You're not buying this "competition" horsesh!t are you?

[phreakwars]

Didn't I cover that and answer that once before. Americans will still have the option of PRIVATE PRACTITIONERS who ONLY cater to the insured. It's as simple as that.

 

It gives people a reason to buy health coverage, and gives them a choice in their health care.

.

.

[ImWithStupid]

Are you serious?

 

You think that's a Canada only problem? My daughter needs to see the specialist up in Omaha for her eyes (yet again), we have to wait 3 months (yet again), because that's the earliest he can get her in. AND I HAVE GOOD COVERAGE.

 

Don't give me that BS about Canada's wait times when America is no better... in fact, we are worse.., I'm sure you have heard the emergency room horror stories. After that stupid ass wait just to get her eyes worked on, I then get a huge ass bill. In Canada I wouldn't. I'll take her wait any time.

.

.

 

 

No, that's why it's a story from Great Britain (GB)

 

Just like this one is.

 

Doctors and other medical staff claim widespread "ambulance warehousing" of patients is an attempt by managers to meet targets for waiting times. Patients who are left in car parks outside hospitals do not count on waiting time statistics.They only become "official" once they are in a hospital building. They must then be treated within four hours.

The British Medical Association (BMA) reported to MPs last week that hospital managers are using ambulances to massage their waiting time figures. "If the patients are unloaded [from ambulances], the clock starts ticking in A&E," the BMA said.

Hospital chiefs privately admit that there is a link between pressure from Alan Milburn, the health secretary, to cut hospital waiting times and a surge of ambulance "delays".

"People are obviously exploiting this loophole to make the figures look less bad," said one.

Across the country at least half of all ambulances are failing to meet the 15-minute turn-round target for delivering emergency patients to hospital, and ambulance paramedics often have to act as nurses in over-stretched casualty departments.

 

 

Paramedics report queues of up to a dozen ambulances waiting outside hospitals with their engines running. Crews are unable to attend other emergencies because they are having to care for patients. Recent incidents include:

• 
  [ ]A 64-year-old woman who had collapsed in pain with a suspected tumour having to wait in an ambulance outside Queen Alexandra hospital, Cosham, Hampshire, for three hours.
  [ ]A 30-year-old man suffering fits and convulsions having to be cared for by ambulance staff for 5? hours before being allowed into Bristol Royal Infirmary.
  [ ]Ambulance crews changing shifts while looking after a patient for seven hours outside Birmingham City hospital. Mark Weatherhead, general secretary of the Association of Professional Ambulance Personnel, said ambulance warehousing had reached crisis levels even before the onset of the coldest weather of the winter.
  

"We are having waits of up to nine hours, which means ambulances are not available for other emergencies," he said.

"We can't say how many people have died as a result, but if we were able to meet our target of an eight-minute emergency response time, survival rates would be greater."

Sick kept in ambulances in bed crisis - Times Online

[emkay64]

Hmmm...

 

I believe in getting what you work for absolutely. I don't agree with getting a free ride. I don't care about whether or not a person had the opportunity for education or whatever. I think that the rich should have luxuries if they earn them...that's all fine and dandy. To me though...just based on principles....I would want to help people that are sick or hurt. Just the same if I came across an accident or what have you I would not base whether I help out based on whether or not they could shell out some cash for me. There are a lot of people and children (who have no control) that cannot afford health insurance. I don't mind some socialism in this regard...at least I know where SOME of my taxes are going.

 

I don't mind paying into health care because we all need it. TJ is narrowing his view to waiting...I already said in at least three posts we HAVE to wait!!!! I said that already...I said we have problems, I said I'm sure some die in waiting rooms...I never discounted his preemie article I'm sure it happened. I'm saying BOTH have issues and that Canada has always taken care of us. I've never been to the states for medical procedures.

 

http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm

 

David Ambroz: The Health Insurance Industrial Complex

 

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs

 

(since we all need to discredit everyone's health care....good grief!)

 

TJ is unwilling to accept that I like it. That my personal examples are lies. It is apparently painful to his psyche that I could be okay with waiting a little...or putting someone more needy ahead of me. Sorry TJ...I just don't have a big problem here. Your sources are credible sure...but they don't reflect my experiences at all...nor my friends. I never once said we never wait for anything...sure we do...but when it counted we got the care we needed. If surgery is elective here you are going to wait. I guess maybe for some the wait time is a huge issue...but lots of people complain. Believe me if it was terrible I would complain...maybe I just don't think it's so bad. I'm disappointed that you feel my personal experiences are lies...but my experience is all I have to go on.

 

And...

 

as far as Taming of the Queue...a useless endeavor. I'm sure your government is guilty of many useless meetings and expenditures.

 

Anyways...I'm all through here...this got way drawn out when all I wanted to say was that it wasn't so bad here. I'm happy with it. I said specifically it isn't the greatest, it isn't perfect but I wanted some to acknowledge that both countries need some changes. As usual it's a full on attack and no one listens.

[timesjoke]

Didn't I cover that and answer that once before. Americans will still have the option of PRIVATE PRACTITIONERS who ONLY cater to the insured. It's as simple as that.

 

It gives people a reason to buy health coverage, and gives them a choice in their health care.

.

.

 

You tried to offer a fairy tale excuse but your wrong.

 

I covered your claim before and you dodged my point.

 

Insurance companies require a very wide stance to operate. The Government will remove about 95% of the customer base so there is no way a private insurance company will be able to survive, besides, where will the people go with their insurance anyway?

 

Canadians who won the right to have private insurance come to America, Americans do not have an America to run off to, there will not be enough private hospitals to survive the price wars (caused by the Government pressuring lower costs) to be able to stay in business.

 

 

Sure there will be a few still around to take care fo the "rich" but the middle class will not have an option other than the "free" system.

 

 

You missing the point of how a free enterprise system works Bender. The Government will be operating at a massive loss. They will be running trillions of dollars in the hole every year while private insurance companies must make a profit to stay in business. The disparity will be too large.

 

The only chance for private medical insurance to survive once America turnes to "free medical" care is for big global insurance companies to try and offer a group rate based on all the socialized medicine Nations banded together, but I doubt you could get enough people to all agree on the details.

 

 

 

Emkay,

 

The only issue I have from you is you downplaying how big the waiting times are. Even if your stories of never having to wait more than a week are true, that does not discount the factual reports I posted where even your suppreme court says your system is killing Canadians because of massive waiting times, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part can change what is reality.

 

Oh by the way, you can't upset me, your clearly not being honest so your just disreguarded by me by posting facts that prove your wrong.

 

You claim there is no safety net but I prove there is one with stories of how youre system is turning patients away to America for care they cannot provide....that is a safety net, but you can't admit it.

 

 

 

Oh yes, let me add my links are facts, yours are opinion pieces from people who "WANT" the free system, of course they are going to say what you want them to say.

 

The only thing keeping out medical ratings as an induntrial Nation down is illegal immegration that messes up our numbers. If you remove the illegals who are sick and die in America we have some of the best numbers in the World for quality of health.

[phreakwars]

If that's true, explain Australia.

.

.

[timesjoke]

Tiny population, no comparison.

[emkay64]

"Tiny population, no comparison."

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well...

 

Australia is 22 million in population.

 

Canada is 34 million in population...not that big of a diff lol ( according to TJ Canada is probably a medium population).

[phreakwars]

I remember back in my teens, I worked in a nursing home as an orderly caring for the elderly.

 

One of the residents, was named Emma. Emma came in as a welfare case, her care was provided by the state. I felt bad for Emma, her family hardly ever came to see her, she had nowhere to turn.

 

Then there was Howard... Howard the hardline Republican who preached about earning your own, and I don't need charity, and blah blah blah... Howard was Mr. money, he owned several houses and lots of farm land, and was worth over a million dollars. He of course, had to have a nice private room, payed for his own care, he didn't live off the system... Then one night during 3rd shift rounds, one of the NA's found him slumped over... ole Howard had a stroke. He was of course taken to the Hospital for a nice extended stay. When he came back, soon after, ole Howard had to sell a few of his property's to pay for the bills. He still had that private room, a few months later, ole Howard had yet another stroke, and of course more bills, and yet again, more wealth he had to, instead of give to his sons and daughters... sell.

 

Soon, Howard was ALSO a welfare case, he didn't get that private room anymore, he couldn't afford it, all that wealth (well over a million) that the old man had accumulated, was sucked dry within less then a year.

 

Such was the case with SEVERAL of the residents... some of them came from having home care they paid for, to nursing home.

 

What's sad is.... ONLY IN AMERICA, thanks to this attitude of not wanting to help one another, can we find people who have worked hard, who have contributed to society, and who have proven their worth... tossed into an unwanted system of welfare to care for them all because of medical bills.

 

One thing I always hated is to watch old people (mainly Republicans) crying their eyes out because they had to give it all up, they have nothing to pass down, all thanks to the selfish system of healthcare we have now. You guys might be happy with that in your party line towing and proclimations of self preservation that you think are so damn easy, but the day is gonna come, when you wished it didn't have to be that way, where your gonna look back and think "I HAD THE CHANCE TO VOTE FOR SOMETHING BETTER FOR MYSELF AND MY FUTURE" and you pissed it all away towing a party line motto.

 

A motto that has proven time and time again, that it is all horse .

 

Have a few open heart surgerys, get your bill, even with what you think is good insurance, then come back and tell me how easy it is for people. You have no sense of reality whatsoever.

.

.

[Chi]

I remember back in my teens, I worked in a nursing home as an orderly caring for the elderly.

 

One of the residents, was named Emma. Emma came in as a welfare case, her care was provided by the state. I felt bad for Emma, her family hardly ever came to see her, she had nowhere to turn.

 

Then there was Howard... Howard the hardline Republican who preached about earning your own, and I don't need charity, and blah blah blah... Howard was Mr. money, he owned several houses and lots of farm land, and was worth over a million dollars. He of course, had to have a nice private room, payed for his own care, he didn't live off the system... Then one night during 3rd shift rounds, one of the NA's found him slumped over... ole Howard had a stroke. He was of course taken to the Hospital for a nice extended stay. When he came back, soon after, ole Howard had to sell a few of his property's to pay for the bills. He still had that private room, a few months later, ole Howard had yet another stroke, and of course more bills, and yet again, more wealth he had to, instead of give to his sons and daughters... sell.

 

Soon, Howard was ALSO a welfare case, he didn't get that private room anymore, he couldn't afford it, all that wealth (well over a million) that the old man had accumulated, was sucked dry within less then a year.

 

Such was the case with SEVERAL of the residents... some of them came from having home care they paid for, to nursing home.

 

What's sad is.... ONLY IN AMERICA, thanks to this attitude of not wanting to help one another, can we find people who have worked hard, who have contributed to society, and who have proven their worth... tossed into an unwanted system of welfare to care for them all because of medical bills.

 

One thing I always hated is to watch old people (mainly Republicans) crying their eyes out because they had to give it all up, they have nothing to pass down, all thanks to the selfish system of healthcare we have now. You guys might be happy with that in your party line towing and proclimations of self preservation that you think are so damn easy, but the day is gonna come, when you wished it didn't have to be that way, where your gonna look back and think "I HAD THE CHANCE TO VOTE FOR SOMETHING BETTER FOR MYSELF AND MY FUTURE" and you pissed it all away towing a party line motto.

 

A motto that has proven time and time again, that it is all horse .

 

Have a few open heart surgerys, get your bill, even with what you think is good insurance, then come back and tell me how easy it is for people. You have no sense of reality whatsoever.

.

.

 

Amen to everything you and Emmy are saying, but it's all falling on deaf ears. You are dealing with senseless, stubborness. Some people have to learn the hard way.

[timesjoke]

Touching story, most likely made up or googled but again all of your arguements are on the 1%, you never once discuss the fact that the system worked even in your example of when the guy could afford his care he paid for it, when he could not afford his care, welfare took over.

 

I see your story as a real American success story of how once a person cannot provide for himself, American welfare kicks in to provide for someone who is truly needy......as it should do.

 

Do you think it would be any different in the Obama plan Bender? Those with money will try to find timly care because the Government plan will take too long and all their savings will be lost anyway. The 1% argument you offer will not change in any way.

 

 

Besides, the wealthy guy your talking about will just have 50% of his income takes from him when he dies by the Government anyway with the Obama plans right? The death tax where Obama feels once a person dies they should give 50% of their income to the Federal Government as a last massive tax?

 

 

 

 

And yes, 22 million and 33 million are not comparable to 310 million people. Sort of like trying to compare the operating cost of maintaining a mini van to transport 6 people every day to a bus needed to transport 40 people every day, it is completely different.

[emkay64]

Touching story, most likely made up or googled but again all of your arguements are on the 1%, you never once discuss the fact that the system worked even in your example of when the guy could afford his care he paid for it, when he could not afford his care, welfare took over.

 

I see your story as a real American success story of how once a person cannot provide for himself, American welfare kicks in to provide for someone who is truly needy......as it should do.

 

Do you think it would be any different in the Obama plan Bender? Those with money will try to find timly care because the Government plan will take too long and all their savings will be lost anyway. The 1% argument you offer will not change in any way.

 

 

Besides, the wealthy guy your talking about will just have 50% of his income takes from him when he dies by the Government anyway with the Obama plans right? The death tax where Obama feels once a person dies they should give 50% of their income to the Federal Government as a last massive tax?

 

 

 

 

And yes, 22 million and 33 million are not comparable to 310 million people. Sort of like trying to compare the operating cost of maintaining a mini van to transport 6 people every day to a bus needed to transport 40 people every day, it is completely different.

 

Absolutely...yet you chose it as a comparison to your own health care system. Honestly TJ don't you just want to slap yourself sometimes?

 

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org --

 

Wow..another person happy with the health care here. Must be a liar too...even though they do admit to some problems. I think a person living and using the system has more credibility than Government sponsored write ups or "studies" with money being the agenda. I don't gobble up everything the media feeds me. Studies are bull and unless you were there to see them performed...I'm not so sure they were conducted. Real experience is much more credible.

 

P.S. For all others replying...if you have anything positive to say about your country and the way it operates...it therefore must be lies-- TJism

[snafu]

Touching story, most likely made up or googled but again all of your arguements are on the 1%, you never once discuss the fact that the system worked even in your example of when the guy could afford his care he paid for it, when he could not afford his care, welfare took over.

 

 

Debating is fine but I don't see the point in calling her a liar. She's telling you what she sees and what's happened in her life. She lives there remember? I think she would know better than what you read on the net. Statistics are debatable and she agreed with you that there was a wait but she was fine with it for the most part. I agree with her that both systems could be reformed. Even as a conservitive I have a hard time with the concept of only the rich get health care. If I were to lose my job and I or a family member needed medical care and I didn't have insurance that would put me in the poor house for the rest of my life. Some changes need to be done but on the flip side I don't want goverment to take total control either.

[wez]

Debating is fine but I don't see the point in calling her a lier. She's telling you what she sees and what's happened in her life. She agreed with you that there was a wait.

 

Haven't you yet figured out that anyone who disagrees with TJ in any way is liar?

[phreakwars]

Touching story, most likely made up or googled

 

 

This is why you have no sense of reality, these are god damn REAL people I'm talking about fukker.

 

Made up or googled my ass. Yeah, get real. You'd like for things to be made up wouldn't ya? Just doesn't fit into your unreality.

 

Emma's full name is EMMA STEWART, Howards full name is HOWARD CHRISTIANSEN. They were resident's of David Place in David City Nebraska, it's a nursing home. Look em up if your so inclined.

 

That's one story of the MANY MILLIONS in America who go threw this same every day.

 

y fukks like you who think they have a plan, who think it can't happen to them, who look down at others and accuse them of living off the system, and toss them under the fukking rug. Did I mention after Howard lost his millions, his family, for some odd reason, never came to visit much afterwards.

 

And it isn't just elderly, it's people who are young and maybe had a car accident because some drunk driver hit them, or developed cancer, or an injury at work that not only made them lose everything the worked for, but put them in a position where they CAN'T do the things they were once great at.

 

Like I said fukker, the days gonna come and it's gonna happen to you, no party line towing or affiliation is gonna change it. And I can god damn guarantee your ass is gonna be out there crying to yourself going "WHY ME, WHY ME.. SOMEBODY HELP ME, IT'S NOT FAIR". The short answer will always be... because assholes like you wanted it that way because of your greed and selfishness to your fellow man.... CHRISTIANS MY ASS.

.

.

[phreakwars]

If I were to lose my job and I or a family member needed medical care and I didn't have insurance that would put me in the poor house for the rest of my life.

Being poor doesn't have a political affiliation. There is no reason in the world, that we as Americans should be the only country that can reduce a man to living in squaller because of medical bills. Where getting decent health care doesn't come with the condition of how much insurance you carry. Where our lives aren't played with by some claims adjuster behind a computer screen looking for reasons to deny us treatment because of a pre-existing condition. But most of all, our health should not be compromised by how much Blue Cross, or Aetna, or all the others profit when we pay them our hard earned dollars just to do that, protect our security and future. Put those fukkers out of business, I know I for one won't care.

 

What do we get in return from insurance companies who we put our trust in to make sure medical expenses don't put us on the street?

 

I'll tell you what we get in return for our cash. We get the benefit of these same fukkers buying off people like Chuck Grassley with campaign contributions to be "OUTRAGED" for even suggesting there is a better way. Yes, we pay for the insurance companies to screw us over and tell us it's in our best interest.

 

We have to watch as people lose their homes and their life savings and jobs, and get reduced to TJ's unfukking caring label of lazy or living off the system because this happened to them. But of course, he's more then happy to give them a can of fukking soup to help them get by.. it's the charitable thing to do.

 

It's so damn easy to say... well, they can just start over, I had to..

 

Well sure, who the hell hasn't lost all their and had to start over a couple times? I have.

 

But you tell that to a 50 year old man, who just lost a house he worked all his life for, who now has to take medication just to live (which he has no money to pay for), who can no longer work like he used to, who is swamped with medical bills up to his ass, to just go start over. That man should not have had to have lost everything in life, just to live.

 

No fukking sense of reality I tell ya.

 

.

.

[hugo]

Howard was a dumbass.

[timesjoke]

Debating is fine but I don't see the point in calling her a liar. She's telling you what she sees and what's happened in her life. She lives there remember? I think she would know better than what you read on the net. Statistics are debatable and she agreed with you that there was a wait but she was fine with it for the most part. I agree with her that both systems could be reformed. Even as a conservitive I have a hard time with the concept of only the rich get health care. If I were to lose my job and I or a family member needed medical care and I didn't have insurance that would put me in the poor house for the rest of my life. Some changes need to be done but on the flip side I don't want goverment to take total control either.

 

Look, even the Canadian suppreme court found the waiting lists are killing Canadians, am I to toss out their suppreme court rulings, all the studies, even their yearly "Taming of the Queue" meetings.

 

Every shread of fact down to many emergency patients having to be shipped to America because they cannot treat their own people all points to a massive problem in Canada with their health care system.........but Emkay says all that is wrong so we should listen to her instead of their suppreme court rulings?

 

Emkay is defending her system out of blind pride or something, but she is not being honest.

 

 

Medical waiting times are so bad medical travel has become a massive business in Canada. Companies have sprung up dedicated to setting up medical treatments in other Countries packaged with travel and hotels.....now why would these exist in massive numbers if there was no market for them to service?

 

 

So we have the Canadian suppreme court.

 

The Taming of the Queue conference every year.

 

Severe shortages of doctors estimated to be 10,000 short.

 

Severe shortages in nurses and special technicians like MRI operators.

 

Medical travel companies all over the place.

 

Patients being transferred to America because Canada cannot treat them.

 

 

 

The list goes on and on............But Emkay says there is no real problem. I am sorry but I seriously doubt the Canadian suppreme court would have found against the Government if everything was how Emkay describes it.

 

 

 

 

Snaf,

 

I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

[phreakwars]

Snaf,

 

I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

He's against a plan that helps the low class, undeserving poor scum.

 

Deny them, then he'll give it a thumbs up.

.

.

[timesjoke]

He's against a plan that helps the low class, undeserving poor scum.

 

Deny them, then he'll give it a thumbs up.

 

Where the hell do you get that from?

 

We already have existing programs that give all poor free medical care so no reason to do anything new to take care of them.

 

I was talking about where there is a gap in Ameirca and what I would gladly support to deal with that gap.

[phreakwars]

Well Mr. contradiction, explain yourself then.

 

You say "well, there is already a plan to help the poor", then say " if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them (middle class) I would gladly support that move".

 

So what's the problem here? That IS the plan, to help the middle class. Remember, the poor are already getting helped. You are implying either helping the middle class calls for cutting care for the poor, OR, that this same plan is unrealistic because the poor are included.

 

So which is it?

.

.

[ImWithStupid]

Every shread of fact down to many emergency patients having to be shipped to America because they cannot treat their own people all points to a massive problem in Canada with their health care system.........but Emkay says all that is wrong so we should listen to her instead of their suppreme court rulings?

 

Emkay is defending her system out of blind pride or something, but she is not being honest.

 

 

All I ever saw emkay do is explain her personal experience and that of people she knows.

[ImWithStupid]

Well Mr. contradiction, explain yourself then.

 

You say "well, there is already a plan to help the poor", then say " if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them (middle class) I would gladly support that move".

 

So what's the problem here? That IS the plan, to help the middle class. Remember, the poor are already getting helped. You are implying either helping the middle class calls for cutting care for the poor, OR, that this same plan is unrealistic because the poor are included.

 

So which is it?

.

.

 

TJ wasn't talking about the middle class. He said the target area was the not poor, but not quite middle class area.

[phreakwars]

And what's wrong with that? The middle class (you and I) can already afford insurance. An astonishing number fall below this, yet are not poor enough for subsidies. You SHOULD focus on these people.

.

.

[ImWithStupid]

And what's wrong with that? The middle class (you and I) can already afford insurance.

.

.

 

Nothing. That's what TJ said. If it was a program that just focused on that group, between the poor who get help already, and those who can afford it, he'd be for it.

 

You said he was contradicting himself, as if he was wanting to target the middle class and you said that's what this plan did. He didn't want to target the middle class but those between middle class and poor, so there wasn't a contradiction in his statement.

 

Just pointing that out.

[timesjoke]

Yes, what IWS said, let me post my statement again:

 

I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

 

I underlined the parts you ignored Bender.

 

I qualify my comment by saying the poor and middle class already have medical care. I would offer support for a plan that targets those who fall through the cracks only because that is all that is needed at this time. I see no reason to create a bigger system that overlaps existing medical coverages or is a element for removing existing coverages.