This Really Frightens Me

[snafu]

Once Obama's plan fails we will go to war. Probably with Iran. That will stimulate the economy and save his ass for another 4 years.

[wez]

Yeah.. things were fanfukkingtastic til Obama was elected.. All's we need is another "republican" administration..

[ImWithStupid]

Now who's sqwaking out the talking points that gets blurbed.

 

And as for tax cuts, it's amazing it worked for JFK, Reagan, and W.

 

You know what Hoover/FDR, Eisenhower, and Carter didn't try? Tax cuts.

 

You know what Hoover/FDR and Eisenhower did try and failed. Government spending on government projects.

The assumption is that the New Deal vanquished the Depression. Intelligent, informed people differ about why the Depression lasted so long. But people whose recipe for recovery today is another New Deal should remember that America's biggest industrial collapse occurred in 1937, eight years after the 1929 stock market crash and nearly five years into the New Deal. In 1939, after a decade of frantic federal spending -- President Herbert Hoover increased it more than 50 percent between 1929 and the inauguration of Franklin Roosevelt -- unemployment was 17.2 percent.

 

"I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started," lamented Henry Morgenthau, FDR's Treasury secretary. Unemployment declined when America began selling materials to nations engaged in a war America would soon join.

George F. Will - Economically, Obama May Repeat FDR's Mistakes - washingtonpost.com

[snafu]

Yeah.. things were fanfukkingtastic til Obama was elected.. All's we need is another "republican"..

 

wez did you watch those clips IWS posted in the other thread? It wasn't Bushes tax cuts that put us where we are. Even Democrats will contest to that. It was BIG GOVERNMENT! It was a democratic Senate that made the banks give out bad loans that crashed the economy. It was Obama himself being the second largest beneficiary in contributions from Fannie May and Freddie Mac that got us to where we are today!! fanfukkingtastic!

[ImWithStupid]

Yeah.. things were fanfukkingtastic til Obama was elected.. All's we need is another "republican" administration..

 

As far as the last administration, it might have been a President who was a Republican, but it was far from an administration that believed in "conservative" ideals.

 

You know wez, I was so trying to ignore your ignorance on the economy, but since we did have not only seven years of growth under Bush, despite the recession he came into, the downturn after 9/11 and such, we added 6 million jobs and the Dow Jones went from 9 thousand to 13 thousand until the "housing bubble" burst. The same housing bubble that was caused by the Dems starting under Carter, doubled up under Clinton and any Republican attempt to reighn in this catastrophe was blocked by Dems, it's somehow a Republican issue.

 

There are threads after threads of proof from CSPAN and print media proving that Republicans tried over and over to fix Fanny and Freddie, only to be blocked and stopped in commitee by the heads of those commitees, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd (who amazingly enough, along with Barack Obama, were the biggest benefactors of contributions by these companies) and killed any attempt to be advanced out of commitee.

 

Now when it's too late to prevent the fallout, the Republicans want to introduce legislation that will help keep these people in their homes, the Dems vote it down, and instead want to use that money to build frisbee parks and give ACORN 4.1 billion dollars on top of the 300 million per year they were given by Dems in the TARP bill.

 

Please educate yourself.

[Guest eisanbt]

As far as the last administration, it might have been a President who was a Republican, but it was far from an administration that believed in "conservative" ideals.

 

You know wez, I was so trying to ignore your ignorance on the economy, but since we did have not only seven years of growth under Bush, despite the recession he came into, the downturn after 9/11 and such, we added 6 million jobs and the Dow Jones went from 9 thousand to 13 thousand until the "housing bubble" burst. The same housing bubble that was caused by the Dems starting under Carter, doubled up under Clinton and any Republican attempt to reighn in this catastrophe was blocked by Dems, it's somehow a Republican issue.

 

Stock and GDP growth are pretty questionable measures of growth. The GDP ignores such things as resource replacement, and stocks as stock may grow, the money does not tumble its way down to the masses. The poverty gap grows, with severe poverty in the lead, and even many who 'have' (commonly seen as middle class) find themselves in world of debt and under, though perhaps not officially, the blanket of 'poverty'. Though I find any of these sources somewhat suspect (even those I might make reference to), more to the point; I see too much poverty and too many hummer-limos to ignore.

 

Economic freedom, political freedom, and their commonly espoused definitions seem to me to be based on very shallow understandings of how we effect one another. You have freedom to do whatever you want with your doctor, and you've the money to back it up; well isn't that darling. If you're incessant demand on the market for a cool new liver and endless wonder drugs to keep you happily sedated means that basic assistance becomes beyond my humble reach, then when I needs it, orI need food or any of these other essentials, then don't expect me to just die off and leave you alone with you're rocket car and moon-pies.

 

Any intelligence, or physical prowess, or strength of will I have, I was lucky enough in my circumstance to receive. I didn't have crack shoved in my face by my friends, family, wacko-s on the street. I had enough self-discipline and caring instilled in me to keep me stable and give me a capacity to choose my growth path etc etc... Not everyone was afforded such luxuries, and though its not on me to coddle them (which can be awful dis-empowering; teach a man to fish and all that), it is up to our large-societies, until we're smart enough to get rid of such massive and destructive things and take care of each other as communities (those people we more knowingly/ willing affect), to try and balance out the power distribution (see Canadian farmers vs agro-corporations for a gross example of this) and see that people's needs are met.

 

Conversely, government should stop all social programs and those angry/ abused dogs that make up the majority of this world will no longer be 'Just-sedated-enough' and tear this er down into a silly chaos continent... until the Red Army rolls in for a pie-grab (or some other silly scenario). But I suppose so long as that isn't happening then government programs are humming along merrily.

[snafu]

Stock and GDP growth are pretty questionable measures of growth. The GDP ignores such things as resource replacement, and stocks as stock may grow, the money does not tumble its way down to the masses. The poverty gap grows, with severe poverty in the lead, and even many who 'have' (commonly seen as middle class) find themselves in world of debt and under, though perhaps not officially, the blanket of 'poverty'. Though I find any of these sources somewhat suspect (even those I might make reference to), more to the point; I see too much poverty and too many hummer-limos to ignore.

 

Economic freedom, political freedom, and their commonly espoused definitions seem to me to be based on very shallow understandings of how we effect one another. You have freedom to do whatever you want with your doctor, and you've the money to back it up; well isn't that darling. If you're incessant demand on the market for a cool new liver and endless wonder drugs to keep you happily sedated means that basic assistance becomes beyond my humble reach, then when I needs it, orI need food or any of these other essentials, then don't expect me to just die off and leave you alone with you're rocket car and moon-pies.

 

Any intelligence, or physical prowess, or strength of will I have, I was lucky enough in my circumstance to receive. I didn't have crack shoved in my face by my friends, family, wacko-s on the street. I had enough self-discipline and caring instilled in me to keep me stable and give me a capacity to choose my growth path etc etc... Not everyone was afforded such luxuries, and though its not on me to coddle them (which can be awful dis-empowering; teach a man to fish and all that), it is up to our large-societies, until we're smart enough to get rid of such massive and destructive things and take care of each other as communities (those people we more knowingly/ willing affect), to try and balance out the power distribution (see Canadian farmers vs agro-corporations for a gross example of this) and see that people's needs are met.

 

Conversely, government should stop all social programs and those angry/ abused dogs that make up the majority of this world will no longer be 'Just-sedated-enough' and tear this er down into a silly chaos continent... until the Red Army rolls in for a pie-grab (or some other silly scenario). But I suppose so long as that isn't happening then government programs are humming along merrily.

 

So you don't believe in personal gain? You’re saying the haves should give to the have nots and this will fix our economy? To an extent I can sympathize with that. The problem is it becomes a life style. You your self made the statement that you were lucky and had the common sense to not have crack shoved in your face. Other people need that type of will power and to throw money at them and keep them on the streets doesn’t cut it. Canada doesn’t have the massive population cities like LA and such. I think our problem is how we keep or cities crammed. Sam Kinnison said it good about the starving people in third world countries. Don’t give them food. Give them luggage! They need to move to where the food is or where the jobs are! Throwing money at them that frankly we don’t have will not solve the problem. Move to Canada if that's where the food is.

 

Ya know I see your point about the Hummers and SUV'S on one side of the town and broken down crack addicts on the other. But you and others in society created this situation. The hip hop, rock star, baseball players, football players that are driving around in those Hummers are getting their money from you and me that pay them for their talents. I for one think their talents don’t warrant such incomes but I didn’t set the bar. If you don’t like seeing them driving around quit buying their products. Or go out, create your own rock band and get your own Humvee.

[snafu]

The reason my family moved to Alaska was that we didn't want to move back to the east cost. When my dad retired from the military we had a family meeting and we all decided to come back to Alaska. There was a better chance of a job and better life style then going back to Lowell or Philadelphia.

 

Thank God that's what we did!

[hugo]

Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell.

Karl Popper

[phreakwars]

So you don't believe in personal gain? You’re saying the haves should give to the have nots and this will fix our economy?

Since when are you or anyone else above the "HAVE NOTS"? You'll have to show me that line in the constitution/bible.

.

.

[Guest eisanbt]

 

Ya know I see your point about the Hummers and SUV'S on one side of the town and broken down crack addicts on the other. But you and others in society created this situation. The hip hop, rock star, baseball players, football players that are driving around in those Hummers are getting their money from you and me that pay them for their talents. I for one think their talents don?t warrant such incomes but I didn?t set the bar. If you don?t like seeing them driving around quit buying their products. Or go out, create your own rock band and get your own Humvee.

 

I agree with the"what can I do" bit, and so I do. I live off of less then $300 a month, and thats just for the basic bills of rent/ power/ phone. My food mostly comes from dumpsters, I brew my booze from the barley, my clothes are either old or liberate from nameless department stores (though generally my clothes are wearable year round, so I don't need much). Books from the library or borrowed from amigos, salvaged bike, hitch hike for long trips etc etc. I'm a minimalist for personal and political reasons (though, of course, there is awlays room for improvement). It is, it some sense, by the actions of those 'below' them that folks are proped up into positions of excess, but those positions existed well before the modern economy. And we must not ignore the power of influence wielded by those same people (I'll say brainwashing just to be simple about it, but I can't think of a more appropriate single word right now...coercion, misdirection, diabolical tickery).

 

Think back to "Come to my castle and buy only my goods or I'll send pirates to pillage and destroy you" days. The modern power dynamic is a product of its past, and there has always been the privileged very few exploiting the simple wants/needs of the majority. I'm not advocating Marxism, or that we should kill Poodles because they're bourgeois, so lets cut that out right now.

 

I believe that governments are the tools of the wealthy and protect their interests above all. The wealthy of this era have learned the follies of out right/ blatant oppression; if you don't toss em a bone from time to time that the dogs will bite your hand off (or in the case of the French, chop you're head off). Social programs, to which ever degree, serve this end. They allow the the dime-for-a-dollar's-work scheme to to carry on, with those who just want friends, family, and happiness being crushed under the clever who want to dominate and build excess. Both of these personality types are a product of our society, and we will, so long as 'civilization' exists, have to try and curb the amount of destruction inflicted by our peers, this approach is short sighted however and doomed to constantly sew self inflicted wounds. But, folks are 'free individuals' and have no sense of social responsibility. This can largely be attributed to deliberate mis-information and lack of exposure to alternatives. For many, the idea of brewing your own booze or hitching or being vegetarian or not having a TV or having a good time at home or outside instead of downtown is completely alien. Ignorance, as it extends into lack of experience, is a hard barrier to break, especially when there are folks singing silly defeatist gospels like "Those who promised us heaven, only ever brought us only hell". Again,I got lucky in being exposed to alternatives ("A simple way of life that don't make you a loser" as The Ditty Bops have said)

 

There is a lot of arguments to be made on matters of economy and government policy but, though perhaps admirable intentions exist, they all take the treatment approach rather then addressing the core of the problem; government, conventional civilization, large-scale capitalism. All of which are dependent, propped up like rock-stars, on the problems and exploitation that the people within are trying to address.