Heroes.. Just like Juan McCain

[wez]

That's not what is the only reason McCain is considered a hero, but nice sidestep to my question.

 

Someone else, or you? Or just McCain?

 

Who side stepped who's question?

 

I have as much respect for the men in hoods, as I do John McCain for their experience as POWS.

 

How about you? And what else makes McCain a stand alone hero, if that's what you think.

[snafu]

Who side stepped who's question?

 

I have as much respect for the men in hoods, as I do John McCain for their experience as POWS.

 

How about you? And what else makes McCain a stand alone hero, if that's what you think.

 

 

Hes not. Nowbody said he won the war himsellf. All were saying is he served this county( the one that's voting for a presedent), with honor for you, me and the voters. That gives him a lot more respect than lets say you or me.

[wez]

Hes not. Nowbody said he won the war himsellf. All were saying is he served this county( the one that's voting for a presedent), with honor for you, me and the voters. That gives him a lot more respect than lets say you or me.

 

 

So the men in hoods are more deserving of respect than you or I?

[ImWithStupid]

Who side stepped who's question?

 

I have as much respect for the men in hoods, as I do John McCain for their experience as POWS.

 

How about you? And what else makes McCain a stand alone hero, if that's what you think.

 

So for all you know, these unknown men in hoods could be baby raping, murderous, thieves, who maraude rape and pillage, but since they are POW's they are heros.

 

My answer that they are heroes to somebody is because, somebody may know of their deeds other than being a POW.

 

John McCain is a hero besides, being a POW. John McCain showed this characher by staying in the Hanoi Hilton even though he was offered freedom, John McCain is a hero because he voluntarily served his country, was wounded and nearly killed in a fire and explosion on the USS Forestal, was given the opportunity to go home, but chose to transfer to another carrier that was shorthanded due to pilots being shot down. It was during his service on this other carrier he was shot down.

 

I don't believe that being a POW makes someone a hero, their deeds, before, during and after would make that distinction. Nor do I believe that you have to even serve in the military to be a hero.

 

Aside from the obvious, like police, fire, ems who through their actions and deeds could be considered heroes, there are the everyday people like the guy who owns the Little Ceasar pizza chain who donates tens of thousands of dollars to wounded and non-wounded veterans to start their own franchise or the anyone who volunteers to any organization that truly saves lives or prevents continued harm or oppression to people.

 

So to answer your question, no the guys in hoods are not heroes to me because I know not of their lives, deeds or wrongdoings, John McCain isn't a hero to me because I know his, not that he is a POW.

 

That's one thing about you. It seems you are often too fast to generalize everyone for one event.

[wez]

So for all you know, these unknown men in hoods could be

 

My answer that they are heroes to somebody is because, somebody may know of their deeds other than being a POW.

 

John McCain is a hero besides, being a POW. John McCain showed this characher by staying in the Hanoi Hilton even though he was offered freedom, John McCain is a hero because he voluntarily served his country, was wounded and nearly killed in a fire and explosion on the USS Forestal, was given the opportunity to go home, but chose to transfer to another carrier that was shorthanded due to pilots being shot down. It was during his service on this other carrier he was shot down.

 

I don't believe that being a POW makes someone a hero, their deeds, before, during and after would make that distinction. Nor do I believe that you have to even serve in the military to be a hero.

 

Aside from the obvious, like police, fire, ems who through their actions and deeds could be considered heroes, there are the everyday people like the guy who owns the Little Ceasar pizza chain who donates tens of thousands of dollars to wounded and non-wounded veterans to start their own franchise or the anyone who volunteers to any organization that truly saves lives or prevents continued harm or oppression to people.

 

So to answer your question, no the guys in hoods are not heroes to me because I know not of their lives, deeds or wrongdoings, John McCain isn't a hero to me because I know his, not that he is a POW.

 

That's one thing about you. It seems you are often too fast to generalize everyone for one event.

 

For all you know, they could be fathers, brothers, husbands, friends, policemen, emt's, firemen, and young men born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Regardless, they deserve the exact same respect as John McCain as a human being.

 

What about the baby raping, murderous thieves, who marauded, raped and pillaged Vietnam after traveling half way around the world to do so? Heros?

[ImWithStupid]

For all you know, they could be fathers, brothers, husbands, friends, policemen, emt's, firemen, and young men born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Regardless, they deserve the exact same respect as John McCain as a human being.

 

They may be. I don't know. That's why I don't consider them heroes but someone might.

 

What about the baby raping, murderous thieves, who marauded, raped and pillaged Vietnam after traveling half way around the world to do so? Heros?

 

No. Those individuals aren't.

 

Someone like my dead father who was stationed in Germany during Vietnam but volunteered to go there, and didn't commit any attrocities could be. Difference is. I knew him.

[Old Salt]

Who side stepped who's question?

 

I have as much respect for the men in hoods, as I do John McCain for their experience as POWS.

 

How about you? And what else makes McCain a stand alone hero, if that's what you think.

I respect those men in the hoods as human beings and it disgusts me, what a relatively few a$$holes did to them. Things like that should not be done to any human being. That being said, I respect John McCain more as a fellow warrior. John McCain's torment went on for five years - the men in the hoods' torment went on for a much shorter time.

 

I may not vote for him, but I do respect him.

[wez]

They may be. I don't know. That's why I don't consider them heroes but someone might.

 

 

 

No. Those individuals aren't.

 

Someone like my dead father who was stationed in Germany during Vietnam but volunteered to go there, and didn't commit any attrocities could be. Difference is. I knew him.

 

All the more reason to show respect to those you don't know. Would you want someone who didn't know your father doing that to him?

[wez]

I respect those men in the hoods as human beings and it disgusts me, what a relatively few a$ did to them. Things like that should not be done to any human being. That being said, I respect John McCain more as a fellow warrior. John McCain's torment went on for five years - the men in the hoods' torment went on for a much shorter time.

 

I may not vote for him, but I do respect him.

 

I would venture to guess that a lot of those men have been POWS for at least 5 years and beyond now.. The ones getting waterboarded in Guantanamo too..

 

Feb 2003 is 5 1/2 years ago..

[ImWithStupid]

All the more reason to show respect to those you don't know. Would you want someone who didn't know your father doing that to him?

 

I wouldn't care if those who didn't know him didn't give him respect as a hero. I'd be pissed if someone who didn't know him showed him disrespect, like those who spit on troops coming home and called them all kinds of names, true or untrue, just as I would be pissed at someone who did commit true atrocities was treated as a hero. It would only trivialize and offend the accomplishments of true heroes.

 

That's why I never generalized the guys in the hoods as terrorist, combatants or anything more than POW's who were exposed to mistreatment and even torture in some cases.

 

I don't know if they are heroes, and until I know I won't assume they are any more than I would just assume a cop/fireman/ems worker was a hero. Heroes aren't made by what their job is, it's what they do that makes them a hero.

[ImWithStupid]

I would venture to guess that a lot of those men have been POWS for at least 5 years and beyond now.. The ones getting waterboarded in Guantanamo too..

 

Feb 2003 is 5 1/2 years ago..

 

Still doesn't make them "heroes". Only deeds can make someone a hero.

[wez]

Still doesn't make them "heroes". Only deeds can make someone a hero.

 

Totally agree.. and deeds can make someone a war criminal by proxy, like me.

[wez]

Excerpt: 'My Guantanamo Diary'

by Mahvish Rukhsana Khan

 

The prisoner was standing at the far end of the room behind a long table. His leg was chained to the floor beside a seven-by eight-foot cage. He looked wary as the door opened, but as our eyes met and he saw me in my traditional embroidered shawl, a smile broke across his weathered features. I smiled back and gave him the universal Islamic greeting:

 

"As-salaam alaikum — May peace be upon you."

 

"Walaikum as-salaam — May peace also be upon you," he responded.

 

With that, I shook hands with my first "terrorist."

 

He was a handsome, soft-spoken man with a short, neatly groomed beard. His once-dark hair was heavily flecked with gray. He was dressed in an oversized white prison uniform. I thought he looked much older than his forty-six years — closer to sixty or seventy.

 

 

His name was Ali Shah Mousovi. He was a pediatrician and the son of a prominent Afghan family from the city of Gardez, where he'd been arrested by U.S. troops more than three years earlier. He had returned to Afghanistan in August 2003 after twelve years of exile in Iran, he told us, to help rebuild his wathan, his homeland.

 

 

There was a ceiling camera in the cage to the right of our table, into which Mousovi was put before and after our meetings and at lunchtime. We'd been told that the camera was there for our protection. I wondered what could happen to us in a room with a prisoner who was shackled to the floor.

 

Attorney-client meetings at Guantanamo are supposed to be privileged and confidential, and the base captain had told us that morning that because the camera was located inside the cage, it couldn't pick up images of the legal papers laid on the table. He also told us that the camera wasn't recording us and didn't have audio, so we shouldn't worry about the military listening in on our conversations. I wondered about that.

 

 

As I translated from Pashto, Mousovi hesitantly described his life since his arrest. He had gone back to Gardez in August 2003 and remembered the small crowd of well-wishers who came out to greet his car as it jostled down the rocky mountain road into town. Sixty or eighty people, maybe more, rushed to meet him. They threw their arms around him, grateful for the return of professionals to Afghanistan.

 

In the coming days, he, his brother Ismail, and his cousin Reza, who were also physicians, planned to open their clinic. Once it was up and running, the men would fetch their families from Iran. Instead, on his second night in Gardez, American soldiers broke down the door to Mousovi's family guesthouse and took him away. He was accused of associating with the Taliban and of funneling money to anticoalition insurgents.

 

After his arrest, he spent twenty-two days in a makeshift outdoor jail in Gardez under constant interrogation and without the opportunity to shower or bathe. Then, he had been transported by helicopter to Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan. There, he was thrown into a tiny three-and-a-half-by-seven foot shed—face down, blindfolded, hooded, and gagged. Lying like this, he said, he was kicked in the head repeatedly.

 

At some point, his jailers cut the clothes off his body, and he squirmed, trying to cover himself. "This is American soil," he was told. "This is not your soil. You will obey us." He had become a stranger in his own land: the soil had changed beneath his feet. Twenty miles from Kabul, he was apparently no longer in Afghanistan.

 

Obeying, he had quickly learned, meant not resisting.

 

He described how he was beaten regularly by Americans in civilian clothing. More painful than the bruises and wounds that covered his body were the unbroken days and nights without sleep. Tape recordings of screeching sirens blared through the speakers that soldiers placed by his ears. His head throbbed. Whenever he managed, mercifully, to doze off, he'd be startled awake by wooden clubs striking loud blows against the wall. He recalled the sting as he was repeatedly doused with ice water. He said he was not allowed to sit down for two weeks straight. At some point his legs felt like wet noodles; when they gave out, he was beaten and forced to stand back up. He couldn't remember how many times this happened.

 

In rotating shifts, U.S. soldiers periodically kicked and beat him and the other prisoners. Some yelled things about September 11. Others spat on him. Many cursed his mother, sisters, and other family members. They cursed his nationality and religion. He wanted to stand up for his loved ones and for himself as the young soldiers swore obscenities at him, but he could only groan as the hard boots slammed into his throbbing head.

 

"Many of the Afghans did not understand the terrible things they were saying," he told us, "but I understood." He used to understand English well, he said, but years of abuse and sleep deprivation had taken a toll on his memory.

 

Peter scribbled notes furiously as the doctor spoke, describing how soldiers had tied a rope around him and dragged him around through dirt and gravel. He said he was subjected to extreme temperatures of heat and cold. Sometimes he was kept in complete darkness for hours and then made to stare into intense bright light. He was made to stand endless hours of the night in uncomfortable positions. He was punished if he looked to his right or to his left. Each moment, he believed, could be his last.

 

And with every blow, he would repeat to himself, "La-illahailla-Allah — There is no God but God."

 

These words are the first words a Muslim hears upon his birth and often the last words spoken before he dies. When a baby is born, the doctor or the father utters this prayer into the crying infant's ear. On the threshold of death, a doctor or family member often urges the dying person to speak these final parting words. And afterward, the family will echo this prayer as the deceased is laid to rest.

 

"La-illaha-illa-Allah, Mohammad-an-rasul Allah — There is no god but God, and Mohammad is his messenger."

 

 

Mousovi said he didn't know why he'd been brought to Guantanamo Bay. He believed that someone had sold him to U.S. forces to collect a reward of up to $25,000 for anyone who gave up a Taliban or al-Qaeda member. Perhaps his political opponents had given false reports to the Americans to prevent him from running for parliament. He could only speculate. He insisted that he was simply a doctor who wanted to help rebuild his country.

 

 

A hero?

[ImWithStupid]

Totally agree.. and deeds can make someone a war criminal by proxy, like me.

 

Spoken like a true, poor, woas me, liberal who claims to be a victim.

[ImWithStupid]

A hero?

 

I don't have enough information about this person to make that judgement.

[ImWithStupid]

Wow! Josef Mengele.

 

.

 

Israeli Mossad let Nazi Mengele get away

 

By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer

Tue Sep 2, 5:26 PM ET

 

JERUSALEM - Israeli agents who kidnapped Nazi mastermind Adolf Eichmann from Argentina in 1960 found the notorious death camp doctor Josef Mengele but let him get away, one of the operatives said Tuesday.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080902/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_mengele

 

He must have been a "hero" he was forced from his home nation as a "war criminal" after all the good he did to advance medicine, with his experiments done on Jewish twins, in concentration camps during WWII.

 

As long as someone thinks he's a hero, I guess it's true.

 

Josef Mengele, butcher, sadist, torturer, HERO.

[wez]

Spoken like a true, poor, woas me, liberal who claims to be a victim.

 

I'm no victim.. I have a voice, and a brain.

 

 

 

I don't have enough information about this person to make that judgement.

 

 

Do you have enough info to judge any person, except yourself, and Dr. Death there?

 

 

Ever hear about the black soldiers we gave syphyllis to and left untreated to die for experiment? Heroes?

 

 

So, perhaps whilst I'm at school today you can explain why someone such as McCain dropping bombs on and killing people, before being shot down like a war hero, is any better or worse than Joe Menegle up there..

 

Or are there no such things as "war heroes"? Maybe they're all butchers, sadists, torturers, HEROES, eh? Is that what you're saying?

[wez]

So have we concluded McCains war hero status = that of Joe Mengele?

 

Or can you explain how dropping bombs on people is more honorable and worthy of respect than Joes heroic deeds? Or vice versa.. I'll advocate for John or Joe.. pick your poison.. Or shall we call them both dumbasses, equally, and declare a vote for John McCain is a vote for Joe Mengele, by proxy?

 

Anyone? I'm ready...

[ImWithStupid]

So have we concluded McCains war hero status = that of Joe Mengele?

 

Or can you explain how dropping bombs on people is more honorable and worthy of respect than Joes heroic deeds? Or vice versa.. I'll advocate for John or Joe.. pick your poison.. Or shall we call them both dumbasses, equally and declare a vote for John McCain is a vote for Joe Mengele, by proxy?

 

Anyone? I'm ready...

 

By your standards that it doesn't matter what someone has done in their past. I guess so.

 

I wouldn't think so by my standards.

[wez]

By your standards that it doesn't matter what someone has done in their past. I guess so.

 

I wouldn't think so by my standards.

 

 

 

 

McCain dropped bombs, people died. Mengele did whatever he did, people died..

 

 

Explain the difference to me.. Should be easy..

[ImWithStupid]

McCain dropped bombs, people died. Mengele did whatever he did, people died..

 

 

Explain the difference to me.. Should be easy..

 

Damn! I just lost a bet to myself. I bet your next reply would include a Bible quote, but it was just a rediculous comparison.

[wez]

Damn! I just lost a bet to myself. I bet your next reply would include a Bible quote, but it was just a rediculous comparison.

 

Can you explain it? Or defend one over the other? Pick whoever ya want, I'll take the other..

 

Why is it a ridiculous comparison? Taking an awful long time to post some valid reason on how they differ.

 

I'll go dig up one of my own quotes and we'll see if I'm right.. you can test it for me...

 

 

Originally posted by wez to TJ

I don't defend terrorists, you do. I don't condone their actions, you do by condoning the violent actions of you and yours. See how that works? Keep backing it up with hypocrisy, it's the only way to defend it like I said a month and a half ago.

 

Can't remember where the original is.. but you get the point.. Prove me wrong, please. You'd be the first ever...

 

I've thought it out til the end of time.. if you need to prove it to yourself, use me, abuse me.. I'm here for ya bud. Take as long as ya need.. Or tell me the difference..

[eddo]

Damn! I just lost a bet to myself. I bet your next reply would include a Bible quote, but it was just a rediculous comparison.

 

Do you owe yourself $100 now?

[ImWithStupid]

Do you owe yourself $100 now?

 

Yea but I gonna welch on the bet.

[wez]

Could a non-Anti American come and explain this to me, please? Thank you..