the Greenspoint Mall Army Recruiting Station at 2 o'clock. You fail to appear and we'll have a warrant. Okay? So give me a call back."

 

That was army recruiter Sgt. Thomas Kelt leaving a voicemail on a prospective recruit's voicemail. Kelt reportedly said that threatening to issue an arrest warrant was a "marketing technique." Army officials confirm the threat was made.

 

 

 

Guess he actually hung up on him..

 

Way to go kid.. liars stink! Threatens him with "federal law" and a warrant for arrest?? How honorable..

[ImWithStupid]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

I remember hearing an audio of a recruiter threatening a high school student who stood him up for an appointment and the the recruiter left a message and told him to come at another time and if he "failed to appear" they'd have a warrent.. nice. And a big fat lie..

 

I found the transcript.. here it was..

 

 

Army Recruiter Threatens Recruit With Arrest

 

"Hey Chris, this is Sgt. Kelt with the Army man. I think we got disconnected. Okay, I know you were on your cell probably and just had a bad connection or something like that. I know you didn't hang up on me. Anyway, by federal law you got an appointment with me at 2 o'clock this afternoon at Greenspoint Mall, okay? That's the Greenspoint Mall Army Recruiting Station at 2 o'clock. You fail to appear and we'll have a warrant. Okay? So give me a call back."

 

That was army recruiter Sgt. Thomas Kelt leaving a voicemail on a prospective recruit's voicemail. Kelt reportedly said that threatening to issue an arrest warrant was a "marketing technique." Army officials confirm the threat was made.

 

 

 

Guess he actually hung up on him..

 

Way to go kid.. liars stink! Threatens him with "federal law" and a warrant for arrest?? How honorable..

 

I hope as hell he was removed from his roll as a recruiter and sanctioned by the Army.

[wez]

I hope as hell he was removed from his roll as a recruiter and sanctioned by the Army.

 

 

I think he may have been promoted bud.. seriously.. lemme take a look. I'll post the link where I found that transcipt.. I thought it said something like that. Yep.. here it is..

 

The Army shut down all recruiting in the country for one day to re-educate recruiters on ethics. And as for Sgt. Kelt, officials promised "swift ... corrective action."

 

The 11 News Defenders discovered Kelt was transferred to a neighboring recruiting office where the army turned recruiter Kelt into a supervisor, as the station's new commander.

 

 

 

Mikey Likes It!: Bad recruiter gets promoted, torture and sex ain't push ups

 

Here's the site I found the transcript on. The audio is out there somewhere I'm sure.. Was worse to actually hear the intimidation in his voice.