Palin tries to defend qualifications in interview

[Anna Perenna]

Well you don't have to have a gun. Nobodies making you keep one in your house. However my rights to deafened myself should not be infringed because you think by some miracle we could eradicate evil to where we wouldn't need them. Keep on dreaming baby.

 

Second you can play label and word games but we both know where each others heads are at.

 

I was merely stating my differing opinion, not attacking you or 'playing games'.

 

Try to refrain from attacking me.

[snafu]

I was merely stating my differing opinion, not attacking you or 'playing games'.

 

Try to refrain from attacking me.

 

 

I didn't mean to attack you. I apologize.

 

My point was with your comment of pro-choice as apposed to pro-abortion has no difference. Now you can refine your comment but it will still come down to the taking of a life.

[ImWithStupid]

I didn't mean to attack you. I apologize.

 

My point was with your comment of pro-choice as apposed to pro-abortion has no difference. Now you can refine your comment but it will still come down to the taking of a life.

 

I'm thinking she may be like me. I personally would never choose to abort a fetus and wish there were more requrements on the situations that it was to be done (I personally view, rape, incest and medical necessity the only reasons). However until it is determined to be illegal otherwise, I don't feel I have the right to tell someone else what they can or can't do.

 

Like you said Snaf, just because someone has the right to have a gun doesn't mean they are required to have one, and just because someone understands that someone has the choice of abortion doesn't mean they support abortion.

[snafu]

I'm thinking she may be like me. I personally would never choose to abort a fetus and wish there were more requirements on the situations that it was to be done (I personally view, rape, incest and medical necessity the only reasons). However until it is determined to be illegal otherwise, I don't feel I have the right to tell someone else what they can or can't do.

 

Like you said Snaf, just because someone has the right to have a gun doesn't mean they are required to have one, and just because someone understands that someone has the choice of abortion doesn't mean they support abortion.

 

No but it means that women will have abortions and will kill innocent human beings. That's not a right of choice.

Even in the cases of rape or incest.

[Anna Perenna]

I didn't mean to attack you. I apologize.

 

My point was with your comment of pro-choice as apposed to pro-abortion has no difference. Now you can refine your comment but it will still come down to the taking of a life.

 

That's cool, thanks for the apology.

 

As for it still coming down to the taking of a life - not necessarily. Many women these days choose NOT to have abortions. The world still has an over-population problem last I checked

 

In reply to your atheism comment:

 

• 
  only 33% of the world's population is Christian and though God may play a big part in people's personal lives, God shouldn't be a factor in governmental policy
  

[snafu]

That's cool, thanks for the apology.

 

As for it still coming down to the taking of a life - not necessarily. Many women these days choose NOT to have abortions. The world still has an over-population problem last I checked

 

In reply to your atheism comment:

 

• 
  only 33% of the world's population is Christian and though God may play a big part in people's personal lives, God shouldn't be a factor in governmental policy
  

 

Didn't say anything about Christianity. I said 16% of the world is atheist. That means 84% of the world believes in some form of a higher power thus makes religion a factor in politics.

[ImWithStupid]

No but it means that women will have abortions and will kill innocent human beings. That's not a right of choice.

Even in the cases of rape or incest.

 

Under the current laws it is the right of choice. Legality and morality are two different things. Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's moral.

 

Where I differ on "choice" is where there is a double standard when it comes to men and women. That's were the issue falls into the whole inequality thing.

 

Women have all the control and can screw men out of their "choice" at the drop of a hat, without fear, when it comes to "choice".

 

With considerable risk of opening up wounds, I'll link to another thread where I feel Brotherman explained the double standard best...

 

http://Off Topic Forum.com/free-for-all/1234-abortion-smoothie-7.html#post16274

[Anna Perenna]

No but it means that women will have abortions and will kill innocent human beings. That's not a right of choice.

Even in the cases of rape or incest.

 

I think you'd feel differently if men were the ones who had to carry babies to term.

 

You have to sacrifice your internal organs, your entire body, your health, your mental faculties, your hormones and you have to put up with pain, morning sickness, etc.

 

Pregnancy is not an easy thing to go through. Men can't possibly understand it and it seriously bothers me that Sarah Palin as a woman is so heartless about it. No woman should be forced to go through with it if she isn't ready, isn't prepared and certainly not if her pregnancy was the result of a traumatic experience.

 

Women shouldn't be expected to be martyrs.

 

And would you want a foetus to be brought to term just to be 'brought up' by someone who simply does not want to be a parent? I think their subsequent quality of life as a result of being born needs to be considered too.

[Anna Perenna]

Didn't say anything about Christianity. I said 16% of the world is atheist. That means 84% of the world believes in some form of a higher power thus makes religion a factor in politics.

 

Yes but Christianity seems to be the only acceptable religion in US politics.

 

On a side note: just because kids believe in Santa Claus doesn't mean he should be a factor in the education system.

[ImWithStupid]

 

Women shouldn't be expected to be martyrs.

 

And would you want a foetus to be brought to term just to be 'brought up' by someone who simply does not want to be a parent? I think their subsequent quality of life as a result of being born needs to be considered too.

 

So why should a man, who isn't ready, have to be responsible financially for 19 years without a say in the "choice"?

[ImWithStupid]

Yes but Christianity seems to be the only acceptable religion in US politics.

 

On a side note: just because kids believe in Santa Claus doesn't mean he should be a factor in the education system.

 

Actually Christians are the only religion that isn't allowed to be "offended" by attacks in US Politics.

[Anna Perenna]

Typical situations:

Situation A: Mother doesn't want child, Father doesn't want child.

Decision to terminate made by both.

No legal consequences.

 

Situation B: Mother doesn't want child, Father wants child.

Mother decides to terminate anyway.

Father loses out with no option.

No legal consequences.

 

Situation C: Mother wants child, Father does not want child.

Mother has child.

Father pays half his paycheck to child support for at least 18 years.

 

Situation D: Mother wants child, Father does not want child.

Father causes abortion.

Father spends the rest of his life in jail.

Woman moves on.

 

 

Some 'typical situations' Brother Man conveniently forgot:

 

Situation E: Mother wants child, Father pretends to want child

Mother has the child

Father can't hack it and leaves - becomes typical deadbeat dad

Father absconds from child support payments and leaves mother to be an impoverished single mum

 

Situation F: Mother wants child, Father doesn't want child

Father pressures mother to have an abortion

Mother is sad for the rest of her life

 

Situation G: Mother doesn't want child, Father wants child

Father pressures mother to have the child

Mother suffers from post natal depression - father is typically insensitive and unsupportive and resorts to criticising mother

Father is a crappy dad anyway

 

That's REALITY. I'm so sick of delusional, sexist, one-sided views on this issue.

[Anna Perenna]

So why should a man, who isn't ready, have to be responsible financially for 19 years without a say in the "choice"?

 

Hmm, that's a good point. Like I said in the original abortion thread, there needs to be some considerations/legislation put in place to help mediate in tricky situations like these.

[snafu]

Some 'typical situations' Brother Man conveniently forgot:

 

Situation E: Mother wants child, Father pretends to want child

Mother has the child

Father can't hack it and leaves - becomes typical deadbeat dad

Father absconds from child support payments and leaves mother to be an impoverished single mum

 

Situation F: Mother wants child, Father doesn't want child

Father pressures mother to have an abortion

Mother is sad for the rest of her life

 

Situation G: Mother doesn't want child, Father wants child

Father pressures mother to have the child

Mother suffers from post natal depression - father is typically insensitive and unsupportive and resorts to criticising mother

Father is a crappy dad anyway

 

That's REALITY. I'm so sick of delusional, sexist, one-sided views on this issue.

 

Mother suffers from post natal derpression? Oh brother. what a load of crap! What about post natal mudrer depression? give me a break.

Nobody is telling the mother she has to keep the baby.

[Anna Perenna]

Actually Christians are the only religion that isn't allowed to be "offended" by attacks in US Politics.

 

Ahh, I meant that all presidential candidates, democratic and republican alike, make sure everyone knows they are a Christian.

[Anna Perenna]

Nobody is telling the mother she has to keep the baby.

 

Oh dear. Are you sure about that?

[snafu]

Some 'typical situations' Brother Man conveniently forgot:

 

Situation E: Mother wants child, Father pretends to want child

Mother has the child

Father can't hack it and leaves - becomes typical deadbeat dad

Father absconds from child support payments and leaves mother to be an impoverished single mum

 

Situation F: Mother wants child, Father doesn't want child

Father pressures mother to have an abortion

Mother is sad for the rest of her life

 

Situation G: Mother doesn't want child, Father wants child

Father pressures mother to have the child

Mother suffers from post natal depression - father is typically insensitive and unsupported and resorts to criticizing mother

Father is a crappy dad anyway

 

That's REALITY. I'm so sick of delusional, sexist, one-sided views on this issue.

 

Mother suffers from post natal depression? Oh brother. what a load of crap! What about post natal murderer depression? give me a break.

Nobody is telling the mother she has to keep the baby.

And that was a pretty sexist remark about fathers being insensitive and supportive.

[ImWithStupid]

Some 'typical situations' Brother Man conveniently forgot:

 

Situation E: Mother wants child, Father pretends to want child

Mother has the child

Father can't hack it and leaves - becomes typical deadbeat dad

Father absconds from child support payments and leaves mother to be an impoverished single mum

 

Not much different than the scenerio where he pays child support. Most mother's getting support still milks the system, on the taxpayer, for low income housing, tuition, whatever. What's the guy who gives up his money get for the baby being born. Nothing. By the way, in my state anyway, if she gets aid from the state, they track down dad and garnish his wages for child support.

 

Situation F: Mother wants child, Father doesn't want child

Father pressures mother to have an abortion

Mother is sad for the rest of her life

 

She still had the "choice". Could have left the relationship. The man doesn't have that luxury. She could run off and have the kid whether he wanted one or not and the court will be on the mother's side, track him down and garnish his wages.

 

Situation G: Mother doesn't want child, Father wants child

Father pressures mother to have the child

Mother suffers from post natal depression - father is typically insensitive and unsupportive and resorts to criticising mother

Father is a crappy dad anyway

 

Still sounds like she had a choice to me.

[Anna Perenna]

She still had the "choice". Could have left the relationship. The man doesn't have that luxury. She could run off and have the kid whether he wanted one or not and the court will be on the mother's side, track him down and garnish his wages.

 

Ok, but let's weigh up his situation (out of pocket) to her situation (she doesn't want a child but is pressured by society/whoever/whatever to have the baby. She has to raise a child alone. It is an incredibly hard life)

 

Women still end up getting a rawer deal than men, in any comparison.

 

And if men are really so disgruntled about merely having to pay (and it's generally not a huge amount, anyway) to help raise a child, then perhaps they should abstain from having sex with women.

[timesjoke]

An abortion is the action done to escape taking responsibility for the "choice" already made to have dangerious sexual contact by both parties.

 

 

I get so irritated by people who claim women should have the ringht to choose, well she does have the right tho choose, choose not to have unprotected sex.

 

 

If someone drinks and drives then kills someone, they can't just go to the doctor to have their mistake cut out of them, so why should women be allowed to murder a life just because their "choice" did not go the way they thought it would?

 

 

The fastest growing segment of society is single, never wed mothers. The average abortion is to women who already have children and have never been married. It sounds to me like these women are making the same bad "choice" over and over to have risky sex with guys who are not very reliable.

[ImWithStupid]

Ok, but let's weigh up his situation (out of pocket) to her situation (she doesn't want a child but is pressured by society/whoever/whatever to have the baby. She has to raise a child alone. It is an incredibly hard life)

 

Women still end up getting a rawer deal than men, in any comparison.

 

And if men are really so disgruntled about merely having to pay (and it's generally not a huge amount, anyway) to help raise a child, then perhaps they should abstain from having sex with women.

 

So, men should have to abstain from sex to avoid paying for a baby but women shouldn't have to abstain because she can just decide to kill the baby. Sounds fair.

[timesjoke]

 

father is typically insensitive and unsupportive and resorts to criticising mother

Father is a crappy dad anyway.

 

 

I just have to comment on this.

 

The 'father' does not completely change his character out of nowhere. If he is the type to be unsupportive or a deadbeat as a father then he is the same way before the woman has unprotected sex with him. Maybe if the woman was a little more selective about who she spread her legs for, (in an unprotected way) she might be able to avoid these kinds of situations before they happen and avoid the killing of an innocent baby.

 

A real discussion I had with a woman I know:

 

w=woman

T=me

 

W- Damn, my ex has dissapeared and is late on his support now I am getting late notices from some bills I can't pay.

 

T- Just curious, before things went south between you two, did he have a great job?

 

W- Not really, he worked construction and odd side jobs but never really settled down to make a career.

 

T- Was he really honest or dishonest with people you knew?

 

W- No, he was always screwing people over and I know he would sometimes take money to do jobs then never do the job, stuff like that.

 

T- So he was always a real scumbag?

 

W- Hell yes, he is scum and always has been!

 

T- So why did you make a baby with him?

 

 

W- Stunned What are you trying to say?

 

T- All I am saying is you knew he was not the most reliable man in the word before getting pregnant with him so don't act surprised now when he continues acting the same way with this.

 

 

W- But........

[snafu]

You can have my baby Anna. I promise no post natal depression.

[Anna Perenna]

but women shouldn't have to abstain because she can just decide to kill the baby. Sounds fair.

 

No woman I have ever known could 'just decide' to have an abortion. You're not a woman, you're not biologically able to have babies, and you don't understand what women go through.

 

And like I've said before - it's her body. She should be allowed to decide what happens to it.

 

Unfortunately men rape women every day around the world - in fact, if you look at the statistics, there are several women being raped as I write this - so these women have no choice what happens to them in that case.

 

I'm not going to deny them any other choices when it comes to their own bodies.

 

You can have my baby Anna. I promise no post natal depression.

 

Thanks Snaf. I wouldn't mind having your kids, actually - I already know how cool your daughter is

[eddo]

And like I've said before - it's her body. She should be allowed to decide what happens to it

 

What about the baby's body?

 

 

 

Unfortunately men rape women every day around the world - in fact, if you look at the statistics, there are several women being raped as I write this - so these women have no choice what happens to them in that case.

 

This is relevant, but only in less than 2% of all abortions in the US. (I know you love outside the US Anna, but this is real stats that we can look at)

http://www.abortiontv.com

 

The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.U.S. Abortion Statistics, U.S. State abortion statistics, by Race, by Age, Worldwide abortion statistics, teen abortion statistics

 

Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;

 

This one is a bit older, but it echos the findings:

http://query.nytimes.com

Indeed, in a 1987 survey by the Alan Guttmacher Institute in which abortion patients were asked why they were having an abortion, only 1 percent of the 1,900 women questioned named rape or incest. And 95 percent of those who mentioned rape or incest named other reasons as well for deciding to abort, the institute said.

 

In 1987 that 1% is out of of 1.3-1.5 million abortions.

 

 

 

Abortion as a form of birth control, is- in my opinion- disgusting and unnecessary.