War

[hugo]

The Muslim World: At War with Western Civilization

by Walter Williams (June 24, 2004)

 

The Muslim world is at war with Western civilization. We have the military might to thwart them. The question is: Do we have the intelligence to recognize the attack and the will to defend ourselves from annihilation? Their intent is clear, but let's refresh our memories with a bit of history.

 

 

At the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich, several athletes were massacred. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Tehran was taken over and 52 hostages held for more than a year. In 1983, U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut were blown up, killing 241 U.S. soldiers. In 1988, Pan Am flight 103 was bombed, killing 270 people. In 1993, there was the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and in 2001, it was reduced to rubble, killing more than 3,000 Americans. In 1998, U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed, resulting in more than 200 dead and 4,000 injured. Who are the people responsible for these and other wanton murders of innocents, including the recent barbaric beheading of two innocent men? They were all Muslims.

 

You say, "Williams, you can't make an indictment of a whole people and their religion!" I'm not, and let me clearly state: By no means are all Muslims murderers. But on the other hand, I've never heard broad Muslim condemnation of their fellow Muslims' murderous acts committed in the name of their God. If anything, there has been jubilation and dancing in the streets in the wake of Muslim attacks on Westerners. Contrast their response to the widespread Western condemnation of the, mild by comparison, behavior of a few coalition forces in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

 

Muslim atrocities, and the collective Muslim response to those atrocities, might be better understood knowing their belief system as spelled out by a few, among many, passages from the Quran: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah" (Surat At-Taubah 9:29). "I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them" (Quran 8:12). "The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures" (Quran 98:1-8). "Fight against those who believe not in Allah, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam), until they are subdued" (Surat At-Taubah 9:29).

 

Phil Lucas, editor of the Panama City, Fla., News Herald, in his April 4, 2004, editorial "Up Against Fanaticism," asks, "Can anybody name three ongoing world conflicts in which Muslims are not involved?" Lucas says, "They can't get along with their neighbors on much of the planet: France, Chechnya, Bosnia, Indonesia, Spain, Morocco, India, Tunisia, Somalia, etc., etc., etc."

 

My colleague Dr. Thomas Sowell observes, "Those in the Islamic world have for centuries been taught to regard themselves as far superior to the 'infidels' of the West, while everything they see with their own eyes now tells them otherwise." He adds, "Nowhere have whole peoples seen their situation reversed more visibly or more painfully than the peoples of the Islamic world." Sowell adds that few people, once at the top of civilization, accept their reversals of fortune gracefully. Moreover, they don't blame themselves for their plight. For the Muslim world, it's the West who's to blame.

 

History never repeats itself exactly, but we might benefit from the knowledge of factors leading to the decline of past great civilizations. Rome was one of those advanced civilizations. Rome was so caught up in "bread and circuses" and moral decline that it couldn't manage to defend itself from invading barbaric hordes who ultimately plunged Europe into the Dark Ages. The sooner we recognize the West is in a war for survival, the more likely we'll be able to escape the fate that befell the Roman Empire.

[builder]

Some composure, interesting epithets, rather outstanding patriotism, pathetic realism, absolutely limp in the uplifting sector.

 

All in all, a four out of ten.

 

The first issue you need to confront, hugo, is the one that states that seven out of ten US citizens don't give a fuck about anything, or anyone, other than themselves.

[Jhony5]

The only wars I can think of that we were successful at since the revolutionary war, have had a defined enemy and battle lines. Very interesting reading there though. Alot of truth. I like the Rome/barbarians parallel drawn. Seems to ring true in comparison with whats occurring between the civilized world and the third world.

 

I've never heard broad Muslim condemnation of their fellow Muslims' murderous acts committed in the name of their God. If anything, there has been jubilation and dancing in the streets in the wake of Muslim attacks on Westerners.

 

The only condemnation I hear post terror attack, comes from the talking heads that are dispatched to ease the minds of the society they have just victimized.

 

This is a war we will never win, as we do not have the unending conviction of Islam. To many preoccupations. We want a war with an enemy whom hides behind their own culture. Where is the front-line? Muslims are the front-line, the people themselves. The problem herein is that they know this, and we do not. If we do, it will not be acted upon. We have scruples, they do not. We have rules of engagement, they do not. The history of warfare started in the middle-east thousands of years ago, and it will end there as well.

[Jhony5]

Some composure, interesting epithets, rather outstanding patriotism, pathetic realism, absolutely limp in the uplifting sector.

 

All in all, a four out of ten.

 

The first issue you need to confront, hugo, is the one that states that seven out of ten US citizens don't give a fuck about anything, or anyone, other than themselves.

 

This is a broad generalization, Builder. I think the problem is, 3 out of 10 "Americans", aren't Americans at all.

[hugo]

The only force that can defeat radical Islam is moderate Islam. I know builder, with his loony left view of the world, will disagree, but you do not see any more Christian crusades. The ME missed out on the Enlightenment. Now we have a medieval culture with the potential to possess modern weapons of mass destruction.

[builder]

The only force that can defeat radical Islam is moderate Islam. I know builder, with his loony left view of the world, will disagree, but you do not see any more Christian crusades. The ME missed out on the Enlightenment. Now we have a medieval culture with the potential to possess modern weapons of mass destruction.

 

Scares the shit out of you, don't it?

 

Kinda lets you know how the rest of the world felt during the Cold War, when the end was imminent.

[builder]

This is a broad generalization, Builder. I think the problem is, 3 out of 10 "Americans", aren't Americans at all.

 

Not much I can do about the latter, but the former, well, you should know I'm up for that on any given day.

[hugo]

Scares the shit out of you, don't it?

 

Kinda lets you know how the rest of the world felt during the Cold War, when the end was imminent.

 

Nah, not really. Odds are still pretty damn low. More likely to get killed by some dumbass on the road.

[builder]

Nah, not really. Odds are still pretty damn low. More likely to get killed by some dumbass on the road.

 

 

Odds are mathematical probabilities.

 

These odds increase proportionally with the idiocy encumbent in foreign policy decisions. Would you agree?

[hugo]

The big question I have is why people (western) think their way of life is so bad, why do they feel they deserve punishment? I

[Hamza123]

Before I post my debate, I think it should be known to those of you who simply convict Islam that having the one single perspective with no other insight on any other side of the story is seems almost criminal...

 

"The earth's most expensive and pernicious evil is racism, the inability of God's creatures to live as One, especially in the Western world."

 

- Malcom X

 

Is Islam the problem... No. If it was, than you would find the problem x 10 more in the USA than in the Middle East. We find that Muslims view of the USA world wide is "obsurd", well if it was, why do we have so many Muslims living on Western Soil? Wait, take a few step backs and think, "than why is Islam even a problem in my mind".

 

Why?

 

Well, after 9/11, you can see how the State Department used the media to impose a new image on Muslims. All of a sudden, they can make the victims look like the criminals and the criminals look like the victims. That is simply why you see the problem being Islam in the Middle East.

 

Speaking of the State Department, why is it that the American People have let State Department control America's foreign affairs? Is it not a democracy? Did the American People truly want to go to war in Iraq? I don't think so. If getting rid of Saddam was such a great achievment, than look at Iraq now. What achievments have been made? "More Al-Qaeda" in Iraq? Well, after 9/11, the USA has become much more patriotic, which is respectable in a sense, however all of a sudden, the US Soldiers who defend the US, are labeled Fighters for Freedom, but what about those in Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11, are all of a sudden fighting an occupation by a force not used for any kind of good within the country. At least thats what I see, and when you surround yourself with the kind of people who have such a narrow minded view of the world, who cannot comprehend a different culture or religion, simply becuase they think that the Christian way is the only way and should be the supreme way of living. The American people have become disillusioned, disinchanted, and dis-satisfied. You know what? That is the same deal with the people of the Middle East. They have become disillusioned, disinchanted, and dis-satisfied. There is a new generation of Muslims in the Middle East, and they don't give a flying fuck about what any sheikh says and what any President thinks. They are the new generation born into war, just like the current generation in America.

 

We need to drop our arms and realise that we alike are not enemies but we are held together in a fight for true freedom in the world. Not the freedom from "terrorism" but freedom from the fact that not just white people can get around easier, causing the others to become angry. That is terrorism. Why is the war on terrorism based in the Middle East anyway? What ever happened to modern day terrorism. The terrorism that has plagued us for tens of years and will whipe out the humane race all together if we don't do anything about it. What ever happened to the fight against disease... My friends, if you have forget about all these negative aspects of our current lives and you choose to call me the one that is disillusioned, disinchanted, and dis-satisfied, than I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

Islam the prop of hereditary autocracy? Is Islam a mainstay of the hereditary autocracies of the Arab world and therefore perhaps a major obstacle to democracy? The fact that two thirds of the Muslims of the world live under democratic rule argues to the contrary. Granting that democracies in countries of Muslim majority are new and imperfect, they bear fair comparison with democracies in other, non-Islamic countries whose passage from autocracy to democracy is comparably recent. Islam is not plausibly identified as the main obstacle to democracy in the Middle East.

 

Arab culture the core problem? Is Arab culture then the problem? There is no gainsaying the fact that the Arab world is ruled disproportionately, though (it should be noted) not entirely, by autocracies. However, the thesis that there exists some deep, inherent, cultural or quasi-genetic proclivity to authoritarianism in the Arab world calls to mind comparable theses offered in the recent past about the Japanese, the Germans, the Slavs, the Iberians and, to add a religion to the list, about the Catholics. In every case, there were historical arguments to bolster the pessimistic thesis, and there was a school of essentialist (in a few cases quasi-racist) theoreticians prepared to defend the thesis. But in every case, events have told a different story. Since the Portuguese revolution of 1974, one hundred countries in Europe, Asia, Latin America and Sub-Saharan Africa have moved to the democracy column. The notion that any nation or culture is inherently incapable of democracy does not withstand scrutiny.

[hugo]

I will grant that all religions can be used to spread intolerance. The questions our world needs to answer is how ro seperate the functions of church and state in the Arab world? How do we help the moderates of the Muslim world win? The victims on 9/11 were not the terrorists, Hamza. You need to ask yourself how your Sunni Muslim status colors your view of Iraq and the world in general.

 

Everywhere mass poverty exists a nation's leaders will find an external or internal enemy to blame.

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

Before I post my debate, I think it should be known to those of you who simply convict Islam that having the one single perspective with no other insight on any other side of the story is seems almost criminal...

Criminal to your sick and twisted SHARIAH crap, but not to sane and inteligent people!

 

and BTW... FUCK MALCOLM X !!! What a hipocritical and racist shitbag islamo-fascist! He is being fucked in the ass by satan with his his dick covered in mohamed's shit!

 

Is Islam the problem...

Yes.

 

No. If it was, than you would find the problem x 10 more in the USA than in the Middle East.

Hamza, you are so full of shit... Islam is the problem and no amount of this "Smoke and Mirrors" debate is going to change that.

 

We find that Muslims view of the USA world wide is "obsurd", well if it was, why do we have so many Muslims living on Western Soil? Wait, take a few step backs and think, "than why is Islam even a problem in my mind".

That is because...

 

1) islam is a hate-filled philosophy.

2) islam can only expand by violence.

3) islam can stand no alternative ideas, it can not stand on truth alone.

4) islam can not survive next to the truth, consequently it must silence the truth. It does this by killing anyone who speaks against it.

5) islam can not co-exist peacefully with any other alternative philosophy, therefore it lashes out violently against everything non-islamic.

5) islam can not survive without war, death and violence, islam needs her time honored tradition of expanding by the sword, or all would leave.

6) islam employees lies and deceit to further her cause... even you Hamza, lie constantly to protect the foul stench of this pig-shit religion. You claim to have "denounced islamic terrorism" but have never actually done so! ... And at this point,if you did, it would be just another lie in a long series of lies.

 

Well, after 9/11, you can see how the State Department used the media to impose a new image on Muslims. All of a sudden, they can make the victims look like the criminals and the criminals look like the victims. That is simply why you see the problem being Islam in the Middle East.

It is hardly "all of a sudden" islam was born in violence. Mohammed(may piss be upon him) united arabia, not under a philosophy, but under the sword. Later, islam conquered north africa and persia by the sword. Then the islamic moors tried to invade the iberian penensula by the sword. The turks invaded eastern europe and were repelled by the sword.

 

The idea that islam is violent is hardly a "new" idea.

 

Speaking of the State Department, why is it that the American People have let State Department control America's foreign affairs? Is it not a democracy?

1) The USA is not a Democracy, it is a Republic.

2) The State Department is appointed by Elected officials.

3) The State Department is failing us by not erradicating islam from the face of the earth!

 

American People truly want to go to war in Iraq? I don't think so.

I for one, am damn glad we toppled Sadaam, am damn glad we have flushed out and are engaging Al-Queda, and am damn glad we are engaging these vicious dogs OVER THERE AND NOT OVER HERE

[Jhony5]

Posted by Hazma:

Well, after 9/11, you can see how the State Department used the media to impose a new image on Muslims.

 

HOW? By showing Muslims cheering in the streets by the tens of thousands? By showing the faces of the people who attacked us? Should the media edit its reports to shy away from exposing these criminals for the Muslims they are? Maybe they should have used CGI to whiten their faces and maybe change their names from Mohammad and Jahzeer to Bob and Rick. Would that be 'racially sensitive' enough for ya.

 

All of a sudden, they can make the victims look like the criminals and the criminals look like the victims.

 

Now your pissin me off fella. So let me get this straight. Its the people in the towers that are the criminals, and Mohammad Atta was the victim? These are your words bud. EXPLAIN THIS REMARK!!

[Hamza123]

Now your pissin me off fella. So let me get this straight. Its the people in the towers that are the criminals, and Mohammad Atta was the victim? These are your words bud. EXPLAIN THIS REMARK!!

 

The hijackers on the plane put the 9/11 families through hell so the State Department decided to do the same thing to Muslims. Put them through hell.

[Jhony5]

The hijackers on the plane put the 9/11 families through hell so the State Department decided to do the same thing to Muslims. Put them through hell.

 

How do you figure? The American people decided on September 12th 2001 that any nation, people, or organization that has any connection to terrorist, shall face severe retribution. Those parties are Muslims. Not all Muslims mind you, but Muslims nonetheless. I personally know many Muslims, including my ex-girlfriends father. An immigrant from Cyprus. He does not condone radical Islam in any way. Hes a good man whom made his way in America by hard work and ethical behavior.

 

If he was dragged in for questioning by the authorities, who's fault would it be? His? The Governments? Or perhaps the Muslim community as a whole?

 

What I'm saying is it's not Americas fault that we must now question all Muslims inside our border. Look at it as a means to an end.