ImWithStupid Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 You can only freep an online poll... [attach=full]2461[/attach] Quote
phreakwars Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 You can only freep an online poll... [attach=full]2462[/attach] Yeah, your right... from that SAME link you got this image from Pollster.com: Summing Up The New Health Care Polls (and a New Chart) 2) Reactions to detailed descriptions - Three organizations have provided longer descriptions of the key elements of the sort of plan that Obama and the Democrats support and asked samples of adults for their reactions. Oh look, a poll question for people who are ACTUALLY INFORMED about the plan. [attach=full]2463[/attach] . . Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
ImWithStupid Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 Yeah, your right... from that SAME link you got this image from Pollster.com: Summing Up The New Health Care Polls (and a New Chart) 2) Reactions to detailed descriptions - Three organizations have provided longer descriptions of the key elements of the sort of plan that Obama and the Democrats support and asked samples of adults for their reactions. Oh look, a poll question for people who are ACTUALLY INFORMED about the plan. [attach=full]2464[/attach] . . ...and you left out the part showing that as people actually get more informed of what is in the reform, the less they like it... Also note that the NBC/Wall Street Journal poll has asked the same question three times since April. The find a level of support that has remained consistent, but gradually increasing opposition (from 33% to 38% since April). Bad time for a month long recess so people can actually see how much fedzilla wants to screw them. No wonder Obama wanted it done before Congress went on break and the people could get informed. Quote
phreakwars Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 Yeah and your ASSUMING they asked the exact same people the question... nice try. Just keep believing that the 365 electorals that voted for him on the premise of offering public health are against the plan. Maybe you can go join the freepers as they skew some more online polls to convince themselves things aren't as they seem. Which brings me to ANOTHER point, you are ALSO assuming the polls from those images were NOT taken by online survey. . . Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
ImWithStupid Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 Yeah and your ASSUMING they asked the exact same people the question... nice try. Just keep believing that the 365 electorals that voted for him on the premise of offering public health are against the plan. Maybe you can go join the freepers as they skew some more online polls to convince themselves things aren't as they seem. Which brings me to ANOTHER point, you are ALSO assuming the polls from those images were NOT taken by online survey. . . Same questions on the poll. Shouldn't matter in a statistical sample. As for the electoral votes, you yourself admitted he lied to get the votes and is far more radically left than he lied about to the voters who were too stupid to see between the lines. The difference between Obama and Ron Paul. Ron Paul had the honor and integrity to be who he is. Whereas, Obama is a typical leftist/stateist without integrity or moral turpitude and a radical that is willing to lie, cheat, deceive, whatever it takes to get his way. Never freeped anything in my life. Won't even vote on the local paper board's poll more than once. No, I didn't assume anything. If any of this made any kind of political or economic sense, I would reply further. Quote
timesjoke Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 Hell I keep asking Bender what "change" Obama has brought to the office of President and he has never answered the question. Obama was elected based on his promise of "change". In general, most average people hate the tone of Washington so Obama promising to change how things are done in Washington was what got him elected, not any one policy. Obama is dropping fast in the polls because more and more people are seeing the real Obama who is 100% partisan, 100% exactly like every other Washington politician who has ever held the job of President. Sad really, the dream Obama sold people to get elected was actually a very good thing, "real" change in attitudes is needed, not more blind partisan politics. Quote
phreakwars Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 He did bring change. We no longer have "BLIND PARTISAN POLITICS". Considering the congressmen, lobbyist, and insurance companies who are spewing propaganda lies to their constituents, I'd say the partisan politics are pretty god damn obvious. . . Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
snafu Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 He's not going to get away with this one. Come hell or high water conservitives will fight this one. Quote "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws. That's just insane!" Penn & Teller NEVER FORGOTTEN
phreakwars Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 He's not going to get away with this one. Come hell or high water conservitives will fight this one.Getting back on the topic of abortion, thank you,... like I said before, it's a bargaining chip. And an obvious one at that.. A sneaky, underhanded bargaining chip, but still a bargaining chip. At least it would be... IF... brace yourself...... It wasn't YET ANOTHER propaganda lie fed to the media and to the masses. Yes, rest easy snafu, because you are being LIED to yet again by Republicans. Sorry to have to break that news. YET ANOTHER scare tactic... oddly enough, this horse LIE was even picked up by JustBS's very own (right wing) BOT. Sure had even ME convinced there for a bit. Ever heard of the Hyde Amendment? Hyde Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia And if THAT isn't enough... read these transcripts. 'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Tuesday, August 4 - Hardball with Chris Matthews- msnbc.com REAL QUICK EXCERPT MATTHEWS: And number two, no abortion...BOXER: What's... MATTHEWS: No abortion's going to be paid for by the health care bill, is that correct? No abortion is going to be subsidized by the health care bill? BOXER: Yes because the Hyde Amendment is still in play and will continue to be in play. So all of this is a diversion by the people who want to, frankly, hurt President Obama. You've heard the Republican senator Jim DeMint say it, Let's make this Obama's Waterloo. Let's break him. Ya know, I just gotta say.. JESUS H. CHRIST !! TJ and IWS wanna try feeding me this BS about how people are "REALLY FINDING OUT" about the health care plan and that's why it's support is slipping.... OH REALLY? All indicators show just the opposite.... more and more people are being fed LIES about it and are thus, no longer supporting it... Exhibit A http://Off Topic Forum.com/on-topic-bs/36424-govt-insurance-would-allow-coverage-for-abortion.html#post105374 The IRONIC thing here, is these same a$$holes that know NOTHING about what is REALLY in the health care plan, are the same ones screaming at these town hall meetings "read the bill, read the bill" to their congressmen. Yeah, PRACTICE WHAT YOU FUKKING PREACH !! . . Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
timesjoke Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 The IRONIC thing here, is these same a$ that know NOTHING about what is REALLY in the health care plan, are the same ones screaming at these town hall meetings "read the bill, read the bill" to their congressmen. . . So that would include every Liberal including Obama because every time a specific question is asked nobody has an answer. Every townhall meeting including the fake one ABC did that was more infomercial has Obama avoiding specifics...... Nobody knows 100% what is in this mess. Quote
ImWithStupid Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 Getting back on the topic of abortion, thank you,... like I said before, it's a bargaining chip. And an obvious one at that.. A sneaky, underhanded bargaining chip, but still a bargaining chip. At least it would be... IF... brace yourself...... It wasn't YET ANOTHER propaganda lie fed to the media and to the masses. Yes, rest easy snafu, because you are being LIED to yet again by Republicans. Sorry to have to break that news. YET ANOTHER scare tactic... oddly enough, this horse LIE was even picked up by JustBS's very own (right wing) BOT. Sure had even ME convinced there for a bit. Ever heard of the Hyde Amendment? . . Other than Boxer saying so, how do we know the Hyde Amendment will stay in effect? I'm just asking. Personally, I think Medicaid should fund abortions. Quote
timesjoke Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 Other than Boxer saying so, how do we know the Hyde Amendment will stay in effect? I'm just asking. Personally, I think Medicaid should fund abortions. lol, the Hyde amendment, so why even have the part about abortions if the liberals know that the hyde amendment would stop it? I believe their hiding their true intent behind the hyde amendment, it is smoke and mirrors, as usual from the Obama administration. Obama is not just partisan, he is so radical and socialist he is even scaring many Democrats.......remember how excited they were when they got "Filibuster-Proof Majority"? Now they are saying they will leave the blue dogs behind with the Republicans and pass this without them as well. The American people are mostly against this garbage. The Blue Dogs are mostly against this garbage. The Republicans are against this garbage. The independants that got Obama elected are against this garbage. The only people who actually want this legislation is a tiny minority of voters and the wacko socialists in public office who refuse to listen to the people. Quote
phreakwars Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 So WHERE IS THIS alleged plan for abortion in the plan then? Come on.. EVERYBODY CHANT just like the Astro-turfers!! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! . . Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
phreakwars Posted August 7, 2009 Posted August 7, 2009 lol, the Hyde amendment, so why even have the part about abortions if the liberals know that the hyde amendment would stop it? What the matter TJ, don't wanna admit your own party is LYING to people to frighten the hell out of them? No wonder you have so many damn people angry at these town halls. The question you REALLY need to ask, is not how your gonna spin it into YET ANOTHER Obama conspiracy, but who is ACTUALLY benefiting from giving out this propaganda. Who would stand to win by terrifying old people and pissing off Republicans with claims of government funded abortions? Maybe if you actually figured it out, you'd see how much Republicans are getting fukking PLAYED by the system of corrupt insurance companies and pharma to side with them. It's almost SAD really, getting conned by these SOB's to protest against your own best interests. WHEN ARE REPUBLICANS GONNA WAKE UP? READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! . . Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
snafu Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 .... READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! READ THE BILL !! . . I hope they give everybody a chance to read the bill instead of shoving it down our throats like the stimulus package. Quote "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws. That's just insane!" Penn & Teller NEVER FORGOTTEN
phreakwars Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 I hope they give everybody a chance to read the bill instead of shoving it down our throats like the stimulus package.Here's the thing, they ARE trying to do that. Obviously they can't go over all 1000+ pages of it in one sitting, If you want to even TRY and attempt to read it, you can find it here: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf So far I've read 480 some pages, yes I admit I haven't read the entire thing myself, but I AM at least reading it to see what it's saying. I'm not hanging out over on Daily Kos or listening to Kieth Olbermen, I'm actually reading it here and there over the last few weeks. But then again, the first 500 pages are the pages I was interested in... What I learned was VERY interesting indeed. Have you gotten one of those E-mails yet that talks about all this alleged crap that is in the bill? Goes something like this: Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!! Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!! Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice! PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued! Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN). Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control. PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare! PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed -PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make. Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families. Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay) Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans. PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing! Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions. Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u. Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own. Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!! Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!! Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone? PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory! PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order. PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!? Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN? PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs WOW !! Now THAT is alot to take in, sounds pretty damn frightening to me... but DOES it actually say these things? I'll take a RANDOM one... uh lets say.... Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!! Hmm, lets see what it says..., it says21 © REQUIREMENTS RELATING TO COST-SHARING 22 AND MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE.? 23 (1) NO COST-SHARING FOR PREVENTIVE SERV 24 ICES.?There shall be no cost-sharing under the es 25 sential benefits package for preventive items and 1 services (as specified under the benefit standards), 2 including well baby and well child care. 3 (2) ANNUAL LIMITATION.? 4 (A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.?The cost-shar5 ing incurred under the essential benefits pack6 age with respect to an individual (or family) for 7 a year does not exceed the applicable level spec8 ified in subparagraph (B). 9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.?The applicable 10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is 11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a 12 family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded 13 to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year 14 by the annual percentage increase in the Con 15 sumer Price Index (United States city average) 16 applicable to such year.Get all that? What that means to me when I read it, is the government will offer different types of packages for public health (don't insurance companies already do this?) This would be for people who can't afford health care but want basic service. It gives you $5,000 (more then what the average homeless person needs) for care each year, increasing with the CPI. If you keep reading on, you'd realize that there are other levels of coverage that will be available as well. That's rationing? Here's another: Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get. Looks to me more like it says there will be a committee that will decide what treatments will be offered under the different plans. Another: PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise Well, lets look at that.SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE. 22 (a) IN GENERAL.?Except as otherwise explicitly per 23 mitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations con 24 sistent with this Act, all health care and related services 25 (including insurance coverage and public health activities) 1 covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to 2 personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of 3 high quality health care or related services. 4 (b) IMPLEMENTATION.?To implement the require 5 ment set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health 6 and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after 7 the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such 8 regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that 9 all health care and related services (including insurance 10 coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act 11 are provided (whether directly or through contractual, li 12 censing, or other arrangements) without regard to per 13 sonal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high 14 quality health care or related services.So where's that line about illegal aliens? continued.... Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
phreakwars Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 This topic here for instance... like I said before, even fooled ME for a bit. At first I thought.... yeah, damn, playing hardball now, throw in government funded abortions.... But then I thought about it some more. I thought, well, I guess it could be in the bill, I haven't read it ALL yet, but it IS listed in a news site so it must be true... then I thought about it even more, and I realized.... HEY WAIT A MINUTE, that's just frikken CRAZY. NO WAY would they try throwing something like that in there, that would draw away too many people on both the right and the left. It would NEVER pass. That's when I got suspicious and checked into it. turns out I was VERY correct to be suspicious. That wording simply DOES NOT exist, it never did, was never even considered. So think about that for a moment... Do I blame a right winger? Hmm, most likely, but one needs to be more specific. Obviously this was meant to stir up emotions in Republicans and those on the left who are pro-life.... why? And the query I LOVE to run with... "QUE BONO" Who benefits from pissing all these people off, who benefits from scaring the living hell out of seniors with crap like Euthanasia talk, or benefits cut? When I see the town hall videos, first and foremost, I see astro-turf led chaos to disrupt whichever congressman it is from answering question, you can't deny that, but what I ALSO see, a very emotional, worked up, scared to death, frenzied older folks getting words like SOCIALISM and NAZI tossed at them, they are screaming and yelling about things that aren't even REAL or part of the bill. So again, I ask... who benefits? Could it be this middle man between my Dr. and myself called the insurance companies who handle the premiums I pay them, give huge bonuses to themselves, and deny people coverage or deny claims? That in itself is a VERY nice little racketeering scheme they got going on. So why should I trust the government, what have THEY ever done for me? Well first of all, I trust the government because they work for me, they are non profit, so that means my health won't depend on 1st quarter sales expectations, and they already run a health care program. The same one TJ's son has the benefit of using. Interesting it is, that the main job sector that is hiring right now... actually, the ONLY sector.... is the health care industry. Dr's, nurses, orderly's, you name it. Obviously doing something like spending a stimulus into educating our youth would be to our advantage. A single payer plan would simply be a pool of money we are paying in to keep each other healthy, as outlined above, there are different proposed levels. One for the subsidies crowd, one for the lower wage earners, and one for the middle class... IN ADDITION, you have your regular private options. There is ALOT to learn about the entire plan, and the more people actually READ THE BILL, the more it will all make sense. I just wish the sellout crowd like the blue dog bastard in my state who took the payoffs come to their damn senses and reach a bi-partisan agreement. One things for sure... I am SICK AND TIRED of the propaganda lies. . . Quote https://www.facebook.com/phreakwars
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