Fighting teen pregnancy

[snafu]

You both are right.

 

Ali is right in that men crave sex. We create the market and women thrive on it not only for money but that they crave sex too just not as much as men.

 

TJ is right in that women flaunt it. They promote sex by the way they dress that stimulates the mans drive for attracting them.They don't dress like that for any other reasn! They also emulate working women thinking they can get a man for a union which is the wrong thing to do.

 

My brother and I were talking about this the other day. When a lady dresses in a nice low cut, spaghetti string blouse with a short, up to the butt skirt, what is the guy to think? He's got hormones!! When its an ugly guy that says "hubba bubba" she gives him the stink eye. If he's a cute guy she gives him the lower come here look.

Have you ever seen the SNL skit with the guy in undrewear is hitting up a chick at work. The ugly guy gets busted for sexual harssment but the cute guy gets a date. Same thing.

 

Even an old cow like me will look! I'll feel like a dirty old man but I'm human!! Women have to realze that how they present themseves will be how they are treated.

[jokersarewild]

Ali is right though. Parents don't parent. We keep treating these initiatives as "Hey, let's try to get the kid not to . That'll learn 'em." What we SHOULD be doing is teaching the parents how to PARENT THEIR DAMN CHILDREN. Problem solved.

 

And Snaf, I feel your pain. I have enough problems as it is without having to worry about these damn prosti-tots running around. It should be illegal to dress like a sex-crazed whore under 18

[timesjoke]

Women are pressured by the media and other women to "sell" themselves in order to attract men. It's true! I realize this.

 

The media is selling advertising, it is the women's products that pay for the advertising so again, women pressuring women, men have little to do with it.

 

I'm saying that men are also guilty of the objectification of women, too! Are you honestly going to deny this??????? Seriously?????????

 

Do I think men can change the way a woman things? Do we possess the power to control women? Are men smarter and capable of manipulating women without them being able to know what is happening to them?

 

 

No Ali, I have to say only women have the power to do these things. I have been manipulated into doing all sorts of things I never intended to do by women, but I have never been successful in using the same tactics on women.

 

I can easily say that is the realm of women, men are way too blunt and direct to control women in those ways.

 

The world's problems don't lie solely on the shoulders of those "damn women's libbers". OMG. Open your eyes and get over that ridiculous concept!

 

Right, tell me something Ali, how many men tell you what to do?

 

Exactly,

 

Women are the only group who can really manipulate other women. The feminists are the ones who made irresponsible sexual behaviors part of the women's movement, not men.

 

Remember my Great Grandmother Ali, she said "Why would a guy buy the cow if he is getting the milk for free?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

WHERE DID I SAY THAT??????????????????

 

What I AM saying is that the girls...AND BOYS....need to be taught personal responsibility? How in the fuk are you glossing over that?

 

Your trying to downplay the fact that only girls control their reproductive systems. As we are pointing out in another discussion, about 30% of men are paying support for children they did not father. We only know for sure who the mother is.

 

Your expressing the same tactics to divert attention away from women and girls on any atempt to show they should be responsible for their own reproductive system.

 

You best be prepared to back that fukking piece of sh!t statement up, TJ. Now.

 

I do NOT appreciate you trying to label me as a man hater. Not one little bit.

 

Man hater?

 

I never said you were a man hater. I said you are stuck on making excuses in trying to blame men when it is the girls/women who control the situation. Leaving out rape, women have 100% of the control. Men always want the sex, have always wanted the sex, it is the side effect of testosterone in our bodies, we have very little control over this reaction and once the chemical process is started, it is difficult to think past that point.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqgsD-IhFtw]YouTube - Mark Gungor - Men's Sex Drive[/ame]

 

 

While your at it watch this one:

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxckAMaTDc]YouTube - Mark Gungor - Men's Brain Women's Brain[/ame]

 

 

 

 

Surely not you.

 

It is not my fault Ali, I didn't make this world or control the way it has developed.

 

All I know for sure is I have had my own pile of "unfair" on my back and nobody helped me, I had to take care of myself. Fair is a myth, a mirage in the distance designed to tease, and raise your hopes, but to never really exist.

[RoyalOrleans]

The problem with the average man-hater is that their hate is often well justified.

[timesjoke]

The problem with the average man-hater is that their hate is often well justified.

 

I'm sorry but I don't buy that.

 

Hate is inside yourself, why allow external issues/conditions/events to create hate inside yourself? I am always surprised at the capacity for hate in some people, but that capacity is them, not anyone else.

[RoyalOrleans]

I'm sorry but I don't buy that.

 

Hate is inside yourself, why allow external issues/conditions/events to create hate inside yourself? I am always surprised at the capacity for hate in some people, but that capacity is them, not anyone else.

 

I hate you.

[timesjoke]

I hate you.

 

You are what you hate and that is why you hate it.

 

 

[wez]

You are what you hate and that is why you hate it.

 

 

 

hahaha.. As he quotes the guy whom he will forever keep on ignore because he's oil and I'm water..

 

Quit quoting me without giving me credit.. dumbass..

 

And it's.. What you hate is what you are and that is why you hate it ~ wez

 

Quit using please explain too..

 

What's next? I'm not you? hahahaha

[Ahhlee]

It used to me a men's industry but it is now bring more and more controlled by women both in production and in directing.

 

Women actors also make twice the income as the men do so I really do not see how porn is bad for women. Women have been "selling their goods" long before porn came along.

 

So porn is completely harmless and not used by some men to objectify women at all? Whew! What a relief! I guess that means if your daughter decides to star in the new production of "Sh!tty Titty Gang Bang" the day she turns 18, you'll be one proud papa, huh? I'm sure you would, since she'd be making twice the income of one of her well hung male co-stars.

 

 

 

 

Girls get pregnant, it is their responsibility to control their own body. I am all for helping them help themselves, but there must be responsibility first and as long as even you Ali refuse to hold the girls responsible for their reproductive functions, that means your part of the problem too.

 

I asked you a simple question. WHERE did I ever say that girls should be absolved of their responsibilities???????

 

Your answer:

 

Your trying to downplay the fact that only girls control their reproductive systems. As we are pointing out in another discussion, about 30% of men are paying support for children they did not father. We only know for sure who the mother is.

 

Your expressing the same tactics to divert attention away from women and girls on any atempt to show they should be responsible for their own reproductive system

 

Who is diverting who with a bunch of BS that doesn't even pertain to the discussion? I will ask you again.....WHERE or WHEN did I ever say that girls should be absolved of their responsibilities???????

 

The girls see people like you making excuses for them too, and while your busy trying to blame men for all of women's problems, the girls are learning that they do not have to take responsibility.

 

WHERE did I say that men are the crux of all evil???? I have never said that and again, I don't appreciate you trying to pin opinions on me that aren't even my own. You're trying to shove me into a corner and paint me as a foaming at the mouth man-hating extreme feminist when I am no such thing!

 

The point I have been trying to make through this entire fukking thread, if you would take a moment to pull your head out of your ass long enough to notice, is that we should be teaching BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS about taking responsibility when it comes to sex! You seem to be the only one unwilling to comprehend that.

 

Man hater?

 

I never said you were a man hater. I said you are stuck on making excuses in trying to blame men when it is the girls/women who control the situation. Leaving out rape, women have 100% of the control. Men always want the sex, have always wanted the sex, it is the side effect of testosterone in our bodies, we have very little control over this reaction and once the chemical process is started, it is difficult to think past that point.

 

WHO IS MAKING EXCUSES?????????? Oh, poor boys. They can't control their hormonally charged d!cks so of course it's ok for them to stick them wherever they want to! After all, boys will be boys! It's those damn girls who need to ignore their own raging hormones and keep those boys suffering from lack of self-control away. Evil, evil girls! A pox upon thee!

 

Remember my Great Grandmother Ali, she said "Why would a guy buy the cow if he is getting the milk for free?"

 

How much did you pay for your cow? Did you get a good deal?

[timesjoke]

So porn is completely harmless and not used by some men to objectify women at all? Whew! What a relief! I guess that means if your daughter decides to star in the new production of "Sh!tty Titty Gang Bang" the day she turns 18, you'll be one proud papa, huh? I'm sure you would, since she'd be making twice the income of one of her well hung male co-stars.

 

"IF" she did make that decision it would be because she made it herself, women are not brainless robots who just do whatever these porn producers tell them to do. You always make women sound like victims but didn't these women choose this life and career?

 

I see sexuality for those reasons as immoral to be sure, but a woman who marries without love just because the man is well off is the same exact same thing in my mind.

 

 

 

I asked you a simple question. WHERE did I ever say that girls should be absolved of their responsibilities???????

 

Who is diverting who with a bunch of BS that doesn't even pertain to the discussion? I will ask you again.....WHERE or WHEN did I ever say that girls should be absolved of their responsibilities???????

 

I already completely explained it, you do it through misdirection and changing the subject away from putting the blame where it belongs. You start in with blaming men and boys but never directly say it is the woman's responsibility for getting pregnant.

 

WHERE did I say that men are the crux of all evil???? I have never said that and again, I don't appreciate you trying to pin opinions on me that aren't even my own. You're trying to shove me into a corner and paint me as a foaming at the mouth man-hating extreme feminist when I am no such thing!

 

The point I have been trying to make through this entire fukking thread, if you would take a moment to pull your head out of your ass long enough to notice, is that we should be teaching BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS about taking responsibility when it comes to sex! You seem to be the only one unwilling to comprehend that.

 

I never said you cast that accusation of men being the crux of all evil Ali, why you feel the need to insert things I never said I have no idea.

 

What I said is your fast with the excuses. You say it is both the men and women's fault the woman cannot control her own reproductive system. That system belongs to the woman, the same woman controls every aspect of sex. The same woman controlls the abortion process. The same woman knows if she is on the pill or not.

 

But you want to blame the men?

 

WHO IS MAKING EXCUSES?????????? Oh, poor boys. They can't control their hormonally charged d!cks so of course it's ok for them to stick them wherever they want to! After all, boys will be boys! It's those damn girls who need to ignore their own raging hormones and keep those boys suffering from lack of self-control away. Evil, evil girls! A pox upon thee!

 

Women do not have the same kind of hormonal drive men do.

 

Men have always had this same drive but it is only in this modern time girls/women are getting pregnant outside of marriage in such large numbers so you tell me what has changed?

 

Today we even have easy to use protection but this modern tool of protection against unwanted pregnancies is not used......why do you believe girls who are sexually active do not use protection when they know "they" must carry the burdon should an unwanted pregnancy happen?

 

How much did you pay for your cow? Did you get a good deal?

 

lol, actually the cow purchased me in many ways, but that is a long story

 

I notice as usual you never address the meaning behind points and questions but instead you look for ways to divert attention away from the valid point you feel too insecure to respond to Ali.

 

 

Why are girls now tossing it out of both pants legs Ali?

 

That is a change, maybe you feel that change is okay, I don't know because you never address this issue, all you ever do is try to blame men for what women do.

 

 

 

 

I go back to my earlier question/point that you have dodged Ali:

 

What man tells you what to do?

 

Your reproductive system, not the man's. You proclaim that when it comes to killing a baby, the man has no right to tell a woman what to do with her reproductive system.....fine, so why are you now trying to say men have any say in the creation either?

 

No glove, no love........

 

Women are 100% in control, they have all the power, the man has none.

[Ahhlee]

"IF" she did make that decision it would be because she made it herself, women are not brainless robots who just do whatever these porn producers tell them to do. You always make women sound like victims but didn't these women choose this life and career?

 

I see sexuality for those reasons as immoral to be sure, but a woman who marries without love just because the man is well off is the same exact same thing in my mind.

 

But you still view those women as immoral. Immoral = bad.

 

 

 

I already completely explained it, you do it through misdirection and changing the subject away from putting the blame where it belongs. You start in with blaming men and boys but never directly say it is the woman's responsibility for getting pregnant.

 

Absolutely 100% false. I said no such thing. At no point have I ever said that women should be absolved of their responsibilities in an unplanned pregnancy

 

I never said you cast that accusation of men being the crux of all evil Ali, why you feel the need to insert things I never said I have no idea.

 

Semantics, TJ. Semantics.

 

What I said is your fast with the excuses. You say it is both the men and women's fault the woman cannot control her own reproductive system. That system belongs to the woman, the same woman controls every aspect of sex. The same woman controlls the abortion process. The same woman knows if she is on the pill or not.

 

Women are not asexual creatures.

 

But you want to blame the men?

 

 

No, I don't want to blame the men. I'm placing the blame on irresponsible PEOPLE.

 

 

Women do not have the same kind of hormonal drive men do.

 

BULLSH!T!!!! Both men and women have varying degrees of sexual appetites within their genders. There are women out there with very high sex drives, TJ. Trust me...I know!

 

 

Men have always had this same drive but it is only in this modern time girls/women are getting pregnant outside of marriage in such large numbers so you tell me what has changed?

 

The fact that we have developed into such a "throw away" society. People don't feel the pressure to remain in long term relationships anymore so that leaves us with a lot more single mothers out there having babies.

 

Do I think that's a good thing? No.

 

 

Today we even have easy to use protection but this modern tool of protection against unwanted pregnancies is not used......why do you believe girls who are sexually active do not use protection when they know "they" must carry the burdon should an unwanted pregnancy happen?

 

Today's kids are used to getting everything they want...fast.

 

One example: When we were young, we had to wait until Christmas to watch such show like "Rudolph" and "Frosty the Snowman". Now kids just click a button on the computer or dvd player and whatever they want to watch is there. They have no concept of having to wait for anything anymore because pleasures and luxuries are handed to them so freely.

 

Why should they feel any different about sex? Especially when it's glorified in the media that they are exposed to every day?

 

Kids don't understand the significance of long term consequences for their actions because parents aren't instilling these values into them. It all boils down to good and responsible parenting.

 

lol, actually the cow purchased me in many ways, but that is a long story

 

I notice as usual you never address the meaning behind points and questions but instead you look for ways to divert attention away from the valid point you feel too insecure to respond to Ali.

 

Huh? Insecure about what?

 

 

Why are girls now tossing it out of both pants legs Ali?

 

My guess is a lot of them come from broken homes where the single parent is working long hours to provide for their family so they feel neglected. Girls are looking for love...in all the wrong places...but ultimately they're trying to find love and acceptance through sex.

 

Premarital sex isn't a new concept. Back in the day, if it happened the man was obligated to step up and marry the girl he knocked up. Now boys don't feel that pressure so they remain free to impregnate another girl...and another...and another...

 

I really think kids today are emulating what they see on tv and in the movies. Sex sells! Sex is cool! Consequences be damned!

 

That is a change, maybe you feel that change is okay, I don't know because you never address this issue, all you ever do is try to blame men for what women do.

 

No, I don't think things are ok and that is why I have repeatedly said that something must be done to teach BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS how to take responsibility for themselves!

 

If you tell me one more time that "all I ever do is try to blame men for what women do", you are going to piss me off and things are going to get really ugly around here. This is my final warning: STOP!!!!

 

 

 

I go back to my earlier question/point that you have dodged Ali:

 

What man tells you what to do?

 

None, but I'm not a teenager. Isn't that what we're debating here? Teenage pregnancy?

 

Your reproductive system, not the man's. You proclaim that when it comes to killing a baby, the man has no right to tell a woman what to do with her reproductive system.....fine, so why are you now trying to say men have any say in the creation either?

 

HUH? I'd prefer to see men and women working together for the sake of children...planned or not. And again, women are not asexual beings.

 

Again, you're pinning opinions on me that are not mine.

 

No glove, no love........

 

Agreed!

 

Women are 100% in control, they have all the power, the man has none.

 

Nothing is 100% except abstinence. When two parties are involved in sex, the split of responsibility becomes 50/50.

[RoyalOrleans]

God is a woman.

[timesjoke]

But you still view those women as immoral. Immoral = bad.

 

Sex for money is immoral, do you not agree?

 

 

 

Absolutely 100% false. I said no such thing. At no point have I ever said that women should be absolved of their responsibilities in an unplanned pregnancy

 

No, you try to make it sound like there is an equal responsible for both men and women to control the woman's reproductive system. You have never said it is 100% the woman's body and as such, 100% her responsibility to control it.

 

 

Your always trying to make women and girls sound like helpless puppets of men, like your claim porn is men taking advantage of women, well can't women be taking advantage of men to get their money as well? It is more along the lines of both taking advantage in one way or another.

 

 

Semantics, TJ. Semantics.

 

No, not really, your trying to make my point about you offering nothing but excuses to mean something else. I said what I meant, you offer misdirection away from blame on women who do not control their own reproductive system.

 

 

Women are not asexual creatures.

 

Never said they were Ali.

 

A woman's drive is 100% mental, a man's drive is some mental and heavy chemical. Two completely different things. That is why a man who can be angry at his wife will still feel sexual interest in her but with women their sex drive is the first thing to dissapear when they are unhappy with their man.

 

 

 

No, I don't want to blame the men. I'm placing the blame on irresponsible PEOPLE.

 

People do not control your reproductive system Ali, you do. Women are in control of their reproductive system, not men.

 

BULLSH!T!!!! Both men and women have varying degrees of sexual appetites within their genders. There are women out there with very high sex drives, TJ. Trust me...I know!

 

Again, that is mental, not chemical.

 

Women do not have anything close to a man's testosterone reaction. Did you watch the movie I posted? Same head, same heart, same person but low testosterone and a man has no interest in sex at all. Testosterone therapy and suddenly the man is wanting sex again.

 

 

The fact that we have developed into such a "throw away" society. People don't feel the pressure to remain in long term relationships anymore so that leaves us with a lot more single mothers out there having babies.

 

Do I think that's a good thing? No.

 

Again, one has nothing to do with the other. Yes, in days gone by women needed men to take care of them, especially during pregnancy but today they no longer need the man, they have the court system to get child support so survival through a long term relationship is no longer necessary.

 

Sexuality leading to unwanted babies should not be a problem, simply use protection and have all the sex you want. My question to you was why no protection?

 

 

 

Today's kids are used to getting everything they want...fast.

 

One example: When we were young, we had to wait until Christmas to watch such show like "Rudolph" and "Frosty the Snowman". Now kids just click a button on the computer or dvd player and whatever they want to watch is there. They have no concept of having to wait for anything anymore because pleasures and luxuries are handed to them so freely.

 

Why should they feel any different about sex? Especially when it's glorified in the media that they are exposed to every day?

 

But all that is fine but having sex and getting pregnant is two different things. You can't tell me that a 15 year old girl does not know how babies are made and how to avoid getting pregnant.

 

 

Kids don't understand the significance of long term consequences for their actions because parents aren't instilling these values into them. It all boils down to good and responsible parenting.

 

Well like I said above, I cannot believe the kids do not know how babies are made or how to avoid making them. Most kids in broken homes are living with their mother so why are women not teaching their girls to use protection as a matter of responsibility?

 

 

Huh? Insecure about what?

 

Okay, the long version:

 

Many people say that Obama has a bigger pressure on him as a Black man because if he fails, he will paint all blacks with his failures where white guys do not have to face that same standard.

 

I believe you feel the same way about issues that effect women. You feel a need to defend women in all things and make excuses or at least try to "dirty up the water" on the discussions.

 

 

My guess is a lot of them come from broken homes where the single parent is working long hours to provide for their family so they feel neglected. Girls are looking for love...in all the wrong places...but ultimately they're trying to find love and acceptance through sex.

 

Fine, I accept that as a given, but it is easy to have a very energetic sex life and not make a baby. This is my point.

 

Premarital sex isn't a new concept. Back in the day, if it happened the man was obligated to step up and marry the girl he knocked up. Now boys don't feel that pressure so they remain free to impregnate another girl...and another...and another...

 

lol, there you go again blaming men for what women do. All the boys are just runnign around bedding poor innocent girls and the girls cannot say no right?

 

Your right, premarital sex did happen, but the women were very careful to not get pregnant without a father and husband. These days having a father and husband are no longer important to the women.

 

Have you ever heard of "nesting"? Women used to set up an environment for raising their children. It included a home, and even a "hope chest". Both of my sisters had a hope chest. Both have husbands and life long parenting success.

 

I am no female, but I believe losing that 'goal' has done a lot of damage to women in general.

 

 

I really think kids today are emulating what they see on tv and in the movies. Sex sells! Sex is cool! Consequences be damned!

 

Again, sex is cool, but there must be a reason some girls do not use any protection.

 

 

No, I don't think things are ok and that is why I have repeatedly said that something must be done to teach BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS how to take responsibility for themselves!

 

If you tell me one more time that "all I ever do is try to blame men for what women do", you are going to piss me off and things are going to get really ugly around here. This is my final warning: STOP!!!!

 

Ali, leave the threats out of it, you cannot bully me, I can care less if your angry, your anger shows that your the one with the problem, not me.

 

Again you make referance to teaching both girls and boys about controlling a girls reproductive system, why do you put girls in such a out of control assumption over their own bodies Ali? Less educated girls from 100 years ago could do it, but your saying better educated girls are now incapable of controlling their reproductive system?

 

 

 

 

None, but I'm not a teenager. Isn't that what we're debating here? Teenage pregnancy?

 

True, and again, when you were a teenager were you a brainless robot doing anything a boy told you to do even not using birth control because a boy told you not to?

 

 

HUH? I'd prefer to see men and women working together for the sake of children...planned or not. And again, women are not asexual beings.

 

Again, you're pinning opinions on me that are not mine.

 

No that is the other way around. I never said women were asexual, just that they do not have a sex hormone, men do. Women's sex drive is 100% mental.

 

 

Agreed!

 

Great, you agree the rule "no glove, no love" is a good one, so why can't girls use the pill or this rule to keep from getting pregnant? Girls are better educated these days right? You can't place the blame on ignorance.

 

 

Nothing is 100% except abstinence. When two parties are involved in sex, the split of responsibility becomes 50/50.

 

Women have 100% of the control. Men do not control a woman's reproductive system. A woman can keep her use of protection from a man, or even lie to a man and tell him she is using protection when she is not.

 

I was not saying contol measures were 100%, just that the woman had 100% of the decision making in her hands to use, or not use the protection in question. Or to even have sex in the first place.

[Ahhlee]

lol, there you go again blaming men for what women do.

 

ENOUGH!

 

If you are incapable of having a debate with me without being an obtuse moron stuck on some ridiculous bullsh!t that I have never said, then there is no need for me to continue here.

 

I don't mind someone disputing my points...in fact, I relish a spirited discussion....but to repeatedly claim I'm doing/saying something that I'm not is absolute crap!

 

Ali, leave the threats out of it, you cannot bully me

 

Who threatened who in PM's that you could "break me" with all the personal things you know about me? Hmmmm? Who's the bully now?

 

I can care less if your angry, your anger shows that your the one with the problem, not me

 

You want angry? Here's a little taste of angry for ya....

 

FUKK YOU, TJ!

 

FUKKKKKKK YOUUUUUUU!

[timesjoke]

So typical.

 

Yes Ali, you do keep dragging men into any discussion about anything you see as negative negative concerning women in general.

 

Your like the drowning person who desperately grabs at someone else in the water and you drown them too. Men do not control your actions in any way, shape, or form so why do you keep trying to drag men into the discussion? Women are not blind robots, I know you do not see women in that way so your attempt to say men are just as responsible as women for controlling a woman's reproductive system is lame, very lame.

 

 

You refuse to answer that question becuase you do not have an answer, so you turn to this,,,,,,well whatever you want to call this out of control explosion your so fond of performing whenever someone is not intimidated by you enough to drop a line of discussion you find difficult to talk about.

 

 

If you find it difficult to answer a simple question of why some girls/women have difficulty controling their reproductive system fine, just don't respond, but if your only trying to distract and force attention away from that question then I will simply keep asking the question until it reaches this point of you being pissed.

 

Anger stops your ability to think, you cannot get me angry so I will keep in mind my original question that you have never answered.

 

 

 

At the end of the day we agree on many subjects and I find you to be a very smart and funny person. You just have a thorn in your paw on subjects like this and you do not use logic or reason in these discussions.

 

These subjects are WAR for you. I understand this but I will not run away in fear of your anger, if you find it impossible to control yourself in discussions of this nature maybe you should avoid them.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as my pm goes you know darn well I was talking about your trend to make personal attacks and even attack my family with lies when your upset. You called Tami all sorts of nasty names in your attempt to strike out at me. You made up all sorts of lies just to try and bother me.

 

I can bother you without ever telling a lie as you love to do when your striking out but I also told you I wanted to avoid that arena if possible.

 

I guess it is up to you, as usual I will simply follow your lead and respond accordingly.

 

 

 

Remember, I have reached out to you over and over again, I compliment you on things we agree on and even offer you my respect and well wishes when your involved in something bad you share. Between the two of us, I am the only one trying to show you some kidness as well.

 

You have only ever showed me neutral and bad, never one shread of good.

[eddo]

blah blah blah, same old TJ crappola

 

 

Maybe if you would stop speaking for everyone else and focus on what you have to offer the discussion, things wouldn't get so damn frustrating.

 

just something to think about.

[timesjoke]

Maybe if you would stop speaking for everyone else and focus on what you have to offer the discussion, things wouldn't get so damn frustrating.

 

just something to think about.

 

I don't eddo, but I do ask the hard questions and make valid points.

 

Look at any discussion involving women taking responsibility for themselves and there is also Ali trying to attach men to the problem.

 

 

I will keep this simple, why is porn relivant? Ali decided to bring that into the conversation why? How many teen girls are watching professional porn? Then ask how many of these same girls are exposed to women's magazines that are pushing these attitudes?

 

 

With Ali she tries to 'muddy the water' with things that have no real impact on the conversation just to keep her from admitting that there has been a fundamental degrading of attitudes with the average female tword controlling their reproductive functions.

 

 

Look at all the things she has posted, do you see anywhere where she says a woman is responsible for her own body without also mentioning something negative about males?

 

Now boys don't feel that pressure so they remain free to impregnate another girl...and another...and another...

 

Here is an example of how Ali deflects, she says boys are just going from girl to girl getting them pregnant, like the girls are just helpless victims of boys.

 

 

I am the guy saying girls are not just victims, that they are strong enough to stand on their own feet and be responsible for themselves. I do not believe for a second any boy can get a girl pregnant unless the girl wants to get pregnant.

[RoyalOrleans]

Grass on turf... PLAY BALL!

[Ahhlee]

So typical.

 

Yes Ali, you do keep dragging men into any discussion about anything you see as negative negative concerning women in general.

 

Your like the drowning person who desperately grabs at someone else in the water and you drown them too. Men do not control your actions in any way, shape, or form so why do you keep trying to drag men into the discussion? Women are not blind robots, I know you do not see women in that way so your attempt to say men are just as responsible as women for controlling a woman's reproductive system is lame, very lame.

 

 

You refuse to answer that question becuase you do not have an answer, so you turn to this,,,,,,well whatever you want to call this out of control explosion your so fond of performing whenever someone is not intimidated by you enough to drop a line of discussion you find difficult to talk about.

 

 

If you find it difficult to answer a simple question of why some girls/women have difficulty controling their reproductive system fine, just don't respond, but if your only trying to distract and force attention away from that question then I will simply keep asking the question until it reaches this point of you being pissed.

 

Anger stops your ability to think, you cannot get me angry so I will keep in mind my original question that you have never answered.

 

I've answered your questions a thousand times over. You're simply not getting the response you want to hear. Well guess what, TJ...I have a different opinion than you do and that's not going to change any time soon.

 

 

At the end of the day we agree on many subjects and I find you to be a very smart and funny person. You just have a thorn in your paw on subjects like this and you do not use logic or reason in these discussions.

 

Oh really? I believe I was doing just fine as far as logic and reason are concerned. Perhaps if you would stop insulting people's intelligence, beliefs and personal values rather than discussing the topic at hand, you might garner better results.

 

These subjects are WAR for you. I understand this but I will not run away in fear of your anger, if you find it impossible to control yourself in discussions of this nature maybe you should avoid them.

 

Maybe you should avoid being such a complete and utter douchebag. Just a thought.

 

 

As far as my pm goes you know darn well I was talking about your trend to make personal attacks and even attack my family with lies when your upset. You called Tami all sorts of nasty names in your attempt to strike out at me. You made up all sorts of lies just to try and bother me.

 

What is it with you and your "lies". Everybody is telling "lies". You're like the little boy who cried "LIES!".

 

You really need to learn the difference between a disagreement and a lie. Until then, you're just making yourself look dumb and overly dramatic.

 

And I don't know d!ck about your personal life other that what you've openly shared on the boards. Frankly, TJ, I don't find you or yours interesting enough to sit around and dream up elaborate lies about you. Sorry to disappoint.

 

 

I can bother you without ever telling a lie as you love to do when your striking out but I also told you I wanted to avoid that arena if possible.

 

Oh now it's "bother me". Before it was "break me". Interesting.

 

I guess it is up to you, as usual I will simply follow your lead and respond accordingly.

 

Go fukk yourself. How's that for a lead? Now feel free to follow.

 

 

Remember, I have reached out to you over and over again, I compliment you on things we agree on and even offer you my respect and well wishes when your involved in something bad you share. Between the two of us, I am the only one trying to show you some kidness as well.

 

You have only ever showed me neutral and bad, never one shread of good.

 

What the fukk do you want from me? Romantic weekends at a B&B? Tickle fights? Tea parties?

 

We're not meant to be friends, TJ. Again, sorry to disappoint.

 

........

 

TJ - What you don't realize about me, because you aren't willing to see beyond what you THINK I am, is that I believe in fairness. If it's a woman being put down unfairly, I will stand up for the women. If it's a man being put down unfairly, I will stand up for the men. Young, old, fat, thin, blonde, brunette...if I truly think you're getting the short end of the stick, I'll stand up for you.

 

I don't ALWAYS portray women as victims. I don't ALWAYS portray men in a negative light. Stating things in such absolutes just turns people off from discussing things from you. Do you seriously not see that?

 

You know, I have been hurt in the past. Badly. I have been neglected, hit, shook, shoved, stolen from, verbally abused, and even raped....all at the hands of men. But do I hate men? NO!!!! After all of that, I still love men and prefer to judge them on an individual basis rather than lumping them all into the "fukken jerk" pile. My best friend is male. Many of my close friends are male. I see no reason to demonize the majority based on the deplorable actions of the few. In fact, if you knew me at all, you would know that when a group of my female co-horts start in on a heated man bashing session, I am one of the first to speak up and defend men with a "hey, hey now....they're not all bad!".

 

Please, for the love of God, stop saying I think ALL men are negative!!!!!! I don't!

 

So now all we've accomplished is this thread is completely derailed and you and I are at eachother's throats again.

 

Ehhh....whatever. Anything I say will be falling on deaf ears anyway so I have nothing further to add to this particular discussion.

[ImWithStupid]

I still love men and prefer to judge them on an individual basis rather than lumping them all into the "fukken jerk" pile.

 

 

Can I be in the "fukken jerk" pile, please?

 

 

My best friend is male. Many of my close friends are male. I see no reason to demonize the majority based on the deplorable actions of the few. In fact, if you knew me at all, you would know that when a group of my female co-horts start in on a heated man bashing session, I am one of the first to speak up and defend men with a "hey, hey now....they're not all bad!".

 

 

That doesn't sound like the language of a man hating banshee, to me.

[timesjoke]

I've answered your questions a thousand times over. You're simply not getting the response you want to hear. Well guess what, TJ...I have a different opinion than you do and that's not going to change any time soon.

 

No you have not, let me give you one example out of the many:

 

Q - What man tells you what to do?

 

A - None, but I'm not a teenager. Isn't that what we're debating here? Teenage pregnancy?

 

Q - True, and again, when you were a teenager were you a brainless robot doing anything a boy told you to do even not using birth control because a boy told you not to?

 

A - ................NO ANSWER....................

 

 

You rarely answer a direct question, you dodge and change the subject instead.

 

Oh really? I believe I was doing just fine as far as logic and reason are concerned. Perhaps if you would stop insulting people's intelligence, beliefs and personal values rather than discussing the topic at hand, you might garner better results.

 

No not really, again I admit your a very smart girl and you use that to twist and turn topics away from the intended discussion, but I keep you on track and when you do not successfully derail me away from the questions you do not want to answer.....we get this.

 

Again, why is anyone besides a women responsible for a woman's reproductive system? You have not made the case as to why you feel men are just as responsible for controlling women as the women themselves.

 

 

Maybe you should avoid being such a complete and utter douchebag. Just a thought.

 

Well there you are again with the name calling, good way to make my point for me.

 

If your angry, your the one with the problems, not me. These are just words over a computer world, nothing personal in either direction. Why do you feel you have to pound me into submission?

 

 

 

What is it with you and your "lies". Everybody is telling "lies". You're like the little boy who cried "LIES!".

 

You really need to learn the difference between a disagreement and a lie. Until then, you're just making yourself look dumb and overly dramatic.

 

And I don't know d!ck about your personal life other that what you've openly shared on the boards. Frankly, TJ, I don't find you or yours interesting enough to sit around and dream up elaborate lies about you. Sorry to disappoint.

 

Oh bull Ali, you have been just as involved in calling Tami a whore, brainless bimbo, etc as anyone else. You take what I have shared, twist it into a lie and spout it out for only one reason, to try and hurt me.

 

You have gone out of your way to strike out at me hundreds of time and yet here I am, still trying to figure out how to get you to stop these nasty tactics. I do not hold grudges or anger but I do remember.

 

 

Oh now it's "bother me". Before it was "break me". Interesting.

 

Do we get into what you have called me? You want to compare nasty comments Ali?

 

The pm you sent me in reply to my pm was fairly nice, clearly then you did not think my pm was a threat but "NOW" you need a crutch for some sympathy or something so your using that. Why are you so weak and needing protection from the big bad Times now?

 

All I am saying is be consistent, if you thought it was okay enough to send me a pretty nice pm in return, obviously I was not threatening you, you would not have held back if you saw it that way then.

 

 

 

Go fukk yourself. How's that for a lead? Now feel free to follow.

 

Well there is a nasty comment right there, how many times have I said that kind of thing to you in comparison Ali? I believe you have me at about 10,000/1.

 

 

What the fukk do you want from me? Romantic weekends at a B&B? Tickle fights? Tea parties?

 

We're not meant to be friends, TJ. Again, sorry to disappoint.

 

No Ali, you know what my point was.

 

I try very hard to show you I do not hold grudges and to treat you with respect, you do not do the same thing tword me. You have never shown me one speck of respect.

 

 

TJ - What you don't realize about me, because you aren't willing to see beyond what you THINK I am, is that I believe in fairness. If it's a woman being put down unfairly, I will stand up for the women. If it's a man being put down unfairly, I will stand up for the men. Young, old, fat, thin, blonde, brunette...if I truly think you're getting the short end of the stick, I'll stand up for you.

 

Ya, I saw that from you both here and at the jungle when I was being gangbanged.......wait that was you in the middle running the gangbangs, and it was you running the gangbang against other people as well...........how fair is that Ali?

 

Was it fair for you to call Tami bad names Ali? Fair?

 

I don't ALWAYS portray women as victims. I don't ALWAYS portray men in a negative light. Stating things in such absolutes just turns people off from discussing things from you. Do you seriously not see that?

 

You don't?

 

Now boys don't feel that pressure so they remain free to impregnate another girl...and another...and another...

 

What specific 'boys' were you talking about then being as you never use general blanket statements against males?

 

My point to you is you make up excuses instead of casting blame, you rarely say anything negative about actions of girls/women without figuring out a way to drag men into the blame. You even tried to drag in porn and claim men were horrible for "the objectification of women" and it was a mans business. Teen girls are not exposed to professional porn, but they are exposed to millions of women's magazines and women's shows that effect them greatly.

 

You know, I have been hurt in the past. Badly. I have been neglected, hit, shook, shoved, stolen from, verbally abused, and even raped....all at the hands of men. But do I hate men? NO!!!! After all of that, I still love men and prefer to judge them on an individual basis rather than lumping them all into the "fukken jerk" pile. My best friend is male. Many of my close friends are male. I see no reason to demonize the majority based on the deplorable actions of the few. In fact, if you knew me at all, you would know that when a group of my female co-horts start in on a heated man bashing session, I am one of the first to speak up and defend men with a "hey, hey now....they're not all bad!".

 

You never defended me even once.

 

But I fall into the jerk category right? Anything done to me is justified because I do not conform to what Ali deems is the 'right' frame of mind for a man?

 

I get the feeling that while you may not hate all men, only certain men who conform are allowed to be around you, are you the Alpha?

 

 

Again, I have not said you always blame men for everything, just that if there is any discussion concerning the decline in moral standards with women you "ALWAYS" drag men into it with excuses of how men are equally at fault for what women do.

 

And, I ask again, how is it a man must be responsible for a woman's reproductive system?

 

 

Please, for the love of God, stop saying I think ALL men are negative!!!!!! I don't!

 

Easy request, because I have never said that, I said you drag men into these conversations to direct attention away from women and diminish blame placed on women for their actions.

 

 

So now all we've accomplished is this thread is completely derailed and you and I are at eachother's throats again.

 

I am not at your throat.

 

Where have I lost my cool?

 

Where is my name calling and flames Ali?

 

What has been accomplished is you once again losing "YOUR" cool and going after my throat. How many times did you invite me to the flame forum at the jungle and call me coward before I decided to give you your shot Ali? 3, 4, 5 times? I do not like this stuff, but clearly you do.

 

I wrote you that pm asking for peace, I say in the open forum I want peace and I back that desire for peace with not behaving in an out of control and hate driven way. I again ask you to do the same.

 

Ehhh....whatever. Anything I say will be falling on deaf ears anyway so I have nothing further to add to this particular discussion.

 

Deaf ears Ali?

 

I listen more to your words than you would believe. I see our situation as a strange one because I really do respect you in many ways but this element of never allowing a discussion about women without dragging men into it so you can cast some blame on men for what women do is a tad confusing to me when I know how smart you really are.

 

Women are not robots to men, why do you keep trying to paint women as weak brainless victims of men?

 

I see women as independant of men in all ways.

 

 

 

Your not a victim Ali......why are you so fast to claim other females are?

 

If they are victims then I would have to say it is from other women, not men.

[emkay64]

Well then TJ...if you do believe men have no responsibility and women are 100% responsible for their "reproductive systems" and men hold no blame or responsibility because of their high sex drives...then they should have zero responsibility in the care of a child, or choice in their general well being. If it's all up to the women in the conception arena, then basically you are saying men are just glorified sperm donors. I respect men more than that. Enough to include them in the decision making process. If a man should be considered at all, there needs to be some responsibility before the fact too.

 

It's a contradiction. In the post about the casual sex encounter you felt the man needed to be told about the child (as did I)...but if it's all up to her in the sex department...in my mind he shouldn't expect to be included in any decisions regarding the female "reproductive system" after the fact either.

 

BTW I'm playing devil's advocate here...don't get all preachy and in an attack mode. I'm just needing you to clarify how you reason this out.

 

You are correct though. Women are responsible for using birth control and not getting pregnant..their bodies..need to be protected etc. I'm just saying the pressures exerted on teen females with hormones etc...do not make the best decision makers. Boys need to be take some responsibility too. I agree in adulthood...sure I'll bring the protection cause I know better. However teenage girls...oy vey....I'm amazed that some can count...never mind make appropriate decisions regarding sex.

[timesjoke]

Well then TJ...if you do believe men have no responsibility and women are 100% responsible for their "reproductive systems" and men hold no blame or responsibility because of their high sex drives...then they should have zero responsibility in the care of a child, or choice in their general well being. If it's all up to the women in the conception arena, then basically you are saying men are just glorified sperm donors. I respect men more than that. Enough to include them in the decision making process. If a man should be considered at all, there needs to be some responsibility before the fact too.

As usual my points are in responsibility.

 

Even Snaf agreed women flaunt their sexuality in extremes sometimes, let's consider the thong bikini for example.

 

I am not saying men are not part of the situation, but most are not informed enough about the woman's body to be making an informed decision. How does a man know if the woman is on the pill or not? If he asks and she says yes, should he trust her? There are complicated issues like where is she on her cycle, how can a man possibly know enough about the woman to be making an informed decision?

 

I hold men responsible for their part, they decided to not use a johnny hat and they deserve to be held responsible for the creation of the life just like the woman, but each have different results of their responsibility. Equally responsible, but their on different ends of the same teeter totter.

 

 

Only a woman can get pregnent, so the larger responsibility for controlling that falls on her, the man must be ready to offer support for the child should one get created.

 

 

It's a contradiction. In the post about the casual sex encounter you felt the man needed to be told about the child (as did I)...but if it's all up to her in the sex department...in my mind he shouldn't expect to be included in any decisions regarding the female "reproductive system" after the fact either.

 

Well that is the way it is now, men have zero say in the abortion process, women have said they do not want men to have any rights in the child creating process. Even the legal system forces men to get court orders to have the right to visit their own children but women are given custody on the spot.

 

 

Right now, by laws and the attitudes of the average woman, men are nothing more than sperm donors and ATM machines.

 

 

I said the woman had a responsibility in telling the man he created a life and I also said the lady had a responsibility to her child to tell the child the truth and to offer the most support possible in raising the child, I never, not once said the man had any rights, so no contradiction.

 

 

The only possible contradiction claim you may be able to come up with is my possition of abortion where I believe a man should be allowed to block the murder of his child, but I have never said a man should be in control of a woman's reproductive prevention, that system belongs to the woman and she has 100% of the choice in how that system functions and if she wants to protect it or not.

 

BTW I'm playing devil's advocate here...don't get all preachy and in an attack mode. I'm just needing you to clarify how you reason this out.

 

There is nothing wrong with your questions emkay, I love this kind of give and take, I only have issues when people like Ali have to make personal attacks. Did you see how she turned the saying my grandmother had about giving away the milk into a chance to again take a shot at Tami? She asked about my "cow", but again, I expect that out of her.

 

 

You are correct though. Women are responsible for using birth control and not getting pregnant..their bodies..need to be protected etc. I'm just saying the pressures exerted on teen females with hormones etc...do not make the best decision makers. Boys need to be take some responsibility too. I agree in adulthood...sure I'll bring the protection cause I know better. However teenage girls...oy vey....I'm amazed that some can count...never mind make appropriate decisions regarding sex.

 

Okay, now finally a woman without a huge chip on her shoulder and not afraid to say women have some responsibility in controlling their own internal functions, thank you very much emkay.

 

Really, thanks.

 

Now, if we compare girls of 100 years ago to girls of today can we agree that both had the exact same hormones? I would say we can agree that as a given so that should not be an element to consider what the change is in behaviors.

 

 

So what is it?

 

 

Protection today is ten times better and more widely available, education of girls is a million times better, my older sisters said their only source of information was our mother and other girls, sometimes other mothers of her friends but today we have very specific sex classes in all schools starting in elementary school. There is products on all the shelves in almost every store and there is the internet for very detailed information for all girls to see if they have questions they do not want to ask friends or family.

 

 

So better educated, better and more reliable methods of protection are available, but girls today get pregnant more often.......I place it mostly on attitude, what do you think it is?

[emkay64]

As usual my points are in responsibility.

 

Even Snaf agreed women flaunt their sexuality in extremes sometimes, let's consider the thong bikini for example.

 

I am not saying men are not part of the situation, but most are not informed enough about the woman's body to be making an informed decision. How does a man know if the woman is on the pill or not? If he asks and she says yes, should he trust her? There are complicated issues like where is she on her cycle, how can a man possibly know enough about the woman to be making an informed decision?

 

I hold men responsible for their part, they decided to not use a johnny hat and they deserve to be held responsible for the creation of the life just like the woman, but each have different results of their responsibility. Equally responsible, but their on different ends of the same teeter totter.

 

 

Only a woman can get pregnent, so the larger responsibility for controlling that falls on her, the man must be ready to offer support for the child should one get created.

 

 

 

 

Well that is the way it is now, men have zero say in the abortion process, women have said they do not want men to have any rights in the child creating process. Even the legal system forces men to get court orders to have the right to visit their own children but women are given custody on the spot.

 

 

Right now, by laws and the attitudes of the average woman, men are nothing more than sperm donors and ATM machines.

 

 

I said the woman had a responsibility in telling the man he created a life and I also said the lady had a responsibility to her child to tell the child the truth and to offer the most support possible in raising the child, I never, not once said the man had any rights, so no contradiction.

 

 

The only possible contradiction claim you may be able to come up with is my possition of abortion where I believe a man should be allowed to block the murder of his child, but I have never said a man should be in control of a woman's reproductive prevention, that system belongs to the woman and she has 100% of the choice in how that system functions and if she wants to protect it or not.

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with your questions emkay, I love this kind of give and take, I only have issues when people like Ali have to make personal attacks. Did you see how she turned the saying my grandmother had about giving away the milk into a chance to again take a shot at Tami? She asked about my "cow", but again, I expect that out of her.

 

 

 

 

Okay, now finally a woman without a huge chip on her shoulder and not afraid to say women have some responsibility in controlling their own internal functions, thank you very much emkay.

 

Really, thanks.

 

Now, if we compare girls of 100 years ago to girls of today can we agree that both had the exact same hormones? I would say we can agree that as a given so that should not be an element to consider what the change is in behaviors.

 

 

So what is it?

 

 

Protection today is ten times better and more widely available, education of girls is a million times better, my older sisters said their only source of information was our mother and other girls, sometimes other mothers of her friends but today we have very specific sex classes in all schools starting in elementary school. There is products on all the shelves in almost every store and there is the internet for very detailed information for all girls to see if they have questions they do not want to ask friends or family.

 

 

So better educated, better and more reliable methods of protection are available, but girls today get pregnant more often.......I place it mostly on attitude, what do you think it is?

 

I agree girls are the same. I agree with everything you said. I feel the responsibility lies with parents in the teaching of values anyways. I just think that boys need some tutoring too. Ehh in actuality teens are hard to gauge...some do well with the pressure and some just buckle. Instilling confidence is key...being comfortable to say no. I agree men have stronger sex drives absolutely...but when I was a teen...sex was not mental...I mean...it felt good and I didn't really care where we did it. It's definitely more mental as an adult though.

 

Girls haven't changed...but times sure have. Family isn't as important. I don't agree with throwing money at a problem. Never will. If it's going to get better it starts at the roots. Until parents take more responsibility in the parenting arena instead of letting magazines, boys, peers and the media in general do the value instilling....then teen pregnancy will only get worse. I don't believe that society as a whole can do much to change any of that unfortunately. Yes birth control is more accessible, but when some teens are embarrassed to buy a box of tampons, they probably won't be so comfortable going for the other stuff. BTW I would never trust a gas station condom either lol.

 

 

Bottom line...strong core values, confidence and self-worth...most don't have them. I think that's it.

 

BTW...your last post is pretty much exactly what Ali meant I'm sure of it. It had a lot more tact and was not accusatory. It's a welcome form of debate

[RoyalOrleans]

What were we talking about?