Bible Prophecy & The Scientfic Method

[timesjoke]

I'm still waiting for landmine casualties to get their prayers answered ! This would be definitive proof would it not?

 

This sounds just like:

 

If you love me you will buy me that new bike..........

 

 

Conditional and self serving attitudes are not rewarded by God. As we see with Job, suffering is part of life and offers society context to their existence. I love how athiests try to come up with all these attempts to prove God does not exist to those of us who know better.

 

 

All you have to do is look at what happened each time an Athiest got control of an army to see how they are 100 times more destructive to this world than any religion.

[Phantom]

All you have to do is look at what happened each time an Athiest got control of an army to see how they are 100 times more destructive to this world than any religion.

 

I completely agree with this and can prove it with statistics. A common canard is 'Religion has caused more death than anything else and religion has been the cause of more wars than anything else.' When in actuality atheist/secular regimes have killed more people (over 100 million) in the last century than all religious conflicts combined throughout the known ages.

[timesjoke]

I completely agree with this and can prove it with statistics. A common canard is 'Religion has caused more death than anything else and religion has been the cause of more wars than anything else.' When in actuality atheist/secular regimes have killed more people (over 100 million) in the last century than all religious conflicts combined throughout the known ages.

 

 

But when you point out Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Pol Pot were all athiests and each one killed many more times the number killed in things like the crusades/witch hunts combined, the Athiests all claim we are being unfair to their religion.

 

Oh, and make no mistake, I do see their belief system as another kind of religion, just based on worshiping themselves instead of a God.

 

 

On the other side of the coin, we have positive things. While some bad things were done in the name of Christian beliefs, there are hundreds of millions of people who have been helped by Christian groups where athiests never help anyone. When was the last time you heard of an Athiest group going to rwanda to help people? Christians have been going to places the UN refuses to even notice for many generations. The largest athiest group in America is the A.C.L.U. and their biggest contribution to society is to help criminals get away with crimes and to abolish evil nativity sceenes from public property.

 

At the same time Christian groups are helping millions of people every day with money donated by Christians without any desire to get anything back.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

l I have personally only known of one amputee that was healed (he lost one of his arms from the elbow down in a gas explosion) and that is the only case that matters to me because I do not accept hearsay stories. So they do get healed. .

 

You have missed my point, or did you dodge it ?

 

I was not referring to a healing. I was referring to these "miracles" which Christians claim to receive from their sky-faerie.

 

A healing is not necessarily a miracle. It could have healed naturally as many injuries do.

 

Now, if an amputee grew a new limb, that would be a miracle right ? Did your friend do this ? No, it seems that god does not do miracles for amputees, other folks in trouble yes, but not amputees.

 

So therefore either god wont perform miracles for amputees, or, he more likely cant, or even more likely, does not exist, for of course,why would he exclude amputees ?

 

 

Again, I don't believe in fairies, goblins, pixes, magic, or even 'gods.' I only believe in God (Jehovah) because He is the only one who has validated His existence to me..

 

Strange how I'm never there to bear witness when the sky-faerie comes calling and validating.

 

 

 

That is somewhat of a misconception. ..

 

I meant that for you, religion may be a good thing as it may help you through your life. But in other ways I see it as an insidious evil.

 

Coercing little kids with tales of eternal suffering unless they stop thinking, and just blindly believe in this rubbish, should not be allowed.

 

 

 

On this I agree. I am an ardent advocate of separation of church and state. The majority religion might be in my favor today but it might not be in a decade from now. Should I then be forced to pray to Allah or a universal one-world deity? I couldn't. Therefore, church and state separation for me all the way. Not to mention I want the government to keep their nose out of my church. Separation of church and state works both ways..

 

For myself I can only say that I am against indoctrination of children by theists of any stripe.

 

 

 

A

nd I see no difference between atheism, Nazism, and Stalinism. It's all just brainwashing of the masses. Not to mention, much more deadly.

 

No Theism, Nazism, Stalinism is indoctrination/brainwashing. Their gain is either monetary, or power.

 

Atheism is not indoctrination. Atheists do not seek money or power, and have no wish to instill fear in others.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timesjoke

All you have to do is look at what happened each time an Athiest got control of an army to see how they are 100 times more destructive to this world than any religion.

 

I completely agree with this and can prove it with statistics. A common canard is 'Religion has caused more death than anything else and religion has been the cause of more wars than anything else.' When in actuality atheist/secular regimes have killed more people (over 100 million) in the last century than all religious conflicts combined throughout the known ages.

 

This is just nonsense.

 

From earliest times people have believed in gods to explain what they saw about them. The sun, stars, rivers and rocks have all been gods. Then in was horses, bulls and rams. Latterly it was humanised with Odin, Loki, Jehovah, Jesus and Allah.

 

It is only recently that some people have divorced this ancient nonsence.

 

It follows then that it is Theists who have caused and fought the majority of wars.

 

Stalin, Hitler, Bin-Laden, Vlad the Impaler, Pol Pot, Chowkeskow, and many more infamous scumbags were all Theists.

 

Name one Atheist on the same scale of monster-magnitude. I challenge you.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by timesjoke

All you have to do is look at what happened each time an Athiest got control of an army to see how they are 100 times more destructive to this world than any religion.

 

Posted by Phantom:

I completely agree with this and can prove it with statistics. A common canard is 'Religion has caused more death than anything else and religion has been the cause of more wars than anything else.' When in actuality atheist/secular regimes have killed more people (over 100 million) in the last century than all religious conflicts combined throughout the known ages.

 

Please present your statistics in support of this claim Phantom, but first present your argument succinctly.

 

Loose "secular regimes". Are you saying that it is Atheists who have caused millions to be killed in mankinds wars hitherto?

[timesjoke]

Covering your ears and going "la, la, la, la" will not magically transorm there Athiest killers into somethign else just to make you feel better.

 

Case in point:

 

Hitler:

 

Hitler had an outward appearance of following christian beliefs but he truly was only using religion as a tool, like a screwdriver used to break into a home. The screwdriver is not evil in it's misues and neither is religion.

 

Hitler's true belief was revealed in secrete meetings with his inner circle. One of these meetings was recorded and later turned into a book titled "Hitler's Table Talk ". Here he felt no pressures to pretend one way or the other. In these meetingas about the murder of millions of Jews were discussed, why fear free speaking about his beliefs?

 

 

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

 

The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity

 

 

Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things

 

 

10th October, 1941, midday

 

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.

 

 

14th October, 1941, midday

 

Christianity <is> the liar

 

19th October, 1941, night

 

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

 

13th December, 1941, midnight

 

When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.

 

9th April, 1942, dinner

 

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity.

 

27th February, 1942, midday

 

I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie

 

 

Hitler was clearly an Athiest and guess what, if you read Richard Dawkins book, you will read words almost exactly the same as Hitler is saying here. You will hear people like sheik parrot these same attacks against Christians, it is all connected, it is all the true hostile attitude athiests have against anyone with faith.

[Phantom]

You have missed my point, or did you dodge it ?

 

Apparently I did miss your point. Either that or you missed mine. There are cases of amputees being healed. For the ones that weren't, I would need to know their specific cases and circumstances. What faith do they hold and to whom did they pray?

 

Strange how I'm never there to bear witness when the sky-faerie comes calling and validating.

 

I pray one day that you will. Honestly.

 

I meant that for you, religion may be a good thing as it may help you through your life. But in other ways I see it as an insidious evil.

 

Atheism is not without its flaws either. Can you acknowledge the harm atheistic regimes have done in the world and the effects Darwinism has had in history?

 

Coercing little kids with tales of eternal suffering unless they stop thinking, and just blindly believe in this rubbish, should not be allowed.

 

Blind faith is not a Biblical concept. The Bible emphatically encourages us to question everything and refers to those who does so as being wise.

 

For myself I can only say that I am against indoctrination of children by theists of any stripe.

 

That's fair. As long as you only speak for your own children and not anyone else's.

 

Atheism is not indoctrination. Atheists do not seek money or power, and have no wish to instill fear in others.

 

I STRONGLY disagree. It is most definitely indoctrination. Furthermore, they most certainly do. I have looked into this for the past eight months. Indoctrination and money and power abuse out the whazoo.

[Phantom]

Quote:

Name one Atheist on the same scale of monster-magnitude. I challenge you.

 

Sheik, you will have to forgive me for my brevity. I have already discussed all of your above issues in great depth in the link below. The thread is 83 pages and even some of the most hardcore atheists on that site eventually conceded many of Bigwhammy's and my points:

 

Are Atheists Air Brushing History?, page 1

 

The mass atheist murderers, the religions of Stalin, Hitler, etc., the statistics of death tolls under atheist regimes, the canard about religion being more dangerous than atheism, your request for statistics, your statement atheist do not indoctrinate their children, your claim atheists aren't in it for money and power, etc... all of that is proven/debunked/provided/answered in the above link with external sources, evidence, and statistics. I see no need to rehash the off topic banter in this thread.

[timesjoke]

Nice thread Phantom, I skimmed it and read a few posts, seems very well broken down, I will get back to it when I have enough time to read it all, thanks.

[eddo]

Strange how I'm never there to bear witness when the sky-faerie comes calling and validating.

 

funny, I rarely seem to see things that I'm not really looking for...

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

Apparently I did miss your point. Either that or you missed mine. There are cases of amputees being healed. For the ones that weren't, I would need to know their specific cases and circumstances. What faith do they hold and to whom did they pray? .

 

I dont think you missed my point at all. You dodged it, just as you are doing it again. I am asking you on behalf of Christians to prove this rubbish about miracles being performed by your god. The word to adhere too from here on in is "miracles" and not "healing". Healing happens naturally and is not indicative of any supernatural input.

 

You would like to encumber me with all the evidence gathering of specific cases and circumstances of your gods supernatural failures as well as miracle successes ? But surely you can do all this alongside all your other "scientific method" ?

 

If you are going to engage this study, then surely you need to report the whole findings. You are seeming to be less creditable, as you selectively avoid that data that does not support the performance of your god.

 

Undoubtedly there are a great many amputees, non of which have had miracles performed for them. None of them have grown new limbs. Not even one. If limb re-growing ever becomes possible, it will be done by doctors and bio-chemists.

 

 

 

I pray one day that you will. Honestly..

 

Desist. I dont want you praying so that I can become mentally ill. I dont want to see faeries.

 

 

 

Atheism is not without its flaws either. Can you acknowledge the harm atheistic regimes have done in the world and the effects Darwinism has had in history?.

 

I see no harm done by Darwinism, and other real science. It is ignorance and adherence to harmful nonsense that is injurious to humanity. Not the truth of real science.

 

 

 

Blind faith is not a Biblical concept. The Bible emphatically encourages us to question everything and refers to those who does so as being wise. .

 

Blind faith is a biblical concept. Adherents are encouraged to simply belief and obey, not to think.

 

Consider some of the thoughtless laws in your old testament, which call for the murder of homosexuals, sex-workers, and disobedient children.

 

 

 

I STRONGLY disagree. It is most definitely indoctrination. Furthermore, they most certainly do. I have looked into this for the past eight months. Indoctrination and money and power abuse out the whazoo.

 

No. Those who wish to indoctrinate you always want to make you believe something. Atheists are not trying to make you believe in anything. They simply wish for you to understand that you are brain washed. Almost certainly, there is no god.

[timesjoke]

No. Those who wish to indoctrinate you always want to make you believe something. Atheists are not trying to make you believe in anything. They simply wish for you to understand that you are brain washed. Almost certainly, there is no god.

 

 

Athiests preach evolution as truth.

 

Genetic science has proven evolution as impossible years ago.

[Guest sheik-yerbouti]

The mass atheist murderers, the religions of Stalin, Hitler, etc., .

 

This is just nonsense and you know it.

 

Hitler was a baptised christian. He never renounced his christianity. He was the commander in Chief of the Nazi Party, and Nazi Germany. He is ultimately reponsible for the deaths of 20 million Russians, 12 million Jews and all the other Nazi victims. These evil deeds were caused by a theist/s.

 

Not sure about Stalin, but he was probably a theist too. So was Pol Pot, and Mao, and most, if not all of the other modern organised mass killers were theists too.

[timesjoke]

If he was not blocking me he would have seen the posts where I proved him wrong about Hitler before he ever said a word. This is typical of the Athiest mindset where they wear blinders to insulate their belief structure.

 

 

But, he is not blocking Phantom, the link she provided was very good and gave facts and numbers that very clearly prove her possition. Sheik will not take the time to look at what that thread has to offer because that is just another kind of self protection, more blinders imposed to insulate his mind from reality.

 

 

Yes, to a certain degree religious people do this too, it is most likely a basic human trait to desire to see yourself as right and everyone else as wrong. This is where faith and God comes in to give us understanding to accurately see past our desires and selfishness and see the truth, not our perceptions.

 

 

People with faith are not perfect, they are still human, they just have a different measuring stick.

[Phantom]

I dont think you missed my point at all. You dodged it, just as you are doing it again. I am asking you on behalf of Christians to prove this rubbish about miracles being performed by your god. The word to adhere too from here on in is "miracles" and not "healing". Healing happens naturally and is not indicative of any supernatural input.

 

Ok, I see what you are saying. No need to accuse anyone of 'dodging the question.' You kept focusing on amputees so I assumed you were wanting an answer for the famous atheist question, 'Why doesn't God heal amputees?' As for 'proving' miracles are from God like we did with the scientific method video. I would have to think about how to do that one. I believe they are from God and have received personal evidence of this but how can it be proven through science to the skeptic?

 

If we try this, it would certainly seem like we would be left with the logical fallacy known as assuming the consequent. And that is: X happened (prayer to God), Y happened (a miracle occurred), therefore it must have been Z (God). Therefore, assuming the consequent. And if you do not believe in the consequent (God) (and you appear to not only disbelieve, but instead willfully disbelieve [more on this in a moment]), then there is nothing, absolutely nothing, I would be able to do to show you otherwise. You might balk but that is the honest truth and you are asking me to commit a logical fallacy that is impossible to win. If you deny the consequent from the onset, there is no amount of evidence that would convince you. More on this below.

 

If you are going to engage this study, then surely you need to report the whole findings. You are seeming to be less creditable, as you selectively avoid that data that does not support the performance of your god.

 

Why- because you said so? I have had much experience dealing with people like you. By that I mean ardent disbelievers- not simply those who can't believe or are still looking- but those like you who would refuse to believe and don't want to believe. You give yourself away further below.

 

You are also using a VERY common deflection tactic that atheists are known for. There is a reason why that link I sent you to is 83 pages. And that is, every time the atheists got owned, refuted, debunked, or something they asked of us was proven, they would just throw another objection into the works. That is why so many things I already described on the previous page in my reply to you are in that thread. As soon as we thoroughly refuted one of their arguments, they would toss another deflection attempt in and the thread and it would go on forever.

 

So again I say, you will need to check out that link. Hitler was NOT a Christian. Stalin was NOT a Christian, Mao was NOT a Christian, atheist regimes killed more people in the last century than religion ever did, atheists do attempt to indoctrinate and seek control, etc., etc. This is not just supposition- this was proven with hard core facts. Check it out if you are genuinely interested in receiving an answer. Or remain in your ignorance. I don't really care either way- as long as you stop asking me questions that have already been answered repeatedly.

 

Undoubtedly there are a great many amputees, non of which have had miracles performed for them. None of them have grown new limbs. Not even one. If limb re-growing ever becomes possible, it will be done by doctors and bio-chemists.

 

See, this is why I kept getting confused. Here you are back on the amputee issue. Either focus on general miracles or specific miracles but don't shift the goal posts and then accuse me of dodging your questions.

 

Desist. I dont want you praying so that I can become mentally ill. I dont want to see faeries.

 

On one hand I want to say the way you close yourself off from knowledge is astounding to me. I am the type who wants to know, has to know, and needs to know. Sticking my fingers in my ears and going, 'Lalala' isn't something I'm capable of. Yet, on the other hand I want to thank you for your honesty. Most atheists won't admit such a thing. They claim they are open minded and want evidence of God if He truly does exist- but then ignore everything presented to them, resort to personal attacks, come up with the silliest objections a five year old could have answered for them, etc. At least your honest about your head-in-the-sand approach.

 

I see no harm done by Darwinism, and other real science. It is ignorance and adherence to harmful nonsense that is injurious to humanity. Not the truth of real science.

 

You give away your ignorance, my dear. Darwinism is not mutually exclusive with evolution. If you ever want to get into an evolution debate, let's go for it. This is a thread of mine on the subject. It is also a biggie- 74 pages:

 

The Gullibility of Evolutionists, page 74

 

The atheists simply couldn't behave themselves so this is another thread filled with personal attacks and deflection attempts. Evolution on a macro scale is not real science- it fails to pass the tests of the scientific method. However, that is neither here nor there. Evolution is the science, Darwinism is the philosophical, godless outlook. Evolution is compatible with some religions, Darwinism is not. It is a secular philosophy that also uses science while evolution is [allegedly] only science and [supposedly] does not try to answer the 'God' issue.

 

Blind faith is a biblical concept. Adherents are encouraged to simply belief and obey, not to think.

 

This is why I hate haggling with atheists. They criticize the faith, and some even hate it, yet they don't even know what we believe. lol Anyways- no we are not. We are told to question, reason, and judge all things in our mind. Those who do are described clearly as 'wise' and those who don't are clearly described as 'foolish.' I try to not cite Bible passages to atheists because their reaction to being provided with Bible citations is often the equivalent of a vampire being introduced to holy water but if you want, I will back this all up with Scripture.

 

Consider some of the thoughtless laws in your old testament, which call for the murder of homosexuals, sex-workers, and disobedient children.

 

Another deflection attempt that is brought up in just about every debate between Christians and atheists. If you cannot grasp the concept between the Old Covenant Law and New Covenant Grace then I cannot help you.

 

No. Those who wish to indoctrinate you always want to make you believe something. Atheists are not trying to make you believe in anything. They simply wish for you to understand that you are brain washed.

 

You apparently have not studied this topic as much as I have done. Read the works of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc. I know you are trying to get under my skin by repeatedly using the words 'brainwashed,' 'sky fairy,' etc., but I assure you I have heard much, much worse. The petty insults don't faze me because I know what I know.

 

Almost certainly, there is no god.

 

You would have to be omniscient and/or omnipresent to be certain. You're not so you can't. Take care.

[Phantom]

This is just nonsense and you know it.

 

Hitler was a baptised christian. He never renounced his christianity. He was the commander in Chief of the Nazi Party, and Nazi Germany. He is ultimately reponsible for the deaths of 20 million Russians, 12 million Jews and all the other Nazi victims. These evil deeds were caused by a theist/s.

 

Not sure about Stalin, but he was probably a theist too. So was Pol Pot, and Mao, and most, if not all of the other modern organised mass killers were theists too.

 

'Never teach a man who is not willing to learn.'

 

For the fourth and final time, the link provided will thoroughly refute your claims with facts and evidence. Hitler was about as much of a Christian as some of the popes during the dark ages. Just because you claim to be a Christian to control or manipulate the masses does not mean you are. Please quit claiming this canard. It is long since debunked with proof.

[Phantom]

II proved him wrong about Hitler before he ever said a word. This is typical of the Athiest mindset where they wear blinders to insulate their belief structure.

 

 

But, he is not blocking Phantom, the link she provided was very good and gave facts and numbers that very clearly prove her possition. Sheik will not take the time to look at what that thread has to offer because that is just another kind of self protection, more blinders imposed to insulate his mind from reality.

 

Sadly, I agree. I personally don't understand such behavior because it would seem most people would thirst for knowledge and the truth. I truly don't understand those who simply don't know- but actually admit to not wanting to know. Or asking a question, being provided with an answer several times, then asking the question or raising the objection again. Sadly, it happens all the time dealing with such people.

 

Again, 'Never teach a man who doesn't want to learn.'

 

I won't lie- I was pretty much expecting something like this to happen with this this thread. It happens every time and is pretty predictable behavior. Can't remember if our intelligence has been insulted yet but if not, it will happen. They have to use that accusation for some reason. lol We have the brainwashed accusation, the sky fairy insult, the 'Hitler was a Christian' canard, and the incorrect statement religion has caused more harm than anything else among humanity, etc.

 

It is pretty impossible for atheists to stick to the topic when dealing with spiritual evidence. The same tactics are employed over and over again to the point I could sit at my desk with a check list checking off their inevitable strategies one by one as they occur. lol

[timesjoke]

I don't mind people believing what thye want to believe internally, but the hostility Athiests bring to the discussion proves they do not have an open mind.

 

I touch on this a little with this thread:

http://Off Topic Forum.com/on-topic-bs/27519-perceptions.html#post71438

 

Sometimes we cannot see the truth because our minds are too well trained to not see certain things.

[wez]

I was thinking... with all the talk about our ridiculous econonomy, race wars and end of the world prophesies.. could our 3 digit credit score be "the mark of the beast"?

 

Pretty sure it'll include everyone on the planet sooner or later.. the ability to buy and sell..

[Phantom]

I was thinking... with all the talk about our ridiculous econonomy, race wars and end of the world prophesies.. could our 3 digit credit score be "the mark of the beast"?

 

Pretty sure it'll include everyone on the planet sooner or later.. the ability to buy and sell..

 

There is already technology capable of doing this. An interesting factoid is that the chip that is embedded in the body is ran on a lithium battery. Studies have shown when the lithium leaks into the body, the embedded person forms boil-like lesions. Interestingly enough, the Bible describes those with the mark breaking out in sores all over their body.

 

So I believe the technology will be something more similar to this- an actual embedded chip that combines the banking, health information, etc., instead of a basic credit or identity card.

[wez]

I don't mind people believing what thye want to believe internally, but the hostility Athiests bring to the discussion proves they do not have an open mind.

 

Sometimes we cannot see the truth because our minds are too well trained to not see certain things.

 

 

Who's we?

 

And what does the hostility you bring to a discussion prove?

[wez]

There is already technology capable of doing this. An interesting factoid is that the chip that is embedded in the body is ran on a lithium battery. Studies have shown when the lithium leaks into the body, the embedded person forms boil-like lesions. Interestingly enough, the Bible describes those with the mark breaking out in sores all over their body.

 

So I believe the technology will be something more similar to this- an actual embedded chip that combines the banking, health information, etc., instead of a basic credit or identity card.

 

Do you think it would actually have to be a physical number embedded on a person to make the prophesy come true? Couldn't it just be a number attached to a person.. like a credit score? Or SS#?

[wez]

We are gonna enter a time of tight credit.. prolly about as extreme as money was easy all those years prior.. A credit score under ??? will exclude a lot of people for a long time who got used to EZ credit for everything from houses to groceries..

 

Or if you know people that have no credit... people who cheat on their taxes and such.. getting pretty close to needing the "mark" to buy and sell already..

 

Or maybe just a chipped card people carry? Can't see too many people willingly agreeing to an implant..

 

And if that's the case.. aint gonna happen in my mortal lifetime.

[Phantom]

Do you think it would actually have to be a physical number embedded on a person to make the prophesy come true? Couldn't it just be a number attached to a person.. like a credit score? Or SS#?

 

No. It does not have to be a specific number. 666 is the number of 'the beast.' Not of the mark.