You're not buying this "competition" horsesh!t are you?

[phreakwars]

I will be removed again if I do what your doing, so if it is to be a one way flame fest from you, I will simply not reply when your doing such Bender.

Actually the reason you were removed both times, and IWS & Bob can back this up, is because of your constant interfering and questioning of the way we, meaning Bob, myself, and IWS, choose to administrate/moderate this site. And no other reason. You'll notice I get into spirited GF style (you had to be there) debate with Royal Orleans & IWS, both right wingers, if I felt so conceited about my power I wouldn't have knowingly asked a good right wing debater to be the site's moderator.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is, slam me if you feel like it, don't fear repercussion, just don't try and tell any of us how you think we should be running the site. That tends to be quite annoying and disrupting to everyone who is a proud member/ contributer.

 

I might rant on a liberal type rant, but don't accuse me of ever being biased. Hell, I was even thinking of tossing R.O. back into his old MOD position when and if we ever start picking up, just because I still respect his integrity. Doesn't matter his political views or what he wants to call me.

 

BTW hint: IRL I'm not REALLY so much the left wing loyalist that you might think.

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[timesjoke]

But you do not call it "the sky is falling" when Obama does it....why?

 

 

On the other part no thanks, you seem too ready to ignore rules for yourself and apply them only when it is favorable for you so I will simply avoid the flames with you, if you feel you have no other way to express yourself than to resort to calling me names then I will just refuse to answer you until you grow up.

[eddo]

The man doesn't need to feed anyone. He needs to create jobs. I've never claimed he was super man. But in order to create jobs, taxes need to be raised. It's a reality that Obama knows. Is not the title of this topic "GREAT HOPES FOR OBAMA FADE TO REALITY". The reality is, there is no way in HELL that he can possibly restimulate the economy without raising taxes.

 

I am curious how raising taxes would create jobs, Bender. I just don't see how that would make sense, so please enlighten me.

[phreakwars]

I don't when Obama does it, because he doesn't go and proclaim "THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN OR THAT IS GONNA HAPPEN" contrary to what you say. He simply explains the situation we are in, which you might interpret as "fear & paranoia" but isn't, then proceeds to explain what steps his administration is going to take to correct things. And honestly, that's all he CAN do. He can't make you agree or disagree with the path he wants to take, but people at least owe the guy enough confidence to trust in his judgment. Hey, we Democrats did it 100% for George Bush... well 90% not counting Sheehan and the rest of the super anti war liberal brigade. Sure he lost favor with the Democrats (and lots of Republicans) when all was said and done, but he did get the needed respect for his position and faith in his judgment by a vast majority of the population.... Enough to even get him re-elected.

 

If there wasn't a better signal that people were unhappy with conservative idealism, I'd have to say the most effective campaign smearing by Obama would HAVE to without a doubt, be associating McCain with Bush. It worked so well, you had REPUBLICANS thinking to themselves... Uh... no way, no, not another guy like Bush. That should have been the indicator right there who the country wanted to lead. NOT A REPUBLICAN. Personally, I wanted Edwards, despised Clinton, thought nothing of Obama. Thought for sure Hillary was gonna take it. Ever since then, it's been non stop rhetoric and conspiracys. Hell it's gotten so bad, I don't even consider GOP grips valid complaints anymore, I just chalk it up to yet another Obama conspiracy. Like this one from my local board.

 

U.S. politicians have given us unending debt, a real estate bubble disaster and a failed health care system. Now they want to mandate that all Americans must participate in the current failed sick-care system, and those who don't will be fined!

 

 

A U.S. Senate committee, you see, has just passed a sweeing new "health care reform" bill that has nothing to do with health, or reform, or caring. It's all about making the drug companies rich and keeping the corrupt health insurance companies in power. full feature story on this disastrous new health care reform bill here:

U.S. Senate Health Committee Passes Health Care Reform Bill that will Bankrupt America by Mike Adams the Health Ranger

 

WTF? Now Obama is working FOR the insurance companies and pharma to make them rich and rip us all off?

 

Just last week the conspiracy was that he was working against them and will drive them out of business. So which is it? Pick your Obama conspiracy and stick with it.

 

How about the other Rhetoric?

 

 

• 
  [ ]He bowed before a king
  [ ]His wife touched the queen
  [ ]He ordered mustard on his burger
  [ ]He's an elitist because he has nice shoes
  [ ]He was born in Kenya
  [ ]He's a Muslim
  [ ]His daughter wore a peace sign shirt
  [ ]and on and on....
  

 

People just get sick and tired of it. Nobody sees the guy as a damn Messiah, and he DOES have his critics on both sides. The Patriotic thing to do, would be to give the guy your confidence. Like I said in the chicken little analogy.. Chicken little went on and on about the sky falling, pretty soon everyone was in a panic about it, and soon afterwards, hysteria was abound.

 

The shiit has gotten crazy man. Tell me you haven't seen or heard of these morons talking about revolution and overthrowing the government and even impeachment for who knows the hell what. Calling people to arms and all kinds of crazy talk. How long will it be before we see yet another cop killed, or domestic terrorist attack perpetrated by nothing more then the equivalent of chicken little's screaming that the sky is falling and it's their patriotic duty to set things right?

 

Christ, the world we live in is NOT that god damn bad and it never will be. It would sure be alot better if people, if anything, AT LEAST exhibit a bit more confidence in our leadership. That IS why we elected them after all. They screw it all up, you toss em out on their ass. You don't do stupid shiit like claim he's not really President because a SCOTUS judge screwed up a line just because you don't like the guy.

 

It's those type of nitpicking complaints that cause the GOP party to lose any credibility.

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[ImWithStupid]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9_43nJVyKA]YouTube - Saving Healthcare[/ame]

[ImWithStupid]

I've heard you say the same crap about how Dems backed Bush, but I still need to know what Fukkin' planet you where on during the last decade, but it must not have been this one.

 

The only break he got, was a short time after 9/11. Before that, he wasn't the real President, because he stole the election.

 

After that he was fought by Dems on every fukkin' thing he did. Hell even Obama voted to cut off funding to the troops fighting in wars.

 

You must have either been high, or under a rock, to believe that Bush caught any breaks by the Dems, the left or the media.

[Guest NewsBot]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Barack Obama's assertion Wednesday that government will stay out of health care decisions in an overhauled system is hard to square with the proposals coming out of Congress and with his own rhetoric....

 

By CALVIN WOODWARD and JIM KUHNHENN

 

More...

[phreakwars]

I am curious how raising taxes would create jobs, Bender. I just don't see how that would make sense, so please enlighten me.

Because, it forces the guys who are getting the big bonuses to do something constructive with their profits. Sure they could raise costs or ship jobs over seas. But on the otherhand, what's another way to get out of them taxes? Lower your prices. Lowering your prices will increase demand, requiring you to hire more employees. You do get corporate tax breaks the more employees you have. Ever notice in the first few years that Clinton was in, companies were reporting lower then expected gains. This is because they were forced to reduce costs of their products even though material costs were higher. Eventually, more and more people could afford the products and sales picked up again. When sales picked up, more people had jobs. These companies were CERTAINLY not hurting, they didn't get as big of bonuses for each other as they do now, but they weren't on the verge of bankruptcy either.

 

Think of it like this... lets say I made $10,000 a year profit after material I have 10 employees who make 10 products sold at $1,000 each. The government says they are gonna tax me this huge amount unless I can write that off somehow. What happens then, is the government gives me a TAX BREAK that will cancel out that high tax, for every employee I pay and more for the ones I insure. Well, if I have 20 people working for me now, and I'm selling my product at a lower cost, the government can't slam me in the ass with this huge tax. Yeash, I don't get the yacht this year, but what has been done, is a better payoff for America. People are employed, my product is being sold at a lower rate, I'm still making a profit. When they got TAX CUTS, keeping employees was no longer an incentive, they could then afford to raise prices and pitch out a few employees on their ass. And that, friends, is called Corporatism, not Capitalism.

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[phreakwars]

I've heard you say the same crap about how Dems backed Bush, but I still need to know what Fukkin' planet you where on during the last decade, but it must not have been this one.

 

The only break he got, was a short time after 9/11. Before that, he wasn't the real President, because he stole the election.

 

After that he was fought by Dems on every fukkin' thing he did. Hell even Obama voted to cut off funding to the troops fighting in wars.

 

You must have either been high, or under a rock, to believe that Bush caught any breaks by the Dems, the left or the media.

His first 4 years he didn't, you just had a few conspiracy nuts claiming he didn't win (they still claim that). It was his last 4, more like his last 3, that he really lost the public's (notice I said public, not Democrats or Republicans) confidence.

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[ImWithStupid]

It's a fukkin' global economy. You can pack up your business and move to Ireland with a 15% corporate rate and still sell your here at cost.

 

Nothing is there to keep companies here, ask New York, California, Illinois, Ohio, etc...

 

Those companies packed up and went south and to the mid west to save on taxes.

 

That's why Appleton Electric came to Columbus from Illinois. Cheaper labor and lower taxes.

 

Taxes drives away jobs, period.

 

You can take the high tax route, but it's hard to tax a business that packed up and left you with an empty fukkin' building.

[ImWithStupid]

His first 4 years he didn't, you just had a few conspiracy nuts claiming he didn't win (they still claim that). It was his last 4, more like his last 3, that he really lost the public's (notice I said public, not Democrats or Republicans) confidence.

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Yea, some conspiracy nuts like the former Vice President.

 

Bull. The media never cut him a fukkin' break. He was criticized within less than a year of going into Iraq.

 

The media was against him the whole time. The only reason that he won in 2004 was that John Kerry was the best that the Dems could put up against him. Kerry was about as bad a candidate as Biden would have been.

[timesjoke]

I don't when Obama does it, because he doesn't go and proclaim "THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN OR THAT IS GONNA HAPPEN" contrary to what you say. He simply explains the situation we are in, which you might interpret as "fear & paranoia" but isn't, then proceeds to explain what steps his administration is going to take to correct things.

 

Bull, one example was the stimulus bill, he said it had to be signed before anyone had a chance to read or study it to save the economy and keep unemployment at 8%.

 

They did as he ordered and did we stay below 8% as he promised Bender? Was that not fear mongering to force everyone to sign a bill nobody understood?

 

 

Being as you dodged all my questions I will ask them again:

 

 

How about you address my point about increases in taxes being passed down to the "poor"?

 

How about you address how only the "rich" employ people.

 

How about you address how Government jobs do not make "new" dollars so they do nothing for the economy.

 

How about you address how lowering taxes actually increased taxes collected.

 

 

 

 

And your clearly not very smart when it comes to how business operates Bender, your little example is not possible in any Country. Do you have any idesa what it costs to hire a new employee? How much it costs to keep an employee? You say your opening your own business for the first time so your lack of knowledge in these areas is understandable to a certain degree but you have to be able to grasp the basic idea of "the cost of doing business".

 

I have my Masters but long before that in basic business classes we were drilled with the concept of "the cost of doing business".

 

Put simply, a business must account for every cost, everything from water bills to taxes are all rolled into the cost column of the ledger. All taxes are sent down the line to consumers. Every time you liberals/socialists tax the "rich" you really tax the poor instead through forcing higher prices or loss jobs, these days it is both.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, no Bush never had the support of the Democrats, still today many nuts still claim Bush planned 9/11. Bush was fought every single day by the Democrats.

[timesjoke]

Exactly!

 

I wasted an hour of my life watching his speach tonight and the softball questions the "media" (joke) asked him and I still have no idea what his plan is.

 

He has said over and over his very basic outline but what is being created is nothing like what he is claiming to the public. It is like Obama is playing the bait and switch with America.

 

 

Even tonight he said the plan will be "budget neutral" but every estimate shows a massive shortfall on funding so..........is this really change we can believe in?

 

 

 

Dishonesty, lies, partisan politics, closed door meetings where Obama refuses to say who he has been meeting with, secrecy, sham town hall meetings that are completely rehersed and coached, less transparency than the last 6 administrations, lobbyists on his cabinet, many of them with huge tax issues, the list goes on and on from the President who promised us a completely new kind of politics.

 

NEW?

 

Sounds exactly like the old politics to me.

[ImWithStupid]

I would comment, but I'm still in shock that this report came from an AP reporter.

[phreakwars]

You say so. Since we have a fillibuster proof, we'll see who was right eventually.

 

Like I said from the start. If the guy can pull off even getting us back to where Carter had us, he's doing a good job. If you don't have enough confidence in even that, then I'll meet ya at the soup line. One thing for sure.. the sky is NOT falling, the government isn't trying to control us. God damn conspiracy theorists.

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[ImWithStupid]

You say so. Since we have a fillibuster proof, we'll see who was right eventually.

 

Like I said from the start. If the guy can pull off even getting us back to where Carter had us, he's doing a good job. If you don't have enough confidence in even that, then I'll meet ya at the soup line.

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Filibuster resistent, not proof, and agian if we went back to Carter days you'd know it.

 

You are still just basing it on unemployment. Back then unemployment meant more. More families were single employment households.

 

Makes a big, fukkin' difference.

 

Be careful what you wish for. You want Carter like economy. Just wait. The only reason they won't let the CBO investigate the Fed, and saw how they are printing money and the Fed is buying it up as a scam game, is because we would be seeing double digit inflation and more than ten percent interest rates.

 

Again, be careful what you wish for. In fact if the numbers came out from the Fed and the treasury, the world would be on the yuan by now, not the dollar.

[timesjoke]

I see you still dodged my direct questions again......too hard for you?

 

 

Not conspiracy, truth, Obama did say we had to rush the stimulus to keep unemployment at 8%, how is his fear mongering any different Bender?

 

It is okay just because they are using any method available to pass what you feel is "social justice"? The ends justifies the means in your eyes?

[timesjoke]

I would comment, but I'm still in shock that this report came from an AP reporter.

 

True, but this is just in line with how many people in America are starting to wake up to the reality of Obama.

 

Many reporters have not been happy with the completely closed and controled way Obama has been treating them anyway. This is the first President who has shrugged them off and used their bosses to control what is reported and when.

 

 

The "sham" town hall meeting had many ready to blow a gasket so they have not liked Obama for a long time, but until now, they were not allowed to voice their frustrations with Obama on air.......suddenly in this small area, a couple reports are less than rosy perfection when speaking about Obama and this health care mess.......I wonder if we are seeing the start of the end with their star struck treatment of Obama?

 

 

It would make me feel much better if they would start to actually report the news and issues again.

[phreakwars]

Exactly!

 

I wasted an hour of my life watching his speach tonight and the softball questions the "media" (joke) asked him and I still have no idea what his plan is.

 

He has said over and over his very basic outline but what is being created is nothing like what he is claiming to the public. It is like Obama is playing the bait and switch with America.

 

 

Even tonight he said the plan will be "budget neutral" but every estimate shows a massive shortfall on funding so..........is this really change we can believe in?

 

 

 

Dishonesty, lies, partisan politics, closed door meetings where Obama refuses to say who he has been meeting with, secrecy, sham town hall meetings that are completely rehersed and coached, less transparency than the last 6 administrations, lobbyists on his cabinet, many of them with huge tax issues, the list goes on and on from the President who promised us a completely new kind of politics.

 

NEW?

 

Sounds exactly like the old politics to me.

Ya know TJ, for once I am going to have to agree with you... to a certain extent. And I'll tell you why. It's not that Obama's plan is a BAD one, but he is NOT being realistic and honest about coverage. Sure you could insure every man women and child in America. You can do it without long lines, rationing, all those bad things with the exception of one. The extent of coverage. Sure, your kid has a cough, needs some cough syrup and antibiotic, you could get by cheap. Cut your hand, free stitches are not an issue and a huge list that can go on and on of basic human care that can be cheap to provide. The problem is heart surgerys, kidney transplants, livers, etc.. The big lie he is telling the American people, is that they could get the same coverage as the senators and congressman. That just ain't gonna happen. (BTW, I watched too) He didn't exactly lie about it but he kind of talked his way around it. See, I can find fault's in the Messiah too...

 

He did this by saying he was working on a plan that is close to the same level then drifted a bit more by saying it wasn't about himself because he's the president and has Dr's around him.

 

Yeah, that's great and all, but he really should be a bit more honest with the American people about the level of coverage a public plan would offer.

 

As a supporter of public health care (not necessarily the Obama plan), I would expect that the same freebies that the welfare crowd now gets, should be the only coverage someone on public health gets. To expect Senator type level of health care is laughable at best.

 

If you followed along with what he said, he made a key point that I also agree with. If the insurance companies are offering better service, and have less of a burden on them with the number of claims they need to fullfill, they in turn, can lower their prices to the consumer, and even provide better coverage then they do now.

 

Remember the days of $1 prescriptions? Wouldn't that be great again? I know it wouldn't be no damn dollar, but cheaper. Not from the government, but your insurance that your paying for. Hey, I'm all for MY insurance companies making a profit too. My money for them means a better payout for my claim. If my insurance company didn't have to worry about the cough medicine or insulin, or antibiotic, and all these other basic health needs, they will be able to provide ME the consumer, with not only better coverage then the government plan, but better coverage then what I have now at a lower rate.

 

I think what's pissing these insurance companies off more, is the Democrats saying hey your gonna have to guarantee the coverage you promise. I think that's why we see a bunch of back door talk with the Dems and the Pharma/Insurance industry. Almost every one of them bastards in Washington suck ass with the insurance and pharma industry. They ain't gonna try THAT hard to make them comply with covering people.

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[phreakwars]

So, your complaint is about 8% and it went higher? What was Reagan's numbers during the same alloted time in office .vs promises? It's a failure because it went past 8%. No chance of a comeback, is that what your saying? How long has the stimulus been out now? I see what it is, you people are so wrapped up in calling him Messiah, that you expect him to work miracles in only a couple months. Nice try, Cry to me in 2012 when he faces legitimate judgment, then we'll talk about the plus benefits of the Republican candidate.

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[ImWithStupid]

The Obama Health Care, Reform...

 

Obama Camp Has Many Ties to Wife's Employer

 

By Joe Stephens

Washington Post Staff Writer

Friday, August 22, 2008; Page A01

 

A few years ago, executives at the prestigious University of Chicago Medical Center were concerned that an increasing number of patients were arriving at their emergency room with what the executives considered to be non-urgent complaints. The visits were costly to the hospital, and many of the patients, coming from the surrounding South Side neighborhood, were poor and uninsured.

 

Michelle Obama, an executive at the medical center, launched an innovative program to steer the patients to existing neighborhood clinics to deal with their health needs.

 

That effort, in time, inspired a broader program the hospital now calls its Urban Health Initiative. To ensure community support, Michelle Obama and others in late 2006 recommended that the hospital hire the firm of David Axelrod, who a few months later became the chief strategist for Barack Obama's presidential campaign

 

Axelrod's firm recommended an aggressive promotional effort modeled on a political campaign -- appoint a campaign manager, conduct focus groups, target messages to specific constituencies, then recruit religious leaders and other third-party "validators." They, in turn, would write and submit opinion pieces to Chicago publications.

 

One key recommendation from Axelrod's firm: "Respond quickly to opposition activity."

The medical center's initiative provides a window into the close relationship between the Obamas, their associates at the University of Chicago and Axelrod, the strategist most central to Barack Obama's rise. It also illustrates how that circle, and particularly Michelle, dealt with an intractable social problem that confronts many urban areas: How much care should large, nonprofit hospitals offer the poor in return for tax-exempt status?

 

The medical center markets its initiative as an effort to improve patient health for the poor and at the same time free its resources for emergencies and complicated procedures. The Urban Health Initiative also could save the hospital substantial amounts of money, by removing the nonpaying poor patients from its emergency room.

 

"An ER visit for something that's not an emergency costs the medical center $1,200," said Kelly Sullivan, a hospital spokeswoman. "That's sucking up dollars in health care that we don't all have to just blow through carelessly.

 

"Michelle inspired us . . . to step back and take a holistic approach to this problem."

 

Those involved in the effort in Chicago say that they are hopeful but that it is too soon to judge its success.

 

Michelle Obama and Axelrod did not respond to requests for an interview about the initiative. Axelrod's partner, Eric Sedler, confirmed his firm did the work but declined to discuss specifics. Hospital executives declined to say how much Axelrod's firm was paid.

 

Obama Camp Has Many Ties to Wife's Employer - washingtonpost.com

 

Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, David Axelrod, patient dumping plan to save costs at the hospital that gave Michelle Obama a huge salery, for a plan that was illegal under Ronald Reagan.

[ImWithStupid]

Bender, He lied about transparency, He lied about Iraq, He lied about the Stimulus Bill to pass it, He continues to lie about Executive office power, He lied about Bi-partisanship, He lied about lobbyist in his administration, He lied about etc...

 

He has lied about damn near everything, and damn near everything he has said has been proven to be a lie or wrong.

 

The only place he's maintaining his poll numbers on is Iraq and Afghanistan and he is keeping the Bush policies there.

 

What does that say?

[ImWithStupid]

I have one question for you Bender before you believe that he is going to give the American people the same plan as the President, Congress or the Senate, what do you think that plan is?

[phreakwars]

What I'm getting from that, is that she made it so that people who were coming into the ER for non medical treatment, were sent off to another place that could handle non emergency care. But I guess if you want to make an issue/conspiracy of it and call it evil because she was saving the Hospital money, clearing up the ER for more vital service, and saving taxpayers money, then feel free. I'm sure you'll find some way to say it all links up with the hospital insurance providers, something about Chicago politics, an implication that Obama is corrupt, an Elitist, and a member of the Crips, or something to that effect. Somehow, it will all tie into the current debate topic in America... health care.

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[phreakwars]

I told you, he CAN'T give that same plan to Americans... impossible. I think if he were more honest and realistic about what COULD be offered, he'd gain more ground. He's killing himself off with both Dems and Republicans.

 

I don't think he lied to anybody, he's just faced with the reality that it can't be done the way he thinks.

 

Honestly, I don't think having Republican votes are the issue. I think what it is, is he wants the Republicans to get off their ass and contribute into a plan rather then try to pass off some poorly designed plan like they did, or pout like they usually do. I'm thinking what he wants to do, is get Republicans on board not to get it passed, but to garner support for a proposal from the public.

 

What I fear, is if the Republicans DON'T get their ass on board, the plan will fail even if it is good because it will be rejected by the public.

 

Least that's what I think.

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