The Villains --- According to John McCain

[RoyalOrleans]

McCain recently said, "I think that Wall Street is the villain in the things that happened in the subprime lending crisis and other areas where investigations and possible prosecution is going on." Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. We've already been over this. You can thank government for virtually forcing lenders to make these subprime loans. This has nothing to do with private businesses and everything to do with government's interference in private business.

 

But McCain did get something right. He said, "I also think that Congress is at fault. We didn't restrain spending. Spending got completely out of control." Amen. The size of government has grown grossly, particularly since the Republican got their hands on the reigns. What we need is a party that once again embodies the ideals of fiscal restraint. Sadly, this probably doesn't matter much to voters these days; therefore we aren't going to get any politicians who really pander to these ideals.

 

Here's the John McCain that the Republicans are afraid of...

 

See! I'm not completely one sided.

[ImWithStupid]

McCain recently said, "I think that Wall Street is the villain in the things that happened in the subprime lending crisis and other areas where investigations and possible prosecution is going on." Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. We've already been over this. You can thank government for virtually forcing lenders to make these subprime loans. This has nothing to do with private businesses and everything to do with government's interference in private business.

 

But McCain did get something right. He said, "I also think that Congress is at fault. We didn't restrain spending. Spending got completely out of control." Amen. The size of government has grown grossly, particularly since the Republican got their hands on the reigns. What we need is a party that once again embodies the ideals of fiscal restraint. Sadly, this probably doesn't matter much to voters these days; therefore we aren't going to get any politicians who really pander to these ideals.

 

Here's the John McCain that the Republicans are afraid of...

 

See! I'm not completely one sided.

 

He was kind of right about Wall Street if you call taking advantage of the situation that the government created and making millions of dollars from it and their practice of not only promoting people to over-extend themselves in mortgages but since the mid 90's giving all kinds of credit from credit cards to approving loans for vehicles that people can't afford.

 

In the end Wall Street will be the only ones who win. The US taxpayer will be there holding the check and the people on Wall Street will be walking away with the millions they made.

[wez]

Fanny May and Freddy Mac hold over 50% of all mortgages in this country.. They are the reason we are in this mess.. Course it's gonna be a free for all when the people in government takes all the risk for their buddies and puts it on the taxpayers. They get all the money.. and all the real estate.. It's a win/win situation.

 

 

Since our government and their buddies want all the money and real estate, we may want to consider changing our name to the Peoples Republic of America.

[phreakwars]

Reaganomics, without a doubt, made all of us alot wealthier. It's no wonder he made a landslide second term victory, how could you not like being wealthy? So many candidates since then like to try and align their principals with what Reagan did. However, what they don't like to do, is admit to what those same principals inevitably caused. And that would be the situation we have now. For America, it just means it's time to pay the piper. Anybody who has enough sense to realize this, is called names like "Messiah " and labeled a Liberal. The free money for all employers to boost the economy and money to buy all kinds of luxury's, is spent, and the credit card statement has come in the mail with a higher interest rate then what has been advertised. Unfortunately, there is no chapter 11 options for America as a whole. America maxed out it's credit card, so America is going to simply have to work harder to make a payment here or there.

 

Now you could try as you might to divert the issue and say "YEAH WELL ALL MY MONEY IS NOW GONNA GO ON SOME SOCIALIST AGENDA, AND I'M GONNA GET TAXED, AND YADDA YADDA YADDA" But no matter, a socialist agenda at least is made to help others out, at least it doesn't go towards killing us off more. So, we gotta cut back on the steaks and eat some macaroni & cheese a couple nights all in the name of welfare. But so what, what in the hell is wrong with helping your fellow human survive? Plus, I've checked out myself and many others.. we could all stand to stay away from all that fattening food anyway. I'd rather all the taxes taken out of my check went to help others survive over going to some company like Enron/Halliburton/etc... Putting food on the plates of hundreds of people is much better then putting another couple scoops of caviar on the plate of someone who would rather oppress others. You get nothing back, they get a Hummer for their spoiled teen.

 

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[wez]

Reaganomics, without a doubt, made all of us alot wealthier. It's no wonder he made a landslide second term victory, how could you not like being wealthy? So many candidates since then like to try and align their principals with what Reagan did. However, what they don't like to do, is admit to what those same principals inevitably caused. And that would be the situation we have now. For America, it just means it's time to pay the piper. Anybody who has enough sense to realize this, is called names like "Messiah " and labeled a Liberal. The free money for all employers to boost the economy and money to buy all kinds of luxury's, is spent, and the credit card statement has come in the mail with a higher interest rate then what has been advertised. Unfortunately, there is no chapter 11 options for America as a whole. America maxed out it's credit card, so America is going to simply have to work harder to make a payment here or there.

 

Now you could try as you might to divert the issue and say "YEAH WELL ALL MY MONEY IS NOW GONNA GO ON SOME SOCIALIST AGENDA, AND I'M GONNA GET TAXED, AND YADDA YADDA YADDA" But no matter, a socialist agenda at least is made to help others out, at least it doesn't go towards killing us off more. So, we gotta cut back on the steaks and eat some macaroni & cheese a couple nights all in the name of welfare. But so what, what in the hell is wrong with helping your fellow human survive? Plus, I've checked out myself and many others.. we could all stand to stay away from all that fattening food anyway. I'd rather all the taxes taken out of my check went to help others survive over going to some company like Enron/Halliburton/etc... Putting food on the plates of hundreds of people is much better then putting another couple scoops of caviar on the plate of someone who would rather oppress others. You get nothing back, they get a Hummer for their spoiled teen.

 

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Unfortunately the socialist agenda is for keeping those spoiled teens in hummers and prepping them for a future of politics .. The real welfare cases wear suits, eat caviar and pose as leaders around these parts..

[phreakwars]

On a related note, Senator McCain also proclaimed:

 

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hD0zJf7Raz2QJhFJhAI-kkEFL_Lg

Obama would drag US into depression

 

Well.... dang... I had no idea the US was/is doing so well already

 

[attach=full]2022[/attach]

 

Man, what was I personally thinking?

 

Thank Allah people like Senator McCain have their head on straight and promise to keep our country prosperous and wealthy like the current administration has.

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[wez]

On a related note, Senator McCain also proclaimed:

 

AFP: Obama would drag US into depression: McCain camp

Well.... dang... I had no idea the US was/is doing so well already

 

[attach=full]2023[/attach]

 

Man, what was I personally thinking?

 

Thank Allah people like Senator McCain have their head on straight and promise to keep our country prosperous and wealthy like the current administration has.

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Oh yeah... we're kicking ass.. I still don't understand that whole debt = wealth thing though.. Good thing I got folks like McBrain looking out for me..

[ImWithStupid]

I differ in view on Reaganomics. Reaganomics made it so people had more money to spend and for the most part only spent what they had. It was in the mid 90's when banks started going crazy giving credit to people who shouldn't have it that got us where we are with the mortgage crisis. In the early 90's we had a minor recession and the banks wanted the money to keep flowing.

 

Like I keep saying. It's not so much the President that will lead us into a recession, but with the Dems controlling Congress that will be the problem with Obama winning.

 

In the Carter years, Dem Pres and Congress, too much governemnt spending because there weren't the checks. In the Reagan/Bush Sr. years Repub Pres, Dem Congress and spending was controlled. During most of the Clinton years, Dem Pres and Repub Congress, but then in 2000 we had a Repub Pres and Repub Congress and at first it wasn't too bad then they started to realize that GW wasn't going to veto anything they pass and spend on and the government once again began to spend money like drunken sailors.

 

As far as a socialist agenda and programs. I personally think that it's a bad idea at this time. Jimmy Carter tried it and the economy went to it's lowest point since the Depression and most economist say that FDR's social programs probably actually dragged the Depression on longer than it would have been had we just let everything crash hard and recover. That's what happened in most other nations and they recovered much faster than we did. Hell look at Russia. They were dead in the water 10 years ago and are now more powerful economically than ever.

[hugo]

But so what, what in the hell is wrong with helping your fellow human survive? Plus, I've checked out myself and many others.. we could all stand to stay away from all that fattening food anyway. I'd rather all the taxes taken out of my check went to help others survive over going to some company like Enron/Halliburton/etc... Putting food on the plates of hundreds of people is much better then putting another couple scoops of caviar on the plate of someone who would rather oppress others. You get nothing back, they get a Hummer for their spoiled teen.

 

 

You make the assumption that political self-interest is somehow more virtuous than economic self-interest. Seemy post entitled "Greed",

 

Who are these people going hungry? You can still get a pot pie for 50 cents. Why do you believe programs initiated to help the truly needy won't be seriously abused by those with political and economic power? I think those who wish to help their fellow humans survive should engage in private charity. I do agree that consumption taxes are preferable to income taxes. That the caviar eater pays higher taxes than the man with the same income who saves and later provides capital for labor to utilize.

 

THERE IS A BASIC RULE IN ECONOMICS; YOU SUBSIDIZE SOMETHING YOU GET MORE OF IT. PAY PEOPLE TO BE POOR YOU GET MORE POOR PEOPLE.

 

What 40+ years of welfare has produced is more poverty and crime and inner cities that are a war zone.

I do agree the Republican assertions that tax cuts always pay for themselves is poppy . It is nothing more than the Keynesian multiplier effect turned on its head, The multiplier effect is very negligible.

 

Milton Friedman on the multiplier effect:

 

Marvelously simple. A key that apparently unlocks the mystery of long-continued unemployment: inadequate autonomous spending or too low a propensity to consume. Increase either, or both, being careful simply not to go too far, and full employment could be attained. What a wonderful prescription: for consumers, spend more out of your income, and your income will rise; for governments, spend more, and aggregate income will rise by a multiple of your additional spending; tax less, and consumers will spend more with the same result. Though Keynes himself, and even more, his disciples, produced much more sophisticated and subtle versions of the theory, this simple version contains the essence of its great appeal to non-economists and especially governments.

 

Here was one of the most famous and respected economists in the world informing governments that the way to full employment was paved with higher spending and lower taxes. What more attractive advice could politicians wish for? Long regarded public vices turned into public virtues! Marvelously simple, yes. But also simply marvelous. How could a position such as YO in Figure 1 be regarded as a long-term equilibrium-as was implied in the claim that the theory was "general"? At that point, men and machines are idle. Would not the excess supply of men and machines exert downward pressures on the prices of both? Yes, said Keynes, but, if effective, that would be accompanied by lower money prices of output that would cancel the lower money wages and money cost of capital, so that real wages and the real cost of capital would be unaffected-which is why Keynes expressed all aggregate magnitudes in "wage-units." Hence, said Keynes, flexible wages and prices would do no good. Far better to operate directly on spending.

 

The only way to balance the budget,and eventually truly lower taxes, is to cut spending. Reagan and Bush have made a joke out of the conservative balanced budget ideology that governed Barry Goldwater and his fellow conservatives. The fact is that we (well, maybe not me and RO) got the government we deserve. A government that tells us we can have our cake and eat it too.

 

Both current major party candidates are running on platforms that will increase the federal deficit just as we have the baby boomers getting older. Guess what folks..If we are running deficits when we have the boomers in the workforce how much higher will the deficit grow when they retire and collect ss and medicaid? Don't worry about the dollar though pretty much the whole world suffers from the same Keynesian disease.

 

Government has been undermining personal savings, capital investment and labor while subsidizing frivolous spending and sloth for 75 years. The bill is coming due

[Anna Perenna]

Milton Friedman on the multiplier effect:

 

Hey Hugo, good to see you haven't changed

 

I was wondering why you still quote Milton Friedman, particularly when it's becoming apparent that he didn't consider several factors and consequences when pushing his ideas.

 

I know he was 'brilliant' in some ways and very influential, but that doesn't mean his thinking wasn't seriously flawed.

[hugo]

Hey Hugo, good to see you haven't changed

 

I was wondering why you still quote Milton Friedman, particularly when it's becoming apparent that he didn't consider several factors and consequences when pushing his ideas.

 

I know he was 'brilliant' in some ways and very influential, but that doesn't mean his thinking wasn't seriously flawed.

 

 

Of all the strongly influential 20th Century economists his thinking was the least flawed. His basic premise that liberty and economic prosperity go hand in hand was quite sound.

 

Democracy and capitalism are heavily flawed. I mean we elected Jimmy Carter and Paris Hilton makes millions. I still favor both democracy (in a constitutional republican form) and mildly regulated capitalism as the best systems in this imperfect world. The modern conservatives and the modern liberals need to keep their noses out of other peoples' business and their hands out of other peoples' wallets.

 

Good seeing ya around.

 

Another Friedman quote:

 

Every friend of freedom must be as revolted as I am by the prospect of turning the United States into an armed camp, by the vision of jails filled with casual drug users and of an army of enforcers empowered to invade the liberty of citizens on slight evidence.

 

A lot of liberals totally agree with Friedman on issues such as the above, Friedman was no conservative as we call them today. In fact, he proudly called himself a liberal as he was in the classical liberal tradition.

 

Hayek and Friedman are the two individuals most responsible for giving the Westen world an alternative to Keynesian tyranny.

 

A few more quotes:

 

Columbus did not seek a new route to the Indies in response to a majority directive.

Milton Friedman

 

Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.

Milton Friedman

 

Every friend of freedom must be as revolted as I am by the prospect of turning the United States into an armed camp, by the vision of jails filled with casual drug users and of an army of enforcers empowered to invade the liberty of citizens on slight evidence.

Milton Friedman

 

Governments never learn. Only people learn.

Milton Friedman

 

Hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat scorned.

Milton Friedman

 

History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom.

Milton Friedman

 

History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom. Clearly it is not a sufficient condition.

Milton Friedman

 

I am favor of cutting taxes under any circumstances and for any excuse, for any reason, whenever it's possible.

Milton Friedman

 

I'm in favor of legalizing drugs. According to my values system, if people want to kill themselves, they have every right to do so. Most of the harm that comes from drugs is because they are illegal.

Milton Friedman

 

If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand.

Milton Friedman

 

Inflation is taxation without legislation.

Milton Friedman

 

Inflation is the one form of taxation that can be imposed without legislation.

Milton Friedman

 

Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.

Milton Friedman

 

Most economic fallacies derive from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another.

Milton Friedman

 

Most of the energy of political work is devoted to correcting the effects of mismanagement of government.

Milton Friedman

 

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program.

Milton Friedman

 

One man's opportunism is another man's statesmanship.

Milton Friedman

 

Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

Milton Friedman

 

The black market was a way of getting around government controls. It was a way of enabling the free market to work. It was a way of opening up, enabling people.

Milton Friedman

 

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.

Milton Friedman

 

The Great Depression, like most other periods of severe unemployment, was produced by government mismanagement rather than by any inherent instability of the private economy.

Milton Friedman

 

The greatest advances of civilization, whether in architecture or painting, in science and literature, in industry or agriculture, have never come from centralized government.

Milton Friedman

 

The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit.

Milton Friedman

 

The most important ways in which I think the Internet will affect the big issue is that it will make it more difficult for government to collect taxes.

Milton Friedman

 

The only relevant test of the validity of a hypothesis is comparison of prediction with experience.

Milton Friedman

 

The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.

Milton Friedman

 

The power to do good is also the power to do harm.

Milton Friedman

 

The problem of social organization is how to set up an arrangement under which greed will do the least harm, capitalism is that kind of a system.

Milton Friedman

 

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Milton Friedman

 

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

Milton Friedman

 

Universities exist to transmit knowledge and understanding of ideas and values to students not to provide entertainment for spectators or employment for athletes.

Milton Friedman

 

We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork.

Milton Friedman

[Anna Perenna]

Of all the strongly influential 20th Century economists his thinking was the least flawed. His basic premise that liberty and economic prosperity go hand in hand was quite sound.

 

I still favor both democracy (in a constitutional republican form) and mildly regulated capitalism as the best systems in this imperfect world.

 

I'm glad you said that, because it was going to be the premise of my next question.

 

Do you agree that there needs to be more regulation - especially today? There should be clauses and special considerations added to his legacy to account for times of severe economic 'distress'. I agree with most of his economic ideas in theory but in reality they just don't appear to be working (particularly in the long-term).

 

In fact I think the very idea of globalisation/free-markets is in need a total re-think.

[hugo]

I'm glad you said that, because it was going to be the premise of my next question.

 

Do you agree that there needs to be more regulation - especially today? There should be clauses and special considerations added to his legacy to account for times of severe economic 'distress'. I agree with most of his economic ideas in theory but in reality they just don't appear to be working (particularly in the long-term).

 

In fact I think the very idea of globalisation/free-markets is in need a total re-think.

 

Let me get back with this one when I have more time. I do believe government should either stop bailing out banks or apply stricter regulations. I'd prefer the former but the latter is the only politically possible solution to stop the privatizing of profits and socializing of losses that is going on.

 

Of course, as RO already referred to, our government was actually forcing banks to increase risky loans to minorities and those living in distressed economic areas.

[hugo]

Regulations are needed to prevent third parties from being harmed by transactions they are not involved in. Why I prefer calliung myself a classical liberal over libertarian is there are libertarians who fall under the spell of Ayn Rand and/or Murray Rothbard and actually believe that third party costs, such as pollution, can be controlled without coercion. Pollution control requires government involvement. I do believe pollution can be more effectively reduced if you allow companies to buy and sell pollution credits over just setting maximum limits on emissions. This encourages companies to innovate and find systems that reduce pollution below the government required mandates. The buyers of the pollution credits will soon have to utilize the technologies of the sellers to remain competitive.

 

I disagree with most regulations whose intention is to protect the consumer beyond protecting the consumer from fraudulant transactions. These regulations almost always end up protecting those regulated from further competition. Existing corporations in an industry, in the absence of foreign competition, secretly love new regulations. New regulations impose barriers to entry. Those who are on regulatory boards usually come primarily from the industry itself with maybe a token consumer advocate among them. (to be continued) In the meantime a website that shows how horribly wrong well intended regulations can go http://www.fdareview.org/harm.shtml

(Sadly, not many of our congressmen agree with reducing regulations for consumer protection; HR 4040 just passed by a 424-1 margin. Lovers of liberty do not have to look up who the one dissenting congressman was.)

[Anna Perenna]

Regulations are needed to prevent third parties from being harmed by transactions they are not involved in. Why I prefer calliung myself a classical liberal over libertarian is there are libertarians who fall under the spell of Ayn Rand and/or Murray Rothbard and actually believe that third party costs, such as pollution, can be controlled without coercion. Pollution control requires government involvement. I do believe pollution can be more effectively reduced if you allow companies to buy and sell pollution credits over just setting maximum limits on emissions. This encourages companies to innovate and find systems that reduce pollution below the government required mandates. The buyers of the pollution credits will soon have to utilize the technologies of the sellers to remain competitive.

 

I disagree with most regulations whose intention is to protect the consumer beyond protecting the consumer from fraudulant transactions. These regulations almost always end up protecting those regulated from further competition. Existing corporations in an industry, in the absence of foreign competition, secretly love new regulations. New regulations impose barriers to entry. Those who are on regulatory boards usually come primarily from the industry itself with maybe a token consumer advocate among them. (to be continued) In the meantime a website that shows how horribly wrong well intended regulations can go FDAReview.org, a project of The Independent Institute

(Sadly, not many of our congressmen agree with reducing regulations for consumer protection; HR 4040 just passed by a 424-1 margin. Lovers of liberty do not have to look up who the one dissenting congressman was.)

 

Thanks for the clarification. I'm with you on most of that.

 

Even though I don't personally agree with the logic behind emissions trading, or carbon credits as you call it - but that's a whole new debate.