You're not buying this "competition" horsesh!t are you?

[phreakwars]

Jesus Christ I'm taking on 4 right wingers on this site and 3 on another, like I'm gonna keep up with all this .

 

I have no choice but short summary's. But I DO however have an advantage...

 

My thoughts on health care are STILL felt by the MAJORITY of people and that's all I need. Doesn't matter how many ANTI-PUBLIC HEALTH complaints you wanna try debating. Democrats STILL win. HAHA.

.

.

[ImWithStupid]

Jesus Christ I'm taking on 4 right wingers on this site and 3 on another, like I'm gonna keep up with all this .

 

I have no choice but short summary's. But I DO however have an advantage...

♠

My thoughts on health care are STILL felt by the MAJORITY of people and that's all I need. Doesn't matter how many ANTI-PUBLIC HEALTH complaints you wanna try debating. Democrats STILL win. HAHA.

.

.

 

Appearantly in your own mind, because I've proven that statement false.

[phreakwars]

You have? WHERE? i SEE NO PROOF ANYWHERE TO BE FOUND.

.

.

[ImWithStupid]

I guess I can't help a blind squirrel find the acorn that is put before him.

[phreakwars]

An Email from a person down under.

 

Posted on Democratic underground.

 

I'd be interested to hear Anna Perenna's take on health care down under. She's not exactly the "POOR" class and probably has to buy her own.

 

But anyways, from

Email from my cousin in Australia about their health care system - Democratic Underground

 

An email from my cousin in Australia, about their health care system.

 

She grew up in New Zealand, now lives in Australia, and her siblings (my other cousins) still live in NZ. Keep in mind she is 49 years old. Names disguised for privacy sake.

 

My question

 

> I was reading on the internet that NZ has "public" health care where the

> government pays for much of your

> visits to hospitals and or for surgery? And that if you want "speedier"

> health care, you can purchase private health insurance.

 

 

My cousin's answer:

 

That's right, NZ's government has always been 'for the people', our healthcare system is very good indeed.

I'ts been a long time since I lived in NZ though and I don't have the most recent information on their services .

But when I was growing up in NZ everything was free, schooling, (except private schooling and University),

medical care, dental care, prescriptions, ambulance etc however once a person becomes a wage earner they must pay

for their own dental care although for low income earners or other people in diffuclt circumstances,

the government will subsidise the cost of medicine and treatment. Housing is subsidised too.

 

A couple of years ago A--- and I went over to NZ with C---- who had picked up a virus at one of the airports,

when we arrived in NZ we took him to the local hospital and they gave C---- the very best care,

they provided us with medicine, an after care programme and it cost us absolutely nothing!

 

 

My question

 

What is that like?

 

 

 

My cousin's answer:

 

NZ and Australia have a similar system, most hospital care is free however if you want elective or cosmetic surgery you must pay for it.

 

Medical insurance is a good thing to have, here the government actually pays for some of it as a tax refund.

 

A---- and I have private cover, so we have more choice, I can either go to a public hosptial for free or I can choose

to go to a private hospital and my medical insurance will pay for it.

The advantage of medical insurance is you don't have to wait as long for treatment and the medical care is often better as a paying patient.

.

.

[phreakwars]

What I got from that, is first of all, it debunks TJ's claim of less money for his brother in law. He would not be forced to be a public provider working on a government check. He would have the option of doing what many Dr.'s in America NOW do already, and that is be a private practitioner who caters to only insured people. He is then free to play this "suck the insurance companies for more money" game that keeps that BMW in his garage like he always wanted, over providing legitimate care to humans because he wants to help them.

 

It also debunks the myth that it drives out private insurers. Obviously, there is motivation to buy private insurance.... better care.

 

Would long waiting lines and rationing be an issue? Yep, they would, and I have long contended that WOULD be the case on a public option. SO WHAT IS ONE TO DO? Duh, go buy private insurance.

 

Of course Dr's will be in short supply from the start. That's why we need that pesky pork program of educating people. All that damn stimulus spending into the trillions for generations, doing these pork like things giving Dr's degree is thinking LONG TERM for the health of our country.

 

So to anyone complaining about "COMPETITION BEING OUTED" and in the same breath complaining about "RATIONED HEALTH CARE"

 

How do you get rationed health care from a private practitioner you would be paying for and only catered to you and not that riff raff government subsidized type?

.

.

[RoyalOrleans]

What's funny is listening to people fear rationed health care, yet in the same breath, these same people wanna ration health care for others who aren't in their class.

 

Economics 101 tells us that, ceteris paribus, as the price of something goes down, demand goes up. So when healthcare becomes "free," the demand goes through the roof, and so does the cost. The government can only take in so much in taxes, so at some point care must be rationed. Rationing comes in many forms. Long waits, denied services, etc. If you don't pay with your own money, you will pay in long waits, poor service, and, in some cases, with your life.

 

"WELL THIS PERSON SMOKES, THIS GUYS TOO FAT, THESE GUYS ARE TOO POOR, THIS GUY DOESN'T HAVE A JOB" Therefore THEY don't deserve the same health care YOU get, oh no... if they were included then YOU might have to worry about your care being rationed. Heaven forbid if you have to pay for some of that care... but then.

 

If the government is going to MANDATE health coverage for every person living in these here United States, then I want my tax dollar to pay for only the healthy and sound. I'm not paying for some trash's smoking cessation paraphenalia, or lyposuction for the human compost heap, or the lazy bastard unwilling to work to change his situation.

 

This way, the healthier will use less of my money, and I can hopefully eek out some life for myself with my own earned income.

 

The truth is, you are ultimately obligated to take care of your own damn self. It's not up to your fukken neighbor!

 

WHAT WOULD YOU DO if you lost your job or became too sick to work and didn't have the money for insurance? Get subsidies? As in let the government help you stay well, and your kids stay well so that you CAN go out and get a job.

 

I wouldn't put any faith, hope, or trust in a government run healthcare system!

 

Like I said before, private providers will STILL have a place in a public insurance system.

 

It is the very nature of competing businesses to try to run each other out of the marketplace. Government health care will be no different. The bureaucrats and politicians behind the government health plan, recognizing that every switch from private sector to government insurance increases government dependency, will fight to destroy the private market. This won't be hard to do, after all the private insurance market will have to earn a profit. The government insurance scheme will not.

 

Ask anybody who is living off subsidized medicine now if THEY can get that heart transplant, or surgery for the knee, and other such things... the answer is HELL NO. And in a public insurance system, it would be the same way. That isn't rationing, it's what you get for your money.

 

Barbara Bush recently had open-heart surgery. She's fine. This should be of interest to you however. As soon as we get the Democrat's nationalized medicine your chances of getting open-heart surgery at her age will be somewhat similar to my chances of waking up tomorrow with my fukken mortgage paid off!

 

Commissar Obama is really pushing this nationalized medicine thing. Remember .. in Obama's mind America's greatness comes from government - on only government can provide us with a great health care system. Private sector? Forget it. If there are any certainties in our life - one would be the certainty of rationed health care in our future.

 

Inferior care... sure is, but, for people who don't even qualify for subsidized care, it would be a great alternative. You don't need MAJOR MEDICAL COVERAGE to survive. Just the basics like Dr. visits covered, dentists to pull teeth, not put in gold grillz or work that is made for show like breast implants, crowns, etc...

 

Barack Obama says that his thoughts on healthcare are "evolving." Oh really? Well what are they "evolving" toward? It seems as though Obama is okay with the idea of mandating that individuals purchase health insurance. Of course, there would be a waiver for the poor, poor, pitiful poor. Where in our Constitution does it give the federal government the authority that private citizens buy anything, let alone health insurance? I've tried, but I just can't find it there. Then I suddenly realized what an idiot I was for trying to find a Constitutional justification for an Obama plan.

 

Now get this ... this is his explanation as to why he thinks that mandates for all people are a good thing: "People have made some pretty compelling arguments to me that if we want to have a system that drives down costs for everybody, then we've got to have healthier people not opt out of the system." Ohhhhh ... that's ObamaLogic for you.

 

So, in the World According to Obama, even if you are healthy and/or could afford to pay for your own healthcare costs as they arise, the government still wants to force you into its system. Why is that? Not because you need their health insurance, but because they need your money. Duh. If you are a healthier person that is forced into paying for health insurance, naturally you are going to choose the least expensive option, which in this case may be the government option. Now you know you aren't really going to use the services, but hey .. at least you are avoiding that pesky government fine. So now, your payments can be used to subsidize the healthcare of some government leach.

 

THAT is what people want. But of course Republicans gotta fall for the lobbyist scam getting played on them by the insurance companies and believe that the care proposed is something different. Myself, I don't fall for the scare tactics of the lobbyist that Republicans have so foolishly done only because they wanna play politics.

 

Ohhh soooo typical, Komrade.

 

Keep playing politics and bitching about rationed this, and drive out business that. I still side with the people. Not my fault the people majority happen to be Democrats.

 

You forgot the cleverly placed "rollseyes" emoticon next to Democrats, Komrade.

 

Ohhh... and was Obama bitching about the rationing of healthcare.

 

Ruin Your Health With The Obama Stimulus Plan

[RoyalOrleans]

In addition to that article:

 

Proponents of socialist healthcare here in the US virtually never cite any of the realities of any of the existing "socialist" systems, be it one in Canada, Sweden, France, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, etc. Their system is always based on some non-existent, utopian system where all the treatments and outcomes will of course be "fair and equal".

 

How can that possibly happen when by its very nature all services under such a system will have to be rationed? Its just common sense that any service, if its perceived to be free, is going to be exploited.

 

In a 2005 ruling Canada's federal and provincial governments tried to fix the long wait times by issuing new targets one being a 26 wk wait for hip replacements. What is the reality? I have an uncle in his late 70's, who lives in Regina, SK which is literally the "cradle of socialized healthcare" in North America given its introduction in the province back in July 1962. He finally got a hip replaced ~ a year ago, but only after hobbling around with a cane for 2+ years.

 

And that's with a system that already has "rationalized" supply and demand for medical services. Think about what will happen here in the US when “universal coverage" will be extended to the estimated 37 million who have no insurance.

 

Nowhere in the discussion have the proponents of socialized healthcare in the US mentioned that key in the Canadian system, is the use of a "premium" or "deterrent fees". It serves as a kind of hurdle to dampen demand for unnecessary services, notably for hypocondriacs and the proverbial "little old ladies" who reason "that if its Tuesday its time for their regular doctor visit", which is in fact a disguised social outing. That scenario represents a very real attracted cost to any socialized system.

 

Another result given the politics and turnout of old people in elections, has been the setting of an "appropriate" deterrent fee which has been a factor to varying degrees in virtually every Canadian provincial election since late 1962 when socialized healthcare was introduced across the country. Don't think that would happen here? Think again!

 

Make no mistake about the limousine liberals and the ObamaBots motives in promising "universal healthcare". It has already started with the recent backdoor passage of additions to the existing "State Children’s Health Insurance Program" ("SCHIP"), which is now geared for families making up to $80K. Its to be paid for by an increase in taxes on tobacco products. SCHIP represents the political "thick end of the wedge" for the Dems to get real socialized medicine in this country.

 

Its not so much a case of apparent liberal "concerns about the apparent lack of universal healthcare coverage" for children as it is about liberals wanting to exert ever more control over all of us, making us ever more dependent on big government as the solution for everything. Future votes for Democrats can then be assured. And that's what its all about.

[phreakwars]

I can rebut that in one sentence for every complaint you have about it.

 

 

BUY HEALTH INSURANCE.

 

Don't want rationing, and long lines.. buy health insurance. Unemployed, your kids are hungry, and you just know your not gonna

 

put any faith, hope, or trust in a government run healthcare system!

EVEN THOUGH your out of a job, then BUY HEALTH INSURANCE, come on, even though your unemployed, you can afford it. Remember, you are ultimately obligated to take care of your own damn self.

 

Afraid of competition being tossed out?

 

BUY HEALTH INSURANCE. Keep em in business.

 

The funniest part about Nebraska, is the majority of people who complain about the governments version of caring for them, can usually be found in waiting lines at the store with their Nebraska food debt card complaining about socialism, illegals, and liberals.

 

Makes me wonder if it's like that in the other states as well.

.

.

[RoyalOrleans]

I can rebut that in one sentence for every complaint you have about it.

 

 

BUY HEALTH INSURANCE.

 

I have and I will continue.

 

Don't want rationing, and long lines.. buy health insurance. Unemployed, your kids are hungry, and you just know your not gonna

 

If I did have children, I would do everything in my power to continue whatever coverage they had before I lost my job.

 

Only the best for my children. I don't care what you do with yours.

 

EVEN THOUGH your out of a job, then BUY HEALTH INSURANCE, come on, even though your unemployed, you can afford it. Remember, you are ultimately obligated to take care of your own damn self.

 

Absolutely I am obligated to provide for me and mine. I would continue to pay for my family's coverage! It's making sacrifices to provide for the family. It's cutting expenses, saving, clipping coupons, et.al.

 

The problem is, most of you supporters of government run healthcare don't want to give up certain things to provide for your family.

 

Sure my children are sick and malnourished, but I've absolutely got to have my high speed internet access and my big screen television!

 

Afraid of competition being tossed out?

 

No I'm afraid of the kind of people who run the government funded health care system. After the initial push, the employees will become nothing more than a rabble of looters, affirmative action thugs, hoodrats, and folk simply too stupid to work anywhere else.

 

BUY HEALTH INSURANCE. Keep em in business.

 

I fully intend to.

 

CONTINUE TO LEECH OFF THE GOVERNMENT'S TIT. Keep the government in every aspect of your life. Your children have such a role model.

 

The funniest part about Nebraska, is the majority of people who complain about the governments version of caring for them, can usually be found in waiting lines at the store with their Nebraska food debt card complaining about socialism, illegals, and liberals.

 

Makes me wonder if it's like that in the other states as well.

.

.

 

Oh yeah... it's rabid.

 

And these same hypocrites don't vote, either.

[phreakwars]

Gotta love all those easier said then done answers you just gave with no way of saying HOW you'd get it done. Truth be told, when it came down to it, you'd be hanging out at the soup line waiting for your own bowl to get filled as well. Saving your anti government complaints for later when your home and nobody is none the wiser.

.

.

[RoyalOrleans]

Gotta love all those easier said then done answers you just gave with no way of saying HOW you'd get it done. Truth be told, when it came down to it, you'd be hanging out at the soup line waiting for your own bowl to get filled as well. Saving your anti government complaints for later when your home and nobody is none the wiser.

.

.

 

If I want soup, I shall make my own soup. I will not lick the government spoon, but there I can't speak for everyone.

 

And regardless of your little assumptions there, Bendy, I am not anti-government. If I sound anti-government it is because, I favor small government run by the few that represent their constituencies.

[timesjoke]

 

My thoughts on health care are STILL felt by the MAJORITY of people and that's all I need. Doesn't matter how many ANTI-PUBLIC HEALTH complaints you wanna try debating. Democrats STILL win. HAHA.

 

America was never meant to be operated on a principle of "mob rule".

 

 

You keep dodging my questions.

 

Can you admit that even the Canadian suppreme court found that waiting lines were killing Canadians?

 

 

You debate from an absense of facts and rely on emotional urges for taking care of the lazy as if that alone is a good enough reason to ignore the fact that government controlled healthcare equals worse medical care for everyone like people pulling their own teeth from home because they can't wait 6 months with the pain and no treatment.

[emkay64]

America was never meant to be operated on a principle of "mob rule".

 

 

You keep dodging my questions.

 

Can you admit that even the Canadian suppreme court found that waiting lines were killing Canadians?

 

 

You debate from an absense of facts and rely on emotional urges for taking care of the lazy as if that alone is a good enough reason to ignore the fact that government controlled health care equals worse medical care for everyone like people pulling their own teeth from home because they can't wait 6 months with the pain and no treatment.

 

That's hilarious!

 

I live here...if I need a filling or a fukking tooth pulled I go today. Seriously...you don't live here so shut the fuk up already! If I need a doctor's appt...I go today to a walk in clinic or I can go today to see my own doctor. If I need to see a specialist I may wait a month. If it's emergent like a friend I have with breast cancer...she has waited a week and will have her surgery tomorrow. You may have a few loons that wanna extract their own teeth, but they sure do not need to wait. In any place you are going to have some horror stories regarding the healthcare system, but all in all it does not reflect the majority. Your system has no doubt killed it's fair share of people with HMOs looking for ways they don't have to pay out, and I bet more than a few have died in a waiting room waiting for that insurance to clear. As far as doctor shortages...that may be true...they may wanna make millions more and if that's the case move on. Things still seem to be good for me....but I'm not a big whiny, tit complainer that thinks I need to see a doctor on demand. I can wait an hour if I have to...geez!

 

Find a new example...because I have never had an issue here.

 

I might also add...I'm not suggesting that this system is for Americans...please feel free to do whatever y'all want. I'm saying...it has worked for me, and my family...and friends. In actuality neither country should be adopting either model of current health care. Both need some amendments. However...I'd rather have mine than yours. If doctors wanna go to the States...well get going!

[timesjoke]

If waiting lines are not bad why did your own suppreme court say the waiting lists were killing Canadians? I think your not being honest about this Emkay.

 

Wait Time Alliance

 

http://www.waittimealliance.ca/June2009/Report-card-June2009_e.pdf

 

In the above report it shows clear massive waiting times where the majority of Canadians wait more than 18 weeks for many treatments.

 

Using your breast cancer example:

 

Median Wait Time for Curative Cancer Care in Canada for breast cancer is almost 60 days wait, that can be the difference between life and death or even the difference between saving a woman's breast or having to remove it.

 

 

Why are so many Canadian people comming to America for treatments?

 

 

Why is it even their government is sending patients they cannot treat to America such as many premature births and heart problems that they cannot treat in their own hospitals?

[emkay64]

TJ....

 

Yes...there are wait times. People wait...and I'm sure some have died waiting...and yes the supreme court admits problems. Wow....what a concept...Canadian government admitting there are problems..how unusual. I'm saying...that I am 35...my family is riddled with cancer...recent emergencies, and a lifetime of this same care policy.

 

I can only use direct examples as proof. My friend was diagnosed with stage one breast cancer...however the form is fast growing apparently. It took one week for her to get her surgery date.

 

My dad is having both knees replaced..it is not emergent...just painful...he's waited six months (because he's rescheduled twice due to farming)..and is not complaining. My daughter Emily waited a year for a non-emergent tonsillectomy, no problem.

 

Craig got in for emergent facial reconstruction immediately no waiting. We walked in and walked out...no bill. Keep in mind he had 6 facial CT's, one brain CT, 4 nights in hospital, facial reconstruction, titanium plates, and 2 neuro consults).

 

My daughter Kayley got in immediately for complications involving asthma.

 

I recently had a filling and crown replaced all in two days.

 

Yes...we wait...but we all get seen...and I don't have to declare bankrupcy to pay.

 

Craig's boss does go to the States for his heart surgery and mri's and he's a multimillionaire that has costs in the million dollar range for his health care in the states (he really enjoys talking about what everything costs rolls eyes )Yes he can afford to pay for an immediate surgery...but really TJ...many can't. Keep in mind the heart surgeons here are qualified lol. He just doesn't like being told when his surgery will be. Fine...go pay...no problem.

 

I realize this is Wikipedia...but as far as what Canadian health care covers it is spot on. The wait times are fairly accurate...but most I know...have been earlier, maybe due to the emergent nature. I don't disagree that waits can be irritating, but seriously...no one I know is complaining. I am saying that both have issues...neither plan should replace another. I'm just saying I like ours better. I'm also saying pick a new model for ty health care in your inept arguments, because it isn't holding water. Maybe propose a new model instead of bitching about one you personally know nothing about. For everyone I know...they seem happy with it. I know of no one pulling their own teeth, nor do I know anyone who died in a waiting room. Oh...and preemies and heart problems can be taken care of here lol. My cousin Lonnie was born with (I don't know the term)...but a hole in his aorta. He had open heart surgery at 3...and also at 16...and he had his surgeries here. We DO have qualified doctors believe it or not lol.

 

Canadian and American health care systems compared - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[timesjoke]

Why would you think a wiki post as more accurate then the official study I already posted that put the average wait times at 18 weeks or more?

 

Maybe because your own Canadian studies are very critical of it's healthcare?

 

You have a shortage of nurses, a shortage of doctors so bad your dropping immergation standards to try and get doctors from other under developed Countries because your own people don't want those jobs.......why?

 

Just tell me this, why do you have an annual big meeting called the "Taming of the Queue" if there are no massive waiting lists?

 

 

There are litterally thousands of these stories:

 

CP24- Parents separated from baby after transfer to US hospital because they lack passports - CTV News, Shows and Sports -- Canadian Television

 

HAMILTON ? A critically-ill premature-born baby from Hamilton is all alone in a Buffalo, N.Y., hospital after she was turned away for treatment at local facility and transferred across the border without her parents, who don't have passports.

 

Ava Stinson was born Thursday at St. Joseph's Hospital, 14 weeks premature.

 

A provincewide search for an open neonatal intensive care unit bed came up empty, leaving no choice but to send the two pound, four ounce baby to Buffalo.

 

Her parents Natalie Paquette and Richard Stinson couldn't follow their child because as of June 1, a passport is required to cross the border into the United States.

 

They're having to approve medical procedures over the phone and are terrified something will happen to their baby before they get there.

 

The Canadian Consulate in Buffalo is providing advice and guidance to the first-time parents, and their local MP, New Democrat David Christopherson, is working to arrange emergency passports.

 

But that will take until at least Monday afternoon and the situation is complicated by the fact the baby's dad has a criminal record.

 

"I just want to be with her," said Paquette.

 

"She only knows my heartbeat, my voice and her daddy's voice. It's all I can think about. I feel so helpless."

 

So my question is an easy one, once America switches, Canada will no longer have this safety net they have been getting by with for over 20 years. What do you guys do then?

[emkay64]

Why would you think a wiki post as more accurate then the official study I already posted that put the average wait times at 18 weeks or more?

 

Maybe because your own Canadian studies are very critical of it's healthcare?

 

You have a shortage of nurses, a shortage of doctors so bad your dropping immergation standards to try and get doctors from other under developed Countries because your own people don't want those jobs.......why?

 

Just tell me this, why do you have an annual big meeting called the "Taming of the Queue" if there are no massive waiting lists?

 

 

There are litterally thousands of these stories:

 

CP24- Parents separated from baby after transfer to US hospital because they lack passports - CTV News, Shows and Sports -- Canadian Television

 

 

 

So my question is an easy one, once America switches, Canada will no longer have this safety net they have been getting by with for over 20 years. What do you guys do then?

 

Sigh...I never said we don't have problems...I admitted that we admit our problems. I said I don't think either country should adopt either countries' policies. I said personally I like ours and for 35 years it has worked nicely for ME and MINE! You can site thousands of examples as I'm sure there are thousands of examples of crappy health care in the States. Why do you want to fight so bad...because I'm happy with what I have? Too bad...deal with it.

 

As far as Americans switching over to a universal health care system that no one has defined and this so called safety net thing you are babbling about, you'll have to be more specific because I'm not sure what you are dithering about. I don't think anyone said that Americans would be converting to the exact same system Canadians have...I would hope they would be making changes for the better, but whatever. Explain this safety net thing and what exactly Americans are converting to (because I have no idea)...and then I can better respond.

[timesjoke]

Sigh...I never said we don't have problems...I admitted that we admit our problems. I said I don't think either country should adopt either countries' policies. I said personally I like ours and for 35 years it has worked nicely for ME and MINE! You can site thousands of examples as I'm sure there are thousands of examples of crappy health care in the States. Why do you want to fight so bad...because I'm happy with what I have? Too bad...deal with it.

 

You tried to state there was no issue with waiting lines, you gave examples of just walking in to get any treatment you wanted.

 

I offered facts that prove you were not being honest about your waiting times...I am not wanting to fight, just wanting to discuss things from a fact basis. I find it hard to believe you have no personal experience with waiting times when it is listed as Canada's biggest domestic problem for several years running but I will be happy to call you the exception, not the rule.

 

Your happy with a system that rations healthcare to the point people die waiting for their medical care.......I do not want that for America or my loved ones so when Bender says he wants to have a Canadian system for America I offer my reasons for not wanting the Government involved in healthcare.

 

 

As far as Americans switching over to a universal health care system that no one has defined and this so called safety net thing you are babbling about, you'll have to be more specific because I'm not sure what you are dithering about. I don't think anyone said that Americans would be converting to the exact same system Canadians have...I would hope they would be making changes for the better, but whatever. Explain this safety net thing and what exactly Americans are converting to (because I have no idea)...and then I can better respond.

 

I posted a link and story about the safety net America provides for Canada.

 

Every year thousands of patients are sent to American hospitals because the Canadian system cannot handle them. In the story I just posted All of Canada did not have a place for this premature baby to go so it had to be sent to America to receive care.....that is called a safety net.

 

 

With all things there are steps, once our Government crosses the line to get into private medical issues they will keep finding new excuses to "improve" it just like they do with everything else. Today it is Government run healthcare that eventually runs all private insurance out of business because most of their customer base has been removed. The next step is discovering that they do not have the tax money to pay out all the claims so they will have two choices.

 

1 - Raise taxes severely to fund the Government insurance......

 

2 - Reduce costs from reduced payouts to providers or restrict access to some treatments.

 

 

I personally believe we will see higher taxes at first but when it is clear that they cannot raise taxes enough to properly fund something like this without major changes.....they will then turn to forcing down what doctors can charge for treatments. That I believe will cause many doctors to get out of the business, just like what is happening in Canada.

[emkay64]

Whatever TJ...you are content to skew everything to your warped way of thinking. I said we have issues...but so do you! A lot of issues. I'm saying it has been good for me. Great actually. I can just walk in to a walk in clinic. I did just walk Craig in with his face smashed and get treatment. My friend went in for a mammogram and had her biopsy in the course of a month and got her surgery in a week. If it's emergent I've never had a case where I had to wait. Maybe I'm lucky. I'm sorry if this is all pissing you off or that you believe everything you read as gospel. I'm saying for everyone I know it has been fine...we aren't complaining. There is lots of literature on both systems being fukked so what are you fighting for?

 

As far as that safety net bull ...I've never used it and neither has my family. Besides I hardly call paying in excess of $300, 000 for a procedure a safety net...but whatever. If you love your system that's fukking fantastic. I'm saying that you can spout all kinds of literature about the Canadian system sucking and that's fine...but I'm Canadian...I live here...and I like it. I don't doubt that there have been atrocities of all kinds...but it doesn't only happen on one side of the border lol. I agreed that waiting can be annoying...but you guys fukking wait all the time too...so give me a break. Only an uneducated fool can't admit to problems with a system. I don't believe it's perfect....never said I did...just said I liked "what we have to date" better and your stupid "tooth pulling" example was reaching even for you.

 

So in response...no safety net...no problem! Not for me! Just wanted you to know that not every one here is crying in our beers over the health care system.

[phreakwars]

I know I'd rather deal with the issues of a Canadian medical policy then an American one. You won't lose your home and find yourself in debt till your dead in Canada.

 

And who ever said we wanted to adopt the Canadian plan anyway? How bout we Adopt England's plan, or Australia's?, or France?

 

I don't hear none of them bitching.

 

In the American system, Capitalism rules over care. No other country puts a price tag on the health of it's citizens like America does. And for that, I am ashamed of this country. America will actually dump an elderly person with dementia who can't pay in the street and leave them to fend for themselves. THIS is the kind of great care TJ is so proud of in America?

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[timesjoke]

Well you bvoth love to be untruthful with your comments and I guess that is to be expected when your only objective is on thing reguadrless what the facts say.

 

 

Emkay, for you to claim there are no waiting times problems but your entire Country from the suppreme court to local doctors all saying there is a massive problem shows your not willing to be honest. What I posted was not idle gossip from unreliable sources, it was hard facts provided by the medical facilities themselves.

 

You refuse to address the massive shortage for doctors, estimated to reach 10,000 short in the next few years as well as the severe shortage of nurses.

 

You refuse to even admit many Canadian medical needs are shipped to America like the premature baby story I just posted because Canada just cannot keep up with the needs of their Nation.

 

 

Why?

 

Because they are run and controlled by the Government, there is no incentive to excell or be innovative because you get the same pay either way so just sit back and do the minimum. Sure many care, but how many people work for free? How long with you be over worked and underpaid before you begin to get jaded?

 

 

Yes, America does have it's problems but it is not as bad as most claim. You speak of not waiting for emergency care and guess what, neither does any American. Everyone gets emergency care reguardless of their abulity to pay.

 

The poor all get free medical care, in the numbers offered for those without medical coverage they include people on Government programs that offer free medical treatments so it is not like these people are not getting medical care, they are getting great medical care.

 

The last big number offered as "Americans" without health care are not actually Americans, they are illegals who are here using our system to get free care sure, but they are not insured or on the welfare systems yet so they go to the emergency room and just don't pay the bills. Any system Obama creats will still have that problem to deal with.

 

 

I am not angry or otherwise upset, I just find it interesting that you guys hide behind such untrue flowery comments about "free" medical systems when every "free" system out there has long waiting lines and people suffering while they wait.

 

 

I guess my question is are we America or a socialist Nation? Canada, Europe, Cuba, all Nations with "free" healthcare are socialist or communist. Is that what we really want?

[ImWithStupid]

I know I'd rather deal with the issues of a Canadian medical policy then an American one. You won't lose your home and find yourself in debt till your dead in Canada.

 

And who ever said we wanted to adopt the Canadian plan anyway? How bout we Adopt England's plan, or Australia's?, or France?

 

I don't hear none of them bitching.

 

In the American system, Capitalism rules over care. No other country puts a price tag on the health of it's citizens like America does. And for that, I am ashamed of this country. America will actually dump an elderly person with dementia who can't pay in the street and leave them to fend for themselves. THIS is the kind of great care TJ is so proud of in America?

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.

 

 

http://Off Topic Forum.com/on-topic-bs/34832-this-really-frightens-me.html

 

First hand account from someone in GB posted February 18th...

 

I am pissed off, fed up, depressed, miserable and just HAD ENOUGH! I'm not asking for sympathy, just letting you know what's going in in my life.

 

Since just before Christmas I've been ill, very ill really to the point that I've lost about 20lbs by simply not being able to eat. This is especially horrible due to the fact that THIS year was going to be a good one after the repulsiveness of last year.

 

I've been messed about by the docs and the hospital, had some godawful tests and loads of dead ends, until finally, today, I got a bit of a diagnosis....I have polyps in my gall bladder.

 

I feel like , nauseous and like I can't eat more than a few mouthfuls of anything. It actually feels as if my stomach has shrunk to the size of a tennis ball. Doing anything leaves me tired and breathless due to being horribly anaemic. I look like , pale and washed out and just ill. I'm lonely as hell because I don't have any friends around here (I'm usually at work all day).

 

I can't go anywhere because I get sick in the car. I NEVER get sick, but this seems to just make me want to throw up however I move. Even walking more than a few yards is NOT good! I'm sleeping 13+ hours a day and worn out for the rest of it.

 

I want to go back to work, to have MY life back....but I can't get a specialist's appointment until 30th March! It's all taking too long and I hate it.

 

I'm starting to wonder if I have a target on my head saying 'Please here'.

 

Argh!

 

So anyway, if I don't seem to be my usual self....this is why.

http://www.2thejungle.com/postview_6256.asp

 

Rationed, single payer, health care.

 

 

Single payer plans on a mass scale, always put a "price tag on the health of their citizens". And in your analogy about the old person with dementia, out on the streets, that would be the failed Medicare plan, in place, that they plan on modeling the "government option" off of.

 

I will admit that I wouldn't doubt that the system works in places like Australia and New Zealand. There are a lot of social programs that are quite possible in countries with low populations. New Zealand has about 4.5 million people, Australia with 22 million people compared to the 300 million citizens plus 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants.

[phreakwars]

Are you serious?

 

I want to go back to work, to have MY life back....but I can't get a specialist's appointment until 30th March! It's all taking too long and I hate it.

You think that's a Canada only problem? My daughter needs to see the specialist up in Omaha for her eyes (yet again), we have to wait 3 months (yet again), because that's the earliest he can get her in. AND I HAVE GOOD COVERAGE.

 

Don't give me that BS about Canada's wait times when America is no better... in fact, we are worse.., I'm sure you have heard the emergency room horror stories. After that stupid ass wait just to get her eyes worked on, I then get a huge ass bill. In Canada I wouldn't. I'll take her wait any time.

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[timesjoke]

The waiting times are ten times as long in Canada, don't take my word for it, look at the official studies and the "Taming of the Queue" meetings they have every year, and the Canadian suppreme court that all agree that the waiting times in Canada are killing Canadians.

 

If you have great insurance but can't get an appointment it is a problem with the doctor, not the insurance. In our system you are able to shop around and look for a better doctor but under Obamacare, there will no longer be competition for your business and everyone will make the same money for the same treatments so no reason to offer you better service because your trapped to take what they give you.

 

We will lose about 70% of our doctors just like Canada, Europe, Denmark, Cuba, everywhere the Government tries to get in the way of medical treatment, there is low quality care with long waiting lines........I do not want that system myself, why must most of Americans lose great medical treatment just because a few lazy people want free medical treatments?