Obama Snubs Injured Soldiers for a Workout, Will Media Care?

[ImWithStupid]

I'm saying the USA is in no position to snub China on the grounds of 'human rights violations' because your own human rights track record is far from perfect.

 

Should we ask the Aborigines about your record?

 

A fitting and current example being the invasion of Iraq (including atrocities at Abu Ghraib). I'll gladly list more.

 

The invasion of Iraq was by more than the US and included Australia. As for Abu Ghraib, that isn't indicitive of the country as a whole. I'm not condoning what happened but maybe educate yourself on the Stanford Prison Experiment and it will help you understand what happened there. Just like Stockholm Syndrome, people go out of their normal behavior in certain situations. Again, those who treated those prisoners unfairly deserve to be punished but scientific date explains what happened.

 

Besides, the USA isn't the country with the choice in the matter. Your economy is in the toilet and you need help. China/India aren't going to agree to free-trade with you until you work on your negotiation skills.

 

Don't flatter yourself. Ask any economist, even with a slower economy the US consumer still drives the global economy. In fact everyone better hope things get better here or things will get tough all over.

[Anna Perenna]

Should we ask the Aborigines about your record?

 

What's your point? We have a good relationship with China and our free-trade negotiations seem to be going well. Our PM even speaks Mandarin.

 

The invasion of Iraq was by more than the US and included Australia. As for Abu Ghraib, that isn't indicitive of the country as a whole. I'm not condoning what happened but maybe educate yourself on the Stanford Prison Experiment and it will help you understand what happened there. Just like Stockholm Syndrome, people go out of their normal behavior in certain situations. Again, those who treated those prisoners unfairly deserve to be punished but scientific date explains what happened.

 

So?

 

Don't flatter yourself.

 

Am I Chinese, now?

 

Ask any economist, even with a slower economy the US consumer still drives the global economy. In fact everyone better hope things get better here or things will get tough all over.

 

Ok ....

 

July 30, 2008

 

GENEVA — World trade talks collapsed here on Tuesday after seven years of on-again, off-again negotiations, in the latest sign of India’s and China’s growing might on the world stage and the decreasing ability of the United States to impose its will globally.

 

“The feeling went from ‘Who cares?’ to a surge of excitement and sense of breakthrough to ‘Oh, no, not again,’ ” said Rory Macrae, a partner at GPlus Europe, a communications consulting firm in Brussels, who was on the sidelines of the negotiations in Geneva.

 

He said the sticking point this time was countries like China and India, which have become more aggressive in advancing their interests. “Maybe they’re now thinking, ‘We’re big enough that we don’t even need the process,’ ” Mr. Macrae said.

 

Mari Elka Pangestu, the Indonesian trade minister, said the failure of the talks reflected the inability of the rich industrial powers to deal with the growing influence of China, India and Brazil in the global economy.

 

She complained that what she called “a reasonable request” had been blocked because the United States “is not going to show flexibility.”

 

After 7 Years, Talks on Trade Collapse - NYTimes.com

[ImWithStupid]

What's your point? We have a good relationship with China and our free-trade negotiations seem to be going well. Our PM even speaks Mandarin.

 

I think it quite hypocritical of you to sit here and defend China's continued humanl rights violations, including the near slave labor still in use.

 

You are on another forum claiming that we should do something about global warming, yet China is the worlds largest emitter of carbon, and increasing fast.

 

I guess in your opinion, as long as you can still get your stuff from China cheap, they can do whatever they want, but everyone else should fall in line.

 

As for the US consumer's affect on the global economy...

 

The global economy is too dependent on exports to the United States, whose trade deficit was $765.3 billion in 2006, while Asia and Europe lack sufficient domestic demand to offset reduced U.S. spending on overseas goods, says Stephen Roach, chief economist at Morgan Stanley in New York.

 

The United States accounts for 24 percent of Japan's total exports, 84 percent of Canada's, 86 percent of Mexico's and about 40 percent of China's, he says.

 

Just as China is dependent on the United States, other countries rely on Asia's second-largest economy. So a U.S. slowdown that hurts China will reverberate in Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and commodity producers such as Russia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Brazil.

 

World still needs the U.S. consumer - International Herald Tribune

 

like I said, as the US economy falls, so does that of most of the world.

[wez]

 

As for the US consumer's affect on the global economy...

 

 

...like I said, as the US economy falls, so does that of most of the world.

 

 

Then the worlds in deep sh t cause practically everyone I know has a long ways to go just to get to broke, let alone wield any economical clout to save the world economy..

[ImWithStupid]

Then the worlds in deep sh t cause practically everyone I know has a long ways to go just to get to broke, let alone wield any economical clout to save the world economy..

 

Exactly, and Congress appears to be doing nearly everything they can to make sure things just get horribly worse.

[wez]

Exactly, and Congress appears to be doing nearly everything they can to make sure things just get horribly worse.

 

 

 

Seems to be the plan... now the question is, why?

 

Must have some new world order in mind.. Or are panicking in the knowledge that their gravy train has reached it's destination... Hell.

[RoyalOrleans]

Must have some new world order in mind..

 

Oh yeah... Plan 9 From Outer Space.

 

The one that involves ass-raping every single American.

[wez]

 

Oh yeah... Plan 9 From Outer Space.

 

The one that involves ass-raping every single American.

 

 

Hahahahaha.... Yep, people don't manipulate human activities through politics.. never have, never will.

 

Everyone knows people don't take advantage of other people..

 

You just keep going to work.. everything is fine..

[Anna Perenna]

I think it quite hypocritical of you to sit here and defend China's continued humanl rights violations, including the near slave labor still in use.

 

I don't recall defending their human rights record. I find it really lame that because your argument is flawed and you can't handle a simple criticism of the USA that you're stooping to painting me in a false light.

 

You are on another forum claiming that we should do something about global warming, yet China is the worlds largest emitter of carbon, and increasing fast.

 

I guess in your opinion, as long as you can still get your stuff from China cheap, they can do whatever they want, but everyone else should fall in line.

 

Stop making false assumptions - and don't project your bull on to me!

 

All I've said here is that your country WANTS to trade with China, because China is very big and powerful, but China is refusing to trade with you (not the other way around, and certainly not because of their human rights record) because your country sucks at negotiations and frankly, it's beginning to look a lot like China simply doesn't need you.

[ImWithStupid]

I don't recall defending their human rights record. I find it really lame that because your argument is flawed and you can't handle a simple criticism of the USA that you're stooping to painting me in a false light.

 

Stop making false assumptions - and don't project your bull on to me!

 

So when you criticized snaf for denouncing China's "current" civil rights issues, and comparing them to those that occured in the US, 50 to 150 years ago, you weren't defending China?

 

When you bragged about your country's trade relations with China, even though they are an oppressive, racist, opprssive country that is also the highest emitter of carbon, when you preach about how we should reduce carbon for the sake of "global warming", I'm not supposed to call you on it. If you can't see the correlation to your posts, you should take a step back and review them.

 

I'm not projecting any bullsh1t, I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

All I've said here is that your country WANTS to trade with China, because China is very big and powerful, but China is refusing to trade with you (not the other way around, and certainly not because of their human rights record) because your country sucks at negotiations and frankly, it's beginning to look a lot like China simply doesn't need you.

 

As for you bragging that Australia has a good relationship with China and your claim that, "your country WANTS to trade with China, because China is very big and powerful, but China is refusing to trade with you", I'd suggest you check the statistics.

 

The US is the buyer for approximately 40% of China's goods.

[Anna Perenna]

So when you criticized snaf for denouncing China's "current" civil rights issues, and comparing them to those that occured in the US, 50 to 150 years ago, you weren't defending China?

 

Your country is currently in Iraq. What's this 50-150 year timeframe you're talking about?

 

I still don't see how comparing your own human rights record to China's equates to defending them.

 

I'm denouncing both your and Snafu's point that you 'shouldn't make nice' with China due to their human rights violations because

 

a) As if you care about human rights violations. The USA makes nice with some of the worst offending countries in the world - Saudi Arabia is a prime example. End of hypocritical self righteous crap-talk.

 

b) Your economy needs a free trade agreement with China.

 

When you bragged about your country's trade relations with China, even though they are an oppressive, racist, opprssive country that is also the highest emitter of carbon, when you preach about how we should reduce carbon for the sake of "global warming", I'm not supposed to call you on it. If you can't see the correlation to your posts, you should take a step back and review them.

 

I'm not projecting any bullsh1t, I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

As for you bragging that Australia has a good relationship with China and your claim that, "your country WANTS to trade with China, because China is very big and powerful, but China is refusing to trade with you", I'd suggest you check the statistics.

 

The US is the buyer for approximately 40% of China's goods.

 

Well, you see it wrong.

 

I'm not bragging - how insulting - I'm merely explaining that we have a free trade agreement with China because we can see how important it is. We also have a free trade agreement with the USA, even though the final agreement puts us at a disadvantage, and you still haven't ratified the Kyoto protocol, and your carbon footprint is utterly shameful.

 

In other words, and please try to understand my main point this time because it's boring having to re-explain myself:

 

You 'making nice' and Australia 'making nice' with China has absolutely nothing to do with their environmental laws or human rights violations.

 

p.s. You know I meant "free" trade.

[snafu]

You 'making nice' and Australia 'making nice' with China has absolutely nothing to do with their environmental laws or human rights violations.

 

 

I think you have civil rights and war mixed up. You don't get civil rights when your blowing up inocent people at market places. We are not deprviing any Iraqi's of there civil rights. Being "nice" or buying China's products you in fact are contributing to thier human rights violations. Why do you think thier products are so cheap? Slave labor is why.

[Anna Perenna]

I think you have civil rights and war mixed up. You don't get civil rights when your blowing up inocent people at market places. We are not deprviing any Iraqi's of there civil rights. Being "nice" or buying China's products you in fact are contributing to thier human rights violations. Why do you think thier products are so cheap? Slave labor is why.

 

I've mixed up nothing - you, on the other hand, are still missing the point.

 

The USA violated the people of Iraq's human rights by illegally invading their country.

 

And my point is: the USA has been trying to negotiate a free trade agreement with China for 7 years. Ergo, the USA wants a free trade agreement with China.

[Old Salt]

I've mixed up nothing - you, on the other hand, are still missing the point.

 

The USA violated the people of Iraq's human rights by illegally invading their country.

 

And my point is: the USA has been trying to negotiate a free trade agreement with China for 7 years. Ergo, the USA wants a free trade agreement with China.

George Bush and the one-worlders want free trade agreements with the entire world. I think he'd negotiate one with Iran and/or Zimbabwe, if he could get away with it.

[ImWithStupid]

I've mixed up nothing - you, on the other hand, are still missing the point.

 

The USA violated the people of Iraq's human rights by illegally invading their country.

 

Um pot, this is kettle.

 

To date, there are 54 countries that have joined the Coalition of the Willing--not including Canada, Germany, and France, which have recently offered conditional support. This does not include all of the 15 nations that have offered quiet support. The number of nations to date already eclipses the 1991 Gulf War coalition, which had 38 countries. 2

 

The Coalition of the Willing

 

Afghanistan: Afghanistan has pledged its support for the U.S. backed effort to disarm Iraq. May open airspace to U.S. and allied military flights.

 

Albania: Offered to send troops. Approved U.S. use of airspace and bases.

Angola:

 

Australia: Sent 2,000-strong force of elite SAS troops, fighter jets and warships to the Gulf.

 

Azerbaijan:

 

Bahrain: Headquarters of the U.S. Fifth Fleet.

 

Bulgaria: Offered use of airspace, base and refueling for U.S. warplanes; sent 150 non-combat troops specializing in chemical and biological warfare decontamination.

 

Canada: Sent military planners to join U.S. counterparts at their command post in Qatar. A destroyer and two frigates sent to the region could protect U.S. ships.

Colombia:

 

Croatia: Airspace and airports open to civilian transport planes from the coalition.

 

Czech Republic: Sent non-combat troops specializing in chemical warfare decontamination in response to U.S. request.

 

Denmark: The government decided to take part in the military action with submarine, surface ships, and a medical team comprised of 70 elite Jaegerkorps soldiers.

Dominican Republic:

El Salvador

 

Eritrea

 

Estonia

 

Ethiopia: Ethiopia has publicly pledged its support for the U.S. backed effort to disarm Iraq.

Georgia: Georgia has expressed strong support for the U.S. attack on Iraq, and has offered both its airspace and military bases to support the campaign.3

 

Greece: U.S. naval base in Crete serves U.S. sixth fleet and supports Navy and Air Force intelligence-gathering planes.

Honduras:

 

Hungary: Hosts a U.S. base where Iraqi exiles are trained for possible post-war administrative roles. NATO can use the country's roads, railways and airspace to carry military support for Turkey's defense. May open airspace for U.S. military flights.

Iceland:

 

Italy: Offered logistical help and use of military bases and ports under longstanding NATO commitments.

 

Japan: Japan expressed unequivocal support for U.S. plans to forcibly disarm Iraq. Will provide post-conflict assistance.

 

Jordan: Opened its airspace to coalition planes; hosts U.S. troops carrying out search and rescue operations in western Iraq and manning a Patriot anti-missile defense system.

 

Kuwait: Hosts coalition forces massed for an invasion.

 

Latvia: Government has decided to ask parliament to authorize the deployment of a small number of troops.

 

Lithuania: Authorized use of airspace for U.S. backed mission to disarm Iraq.

Macedonia

Marshall Islands:

Micronesia:

Mongolia:

 

Netherlands: A few hundred Dutch troops are stationed in Turkey to operate three Patriot missile defense systems, allowing movement of U.S. troops and supplies from Germany through the Netherlands en route to the Persian Gulf.

Nicaragua

 

Norway: Offered to send 10,000 chemical warfare suits to Turkey.

 

Philippines: The Philippine National Security Council offered political support for a U.S. led war to disarm Iraq.

 

Poland: To deploy up to 200 troops in the Gulf region, which will perform an unspecified non-combat role, supporting the U.S.-led offensive. A few dozen Grom elite commando troops and transport ship already stationed in the Gulf area, as part of the Afghanistan campaign, could be enlisted.

 

Portugal: Made available NATO air bases and an air base in the Azores.

 

Qatar: Hosts a mobile HQ for U.S. Central Command; allowed Washington to expand an airfield to handle more combat jets.

 

Romania: Airspace and a base open to U.S. warplanes; sent non-combat specialists in chemical decontamination, medics, engineers and military police in response to a U.S. request. Will make available Black Sea air and naval bases.

Rwanda:

 

Saudi Arabia: U.S. and British planes use its Prince Sultan Air Base to enforce a "no-fly zone" over southern Iraq.

Singapore:

 

Slovakia: Sent non-combat troops specializing in chemical warfare decontamination in response to a U.S. request. Has approved U.S. flyovers and use of its bases.

 

Slovenia: Signed the Vilnius 10 declaration supporting the United States

 

Solomon Islands:

 

South Korea: Seoul will dispatch some 500 army engineers to support a U.S. led war on Iraq, in addition to post-war assistance.

 

Spain: Strongest ally of the United States and Britain. Promised use of its NATO bases for a strike on Iraq. Spain will send a medical support vessel equipped with nuclear, biological and chemical treatment facilities. A frigate and 900 troops will accompany the support vessel in the event of a conflict.

 

Taiwan: Taipei opened its airspace to U.S. military aircraft.

 

Turkey: Hosts U.S. planes enforcing "no-fly" zone in northern Iraq. Parliament has rejected a resolution to allow use of airspace and deployment of American troops for an attack on Iraq but the cabinet was to debate the resolution again on Tuesday with a possible parliamentary vote on Wednesday. (Update: 3/19 Turkey has granted the United States the use of its airspace.)

Uganda:

 

Ukraine: Agreed to U.S. request that it send chemical warfare and nuclear decontamination experts

 

United Arab Emirates: Base for U.S. reconnaissance aircraft and refueling; host to an estimated 3,000 western troops. Has pledged 4,000 troops supported by Apache attack helicopters, Leclerc tanks, BMP3 amphibious armored vehicles, a missile boat and a frigate to defend Kuwait in case of war in Iraq.

 

United Kingdom: Washington's chief ally on Iraq has sent or committed 45,000 military personnel, planes and warships.

Uzbekistan

[Anna Perenna]

Um pot, this is kettle.

 

Hi Kettle.

 

Kindly show me the post where I defended Australia's human rights record.

 

Good luck!

 

'Pot'

[ImWithStupid]

Hi Kettle.

 

Kindly show me the post where I defended Australia's human rights record.

 

Good luck!

 

'Pot'

 

Well...

 

The USA violated the people of Iraq's human rights[/color'] by illegally invading their country.

 

I find it very hard to believe that in this quote, you weren't implying that the USA wasn't the lone violator, in your oppinion.

 

If you say differently, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Anna Perenna]

Well...

 

I find it very hard to believe that in this quote, you weren't implying that the USA wasn't the lone violator, in your oppinion.

 

If you say differently, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Of course Australia was wrong to invade Iraq.

 

I've NEVER said otherwise.

[ImWithStupid]

Of course Australia was wrong to invade Iraq.

 

I've NEVER said otherwise.

 

Now I pose the question. The process that this was done, with exaggerated, or manipulated, intelligence is wrong, but given the history of Saddam Hussein and his blatent denial of complying with regulations set up by the U.N. His history of aggression in attempting to invade Iran, invading Kuwait, using chemical weapons on the Kurds in northern Iraq and openly threatening another soverign nation in the region, i.e. Israel. Is this really that much less of a noble cause as fighting the Nazi's in Europe was in WWII?

 

I mean at the time of WWII, imperialism was still rampant. Great Brittain had it's empire, France had it's empire, the US had it's empire, etc...

 

The only difference in what Germany and Japan did, was they turned their empirical ambitions toward European and other Anglo nations.

 

Nobody did anything when Japan invaded and spread throughout China and other Asian nations all the way to Southeast Asia, nor did anyone care when Italy, the third part of the Axis nations, went into and invaded African nations.

 

Resistance was only deemed necessary when Germany started spreading across "white anglo" Europe and Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor, spread through the Pacific until it was in place to threaten Australia and Italy was in place to threaten Great Britains interests in the Middle East, i.e. oil reserves.

[Anna Perenna]

Now I pose the question. The process that this was done, with exaggerated, or manipulated, intelligence is wrong, but given the history of Saddam Hussein and his blatent denial of complying with regulations set up by the U.N. His history of aggression in attempting to invade Iran, invading Kuwait, using chemical weapons on the Kurds in northern Iraq and openly threatening another soverign nation in the region, i.e. Israel. Is this really that much less of a noble cause as fighting the Nazi's in Europe was in WWII?

 

I mean at the time of WWII, imperialism was still rampant. Great Brittain had it's empire, France had it's empire, the US had it's empire, etc...

 

The only difference in what Germany and Japan did, was they turned their empirical ambitions toward European and other Anglo nations.

 

Nobody did anything when Japan invaded and spread throughout China and other Asian nations all the way to Southeast Asia, nor did anyone care when Italy, the third part of the Axis nations, went into and invaded African nations.

 

Resistance was only deemed necessary when Germany started spreading across "white anglo" Europe and Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor, spread through the Pacific until it was in place to threaten Australia and Italy was in place to threaten Great Britains interests in the Middle East, i.e. oil reserves.

 

I'm not going to argue about the wrongs and rights of the war in Iraq. I've been arguing with Americans about this for years and nothing good ever comes of it.

 

Your president executes retards.

 

Your army tortures and holds people, without rights, in Guantanamo Bay.

 

You have 30 serial killers roaming around at any given time.

 

A woman gets raped every 6 seconds.

 

etc etc etc

 

Your country is not perfect. You should concentrate on fixing your own society before judging others.

[ImWithStupid]

I'm not going to argue about the wrongs and rights of the war in Iraq. I've been arguing with Americans about this for years and nothing good ever comes of it.

 

Your president executes retards.

 

Your army tortures and holds people, without rights, in Guantanamo Bay.

 

You have 30 serial killers roaming around at any given time.

 

A woman gets raped every 6 seconds.

 

etc etc etc

 

Your country is not perfect. You should concentrate on fixing your own society before judging others.

 

My point wasn't so much to justify the Iraq war as to call into question the motives of WWII.

 

I am very aware as to the US being imperfect, but as you said, Your country is not perfect either. You should concentrate on fixing your own society before judging others. The difference is that, just like the celebrity at the top of popularity, someone is trying to point our every flaw in the US.

 

I again bring up the pot and kettle thing. Here is where you again are projecting a dialogue of arrogence. I believe that I could point out many negative issues with your nation also, it's just that Australia isn't as "big of a celeb" as the US in the world stage so it's issues go much more unnoticed.

[Anna Perenna]

My point wasn't so much to justify the Iraq war as to call into question the motives of WWII.

 

I am very aware as to the US being imperfect, but as you said, Your country is not perfect either. You should concentrate on fixing your own society before judging others. The difference is that, just like the celebrity at the top of popularity, someone is trying to point our every flaw in the US.

 

I again bring up the pot and kettle thing. Here is where you again are projecting a dialogue of arrogence. I believe that I could point out many negative issues with your nation also, it's just that Australia isn't as "big of a celeb" as the US in the world stage so it's issues go much more unnoticed.

 

I'm not the one judging China and righteously lambasting their human rights record.

 

I'm pointing out the holes in your arguments, that's all.

 

For the last time, stop projecting false opinions on to me.

[hugo]

A lot of issues brought up here. Yes, we should seek liberalized trade agreements with all nations regardless of their human rights records. Free trade and open markets are a force against tyranny. It was Hillary and Barack in the Democratic primaries who showed a tendency to reject liberalized trade in favor of protectionism. I think they were just shooting for the votes of union members. John McCain has better free trade credentials.

 

Kyoto is a flawed treaty and has gotten worse as India and China's economies grow. It gives those nations a free ride and no progress can be made in reducing greenhouse gases without restrictions on those nations also. Kyoto needs to be trashed and a new agreement put in place. It will do no good for the Western world to lower emissions while the Asian economies go full steam ahead.

 

Actually, the damn Supreme Court won't let states execute retards anymore, Which is a damn shame. People with 70 IQs know it ain't right to cut peoples throats. You hear this crap about how they have a mind of an 8 year old. Guess what? Not many 8 year olds kill people.

 

Invading Iraq was stupid but basically based on a Wilsonian human rights philosophy. Hussein was an important force keeping Iran in check. Taking him out may well end up being good for the Iraqis but the US will receive no net benefit from it.

 

Clinton and Bush both met the Dalai Lama and it is pretty certain the next Prez will too.

[ImWithStupid]

Clinton and Bush both met the Dalai Lama and it is pretty certain the next Prez will too.

 

...or already has.

[Anna Perenna]

A lot of issues brought up here. Yes, we should seek liberalized trade agreements with all nations regardless of their human rights records. Free trade and open markets are a force against tyranny. It was Hillary and Barack in the Democratic primaries who showed a tendency to reject liberalized trade in favor of protectionism. I think they were just shooting for the votes of union members. John McCain has better free trade credentials.

 

Well, if Hugo agrees with me I must be right

 

Cheers.